I've noticed recently that my machine seems to be running a bit hotter than usual, at least according to VIA Hardware Monitor and SiSoft Sandra. At least, the power supply is apparently generating more heat than it used to. It used to run at anywhere between 100 to 120 degrees F, but right now it's at 131 degrees F (55 degrees C). Perhaps not coincidentially, I've been having problems with system freezes for the last week or so, in fact, more freezes in the last week than I've had in the past six months. I am a little worried that my PS (an Antec TruePower 430W) might be beginning to crap out on me, to be candid. I have a lot of fans going - two in the PS, the CPU fan, an 80mm case fan (I installed a new one today and set it up to blow air into the system; there's space for a 70mm fan immediately below it, if I can find one), a turbine-style blower/exhaust unit in one of the expansion slots (I think it may need replacing, I noticed when I powered up the machine with the side cover off that the fan on that unit was spinning somewhat sluggishly) and a dual-fan blower/exhaust unit in one of the 5.25" drive bays. I'm not sure what I can try beyond replacing the turbine blower, getting a 70mm case fan and maybe getting a new PS, but I'm perturbed because I had expected the Antec to last longer than the ten months or so it's been since I installed it. Your thoughts?

P.S. I should add that I did a thorough cleaning out of the system with compressed air last week, there was quite a lot of dust to be blown away. I also pulled the RAM and cleaned out the slots with compressed air and cleaned the contacts in case it was a memory-related problem, in fact I even took the sticks to be tested today but they're both OK. And for the record, the 12V leg of my PS is currently reading out at 11.95V most of the time, the 3V and 5V legs seem to be operating at rated specs.

P.P.S. The CPU is actually running _cooler_ than the chassis, according to VIA Hardware Monitor. Right now, it's at 45 C (113 F), while the system / PS readout shows 55 C (131 F). That's somewhat noteworthy, it's usually the reverse - the CPU being hotter than the system chassis.

First and Foremost check the air flow.

To include all the air intake holes

You should have more air intake than exhaust
Fresh cool air is the answer

I have used a clear Plexiglas sheet to cover the side of a few cases
Then allowed smoke to enter the case and show me what is happening
( having contacts in theater group helps with the smoke )

Originally posted by joea64
The CPU is actually running _cooler_ than the chassis, according to VIA Hardware Monitor. Check to see if you can read the temperatures in the BIOS. I have a feeling the monitor program is reporting them in the reverse order.

Where is the 80mm case fan located? I believe the common practice is to have it blow out if it is located on the back panel, in if it located on the front of the case.

I agree - previously, I think just about _all_ the fans were set to exhaust. That's why I installed the new 80mm fan I got today so that it would blow air _into_ the chassis. I'm going to go try to find a 70mm fan that I can put below the 80mm fan; the way the case is built, I can't put two 80mm fans into the back. As I mentioned, the turbine exhaust/blower unit in the expansion slot doesn't seem to be working quite right, so I might replace that unit as well.

Originally posted by Reid
Check to see if you can read the temperatures in the BIOS. I have a feeling the monitor program is reporting them in the reverse order.

Where is the 80mm case fan located? I believe the common practice is to have it blow out if it is located on the back panel, in if it located on the front of the case.

Just rebooted to check the BIOS. The monitor program is correct; the system temperature (which SiSoft Sandra indicates to mean the power supply temperature) is 131 F (55 C), CPU is 113 F (45 C).

The 80mm case fan is mounted in the back, directly under the PS. As I mentioned, there's space for an additional 70mm fan under the 80mm fan. The case allows for front-mounting fans but I would probably have to take off the front of the case to get at it. (Either that or pull the HD's so I could work in the front.) If it's _really_ a bad idea to have the intake in the back, then I'll move it, but I do need to get more air intake somehow. I'll go to Best Buy tomorrow and see if they have turbine units like the one in my expansion slot, that allows for exhaust and intake both.

Originally posted by joea64

the system temperature (which SiSoft Sandra indicates to mean the power supply temperature) is 131 F (55 C), CPU is 113 F (45 C).
Does your power supply have a temperature monitor output? I have a TruePower 480, and the only monitoring output is the fan tach. System temperature, as far as I know, is just the ambient air temperature inside the case. I still think something may be wrong with the temeperature sensor(s), because it would be a pretty good trick to make your CPU run cooler than the air temperature blowing on it.

Originally posted by Reid

Does your power supply have a temperature monitor output? I have a TruePower 480, and the only monitoring output is the fan tach. System temperature, as far as I know, is just the ambient air temperature inside the case. I still think something may be wrong with the temeperature sensor(s), because it would be a pretty good trick to make your CPU run cooler than the air temperature blowing on it.

The TruePower 430 has a 3-pin connector that's intended, according to the manual, to be connected to the fan connector on the motherboard, but its main purpose is to monitor the fan _speed_, not the temperature. I have the 80mm case fan previously mentioned hooked up to that connector, and have one of the two "fan only" connectors still free. I don't find anything in the fan manual about temperature monitoring. I have to admit that I wish I'd checked the temperatures more regularly, because I hadn't done that until problems started cropping up from last Saturday on; before then, the system had been quite stable.

It _might_ be at least partially software-related, because I installed Netscape 7.02 a couple of weeks ago, and most of the freeze-ups I have had have occurred when Netscape 7 was active, either in the background or as the active window. I have re-installed NS 6.2.2 and that seems, so far, to be working better. (No, I don't particularly want to go to the most current version of IE because I don't really care that much for IE.)

What brand and speed CPU does it have? It might give an idea about the amount of heat the cooling has to deal with.

The reason I was dwelling on what temperature might be what, is that I thought maybe the heat sink got bumped while you moved things inside and it may not be making good contact with the CPU, but if the lower temperature indication really is the CPU, then I am stumped.

Originally posted by Reid
What brand and speed CPU does it have? It might give an idea about the amount of heat the cooling has to deal with.

The reason I was dwelling on what temperature might be what, is that I thought maybe the heat sink got bumped while you moved things inside and it may not be making good contact with the CPU, but if the lower temperature indication really is the CPU, then I am stumped.

System specs are in my signature (see below). Athlons always tend to run hot, but the current temp is well within the usual range that it's been operating at since I put it in last June. I'm using a Dr. Thermal TI-V77 heatsink/fan combo. I did think about the possibility that the HFC might have come loose, but if it had, I think the CPU would have been destroyed outright within minutes if not seconds after boot in which case I obviously wouldn't be typing this. Right now, I'm back at thinking that maybe something arcane has gone wrong with the PS, possibly one or both of the fans. The exterior fan (the one that exhausts air from the system) is spinning at what looks like its usual rate but when I put my hand up to it I don't detect much air movement. On the other hand, there _are_ several other fans blowing hot air out, especially the blower unit installed in the top 5.25" bay. I can feel the air easily from that blower and it's quite warm, so hot air _is_ being expelled from the case even if the PS fans aren't working right.

I have an ECS K7S5A (among others) with an AMD XP 1800+. I think it runs 44C system temp, 54C CPU temp on a warm day. It is hotter today because the A/C broke and it is in the hottest room. It is 97F outdoors, 92F inside. While running it, the case was noticeably warm, but the TruePower exhaust fan was running at a leisurely pace, and likewise, did not feel like much airflow.

Originally posted by Reid
I have an ECS K7S5A (among others) with an AMD XP 1800+. I think it runs 44C system temp, 54C CPU temp on a warm day. It is hotter today because the A/C broke and it is in the hottest room. It is 97F outdoors, 92F inside. While running it, the case was noticeably warm, but the TruePower exhaust fan was running at a leisurely pace, and likewise, did not feel like much airflow.

I'm having some problems with my A/C system myself, though I hope to get it fixed soon, but it's not a major issue at this point because it's been an unusally cool and rainy May here in my area (although I've got a room fan on at the moment). I can tell you, though, that, adding to the peculiarity of this whole situation, the case doesn't feel particularly hot to the touch, not even the area surrounding the power supply. This is especially odd because, previously, I've checked that same area and found it warmer (though not _hot_) to the touch than the rest of the case. At this time, 10:01 pm Eastern, when I think the temp is about 60 degrees outside and 70 degrees inside (maybe I should look into a dehumidifier or something?), the CPU temp reads out as 114 F (46 C) and system temp is steady at 131 F (55 C). The CPU fan is at 5285 RPM and the case fan, the new one I installed today - which is a high-performance unit - is at 4818 RPM. The previous case fan always averaged about 2700 - 2900 RPM, for the record. Note that the new case fan is putting air into the system instead of exhausting it. The 12v leg of the PS is fluctuating moderately between 11.95 V and 12.01 V, the 3v and 5v legs are rock-steady at 3.30 V and 5.03 V respectively. Everything seems to be operating properly at this point...

Do you have a small thermometer that you could put in the case for a while, then compare it to the monitor reading?

Just for another comparison, I am running an AMD XP at 1666MHz downstairs with just a single fan power supply and an 80mm exhaust fan. With the room temperature of 81 degrees, the system is 36C, CPU 47C.

Your climate sounds nice to me while I sit here in the Mojave Desert. It is almost 7:30 p.m. and outside it is 88F.

Your 12V is well within specification.

If it's _really_ a bad idea to have the intake in the back, then I'll move it, but I do need to get more air intake somehow.
Since your PSU fan is pumping warm air out the back I would caution rear intake.

It sounds like you've a number of fans running off the Motherboard headers. Under the advice of Rick some time ago I picked up some adapters that allow me to connect to the tach line, but connect directly to the 12v PSU rail.

http://www.kdcomputers.com/eui/prime/profile/806/66/component.htm

Have you lapped the heatsink?

http://overclockersclub.com/heatsinklappingguide.php

You might want to consider one of the new Thermaltake Modding ducts A1442 at NewEgg. drdan just responded to a recent post noting that his temps dropped 2-3 degrees.

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=129462#post129462

Originally posted by Whyzman

Since your PSU fan is pumping warm air out the back I would caution rear intake.

It sounds like you've a number of fans running off the Motherboard headers. Under the advice of Rick some time ago I picked up some adapters that allow me to connect to the tach line, but connect directly to the 12v PSU rail.

http://www.kdcomputers.com/eui/prime/profile/806/66/component.htm

Have you lapped the heatsink?

http://overclockersclub.com/heatsinklappingguide.php

You might want to consider one of the new Thermaltake Modding ducts A1442 at NewEgg. drdan just responded to a recent post noting that his temps dropped 2-3 degrees.

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=129462#post129462

Actually, I've only got one fan running off the motherboard header - the case fan - and the others are running off various power lines attached directly to the PS. Nonetheless, I think I have one of those adapters you mentioned - I actually picked up 2 80mm fans today, but since the lower fan slot in the back of the case will only take a 70mm, I wasn't able to put in the second one - but anyway, the other fan, a CoolerMaster ball-bearing unit, had one of those adapters, or something very similar. (Just looked at it - it doesn't have that 3-to-4 pin connector, but it does have what I think is the fan tach cable). I will look at the modding duct and see if that meets my needs. I've never attempted lapping the heatsink, I think I might have to take it in to a shop and get somebody to help me with that because I'm not entirely sure I'm up to that particular task.

Originally posted by Reid
Do you have a small thermometer that you could put in the case for a while, then compare it to the monitor reading?

Just for another comparison, I am running an AMD XP at 1666MHz downstairs with just a single fan power supply and an 80mm exhaust fan. With the room temperature of 81 degrees, the system is 36C, CPU 47C.

Your climate sounds nice to me while I sit here in the Mojave Desert. It is almost 7:30 p.m. and outside it is 88F.

Your 12V is well within specification.

I'll look into that. Where would I get a small thermometer that could fit into the system?

Seeing that my 12V leg is within specs, and considering Whyzman's post (Whyzman, do you have an idea why the system is reporting system temp as being higher than CPU temp if there's only one fan attached to the MB header?), I'll have to consider something else as the potential cause. As you can see, everything still appears to be in proper working order.

Lapping is really quite easy. A piece of glass for the flat surface works just fine. I just pick up the 320, 400, 600, and 1500 wet/dry sandpaper. Can be had at most hardware stores. I do it in figure 8s with very little downward pressure and enough water on the paper just to keep it wetted.

Starting with the 320 you will see rather quickly where the high points are and you then know you're headed to take them out...

As an aside, no need to requote entire posts...;)

Originally posted by joea64
Where would I get a small thermometer that could fit into the system?An auto parts store may have small thermometers that are made to stick on a dashboard, or one of the probe types for air conditioning checks (don't know their upper range). I'm old enough to remember that businesses used to give out desk calendars with a built-in thermometer.

As far as the monitor possibly reading incorrectly, the thermistor (sensing unit), could be defective.

Taking a step back to air flow again.

The cool air in the Bottom front and out the back top

The reason for the fan exhaust under the power supply is to draw some of the fresh air into a void created by old style power supplies.( Pulled air in to itself on top front panel)
That space under the power supply just didn’t get the correct amount of air to cool the mother board design that placed the CPU directly under the P/S

I have two exhaust fans in that same location
What I meant by checking your air flow.
Is to check for air flow over and across all the components in the case

Like the memory slots, across and into all expansion slots

I have a dualy running amd 1800mp’s ( NOT O/C) ( 5 fans 2CPUx50x7200 3x80x5200 exhaust)
IF I move the IDE cables across the top of the memory slots
I get heat warnings
One small chip at the end of the slots will over heat and cause system errors ( Memory controller )
Also check the location of the heat censor on the M/B
You may have it covered or blocked by one of the cables or it could be reading the hot air flow off a card or from the CPU

My Case is at 25c/77f almost constant

Opened up the case again about 20 minutes ago, and reversed the new case fan (an 80mm Sanyo Denki high-performance unit) so that the main flow of air is toward exhaust. I also tried connecting the turbine blower to a different power connector.

I ran VIA Hardware Monitor with the cover off and on to check the temperatures again, and am looking at the current temps. As of right now, the CPU is steady at 113 F (45 C) and the system temperature is reading 120 F (49 C). The latter reading is significantly better than it was last evening, and I take this to be due to all the fans now working properly (including the turbine unit, which is now spinning fast and smooth). When I had the side cover off, the CPU was running at 105 F and the system temp was fluctuating from 111 F to 116 F.

The system/PS temp is still hotter than I would like, and it's peculiar that the CPU is running cooler than the readout from the PS, but as you see the changes I just made appear to have brought some improvement. I'll open up the cover again later today and look at the cables and wires, which are rather untidy anyway. Perhaps I should look into buying a set of those round IDE (rated for ATA-66/100) and floppy cables; from the comments in other sections of the board, aside from any heat issues they seem to be easier to manage than flat cables.

(Incidentially, I took a look at the case front with a view to possibly taking it off to put a fan in there, but unfortunately it doesn't look as if I can do that without having to go in and take out the drives. I should have thought of that back in January, but no use crying over spilt milk.)

Here's a great link with some visuals showing airflow and ideally what we're trying to achieve:

http://www.tweak3d.net/tweak/airflowtweak/print.shtml

Quick update: the system has been staying rock-steady at CPU temp 113-114 degrees F and system (power supply?) temp 120-122 degrees F all day. Not that I've been putting that heavy a workload on it, but I just finished a three-hour job of creating new HTML for my website which involved a lot of text manipulation, cutting and pasting, and the like, but the system is stable. I went to Best Buy today but couldn't find any 70mm case fans, I'll try the local "mom & pop" places tomorrow (they're all closed on Sunday and some of them might be closed on a federal holiday too but that's the chance I take). In any event, it looks as if the new high-performance case fan really is helping reduce temperatures; it spins about twice as fast as ordinary fans (which generally go at about 2900 RPM, this baby goes at 4600+ RPM) and does both intake and exhaust.

So you have two fans in a 5 1/4" bay blowing air out of case at you as you're sitting looking at the monitor?

That's half your problem right there. Either turn those fans around so they're blowing air into the case, or do away with them completely. Lots of systems built by Dell, HP, etc. have no intake fans whatsoever. The case airflow is all mucked up.

At the very least, the rear exhaust fan(s), including the PSU fan, should be drawing air through the case from front to back. An intake fan in the bottom front of the case would help, but for now, try my suggestion of doing something with the bay fans, just for grins and giggles. :)

What kind of fan has both intake and exhaust? Are you sure that you're not just feeling backpressure from the fan? This typically happens with the pre-stamped fan grills that most cases come with. They restrict sometimes as much as 70% airflow, so when you place your hand next to them inside the case, it feels like it's blowing air back into the case.

I always cut those stamped fan grills out before I even install anything in the case. You'd be surprised how much more efficiently your fan can expel hot air from the case when you do that.

BTW, the 12v rail on that True430 is fine. Most third party software programs read the rails lower than they really are. Check the BIOS for the true output reading. Bet you will find it's actually a little above 12volts.

Update: I just yanked that 2-fan blower unit out of the top 5.25" drive bay. It doesn't seem to have helped any, in fact the system temperature is now up to 127 degrees F / 53 degrees C. I'm afraid I may have to put it back in. :\ I tried to put an intake fan in, but I can't even get the front panel off, it's fastened in with plastic retainers and I don't know how to get them off without breaking them. I think I may end up having to get a new case, which kind of cheeses me off; this case is only about 5 months old and I was overall pretty pleased with it up 'til now. (Of course, if there's another way to fasten the fan to the front fan grille without having to use those pesky case-fan screws, I'm all for listening to it.)

Some cases have a pop-in plastic guide, originally for the ancient full-size cards. Some of those are made so that a cooling fan can be pressed into it, on the side facing the front of the case. Does your case have one?

Inspect that front cover carefully... I struggled with one for about 2 weeks before I finally noticed the screws that I had to remove before I could very easily remove the cover... Dumb, but probably not uncommon....:)

Hehe, the beauty of an Enlight Case...the front bezel is your way into the case...totally screwless access...pretty sweet! :cool: :D

Use 3M Brand double sided tape to stick a fan to the grill on the front of the case. A little square on each corner of the fan will hold it in there.

Obviously, your case air flow is still mucked up. Do you have rounded cables? Have you tried to tuck wires out of the way so that air can flow through the case?

Sorry to hear that about the front bay fans. Normally, that would have helped, so there is something else going on. How handy are you with a hole saw or jigsaw? You could cut a blowhole in the top of the case, which would probably help dramatically in this case, no pun intended.

Do you have a pic or URL of your computer case? I would like to see what we're dealing with.

I put the front bay fan assembly in again last evening in the original position, and temperatures have gone back down to where they were before I took it out. I can't turn the blower around because it would blow hot air _into_ the case, there's no way that I can figure to switch those fans to rotate in the opposite direction (if there were, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation :) ) We're talking about a box the size of a CD/DVD drive, 5.25" form factor, with a grille in front and two largish fans set into the bottom. This is different from the type you may be thinking of where the fans are set in the front.

I don't have rounded cables but I think I certainly will get them this weekend, as long as they are suitable for ATA-100. I have moved the tangle of wires over to the side and it does seem to have helped a little.

I'm afraid I don't have anything in particular to point you at to show you the case, I wish I did. It's one of your "no-name" mid-tower cases with 4 5.25" bays and 6 3.5" bays, ATX form factor. Actually, I'd been perfectly pleased with it up 'til now, I didn't realize until this week that it'd be so difficult to get the front bezel off (and no, I'm not handy with cutting and shaping plastic, so I'm afraid dramatically modding the case is out.) I might go back to the store where I bought it (about six months ago, actually) to ask them if they know how to get the front panel off.

I don't fancy having to buy a THIRD new case in a year, counting from last June, so I'll try your suggestion with the double-sided tape.

-Joe-

You could cut a blowhole in the top of the case, which would probably help dramatically in this case, no pun intended.
Actually BB, I thought it was mighty good!! :D

Oh yeah, and one more thing - and this is REALLY going to be a stupid question - how do I tell which direction is the proper direction to orient the fan (i.e., the direction in which the airflow blows) before I put the fan into the case? I had to take a guess when I put that new high-performance fan into the back of the chassis, by holding my hand up to it to see whether the air was blowing in or out.

There's usually an arrow on the fan housing pointing the direction of flow...

Ok...and it seems to me, based on my experience, that the side with the grille is the side through which the air actually blows, with the open side being the intake, so what I want to do when I put the fan into the front is to turn the grille side so that it faces into the chassis, right?

Maybe,

If there are no directional arrows on the side of the fan, the best way to determine direction is look at the frame.

The side that has the plastic supports from the frame to the centre hub which the fan spindle is connected to will be the exhaust side. There is usually a label there with voltage listings, etc. And this is the side the wires are visible.

Have this side facing in the direction you wish the air to flow.

Got it. I'm looking now at the Cooler Master fan I want to use, and the label with voltage and other electrical listing (and the part number) is on the side with the frame and wireleads, as you said. I've bought a roll of 3M double-sided tape today so I'll try that out and see how it works.

-Joe-

Well, I tried installing the fan with double-sided tape. The bad news is, it really didn't do much good cooling the system from the front side, and when I tried putting it on the inside of the side cover panel instead, there was only a brief drop in system temperature.

The good news, though, is that I think I've figured out why system temps are higher than CPU temps at last. In short, blame it on the video card. I had the PC Health screen of the CMOS up (which shows the temps and other such things) while I was maneuvering the fan around, and in passing I held it over the video card. I noted a drop in temperatures, and kept holding it over the card. The system temp went down to about 110 degrees F. That's when I tried taping it to the inside of the side cover, but I couldn't get it precisely aligned over the video card.

What the situation is, is that I have an ATI Radeon 9000, OEM edition, with a heatsink (passive cooling) but no fan (active cooling). This wasn't a problem during the winter - I bought it in January, and it's been cool in the room where I keep the computer up until the end of April - but now that temps are beginning to warm up, it seems that the card without a fan is generating more heat than the system can comfortably handle. At any rate, that's, I think, why the system temp was at 130 F or above last week before I put in the new high-performance fan, and may also explain most of the freezeups I was having last week (which are, now that I think of it, except for the black-screen factor, somewhat reminiscent of the multiple crashes I had last summer). I suspect that what I am going to need, in the absence of a front case fan (which may require a new case anyway if I can't figure out how to get the front bezel off) is either or both a) a fan for the video card, which I hope will be easy to put on or b) a 70mm case fan to go below the current 80mm fan on the back of the chassis to draw additional heat out. Comments?

-Joe-

You might want to take a look at the Thermaltake site for chipset fans.

www.thermaltake.com

There are two I would recommend taking a look at. The Crystal Orb and the Blue Orb.

In the absence of mounting holes and push pins to secure the fan I do believe these can also be affixed directly using a thermal adhesive. The fan housing serves as a heatsink.

The Crystal Orb has pretty decent substance to it and if you would need to adhere directly to the chip I would suggest looking there first.

If it does have mounting holes...it becomes necessary to pay attention to the distance between the pins and match to each fans specs.

A chipset fan is probably preferable, but I have had success using a slot fan with its intake close to the video card heat sink.
http://www.cablesnmor.com/fan-card.html

Originally posted by Reid
A chipset fan is probably preferable, but I have had success using a slot fan with its intake close to the video card heat sink.
http://www.cablesnmor.com/fan-card.html

!!!! I have one of those! It's currently in the bottom expansion slot, but I can easily move it up to the open slot under the video card. Thanks for the suggestion - might could be it'll save me a little money. :)

-Joe-

I dropped the system temperature by 10F by using the slot fan next to a Diamond Viper 770, so maybe you will see similar results. Just did not recall it until yesterday.

Ok, I think you're not seeing any improvement from the front intake fan because of the nest of wires you have. If you can order online, do so, because places like CompUSA charge ridiculous prices. Most if not all round cables sold today are capable of ATA66/100/133 transfer rates.

I haven't seen a fan yet that doesn't have directional arrows on it. Double check your fans to make sure you have them situated correctly. The arrows are usually on the edge of the fan housing.

I agree about the wires. I'm going down to the computer show tomorrow - I know several first-rate vendors there who specialize in cables and such-like parts - and I have a fairly extensive shopping list, including a 70mm case fan for the second fan outlet in the back, a high-performance slot fan (if I can find one), cable ties to tie off the wires and cables, round drive cables, and even (if I can find one - yeah, right!!) a case fan that plugs into the screw holes instead of having to be screwed in, so that I don't have to resort to using double-sided tape. Right now (I just got home) I'm going to swap the slot fan I currently have to right under the video card and see how well that works in decreasing heat. One other thing; I bought a couple of those new-fangled "heat spreaders" that you put on DIMM's, but haven't actually used them yet. How well do they really work? Real heatsinks might be better, but there's not enough space between the DIMM slots for that (there almost never is on any motherboard, I've seen).

-Joe-

P.S. (6:32 pm) I have just swapped the slot fan into a slot under the video card, leaving an empty slot between the two; I had to move my video capture card to make everything fit. So far, truth to tell, I'm not noticing much improvement; I'm beginning to wonder if part of the problem might not be that the computer is set in a hutch-type desk, though I've always tried to make sure there was plenty of room around it for air to flow. When I had the computer out and on the floor after moving the slot fan, with the side cover closed, the temperature _did_ go down about 6 degrees F to 114 degrees, but right now, back in its usual position, it's at 120 degrees F. (system) And yes, I made sure to give the slot fan a good blast with compressed air before re-installing it. I think it's time to go to the next step, getting round cables and tying up those wire bundles. I may also need to get one of those drive cooler fans for my primary HD, which is a WD 7200 RPM unit that pumps out a fair bit of heat (the O'Reilly book PC Hardware in a Nutshell recommends drive cooler fans for most HD's which spin at 7200 RPM or faster). My secondary HD is a 5400 RPM unit which doesn't get quite as hot.

I think it may be relevant that I didn't seem to have quite this problem with heat when I had smaller, slower HD's and a less powerful video card (Radeon 7200, which did also have a heatsink). I'm not sure how much good even a front-side intake fan would do under the circumstances, even if I got all those wires and cables squared away (unless it's another high-performance unit like the one I got for the rear chassis last Saturday).

Molded right in...sometimes easy to overlook! ;)

For what it's worth, it's been holding rock-steady at 114 F for CPU, 120 F for system for the last hour and a half now. Maybe a high-performance slot fan, if there's such a beast, _would_ help. Then again, maybe I should just search for a chipset fan suitable for a Radeon 9000. By the time this is over, I'm probably going to have ten or twelve fans in the box...What I should probably REALLY do is get one of those liquid-cooling systems, but you can't just get those off the shelf.

-Joe-

Check out here for video coolinig. (http://2cooltek.safeshopper.com/51/cat51.htm?690)

And check out the arm thing on the Zalman (http://2cooltek.safeshopper.com/31/cat31.htm?690) here.

You might yet want to consider lapping...

It's possible that you might not have a very good interface between the sink and processor. Every heatsink I've lapped has been high centered which would have made the interface rather dependent on the thermal paste rather than a tight processor to metal junction.

I forget what mjc quotes as average temp drop, but it seems as though it might be worth a closer look! ;)

Mine was about 6C, after lapping, so it can be significant.

Well, I've gotten round cables and installed them for both ATA channels and the floppy, and I've managed to find a 70mm case fan, but I can't really say there's been much change; the system temperature is _still_ hovering around 120 degrees F, no matter what I try. On the other hand, I did locate the guys from whom I bought the case, and will be bringing my box by their store Monday night so that they can help me install a front-side fan. I also bought a underside-mount drive cooler fan, but haven't yet mounted it. All the chipset fans I looked at seem to require that I will have to remove the current heatsink to install them, which disappoints me; I was hoping to find just a fan to clip onto the heatsink. I will ask about lapping when I take the machine in, since I don't quite feel right about my ability to handle a task like that (I took the box in last year to have my Athlon installed by somebody who actually knew what he was doing).

-Joe-

Originally posted by joea64
I'm beginning to wonder if part of the problem might not be that the computer is set in a hutch-type desk, though I've always tried to make sure there was plenty of room around it for air to flow. When I had the computer out and on the floor after moving the slot fan, with the side cover closed, the temperature _did_ go down about 6 degrees F to 114 degrees, but right now, back in its usual position, it's at 120 degrees F. (system)I think the computer's location is causing the computer to recirculate warm air, since it ran cooler on the floor. I also think lapping the CPU and heat sink is unnecessary because the CPU temperature seems fine all along, and lapping will not help lower the system temperture.

Well, I just experimented with putting the underside drive cooler on. It doesn't seem to be having much effect so far; the system temperature is already back to 120 degrees F and it's only been booted for about ten minutes. The more I think about it, the more I think that the location of the computer _could_ have something to do with it. The big problem is, I really don't believe moving the computer is a satisfactory option under my present circumstances. My workstation is really very cramped; the desk/bookcase area was built ten years ago for me by my parents, before I ever even thought of putting a PC there, and it's really too small to put the box, the monitor, the keyboard, and the scanner all in one place - plus which, there's already another computer set up there. I _could_ swap around the computers, but then I'd have to hold the keyboard in my lap and shuffle things around whenever I wanted to use the flatbed scanner. The hutch arrangement is also cramped, but it has the advantage of having the keyboard and mouse on a pullout drawer which is much easier for me to utilize since this is my primary machine and the computer on the desk is a relatively-seldom-used secondary unit. The thing is, I've done the best I can to give airflow room to move; there's at least 2 or 3 inches of open space on either side, and about 6 to 7 inches open space between the rear of the chassis and the wall.

*sigh* I'm going to power down again and pull out that drive cooler, since it's not doing any good at all. I think I'll just have to wait until Monday evening to see what the people down at the computer store can do about helping me get that front cover off so I can put a intake fan in there; I bought a second high-performance (4500 - 4700 rpm) Sanyo Denki fan today which I will be using for that purpose.

-Joe-

P.S. With all due respect to the people who have suggested lapping, I think Reid is right, on further consideration. The Athlon CPU has been staying very, very steady all along; it hasn't gotten hotter than 118 degrees F at any time and most of the time it's cranking along at 114 or 116 F. This is well within tolerances.

My main reason for mentioning lapping the heatsink, was not only to attempt to draw down the temps directly related to the processor, but I'm also going on a hunch that if the processor is not dissapating heat properly it can in turn also cause the system temps to climb.

I'm not sure where on the Motherboard the system temps are being monitored, but if the sink interface is not allowing the processor to run cool, would the excess heat be picked up by the motherboard itself?

I thought there might be a connection?? :confused:

If anything, perhaps the interface has some problems that might be easily cured with cleaning and resetting the heatsink...

Originally posted by Whyzman

I'm not sure where on the Motherboard the system temps are being monitored, but if the sink interface is not allowing the processor to run cool, would the excess heat be picked up by the motherboard itself?In an earlier post, Joea64 said the system temp went down when he held a small fan pointing at the video board, so the sensor may be nearby. I do not know how far that is from the CPU, but I understand your point.

I still wonder if the system temp is a true indication. I am running an AMD XP 1800+ in a room at 80F, with a TruePower 480 dual-fan PS, a front intake fan and a small rear exhaust fan and system temp was 97F after several hours. No round cables, just a mess of ribbon cables.

If moving the computer isn't really an option, how about directing a small desk fan or box fan into the area where the computer is located. Alternately, mounting a small fan inside, exhausting air out of the enclosure should also help, especially if the desk/hutch has a door that you can leave open.

The hutch is open to front and rear, so that part is already taken care of. I would have to move things around a bit, but if I can find a small enough fan I may give it a try. Alternatively, when I go in tomorrow night to see about getting that front fan installed I could see if I can swap the current side cover (which has a window that's not really of much use, since the box is set where nobody can easily look into it) for a side cover with a fan, if they have any more of that particular case model on hand - in that case I'll have the fan set up to be intake. Right now, though, I'm going to shut down the system, open up, and let things cool down for a bit; I find that my maintenance work earlier this evening in defragging the partitions has raised the system temperatures beyond acceptable limits.

-Joe-

P.S. (3:30 am! - well, I have this tendency to wake up in the small hours of the morning) At this moment, I have the side cover off and the computer outside the hutch, on the floor, open side facing outward (I'll have to be VERY careful not to stick my foot into the system innards). The difference is pretty noticeable; according to VIA HW Monitor, the CPU is at 109 degrees F and the system temp reads 113 degrees F, occasionally fluctuating downward to 111 F. It probably helps, of course, that a large box fan is running about five feet away (it's not blowing into the computer itself - wrong angle - but there's a good solid wave of cool air coming through the area where I'm sitting with the computer at my feet). It's kind of physically awkward, but until I can get ahold of a small box fan or work out some other expedient, I'm going to leave the computer as is for right now. Under the circumstances, a few hours with the cover off certainly won't hurt!

I have had another thought; since the video card obviously seems to be the source of a lot of the heat, I might back out from that particular video card and go back to the older Radeon (a 7200 unit with 64 MB) that I was running up until January. I installed that Radeon 7200 in the depths of summer heat back in July, and never had any particular problem; in fact I think the 7200 puts out a lot less heat than the 9000, even though it's also got a heatsink. I'm not going to try doing any major card swapping at this hour, but in the daylight I'll try installing the older card and see what that might do to help. I have just downloaded the most recent available Windows 98 driver from ATI.

I am also beginning to wonder if the heating situation might not also be contributing to the fatal exception 0E errors I've been getting every so often for the last couple of weeks (see separate thread in the Windows forum).

Update at 8 am: I think I'm forming a modified hypothesis about the source of these heating problems. It's not so much the hutch that the computer has been situated in - after all, it's been that system's location since October of '01- as it is the large amount of heat-producing equipment that's packed inside the case, which apparently has outstripped the case's ability to vent even with multiple exhaust fans.

I've got two Western Digital 80 GB HD's in the 3.5" drive bays, the primary 7200 RPM and the secondary 5400 RPM. They're spaced in the bays so that there's open space to their tops and bottoms, but as you know these high-capacity hard drives, especially the faster-spinning ones, produce a lot of heat. I experimented with a drive cooler fan yesterday for the primary HD but it didn't work very well, probably because the case was closed up (see further discussion below).

Also, there's the Radeon 9000 video card. This, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, has a heatsink (passive cooling) but no fan (active cooling). I think the reason I didn't have a problem earlier was that I bought and installed the card in January, in the middle of a colder-than-usual winter in my area, and the weather up to the last couple of weeks has been cooler than usual which helps to lower the ambient temperatures in my home. And then, of course, there's the Athlon 1.4 Ghz Thunderbird. All of those pieces of equipment together are pumping out an ungodly amount of heat.

Now, here's why I think the hutch might not be entirely to blame after all; I mentioned earlier on that I had noticed a decrease in temperatures with a case fan being held directly over the AGP slot area to blow air onto it, but I should have specified that the case was open at the time. When I taped the fan onto the side cover in the same approximate area and closed the cover up, the system temperatures went back up to where they had been. I should also add that I've noticed, on further analysis, that when the computer is out of the hutch and sitting on the floor, with the cover on, system temps kept going up to their "usual" 120 F + levels.

Now...as I said in my last post, I have the system out of the hutch and on the floor, with the side cover off (remember this!). There's a large box fan about 5 - 6 feet away blowing a constant stream of cool air into my workstation area, though the open side of the computer isn't facing the fan. Right now, there is a dramatic drop in CPU and system temperatures according to VIA HW Monitor. System temperatures have dropped an average of 10 degrees F or more. In fact, system temperatures have not risen higher than 114 degrees in the last five hours or so since I put the computer in its current position. What's more, on at least one occasion, the system temperature has actually dropped to 102 degrees F, below the "hysteresis" temperature for the system according to VIA HW. CPU temperatures have dropped too, by an average of 6 to 7 degrees F.
At this moment, the system temperature is 107 degrees F (42 C) and the CPU temperature is 107 degrees F (42 C).

So what next? I'm going to go out today and see what I can do about finding the smallest box fan I can get that will give a good flow of air with a sturdy base, then put the computer back into the hutch, with the side cover off, and position that fan so that it'll blow a constant stream of air onto the system. Tomorrow, as I've said, I'm going to see about having a front-side chassis intake fan installed, and I'm also going to see if I can swap the current side panel (which has a window that's useless to me) for a side panel with a fan position (set to intake).

-Joe-

I got the folks at the computer store to show me how to open up the front cover, and installed a front-chassis intake fan - the same high-performance model as the 80mm case fan affixed to the rear chassis. I have the computer in its accustomed place in the hutch with the side cover on, and VIA HW Monitor is showing a definite improvement; the system temperature is fluctuating between 111 and 113 degrees, and the CPU temperature is at 114 degrees. I'd personally be happier if I could get it a little cooler, but that would require putting in another front-side fan, possibly, and I think I've had just about enough fiddling about inside the box for one week. :) Yes, I know - heretical thought! I'm going to continue to monitor the temperature, as well as the VxD situation (see my thread over in the Windows forum), but I'm going to mark this problem for now as provisionally "solved", unless somebody has another idea about improving case ventilation or temperatures go up again abruptly.

-Joe-

Ok, sounds and looks good...

48 hours or so now, and still running steady. CPU temp is up a bit to 118 degrees but the system temp is holding at 114 degrees, which means that the CPU is actually warmer than the system now, the way it should be!

-Joe-

Hope I'm not violating board etiquette too badly by resurrecting a month-old thread, but I wanted to report the latest development in my ongoing struggle to keep my system cool.

As it worked out, I had to move the system blower back to its original slot because my video capture card wouldn't work properly in the slot it'd been moved to. Since the system blower was no longer as close to the CPU, temperatures went back up again - in fact, today they were at 125 degrees F for both CPU and system/power supply. I'd also started having problems again with freezes and even a couple of spontaneous reboots.

I consulted the gurus at my friendly neighborhood computer shop about the problem, and determined that the main source of trouble was...my Athlon T-Bird 1.4Ghz. Specifically, the tremendous amount of heat it pumps out. They recommended upgrading to an Athlon XP, since the latest generation of Athlons (Palomino core) uses less power and is built to manage heat better than the Thoroughbred-core CPU's. An XP 1700+ was originally suggested (my current BIOS can take up to a 2200+), but they didn't have any 1700+'s in stock at the time, so I got a 2000+, which only cost $6 more and gave me 200MHz more clock speed. I purchased a Thermaltake Volcano 9 HSF as well, and they used thermal paste/compound instead of thermal tape. It's as well because when I looked at the old HSF I discovered that the tape patch was off-center; it may, in fact, never have perfectly covered the CPU core. It's actually a wonder in retrospect that my CPU didn't burn up.

Anyway, I've been running for an hour or so now without any problems, and CPU and system temperatures are well within norms (116 F / 47 C) according to VIA Hardware Monitor. I'll have to see what happens when the system is worked, but this is a real improvement of almost 10 degrees F over the previous idling temperatures (that 125-degree mark was when the system hadn't been doing anything all day while I was off at work!)

-Joe-

Glad to hear you got it figured out and working. Also, I am grateful that you reported back. Not only is it not a violation of etiquette to report back, it is much appreciated...:)

Originally posted by Budfred
Glad to hear you got it figured out and working. Also, I am grateful that you reported back. Not only is it not a violation of etiquette to report back, it is much appreciated...:)

Well, that's good. :) I do need to make a correction, though; I think I got my CPU generations reversed. The Thoroughbred is actually more modern than the Palomino, and what my 2000+ has is the Thoroughbred-A. In either case, there's a definite improvement in temps.

-Joe-

I'm willing to bet that not was that pad on the original heatsink of center but the heatsink itself was cupped...a very likely candidate for a round with some various grits of wet/dry sand paper and a nice flat surface...

Originally posted by mjc
I'm willing to bet that not was that pad on the original heatsink of center but the heatsink itself was cupped...a very likely candidate for a round with some various grits of wet/dry sand paper and a nice flat surface...

It's kind of academic at the moment, but you could be right though the cupping, if it's there, can't be discerned with the naked eye, at least my naked eye. The Thermaltake Volcano 9 is working better so far than the TI-V77A (the old heatsink), at any rate; I just got through a rather CPU-intensive session of video still capture, DVD/MPEG clip playing, and image format batch conversion with the CPU temp still being at 116 degrees when it was all done. Standard operating temp seems to be 118 degrees, which is within the normal range though I'd still prefer it to be a bit cooler (but then, ambient temperature does play a role and my A/C is in need of maintenance). All in all, though, it's all most satisfactory so far.
-Joe-

The sinks appear to be extruded aluminum that simply gets "chunked" into heatsink sized pieces. It's probably the nature of the beast that in the cooling process they tend to cup.

It's been my experience since hearing about lapping from mjc and performing the procedure on 6 sinks that this is indeed true.

After the initial passes on the 320 grit the corners unvariably showed wear/where LOL

Whether it was total copper, or copper inset in aluminum, they all needed some work!

http://overclockersclub.com/heatsinklappingguide.php

mjc usually helps out about now with the percentage temp drop you might expect after lapping...I have great difficulty remembering it...:confused: But it is pretty substantial! ;)

Expect to see somewhere in the neighbor of 5 or more degrees C drop. I had a 6 C drop.