I have this new set of Klipsch 2.1 Promedia speakers. Right now they are just hooked up to my Asus A7V333 onboard sound. They sound pretty good to me, but I was thinking of picking up a Audigy sound card. Would that benifit the sound quality much at all? Is a sound card really miles ahead of onboard sound?

That is an excellent question...

I'm definitely not what folks would classify an "audiophile." :)

To my "average listener" ears, the speakers seem to be the big difference one way or the other...

I think Saphalline had some recent observations regarding the current quality of on-board reaching pretty near parity with sound cards...Perhaps he'll drop by and proffer his thoughts...as he seems to be on top of this...

I know we do have some "more sophisticated" ears around here...:D So hang on and I'm sure there's more to be heard on this story...

The Audigy series of cards is definitely of better quality than any onboard sound system (with the possible exception of nForce2 Soundstorm onboard sound). Goto:

http://www.tomshardware.com/

Then search under Audio/video for Audigy for 17 reviews of Audigy sound cards.

Now, whether you can actually hear the difference is another story.

Sound quality is usually limited by speakers. Most users have $15 speaker buds that can barely distinguish between 8-bit and 16-bit wav files. :p Seeing as how you have a set of Klipsch, I can see that's not the problem. So yes, a better sound card would help.

There are two kinds of sound cards. Those with a DSP and those without. A DSP is a digital sound processor, a chip specifically designed to convert digital audio to analog signals. DSP's help off-load DAC duties from the CPU, but the downside is lack of features. The Audigy series use a DSP - onboard sound and other sound cards don't.

A PCI sound card is better than onboard sound, within limits. The Sound Blaster Audigy2 is good for games where the DSP speed helps more than fidelity. A sound card like M-Audio's Revolution 7.1 is best for recording your first album at home. :cool:

Okay then I suppose I will break down and put out for an Audigy card. If I can hear a big difference I will post back and let everyone know. Hey, if can detect any improvement then there has to be a huge difference in quality. My ears are not the greatest.. too many rock concerts when I was young.

Okay, the card came yesterday and I installed it last evening. I can hear no difference in sound quality at all between the onboard sound and this Audigy 2 Z5. This could be because of the kind of speakers I have. The card is designed to handle 5.1 and 6.1 sound systems. Mine are Klipsch 2.1 analog speakers. They don't sound bad at all. I just can't tell any difference between the card and the onboard A7V333 sound.

I just put in a new m/b which came with o/b (full duplex) sound, cant tell the difference as yet from my soundblaster card.

Sounds like you guys need some surround-sound speakers! :p Seriously, tho, what you really need is something that will strain your sound hardware. MIDI, wav, and MP3 just don't cut it! You need some Dolby Digital and DTS movies. You may also need to update your sound drivers and codecs.

Since I'm just discovering the wonderful world of codecs, I can't be of much help in that area. Sorry. But rest assured I won't sit idle! Just give me a bit of time, ok? :D

Hey, I know absolutely nothing about sound and speakers. I don't even know which is better analog or digital. So, I will be more than happy to read any opinions on sound, speakers, sound cards, etc. that you care to post.

But these Klipsch 2.1s are sounding pretty good. I just got a music CD in the mail today. It really sounds great! It's Terry Allen's Lubbock (on everything).

Glad to hear those Klipsch 2.1's are good. They better be! They're rated by many as being the best 2.1 speakers for the PC.

Digital vs Analog: I have and always will prefer analog for audio duties. The reason is simple - sound waves, any waves, are analog. Turning them into digital theoretically degrades the quality. However, since PCs already take audio sources as digital, I wouldn't be adverse to the idea of PC-based digital audio.

As it stands, tho, digital isn't yet the way to go for speaker systems. The current optical connector for high-speed digital audio can only do stereo, not surround-sound. I myself don't have surround-sound speakers, but many here do, and I would be reluctant to recommend anything to anyone that would take away audio channels from their much loved and much costly :p speaker systems.

Analog speakers still rule on the PC. That may change in the next 2-3 years, tho.

Here's a bit more info on digital vs analog, just for the sake of more info.

Digital vs analog sound (http://www.gruntproductions.com/recorded/analog_vs_digital.htm)

Home Recording (http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=114) article with a similar explanation and a diagram to help.

Digital Audio Theory (http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~jglettle/section/digitalaudio/) More than I ever wanted to know about digital audio...

And a nice, down to earth look at the advantages and drawbacks of both, just for fun, from M Works (http://www.m-works.com/articleDetail/analogVsDigital.html)

Um, you can give me that Audigy2 ZS if you don't like it. :D

Come on now, are we pleading poverty here? ;) They are really not that expensive, not compared to video cards anyway. I got it off newegg.com for about $90. You can get the non ZS for $74. But what is needed is a nice 5.1 set of speakers to really make the card shine. I don't know if I will upgrade these Klipsch 2.1s or not. I am happy with them for now. Terry Allen is rocking the boat :cool: In a funky country kind of way :D

For music listening on a PC the Klipsch Pro Media 2.1s cannot be beat.

For gaming or watching movies, a nice set of 5.1s is the way to go.

I have the 2.1 Pro Medias and a set of the Logitech Z-560s. The Pro Media are far superior for music reproduction, clearer lows and highs and much, much clearer on the mid range. The Z-560s are incredible for games though and for DVDs, movies they are a must have!

Oh, and for the record, I definitely notice a difference with the Audigy2 as opposed to onboard sound.

"Oh, and for the record, I definitely notice a difference with the Audigy2 as opposed to onboard sound."

The more I listen to this Audigy 2 set up the more I am inclined to agree. At least listening to music. With the games, specifically Call of Duty, I couldn't notice a difference, but playing music is a different story. Music didn't sound this clear and distinct with the onboard sound.

Try using EAX sound in the sound options of Call of Duty instead of using the Milesfast 2D audio. Even with 2.1 speakers there is quite a difference.

"very exclusive niche market - passionate audiophiles and extreme gamers, who are interested in building their own ultimate entertaining PCs"


And this (heck, the drool factor alone has my ears itching for a listen....)

http://english.aopen.com.tw/products/mb/ax4b-533tube.htm

Google list of reviews (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&safe=off&q=AOpen+AX4B+533&btnG=Google+Search)

would probably do those Klipsch speakers justice...

I found that EAX option. Geez this game is intense huh? It is almost like, too much :eek: :p

That tube MOBO is interesting. One thing to consider, when it is time to move on and upgrade MOBOs, you are kind of SOL with the tube. You can take the Audigy along with you.

One thing to consider, when it is time to move on and upgrade MOBOs, you are kind of SOL with the tube. You can take the Audigy along with you.

That depends on whether the tube idea catches on or not. AOpen apparently likes it, they just might continue to develop future boards that incorporate tube audio, we'll have to wait and see. On the other hand, if you have to swap your motherboard, the replacement will undoubtedly have built in audio, since that has become a standard feature in the past few years.

I'd like to see how this thing sounds, tubes have always had a reputation for good sound. As a guitar player, I won't touch a solid state gutar amp any more, even my practice amp uses tubes. (Fender Champ - 10 watts max, all tube.) No solid state practice amp can match it, I've tried all of them.

I also have a tube type Sansui stereo that's out of commission until I can get it fixed, when working I loved it. Until you crank it up past the amp's distortion point my solid state stereo (twice the wattage) didn't sound as good.

As far as guitar amps go, I've noticed two things. Solid state amps I've used always had thin, mushy bass response, I couldn't even think about hitting low notes during a solo. Tubes punch the bass out so well I LOVE to drop to the bottom end during solos. I set my amp so when I hit a low note I feel it hitting me in the back, and it sounds like a 10' tall Doberman barking behind me...Solid state just won't do that.

The other thing is a "sparkly", "tinkling" sound and a warmth you can't quite put a finger on. When it's clean it's the sweetest sound you can find, while solid state is actually harsh and biting when clean. When it goes into dostortion from overdriving the tubes, that effect is much more noticable. Solid state distortion is more controllable with the knobs, but harsh, while natural tube distortion has that same warmth...tube distortion is what made rock and roll what it is today, and almost all professional guitar payers still look for tube amps, especially older "vintage" ones.

Listen to Eric Clapton's "Layla" by his "Derek and the Dominoes" with Duane Allman helping on guitar. Clapton used a Fender Champ, all tube amp on that one. (Much earlier Champ than mine, different circuitry) Anything Led Zeppelin did was all done with mostly Marshall tube amps. Any of the early Allman Brothers recordings, while Duane was still alive, are great examples of the clean sound tube amps can get. "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" is one of the best examples, and even better is the intro to Pink Floyd's "Shine on You Crazy Diamond". That's probably the best clean guitar sound I know of...Gilmour uses Hiwatt amps mostly, and has used Marshall's a lot. I tried for that sound with transistor amps for years and couldn't touch it...My Fender Champ will almost duplicate it, except for less bass due to the small speaker.

If the tube idea catches on with motherboards, "bringing it with you" might not be an issue, we'll have to wait and see. If not, you'll still have one really nice sounding system for a while...

Seems like mjc and I discussed this a while back on IRC, kind of wishing a sound card had room for a tube or two. We laughed it off as something computer manufacturers wouldn't even consider...OOPS!!

Woah! If I need some inside info on the classic rock sceen I will know who to ask :cool:

I was high school age outside of Frisco in the 60s. We use to truck on down every weekend to the Fillmore or Avalon ballroom and hear the bands. There were a lot of outside concerts around the bay area or in Golden Gate park in those days and we would attend those too. Big Brother with Janis Joplin, Quicksliver Messenger Service, the Airplane and the Dead, Country Joe and The Fish, Blue Cheer, Steve Miller. Paul Butterfield with Mike Bloomfield and Elvin Bishop in the band were hot! Saw Clapton when he was playing with Cream. Hendrix was the only musician I saw where the hippies lost their cool and rushed the stage. The Doors came up from LA, and the Iron Butterfly, so I got to hear them. Some of the best music was from the black blues artists that were on tour from Chicago. B B King, James Cotton; bands like that were really good. Bo Diddley was cool. Saw Chuck Berry, but by then he was bored with the whole thing. Kept looking at his watch while he was playing, he he!

A sound card with tubes! I was thinking of that right after I posted! That would be the solution. Or, if this constant upgrading cycle ever slows down and you can expect a MOBO to last three or four years. But why not put tubes on cards? Hey if we can put rovers on Mars It shouldn't be a problem, right?

If the tube idea catches on with motherboards, "bringing it with you" might not be an issue, we'll have to wait and see.

Sadly, it looks as though it hasn't caught on. AOpen only utilized it on a special edition Intel 845 board. None of their newer top of the line Intel 865PE/875P boards have it. They made the tube boards in limited editions, they sold slowly and no other board manufacturer took up the idea. Seems AOpen has abandoned it. Virtually impossible to find one of these boards new (except for one at a store two blocks from me, been in a display case for about 8 months;) )

malcore, any updates on this one?

http://english.aopen.com.tw/products/mb/ak79gtube.htm

Hmmm... it would appear that AOpen is still trying to get vacuum tubes to catch on! Pretty good idea if they can keep it up and become known for it.

As for the viability in a sound card, I suppose it could work if they managed to put one on a mobo without unacceptable levels of interference. The problem with a computer is that the electro-magnetic interference inside a PC may be far less than a 600W guitar amplifier, but it is far more erratic and comes from many more sources. Without proper circuit isolation (and maybe even shielding) distortion in a PC could render a vacuum tube's advantages moot.

And there are many, as Paleo Pete said. Well, for sound anyway. :p Transistors have already replaced the vacuum tube in the areas where they are superior, and yet they still hunger for more! Hehe, ok, so it's more of a cost thing, but sound is pure analog and so are our ears. Vacuum tubes reign supreme.

Putting tubes on a sound card would be quite a bit more difficult than putting one on a motherboard. Just to put one on a motherboard you have to take a good long look at the layout, since tubes have one affect that is definitely NOT an asset...they run HOT. Burn your fingers hot...if you have to change a tube in the middle of a performance, you do it with an oven mitt or thick gloves, they really get that hot. Hotter than light bulbs.

So just to make it work on the motherboard you have to deal with heat issues, and manage to place it in a location that will get plenty airflow, and preferably not blow that air across the CPU. I didn't take a good close look at the pictures, but mjc informs me they used heat baffles on this beast too.

Also, the smallest tube I know of is 1 1/2" tall, which makes putting it on a sound card quite difficult. The PCI slots are about 1" apart, 3/4" or less clearance after cards are installed..Turning it so it sits vertically would never work, no way to effectively attach the socket, tube diameter is still too large to fit, and it would heat up the card itself too much. Possibly it would burn the card, definitely discolor it.

So in answer to the comment on the previous page about putting tubes on a sound card, I seriously doubt that it would be possible, unless someone manages to design a tube 1/2" tall and the diameter of a pencil. Make that 3/8" tall...the socket would have to add 1/4" minimum. That would make the clearance so tight you would run a serious risk of breaking a delicate glass tube trying to install the card. And the tubes for my guitar amp (6L6-GC) are $35-38 a pair...Granted, smaller ones are cheaper, $10-12 or so each (12AX7A tube 2" tall), but a specialty tube designed specifically for computer usage? Expect the price to go way up...

malcore, any updates on this one?

Can anyone find a retailer carrying this? I can't find one.

At the moment AOpen are not offering the tube on any of their Athlon64 or Intel 865/875 top end boards. I hope they do, just given the scarcity of availability of their prior tube boards, it seems unlikely.

As for the heat created by the tube on this board, it is quite minimal. It's a very high quality tube and becomes only warm to the touch when in full use. The price is steep, however.

Dealing with the heat and clearance issue isn't insurmountable. I mean, look at the freakin' huge GF FX coolers! The first consumer video cards to take up 2 mobo slots (or at least the first in a very long time).

I don't think a double-decker sound card and/or cooler would be out of the question. It might detract from sales, but given the fact that tubes can knock the socks off a transistor-based solution, I think the audiophile elites would be willing to buy/install it.

The other major concern, however, is the fact that 90% of all computers out there suffer more from their speakers than their audio hardware. Users who know better (like us ;) ) know that tubes are better, but I don't think they'll catch on in the larger market until more people are willing to buy good speakers, much less great ones. :rolleyes:

Yep, I don't think tubes will catch on either, at least in the general consumer market, but I'd sure like to see Aopen continue to develop tube sound for their motherboards, that would be really nice. mjc would probably sell your grandmother to get one... :D then again so would I...hehe

Tubes on sound cards? I seriously doubt it. Between size considerations and heat, I don't think it would be practical. Get around size, and heat becomes a major issue. PCI cards, being located where they are, don't get great airflow to begin with, and tubes get hotter than light bulbs, so cooling would be a major obstacle. (Trust me, I've had to change tubes in the middle of a rehearsal...you don't want to touch one.) Sticking a tube between two cards, even a card that hogs two slots, would be a bear to cool.

Realistically, I don't see it happening. It would be nice, but I can't see a way to make it workable.

You make an excellent point about speakers, although your estimate is probably on the low side, 95% of all computers - would be my estimate - don't have speakers that will produce truly high quality sound. Myself included, my speakers sound pretty good, but aren't even close to what would be needed to reproduce high quality audio.

Hmmm... I wonder how much grandmothers go for in today's market... :p

I'm not saying AOpen or anyone else would actually put a tube on a sound card, I'm just saying it could be done. Why don't you try, Paleo Pete? :D

I wonder if cooling the tube would be easier with the new BTX form factor on a PCI Express card?...

Yes, 95% sounds better, but I was saying that 90% of computers have bad speakers, not necessarily that 10% have great speakers. More like 2% for great speakers.

I'm also in the "good" range of speakers - Logitech Z-340's. A nice set of 2.1 speakers for the price, but at only $50 you get what you pay for. I also have a decent pair of $30 Sony headphones for late night gaming. Sadly, even if I had the money for better speakers, I don't think I'd use it. Such is life in an apartment. :(

Going back to earlier points about onboard versus dedicated sound cards, there havent been any major advances in sound card technology in recent years.

IMO this has allowed onboard codecs like the nVidia Soundstorm to gain a lot of ground on Creative and other card manufacturers.

I am about as fussy as anyone when it comes to sound - its gotta sound right or theres no point in listenin as far as I am concerned!! Still I found it difficult to tell the difference between my old ISA Creative SB 16 and my current onboard nVidia Soundstorm. I have had some problems with the sound crashing during gameplay so I bought an SB Live! card to clean things up. I actually think that the Soundstorm did a better job when it worked. It felt "clearer" and thats the only way I can describe it.

Apart from a very slight improvement in the overall sound quality todays soundcards (as has already been pointed out) are only distinguishable in their surround sound reproduction. As bigger sets of speakers come out, the current top of the range being 7.1, the only real advances in sound card technology will be the ability to cope with them. Just look at the audigy series, there isnt a huge difference between the original audigy and the current audigy 2 ZS - each revision has given us more speakers, 5.1 to 6.1 and now 7.1.