Hi all,

I'm a newbie to the forum, and I've spent a month trying to get my new computer to work to no avail.
I just want to start by saying, if this were overheating - everything would make sense, because it crashes all the time, regardless of the software running. However it has crashed at least twice within 15min of startup (on very cold mornings), and then anywhere between 1 and 8 hours.

Crashing consists always of a total freeze with nothing responding (no keyboard or mouse). And if a sound is playing (in a game) it will loop, or create a bizarre collage of every sound file in the software (hard to explain I know but it sounds hideous).

It crashes (freezes):

During Diablo2
During DVD playback
Unreal tournament
Medal of Honour
Mpeg2 to Mpeg1 encoding (a real pain when a 12 hour conversion is nearly finished)
Video capture (via USB)
Playing a sound file on the desktop.
Civilisation3
During a windows reinstallation it crashed.
During a HDD format it crashed.

NB: it has never crashed when on the desktop without sound or video - however this is not a work computer so it seems the amount of time I spend on each task determines when it crashes.

Here are the specs:

Windows 98SE
Intel 850i MB
P4-1800
Creative Audigy (the no frills version) with the latest drivers
'Pixelview' (i.e. cheapo) Geforce3 ti200
a 40GB hard-drive (can't remember brand)
256MB RDRAM
a no frills network card

It's a beast in terms of performance - scoring about 6500 on 3Dmark - but who cares if it keeps crashing. Again, it would make perfect sense if it were overheating, but can a PC with a overheating problem really overheat within 15min on a cold morning?

Since I'm new to the forum I don't know what the extent of expertise/ assitance offered is, but since it's brand new, all I need is a vague idea of which component is messing up. I suspect soundcard - but it's a brand-name. I also suspect the HDD is perhaps not keeping up (it has some fancy intel DMA drivers), the HDD also frequently has errors under scandisk, although I think this may be a result of the freezing and not a cause, as when I was formatting it once the computer froze. It would be great if I could write the whole system off and get an Xbox, but computer shops don't do refunds - so what should I get them to replace?

Any help, or just consolation will be warmly appreciated http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


Lara

Hello Lara,

Welcome to http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/pcgubb.gif Forums!

Are you working with a computer shop that has provided you a warranty? Need to ask that before any suggestions regarding "going under the hood" and "messing!"

Have you checked in DEVICE MANAGER for any (!) or conflicts?

Do you have access to another stick of RAM?

If this is always appearing during Processor Intensive games...have you shut down unnecessary Tasks Ctrl+Alt+Del?

If you are just allowing to run on Desktop do you ever get a crash?

Are there ever any Error Messages?



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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

Are you working with a computer shop that has provided you a warranty?

Since the computer is brand new (1 month) and since they have given me a 2 year parts warranty (but I have to keep dragging it back to the shop), I don't want to go under the hood at all. It's just they strike me as a pack of morons (the first time I took it back, the video card was not properly inserted, causing sparks and a crash every time I switched monitors) hence, if I have a vague idea what the problem is I feel I can give them some guidance http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Have you checked in DEVICE MANAGER for any (!) or conflicts?

Of course, and no conflicts, no yellow exclamation marks, and all drivers working fine.

Do you have access to another stick of RAM?

No - I can't quite see what you're getting at? I suppose it could be the RD-RAM - you think asking them to put another fan above the RAM would help?

If this is always appearing during Processor Intensive games...have you shut down unnecessary Tasks Ctrl+Alt+Del?

I don't run background programs - I don't buy a new computer to slow it down with a dozen little programs running in the background. However I can see what you're getting at - it does crash during processor intensive operations (DVD playback, mpeg encoding etc.) But apart from the soundcard utilities (which I have disabled and it doesn't help), my system is reading 90% free on the desktop.

If you are just allowing to run on Desktop do you ever get a crash?

Can't say I have, no. If I do this and it does/doesn't crash, does it allow me to rule out a possible problem?

Are there ever any Error Messages?


No never, just a total freeze. There was one once during a windows reinstall (my third http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif) and I regret not writing it down.

Sorry I'm having trouble working out the quote commands so this will look confusing.

Thanks for the prompt response,

Lara

Lara,

causing sparks and a crash every time I switched monitors

Gotta ask...were you "hot swapping" monitors? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

I would suggest that you bring the computer back and "instruct" the "pack of morons" that you are giving them one last opportunity to get your system up and running or, you would like a full refund! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

That, you would like them to "test drive" whatever game is giving you the most problems, and be able to do so without incident! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Don't know if you have a "lemon" law there in Sydney but you might want to refer to one to get their attention! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

The sparks caused by your video card have me concerned that they might have damaged another component. RAM can easily be damaged, as well as other components, by a ESD in the realm of 200V...it takes 2000 volts for us to be able to feel one. Electrical sparks...not good! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

I would be quite forceful as you're having so many problems this early on. If you used a credit card for your purchase you would have recourse through them.

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

Thanks Whyzman,

I'm glad that someone is as outraged as I really am. I've been very patient with this computer, so it is time to get tough.
I think on the basis of your help and reading a few other threads about overheating I will go that way first.
I will ask that they put additional cooling inside the computer at their cost. If that does not solve the problem, it must be damaged ram, or something else they damaged when the videocard was not in properly (note that this problem is solved now - but could have caused the damage).
And then demand a refund ?
I have two problems doing this:

1. the problem does not present as severe. It runs like a dream for between 10min and 8 hours (on average 2hours). It's unacceptable for me as a total freeze wipes out video encoding/ capture, and that rare item in Diablo2 that I have on the ground at just the point the disaster strikes. However it's going to be a pain demonstrating this in a shop. So I'll try a few techniques like running a game constantly overnight to see if I can replicate it with 100% certainty.

2. Computer shops (in Sydney) don't like giving refunds. They tend to assume you will keep bringing it back until they tweak it to your heart's content. I've only taken it back once - I tend to give up only when I read "cannot boot system halted" - so how many more times is reasonable? I get sick of showing up day after day - it makes me feel like I'm a bad computer owner or something.

Anyway thanks for all your help. I know this will sound strange, but a PC has never given me this much trouble before, and it's almost - fun - trying to work out what is wrong - I guess a few people here would understand that feeling. On the other hand the fact that I am $1500 out of pocket for this beast of a computer makes the experience unpleasant.

Lara

Lara,

My take on this is that if you want to mess around and troubleshoot a computer, I'd get some cheap used ones and pull them apart and switch the components around...have at it! That's why most of us are here...we enjoy the challenge along with helping folks out!

However, with $1500 out of pocket for a "project," this is not what you paid good money for! You could ask the regulars here and I doubt you'd find anyone who'd be willing to put up with the systematic crashes you're getting.

This is just my take on it. If I meet Pete our moderator on mIrc this evening I'll ask him to comment...you might want to print it out and bring it on in with you! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

Thankyou kindly Whyzman for your 'take'. I totally agree. It's too expensive to mess around with. Give me two weeks, don't forget me, and I'll let you know how it goes.
The downside to taking it back is that my boyfriend has been making fun of me recently, since he has a "Dell" which cost him the same amount and which scores...2000 on 3Dmark (compared to my 6500)- since dell has a policy of ramping up the CPU, calling it a supercomputer and putting in a videocard with an 'MX' suffix. But... his computer has worked without a hitch so I was hoping for a miracle here to prove him wrong.

I'll keep you posted,

Lara

Lara,

I realize folks are a little "Gun Shy" of digging in themselves and having a go at an IBUILTIT...but it is absolutely the way to go! You seem to have the necessary "spunk" to have a go at it since you express a desire to take on a challenge.

You get a lot more "bang for the buck" and get the components you want. The problem with a Dell or any other proprietary computer is that you're stuck with what they have to offer...and rather than sending back a component...you wind up sending back the whole computer. Kinda like the same reason the TV VCR combos are not such a good idea...you lose the function of both if one goes down cause the whole thing has to head into the shop!

For $1500 you could build your self one heck of a computer! With the PC Guide Forums as tech support it'd be a piece of cake! Plus you'd show up your boyfriend big time! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Take a check on PRICEWATCH (http://www.pricewatch.com) for the components you'd most like to have and compare pricing and I think you'll see what I mean.

And, yes, please let us know how things go! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

Sorry I'm having trouble working out the quote commands so this will look confusing.

Quotes: [_quote] copy & paste original here. [_/quote] Remove the underscores ( _ ) used here. When you post a message look to the left of the message composition box, check out the "click for details" links, they have excellent info on UBB codes.

1st, take this computer back and have them fix it, no matter what the boyfriend says. (hint...ignore it...if he knows it bothers you that's exactly what he wants.) Take it back until they DO fix it, or demand a refund.

Find out if the motherboard used requires 4 in 1 drivers, and whether they have been installed. Locking up like you describe is usually related to drivers or sometimes hardware the rest of the machine does not like. I have a Matrox Mystique video card that will work great under win95, but locks up win98 on 3 different computers. These lockups are exactly the same as yours, no mouse, no keyboard...

Having to shut it down after these lockups might be making it worse, by corrupting files used by whatever program is in use when it locks up and you have to power it down. It also could be causing physical damage to the hard drive, resulting in the errors scandisk finds. If scandisk is finding errors, it might even need to be replaced.

All I can do is guess at what components to replace, I would start with video or RAM. Replace one thing at a time.

I'm not sure what options are available there, but check to see if you have something equivalent to our better business bureau, they may not be able to intervene, but they can give the shop an unfavorable mark in their records and when others check into the reliability of that shop it will leave them looking questionable. Let them know you're doing it. Most businesses don't want unfavorable publicity.

The shop is responsible for making the computer work right. They took your good money, you should get a good computer. Period. Take it back until they get tired of seeing you, they will either fix it or replace it with one that works. When the boyfriend makes sarcastic remarks just say "So what?" and carry on...And wait till the first time he has a problem and has to take it back...

How many times do you take it back? As many as it takes. Until it works. If you decide to try for a refund, check into the local laws, you might have some legal ground to back you up.





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If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

Just had an idea that didn't occur before...

Right click My Computer, click Properties then the Performance tab, then the Graphics button. Lower the hardware acceleration and see if it makes any difference.

Also try running a selective startup:

Restart your computer, press and hold down the CTRL key until the Windows 98 Startup menu appears, and then choose Step-By-Step Confirmation .

Press Y at each prompt up to and including the "Load all Windows drivers?" prompt, and then press N to everything else. Note that you should make a list of all the items trying to load after this point. This prevents VxDs from loading and VxDs in the Windows\System\Vmm32 folder from overriding Windows internal VxDs (VxDs built into the Vmm32.vxd file).

(Copied from Troubleshooting Win98 Start Up Problems (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q188867))

Then add one item at a time at each boot until the problem shows up again, if this resolves it. That will isolate any VxD or driver problems.


------------------
If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

Ok, I have a couple of thoughts. First, it could be dodgy RAM. The memory may be corrupt, but not to the point of not working at all. The random crashes kind of point towards this kind of situation. Tell the morons that you insist they try different RAM.

Secondly, this could be a driver conflict issue, between the video card drivers and DirectX. Tell the morons to run DXDIAG and report to you what they find. In fact, stand right there while they do it, if possible.

Good luck. I know how aggravating an elusive problem is. The brake lights on my Caddy just up and quit working the other day. I have replaced fuses and all light bulbs without any luck. It's all a matter of trial and elimination. Next I will try a stoplight switch. You should have the morons swap out parts until they find the right part that works.

However, I would be very surprised to learn that it's a hardware based problem, unless the sparks caused some additional grief. Sure sounds to me like a DirectX problem.

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This space reserved for highly intelligent observations and witty remarks.

"After the wedding, we all went up to the conception room and had a big time up there"
-------- Tommy Smothers

Hi everyone,

I thought this forum was helpful - Whyzman certainly was yesterday, but then I realized the time differential and how most of you would have been asleep. Now that a day has passed, I'm pretty overwhelmed by all the responses, so I'll explain things a bit more.

I'm moving out of home in a few weeks. Presently the computer shop is a few blocks away, but in two weeks it will be a 1 hour train/car ride away, so, while I realize I should keep taking it back until they get it fixed, I think there should come a time when I can just say 'nope you've have a fair chance, I want a refund'. I don't think there's much chance they will do that though http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif The unwritten contract which seems to exist when you build your own computer is that it just has to work eventually, which, to a certain extent is fair enough if the components YOU have chosen just don't work together.
Incidentally Whyzman this was my one shot at building a supercomputer, and, in the land of kangaroos, what I got for $1500 US (or $2700 AU) is pretty good (Dells here are around $5500 AU for the same configuration). My boyfriend came over the first day, cranked up Medal of Honour to the maximum in 1024x768x32, and ran onto Omaha with no slowdown.

Anyway in relation to the hardware. To see if I could simulate crashing last night I set the computer to work ripping a DVD to VCD overnight - I woke up, I had a perfectly good VCD, no crash. This has me worried, because it has crashed before during that same operation. So now I'm at work and at home the computer is plugging away at itself on Unreal tournament - I'll see how it goes when I get home.

Paleo, I'm not sure what a 4 in 1 driver is, but the MB came with a CD which included drivers and it let me install everything except it failed to install some Win98SE DMA patch - maybe that indicates something.
I'm now leaning towards the theory that it's the hard-drive, last night I ran scandisk, and it found errors, and then I defragmented, and while I saw just two or three bad sectors it has worked great since as I said above. However my experience is that, with time and lots of restarts, errors crop up for no apparent reason. Entire folders have become corrupted etc., and even system files which causes a total lockup. Sounding more like the HD - there's more, when shutting down, if the system does it successfully, 50% of the time I get an auto scandisk when it restarts. If I have to shut it down after a freeze (by ripping out the power cord)it never runs scandisk on startup! As I've said already it's possible the damage to the hard-drive is a result not a cause of the freezing, but it's something they should replace surely?

Paleo, about turning down 'hardware acceleration' - yeh I've thought of that, but why pay for a fast computer to turn it down? Chips are never maxxed out anyway, this computer is not overclocked (although the graphics card has an easy option to do it) so why should I turn it down? I do remember reading on Tom's hardware that this vendor (Pixelview) sent them an hardware overclocked card - ? Rather than turning settings down though, isn't it grounds for me asking the store to put in a proper (Brandname) card?

BigBlue - I read a lot about RDRAM before I bought the comp, but when the DDR SDRAM motherboards came out and Tom's hardware had this graph with the 850i motherboard way out in front, I changed my mind. Is there a utility I could download (Norton diagnostics?) that could let me test RAM?

Also, I doubt it's a direct X problem, I've run the diagnostics several times and it seems to be working fine. Hardware conflict - possibly, but if there was a conflict, why does it run for a full 6 hours sometimes before a crash?

I'm definitely thinking it's the hard-drive now, perhaps caused by the earlier monitor sparking incident. This would explain why it can run for so long without problems, then one day 1 crash, the next day 2, and the next day when I turn it on a sys file has been corrupted and it asks me for a password (yes this did happen!).

Thanks for the advice, I'll try more things tonight and keep everyone posted.

Lara

Grab the drive manufacturers diagnostics.......I just built a machine fo my sister, and the HD was flaky. To make a long story short, the drive diagnostics allowed her to return it, under warranty.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

Okay, this is a bit embarrassing.

I said the other day I would try lots of things before a rigorous series of tests, and in fact I only did two things - I ran a thorough scan-disk, and then I ran disk defragmenter. Since then, I cannot replicate the freezing.

Yesterday the computer was on for over 24 hours - it converted a DVD to VCD, it player unreal tournament with itself for 7 hours, then I played Diablo2 for 4 hours, then watched DVD's and VCDs for another 2 or so etc.

It's a strange feeling, I'm glad it's working again, but I'd like to know why - because I'm curious and I still feel insecure.

Was it a virus, or the HDD? - perhaps it is evidence of a physically damaged drive, and all I've done is delay more crashes by shifting data away from the damaged area?

There is one more problem - I now have 3 "windows" folders on my HDD - one called ~windows which has nothing in it, one called windows which has about 10MB in it, and one called windows000 with about 500MB in it. Presumably these are the result of dodgy installs, but when / how / should i / which ones, should i delete?

I'd like the thank the forum members who've assisted me - it has saved me the humiliation of going back to the shop about ten times. You guys probably wouldn't understand, but technicians (in physical reality, not the nice ones on the net http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif) stare at you as a women, don't listen to a word you say, and assume whatever is wrong with the computer is your fault.

Lara

Lara,

Well, keep us posted as to how things go!

Oh, regarding the "Girl" thing...thought you might enjoy a recent After Hours Club (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000199.html) dealing with this very subject!

Some of the Geek Four Stars will need to address your recent questions...they ought to be making the rounds pretty quick! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

Hello Lara.
i think iam pretty late in to the discussion
but still i will try my best to help u out...
there are lots of reply ...does it help....?

I had almost a similar problem with my PIII 800mhz 810e chipset based motherboard sysytem....my system freezes and not even my mouse responds and
remains freezed untill i manually turn of the power...
i tried almost 6 months nailing down the problem and i finally found the problem in my motherboard...
(my motherboard has a integerated soundcard and videocard)
try doing this and if it works then the problem is certain to be either in the motherboard or videocard...
try to run ur system in 16 color mode...how u do it??
right click on ur desktop and go to properties->setting->color..
if ur system doesnt hang or less frequentlt then most certainly the problem is with the videocard..try changing it and it should be fine...
infact i was thinking abt posting the same ? to the forum...
if it worked mail me at <snvp@rediffmail.com>
all the best
Nagesh

hi lara,
i just read all the reply...
iam most certain the problem is with the videocard or motherboard..
i had the same problem..i cannot reinsatll my windows...the system freezes
so i have to boot from the floppy and install in the dos mode to reduce to
graphics work and it sometimes work...and i wasnt able to insatll Me atall
till i changed my motherboard...
tell me ur configuration...
do u have a seperate videocard(AGP) or a integerated one....?
Nagesh

I only have a minute for a quick update.

After running every application for over 24 hours, I've have since rebooted a few times and the problems seem to be creeping back. It hasn't frozen yet, but after a few good runs it is not shutting down properly (i have to rip out the plug) and it's running scandisk every time it starts up even when it is shutting down properly.

I know it's too early to tell if the other problems will resurface, but this has happened before - then you get freezing, then you get sys files corrupted, and then it won't even boot.

The way I understand it hardware works or it doesn't. 12 of the 24 hours it was on during it's flawless run conisted of an Australia heatwave (100 deg F) so I think I can rule that out. And how could hardware gradually deteriorate?

So, considering that it always runs well after every windows reinstall, or scandisk and defragment, surely it's the hard-drive? And surely I should just get the hard-drive replaced?

Getting closer I think,

Lara

After reading so much I believe most of the professionals here had covered most of the grounds. But just wanna add a bit of stuff.

After swapping your HDD (which I hope is the end of ur misery) and things still don't work out, U may wanna try these options. Remove ur sound card and run everything. Sometimes it may turn out to be some IRQ conflicts this can be helped by swapping slots http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

If u have an old video card use it. Try without the sound card and run. Then try with the sound card.

Well what I'm trying to drive at here is that to narrow down to ur components.

Hopefully u got the spares http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Since u say the lockup happens after quite sometime which i doubt ur "friendly" shop would be patient enough to wait.

-----
Sorry if I can't be of much help. :P

This is pretty drastic, but I am wondering if you should haul the puter back over to the shop..and demand that they wipe the hard drive and start over. I would recommend "monitoring" that process, so I am not sure if that's possible for you. I had numerous errors and missing files and so forth on my puter..built by shop in the city 50 miles away..and we tried various things for a month before returning it to shop and starting completely over. No more problems..and that was 2 1/2 years ago. My husband built a new puter recently..had conflicts and error reports. He ran through various troubleshooting things..and finally, in exasperation, just wiped the hard drive and started over. Problems fixed.
That Shutdown stuff worries me because we recently replaced a damaged hard drive for a guy who could never get ME to shutdown properly, so he got in the habit of just yanking the plug...sigh. We replaced the hard drive, and gave him a "lesson" on proper shutdown procedures.

If you glance through this shutdown troubleshooter (http://www.aumha.org/a/shutdown.htm), you will see that there are many things that contribute to that particular problem..and why your problem is difficult to narrow down. It could be bad RAM, driver conflict, etc as mentioned above.

My advice is just take it back and back until they fix it...while you still live close enough to make that easier to do. I understand what you said above, but if you take it back with the "Can you help me? This still isn't working right." attitude instead of "You guys really screwed something up! Fix this!"...well, that approach works very well for me. (Is it deceptive of me to pretend to be a helpless female? Yes, but hey..it also works, and we are "all" happy. Sorry..I know you disagree.)

[This message has been edited by kayofcircles (edited 03-22-2002).]

OK, sorry I didn't get back to this one earlier, haven't been keeping track as much as I should the past few days...

Couple of things though...My suggestion to try the hardware acceleration was a troubleshooting step. It can always be reset later, but when you have problems, that's one of the steps you need to take to isolate the problem.

Hard drive...It might seem like a catch 22, but if you have a new machine with a new hard drive, it shouldn't develop bad clusters in a month. If the bad clusters are a result of other problems with the machine, it's still the responsibility of the shop that built it to make it work right, and without bad spots on the hard drive. If that means they have to replace the hard drive, it might sound cold, but they should have made it work right to begin with.

Take it back while you can and don't give up until it works right.

nexis9 "U" is not a word. "Ur" is not a word. Type the other two letters.

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If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

Sorry Pete, I was being lazy to use "U" for you and "ur" for your. Because I'm at work and when I had to leave my desk on and off so its a form of convenience on my side. Sorry for the inconvenience and occassional bad spellings. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

hello you could run dxdiag program your self,by going to start,run, type in dxdiag than enter. if that one dont work type dxdiag.exe


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resistance is invigorateing lol

Dear helpers,

While printing yesterday it froze with word and powerpoint open.
Last night it froze during Medal of Honour.
And then I scanned the disk and found errors!
I backed up my files and took it back today.
I had a long talk with the manager about all the events leading up to this point. I was friendly and non-confrontational, I actually said they could have it for a week if need be. I explained how the fault is infrequent (1-6hours) but gets worse with number of restarts not with time spent on. And while I explained my suspicion it's the hard-drive I also stressed that the damage to the hard-drive may be a result of other faults not the cause of other faults.
Oh and then the manager asked me to explain all that to the technician - so I told him that I had placed a readme file in the middle of the desktop outlining the same.
I'm expecting a call in a day or so saying they have fixed the fault, and then I'm expecting to take it back again a few days after that to prove them otherwise. Even if they cannot replicate the freezing, I'm sure I can, and then the damage to the hard-drive is very obvious so I'll take it straight back. I won't be satisfied until they replace something.

Just an afterthought - I am very pleased I got RD-RAM. I know it's dodgey, and the company and its practices make Microsoft look good, but that is precisely the point. Once the RD-RAM was decided on, this two-bit shop then had to get an Intel MB and a P4, i.e. there is 0 flexibility. When they did have flexibility - e.g., with the kind of Geforce3, they gave me the dodgiest brand, and have probably done the same with the hard-drive. I'd like to think all these problems have been caused by my good components destroying their crappy components because the crappy components cannot keep up. If this takes 6 more months and I end up with all new brandname components, then I'll be happy. Of course if it turns out the RD-RAM is at fault, then I'll trade it in for a sewing machine.

I'll keep you posted,

Lara

They just rang me and they are replacing the Hard-drive. The guy said it had 9 bad sectors which means nothing to me but apparently it's serious and unusual.

Lara

On a huge gig HD 9 bad sectors really isn't that bad, if the drive has been in service for a while...but, on a new drive ther should be no bad sectors. a bad sector is basically a spot on the drive that cannot hold data, or be read at all...a dead spot.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

By replacing the hard drive, they will have to do a fresh install so I am hopeful your problem will be solved thereby. (Please do come back and let us know.) I have a sewing machine, and it is most useful, but it just can't do some of the cool things my puter can! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Okay here's the latest report.

After they put the new hard-drive in, I had the easter weekend to test it, which I certainly did. It ran like a dream for the first two days. Then, it began to crash in Flight Sim 2002 - at this stage I could not get it to crash it any other software. All up it crashed 4 times over the weekend, always in Flight Sim 2002.

So when I got back I installed unreal tournament and it started crashing again. First within an hour, then only 5 minutes later, and it crashed again during flight sim and again during a thorough scandisk (with no other programs open).

AT this stage I installed norton antivirus and scanned ths disk and found nothing. Then I uninstalled it. I also uninstalled the intel ATA ultra hard-drive driver or something - although when I restarted the comp promptly reinstalled it - and it crashed even faster then anyway.

Most times I have scanned the disk it has errors and these are of the following type:

*lost file fragment(s) which are almost always around 45000bytes.
*cross-linked files (such as .ini and .sys files)
*errors with the boot sector

It's back at the shop now but I've almost had it. What's infuriating is that it sometimes runs for 8 hours without a problem and then it goes through a bad patch and crashes all the time.

Oh and one more symptom - often when it shuts down properly (turns itself off) it runs a scandisk on startup, and if I run another scandisk once windows has started it inevitably finds an error.

For those who came in late this can't be the hard-disk as it's already been replaced. I've also run directx tests and they all pass and there are NO exclamation marks or conflicts reported. What is it?

Lara

Hi Lara

Its truely unfortunate of you.

Well since you have already changed the HDD the only best possible problem I could only think of is probably hardware or sofware conflict. By the way, when you say crash, is it the Blue Screen Of Death or it just hangs.

If possible I would suggest you run your PC with minimum software first. Eg. You install all your drivers and do some scandisk shutdowns and ups. Install maybe one game at a time and run. Sometimes its a combo of two games that don't "like" each other. Run for a day each game, meaning you play it for about 5 hours if not just leave it idle. Until you can find your problematic software.

I hope this helps. I understand its must be very frustrating for you. Wish you good luck~!!!

im having the same problem, my hd light stays on constantly and it freezes, i reformatted 3 or 4 times still it keeps hanging, i thhink i have fried the mb, cpu and hd, i took my hd out and put it in a working computer, still hung up, took a working fine hd and put it with my mb, cpu and it hung there also. so im thinking the mb and hd are gone. i have a fan on my cpu and the power supply i also have a fan attached to the case but that one wasnt hooked up, so do u think i have fried my pc, i sure hope not i just got it 2 months ago, alos i left my computer on constantly. please help

Ladyboo,

Your computer should still be under warranty. Send it back to the supplier for repair or replacement.

i cant send it back i built it myself i only bought the parts a couple of months ago, i purchased the chip, md and new case all other components i kept

Just three belated thoughts (simple ones I admit). http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
(1) ..there's more, when shutting down, if the system does it successfully, 50% of the time I get an auto scandisk when it restarts. If I have to shut it down after a freeze (by ripping out the power cord)it never runs scandisk on startup..
ScanDisk Runs Even Though Windows Shut Down Correctly (Q273017) (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q273017)

(2) Which versions of DirectX and IE do you have installed?

(3) It would appear you have always reinstalled "over" rather than done clean reinstalls; not generally recommended after corruption has set in.

Post Edit. Quote:- "During a HDD format it crashed" - This seems unusual, maybe real gurus can explain.


[This message has been edited by Paul Komski (edited 04-03-2002).]

Hey Lara,
Just read thru all of this again. Hope I haven't missed anything, but here are a couple more questions for you.
When they installed the new HDD, did they do a fresh install of everything or did they copy an image of your old drive? (did you still have all your progs and files?)
Has you PSU been tested for continuous adiquate voltage?
When the computer is working OK, test the air temp at the PSU fan with the back of your hand, when it locks, test again immediatly.

Good luck http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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A real Christian is one who can give his pet parrot to the town gossip.
Frank's Place (http://dreamwater.net/tech/frankscomp/)

Dear helpers,

Thanks everyone for recommending things I should do - but clearly since it's a new computer I have no intention of doing much, except for perhaps identifying the problem.
To respond to the latest recommendations, the new hard-drive came with a completely fresh install of directx and everything else.

At the moment the pc is still at the shop and will stay there being tested for another week. They are finally starting to take me seriously, considering how much time it is taking, and I have mentioned the phrase "full refund" several times.
My last visit they told me they had confirmed the freezing (total freezing, no blue screens) - and it was happening every 5 hours or so on the 3dmark demo and unreal tournament. Gee thanks I already knew that. They suspect hardware, duh, and suspect the videocard. Another fan had been installed - as they had noticed it never froze when the lid was off.
Their other hypothesis was that it is just a bad card. They had replaced it with a geforce4mx, and it hadn't frozen yet last I heard. (and for the 3D boffins, the ge4mx is benchmarking at 5400, as compared to 6500 for the ge3ti200)
Of course these are all just wild hypotheses - it's very hard to test these when the baseline crash rate is anywhere between 5 and 32 hours.

As for my queries about the hard-drive errors I've been told it has nothing to do with the problem except that it means I haven't been shutting down properly when it freezes - 'and what about errors when I do shut down properly?' I asked, 'well that's just windows98', they replied.
Since I've been running 98 for 5 years on my other computer, I must have missed the endless errors generated every single restart. I.e., I'm extremely skeptical about their dismissal of this problem.

I'll keep you posted. Any more advice would be appreciated, but at this stage I'm just letting everyone know how it ends (if it ever does) for the benefit of the collective understanding.

Lara

Hi Laura,

That was the logest thread I have yet read! Your last post gave me 2 clues that should be investigated. If it never freezes with the case open, then it sure appears like a heating or poor circulation problem. You might see if they have a case that has better air circulation. Also here in the US they have a product called 2coolpc. Try www.2coolpc.com (http://www.2coolpc.com) and see if that may help. The person who mentioned the powersupply could also be correct. I was having problems connecting to the internet (see the thread Modem Madness) but that appears to be solved by removing the power supply unit and blowing canned air through it. The point being that lots of times problems that don't seem to have any logical solutions turn out to be subtle powersupply problems. You may want to have them swap out a new power supply, or repace it with one with a higher wattage rating.

Good Luck to you!
Steve

Originally posted by Lara:
Hi all,

I'm a newbie to the forum, and I've spent a month trying to get my new computer to work to no avail.
I just want to start by saying, if this were overheating - everything would make sense, because it crashes all the time, regardless of the software running. However it has crashed at least twice within 15min of startup (on very cold mornings), and then anywhere between 1 and 8 hours.

Crashing consists always of a total freeze with nothing responding (no keyboard or mouse). And if a sound is playing (in a game) it will loop, or create a bizarre collage of every sound file in the software (hard to explain I know but it sounds hideous).

It crashes (freezes):

During Diablo2
During DVD playback
Unreal tournament
Medal of Honour
Mpeg2 to Mpeg1 encoding (a real pain when a 12 hour conversion is nearly finished)
Video capture (via USB)
Playing a sound file on the desktop.
Civilisation3
During a windows reinstallation it crashed.
During a HDD format it crashed.

NB: it has never crashed when on the desktop without sound or video - however this is not a work computer so it seems the amount of time I spend on each task determines when it crashes.

Here are the specs:

Windows 98SE
Intel 850i MB
P4-1800
Creative Audigy (the no frills version) with the latest drivers
'Pixelview' (i.e. cheapo) Geforce3 ti200
a 40GB hard-drive (can't remember brand)
256MB RDRAM
a no frills network card

It's a beast in terms of performance - scoring about 6500 on 3Dmark - but who cares if it keeps crashing. Again, it would make perfect sense if it were overheating, but can a PC with a overheating problem really overheat within 15min on a cold morning?

Since I'm new to the forum I don't know what the extent of expertise/ assitance offered is, but since it's brand new, all I need is a vague idea of which component is messing up. I suspect soundcard - but it's a brand-name. I also suspect the HDD is perhaps not keeping up (it has some fancy intel DMA drivers), the HDD also frequently has errors under scandisk, although I think this may be a result of the freezing and not a cause, as when I was formatting it once the computer froze. It would be great if I could write the whole system off and get an Xbox, but computer shops don't do refunds - so what should I get them to replace?

Any help, or just consolation will be warmly appreciated http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


Lara

Originally posted by Lara:


I had the same prob in win 2k Pro there were possibly several causes but the cure was to check Device manager and see if you have any IRQ conflicts. I had 4 devices assigned to one IRQ.

Lara,

I've not had anything more to specifically contribute, however, I have been monitoring your progress.

Most impressive how you're handling things at the shop! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif You've a cheering section here at my house! My daughter says: "You go girl!" http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
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Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

Hi in general mentioned question is extremely interesting
And if someone else have different experience,please inform us.
4 months ago, I for the first time build my own computer and after,
1 month struggled with freezing.I know its a horrible thing.
I have won finnaly but I don't know the true reason.
I have noticed that after impact on a table or knoking on to case freezing
Became frequent.
At random has taken out memory and inserted it back.
It has helped before the following impact on a table but without impact
don'nt freezed any more.
Also suspected display driver cos the system demanded
its installation frequently.That wos fixed by new driver from Nvidias site

Latest update on this saga.

They still have the computer. The guy now doesn't think it is the video-card, but the RDRAM. He did mention however that I might want to consider paying $50 more for a 'more stable videocard' which set me off. I angrily pointed out that the computer cost $3000, and has never worked, and if, at the time I was paying they had mentioned 'oh by the way the Geforce3ti200 you specified, well we picked the crappiest brand possible, but if you ever have any trouble with it, pay us more to install a better brand !' - then I never would have paid. They responded to my outburst appropriately with endless apologies, but what a hide they must have.

The summary of all his error reports now is that it is ram or overheating or both. It will sit in the shop for another week.

I'll keep you posted.

Lara

Well I said earlier in this mammoth post that if the problem was caused by dodgey RD-Ram I'd by an xbox or sewing machine or something like that.

Well it looks like it was the RD-Ram. Perhaps it was the RD-Ram overheating, or just dodgey Ram, or perhaps it was damaged by all the earlier messing about. Either way the computer shop says it is working now the Rd-Ram has been replaced so I'll have the weekend to test it.

So, hopefully my next post will end this thread, and it will go something like 'everything works fine now...', but forgive me for being skeptical.
I will send that post early next week.

Lara

'Everything works fine now'

Well it does, and the computer is not freezing anymore so long as:

1. the lid is off
2. a fan is blowing into the computer

So actually I'm still not satisfied - I mean should I accept a US$1500 computer which needs a fan blowing onto it, or should I demand extra cooling at no extra cost? They have already placed an additional array of fans on the front (fits into a CD tray and seems to cool the harddrive more than anything) but it still crashes even with the lid off and no additional fan!

So I don't think I need any more hardware advice from the forum for the time being. So a big thankyou to everyone who tried to help http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif
And the moral of the story: don't buy RD-Ram, or if you do, make sure a fan is blowing onto it !

Lara

And it only took 6 weeks...geez...

OK...it's still crashing...it's still under warranty...go back and read my first post. It's not fixed, keep taking it back. The shop sold you a computer under the assumption that it was to be a functional, working, trouble free computer. It is not. That's what warranties are for.

The bottom line is:

THEY built it, THEY sold it to you for a large sum of money, THEY have not fixed it. Continued crashes will result in damage to yet another hard drive, if it does not have bad spots already, and continued crashes are NOT what you paid for.

I guess some businesses are run by boneheads, sometimes you have to be a real nuisance before they will actually do the job right. As long as the computer is still under warranty and still has problems, take ir repairs and don't touch anything yourself, at this point they would probably love to find any little thing to void your warranty and write it off.

It sounds like you still have heat and/or RAM problems, possibly power supply in the mix too. Keep showing up with the same problems, let them know it never was fixed, and eventually they will have to either fix it or trade it for another one that does work. They WILL get tired of seeing you sooner or later, and come up with an agreeable solution.

It's not over till the fat lady sings...and I ain't heard her yet...

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If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif Oh, my! You know, Lara -- as possibly unsympathetic as this may sound -- I got a *lot* of comfort from reading your saga! Gosh; A third of the way through, I was wondering if it would be appropriate to post a reply [thinking that the last reply in the thread was more than a couple weeks ago] -- but no! It lasted, as Pete said, for 6 weeks!

It's frusterating when the problem doesn't stay consistent, huh? Well, I'm glad you got a... well, .. a semi-conclusion. I'm facing a problem that isn't consistent either, and I'm also facing poor tech support. [Too bad it's a buy-direct computer, and I have no "shop" to trek it to].

Anyhow, I just wanted to tell you that I was quite happily reading the huge saga, and I'm glad you got tough with them, and things seem to be working out to a degree, now. It was quite interesting to read 6 weeks worth of posts! :-)

And I bet you feel better, too, now that you're getting someplace, eh?

Paleo Pete - I agree, they built it and it didn't work.

So, last week it starting crashing with the lid of and the fan blowing into it. Heat was clearly not the only problem. I remembered Paleo's post and realized that 3 months of taking it back and 3 months of having it crashing randomly was enough.

They had replaced: the ram, the hard-drive, the videocard, the case, and the power supply. None of this solved the problem.
As far as I was concerned I had done much more than any reasonable customer might be expected to do, and I never remembered signing a contract saying that a computer that never worked from day 1 could be repaired at their pleasure however long it took. If if had worked for just 6 months, then I had maintenance problems - that would be different - but this was either a hardware defect they had taken too long to discover, or simply a mistake in the configuration.

I took it back. They have verbally agreed to a full refund. I am watching my bank account http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I am very happy that no matter how traumatic my experience has been, others might learn from it thanks to the PC guide forum. I extend my heartfelt thanks to all those who helped me try to work out what it was, but in the end this was a NEW computer, so we never really had to work it out.

Oh just one more question: What's more RELIABLE: a Playstation 2, Xbox, or gamecube ?

Lara

Lara;
From somebody who builds computers and networks for a living(well if you want to call it that).A:1500$,you can build alot better set-up.The people who built your system,should have been kicked in the butt!!!B:Frist of all,have you got a temp. on the C.P.U.?(most new M/B's you can find it in the BIOS)
C:Just for fun and games,check out the fans;if the P/S fan pulls to the back,then the fan on the front of the case should blow in,and the other on the back should blow out,,(Grr,the fan on the C.P.U. is running,,,right????)
OK,if it's not a temp. thing I would be looking fo a short on the mother board(main Board),if it's shorted,tell them to change the M/B(sorry if it got shorted,nothing but problems)
Bottom Line,it's always better to build your own.You Know what is in the system,you know what(? well,you have)a idea what is wrong.If nothing else it's much more fun to build your own.
For your last qustion,I've had a P/S2 for awhile(well ok,I bought it the day it came out http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif),no real problems,,just wish they,would have made sure ALL the P/S1 games would play on P/S2


Matt D

I am conflicted on this one. I am very sorry your new puter was such a piece of "you know what" but pleased that you're supposed to get all your money back on it. And, you will have learned quite a bit about puters and about NOT pounding on people in frustration in the process. And, hopefully, your next puter will be a dream come true..particularly "compared" to this one. Good luck! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif