I am trying to bail out a cyber-clueless friend who has a Samsung SP2014N HDD that is *extremely* Trojan-infested, and would like to zero-fill it.

The instructions on the Samsung "utilities" web page seem to be inconsistent and incorrect. They direct me to download the file Hutil_creator.exe, but there is no link to do that. The only file available is a different name, hutil 200.exe.

It took me awhile to figure out that, unlike all other HDD manufacturers, this utility does not put itself on a dos bootable floppy that it creates. The files have to be copied onto a floppy that is already bootable.

But I did finally manage to run the utility. However, contrary to the instructions on that web page, it has no option to zero-fill, only low-level format. This seems to write nonzero patterns to the disk. And in addition, it got about one-quarter of the way through the drive and froze.

Anybody know what am I missing? Do I have the wrong version of the utility? Where would I find the correct one?

Thank you,
Ted

I found this (http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/tech_info/hdd/b2c_hdd_hutil.jsp?eUser=) by following the links on their website. Products, Hard disk drives, then a "Diagnostic" link button thing on the left side of the hard drive page. That's a rough explanation, anyway. In any case, both hutil 200 and hutil_creator seem to do basically the same thing. I guess it's difficult to figure out your problem without knowing more about the hardware.

Thanks so much for responding.

I found this (http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/tech_info/hdd/b2c_hdd_hutil.jsp?eUser=) by following the links on their website. Products, Hard disk drives, then a "Diagnostic" link button thing on the left side of the hard drive page. That's a rough explanation, anyway.Yep, that's where I got what I got.

In any case, both hutil 200 and hutil_creator seem to do basically the same thing.One would hope so, but the menus I get don't match the pictures on their web page. There is no "ERASE HDD" option under "TOOLS".

I guess it's difficult to figure out your problem without knowing more about the hardware.What else is there to know? As I said, it's a Samsung SP2014N (I think it's 40 gig), and I just want to set it to zeroes.

Thanks,
Ted

What else is there to know?Is it SATA or PATA? What hardware is in the system you're trying to zero-fill it from? Is it an older computer, the original computer, an OEM computer, your computer? Is the BIOS up-to-date? These things can all affect the reason why the utility is freezing up.

I guess at this point, I would hook that hard drive up to my system and use WinXP's Drive Manager to delete the partition(s). Then put it back into the original system and reinstall Windows (using a non-quick format). As long as the drive isn't going anywhere, this would be an immediate fix to the problem.

As to the root of the problem of how to zero-fill a Samsung hard drive, this will require some more research. I myself have a 120GB SATA Samsung, so maybe I'll email them about this...

Found this. http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/support/faqs/faqs_20000120_0000000036.htm

It should do what you want. It says it will restore the disk to factory condition.

Actually the "low level format" that you see on the utilities is Zero filling. As you will see in the link true LLF is not possible outside of the factory on modern drives. But the Zero fill utility is often wrongly referred to as LLF, even by the drive manufacturers.

Hope that helps.

I am trying to bail out a cyber-clueless friend who has a Samsung SP2014N HDD that is *extremely* Trojan-infested, and would like to zero-fill it.
Without getting into the specifics of the differences between writing patterns, zeros or low level formats - it seems that you just want to eradicate malware by "zeroing" your 200GB PATA (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/SpinPointPSeries/HardDiskDrive_SpinPointPSeries_SP2014N.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsamsung%2BSP2014N%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D).

The "quick way to do this is to just zero the mbr from a DOS boot floppy (like you have already used for the Samsung utility) using a utility such as MBRwork from http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html - you could go one more step and zero the embr (essentially the whole of the first track of the HDD) with the same utility. The drive should then behave as if it is a new drive and there is really no reason to zero any more of the drive unless you are trying to make data unrecoverable for privacy reasons.

You could also run the Samsung Diagnostics and then read or copy its log file from the floppy diskette. The fact that you think this is a 40GB drive gives added credence to the possibility that your BIOS does not support such a large HDD.

Ok, thanks very much for all your suggestions. Now it is my turn to grovel. I am suffering from serious senior moments.

I looked at the Samsung utility on a different day and saw how to make the zero-fill function work. I did indeed get the entire hard drive zeroed.

But now I have another problem: I went to partition, format and re-install Windows on it, and nothing on this computer is seeing past 8 Gig of that hard drive: the bios, booting into dos (via the Windows 98 floppy), booting to Partition Magic from the floppy, or booting from the Windows install CD.

It is a Samsung SP2104N 200 Gig HDD, 7200rpm, 8M buffer, PATA. He bought the computer in 1999, I think. The motherboard is ASUS P3B-F Pentium III 500 mHz, with an Award Medallion Bios V6.0, revision 1004.

I have read a lot about LBA and the techniques used to get around the various barriers, and I understand the theory (I'm a mainframe assembler programmer, so I understand about addressing limitations). But I haven't been able to find enough specific information about implementation to solve my problem.

The most confusing thing to me is that there is a second drive on this machine, 13.6 Gig, that is being recognized correctly by the bios. So the bios is definitely capable of seeing past 8 Gigs.

It's entirely possible that this friend has never been able to use more than 8 Gig on the 200 Gig HDD. He wouldn't have known the difference.

I know there is a 137 Gig barrier. If we could get up to that, he would be fine. If anyone has any ideas, or can direct me to a site with better explanations, I would be most grateful.

Thanks,
Ted

I had a problem [now solved] that may [or not] have a similar cause.
Only 32 GB of an 80 GB Maxtor HDD was being seen when I moved the drive off the on-board IDE controller on a board with a BIOS that it turns out could only address 32 GB of HDD space, to a PCI IDE Controller Card.

1. When I'd originally fitted the HDD to the on-board controller, I must have "Set the Drive Size", and "MaxBlast 4" set the drive to report its size as 32 GB to match what the BIOS could address.
So now every BIOS saw the drive as 32 GB.
But MaxBlast installed Dynamic Drive Overlay that overcame the limitation to enable full use of the drive capacity.

2. To fix it I had to zero-fill the drive, then "Set the Drive Size" to its "Native LBA Number" [MaxBlast detected and displayed this after zero-filling and I ok'd it]. After this was done the IDE controller card [it would be the same for another PC's unlimited BIOS] could see the full size of the drive.

So did anyone at any time set up this drive for use on a motherboard with an 8 GB BIOS limitation?

Thanks. Naah, the drive is set to max size of 200 gig, verified in the manufacturer's utility. There's even a "reset native default" or something like that, that comes up with 200 gig.

Is the BIOS set to auto-detect the HDD or are the drive parameters set manually?

And the "limitation Jumper" isn't set?

Just because the 13.6 gig is seen OK doesnt mean that there is not a bios limitation since that drive could be using DDO (Dynamic Drive Overlay).

Samsung's page on capacity barriers = http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/support/faqs/faqs_20050422_0000115201.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsamsung%2BSP2014N%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D which is in line with Sylvander's recommendations.

The Samsung utility should of course be able to read the drive's firmware and dig out its full capacity even if the BIOS has a capacity barrier problem that doesnt see all of the drive.

Is the BIOS set to auto-detect the HDD or are the drive parameters set manually?Auto-detect.

And the "limitation Jumper" isn't set?No, I checked that too. Anyway, I think the limitation would be 32 gig, not 8.

Thanks

Just because the 13.6 gig is seen OK doesnt mean that there is not a bios limitation since that drive could be using DDO (Dynamic Drive Overlay).I also slapped in a 60-gig and an 80-gig drive from my other machine and it saw the entire capacity just fine. And I know neither of those has DDO.

That web page is interesting, in a general way. What is Disk Manager?

I'm trying to work up the nerve to do a bios update. Are there really reasonable alternatives that might get him access to the whole drive?

Thanks

"What is Disk Manager?"
It is Samsung's version of "Ontrack Disk Manager", which is like Maxtor's MaxBlast program.
They set up a HDD for use, which includes installing a DDO and partitioning & formatting.
I have a "Disk Manager v9.47" floppy in front of me [my older PC has a Samsung HDD], but I've never used it to "Set Drive Size". Have used it to install a DDO.

I also slapped in a 60-gig and an 80-gig drive from my other machine and it saw the entire capacity just fine. And I know neither of those has DDO.
Unless being larger than 137 GB is causing the BIOS to hiccup there is no barrier under the 137 GB limit on the hardware.

I would try the drive in another modern pc and if you get a similar response consider returning it - even if the diagnostics say the drive is OK. Either that or try a PCI expansion card or the disk manager option.

I contacted Maxtor about my 80 GB drive showing only 32 GB and asking for instructions on how to "Set the Drive Size".
Instead of giving me the instructions they said my perfectly good drive was "defective" and offered to send out a replacement in advance of me sending back my existing drive by return, but only if I gave them credit card details as security.
I pointed out that I'd now fixed the drive and why didn't they give me the instructions I'd asked for.
Answer was that their technicians' advice [which was totally inappropriate] had failed to produce a fix, so the next logical step was a replacement.

Not a very good performance. :(

Hope any contacts you make produce a more effective response.

Unless being larger than 137 GB is causing the BIOS to hiccup there is no barrier under the 137 GB limit on the hardware.There is (or was) an 8 gig barrier, isn't there? It seems to me that's exactly what's going on. I wouldn't call it a hiccup, but it seems pretty clear that this bios can't make sense out of a drive bigger than 137 GB, and displays it as 8.

I am still considering a bios update. He is on version 1004, and I have 1006 downloaded and poised to flash. The 1006 description didn't mention anything about this problem, but I heard in another forum that 1005 did. So that gives me a little confidence that a bios update might actually address this problem. I may try it.

Meantime, we did some gerrymandering and trial-and-error last night and managed to get a Windows install:

1. Put the HDD in my slightly newer computer, which recognized its full capacity, and partitioned it into 20 and 180 GB chunks with Partition Magic.

2. Pop it back into my friend's computer. Partition Magic gave a "bad partition table" error.

3. Deleted both partitions (!) with fdisk from a Windows 98 startup floppy.

4. Booted from the Windows 2000 CD and executed a fixboot from the recovery console.

5. Started an install from the Windows 2000 CD. It still saw the 2 partitions we thought we deleted (!!), and gave us the opportunity to format. We formatted the 20 gig primary partition, and from there the install proceeded normally.

<shrug>

Still can't run Partition Magic, but otherwise Windows seems ok. We may just punt. We've already spent more time on this than we should have.

Thanks very much for your thoughts,
Ted

"What is Disk Manager?"
It is Samsung's version of "Ontrack Disk Manager", which is like Maxtor's MaxBlast program.
They set up a HDD for use, which includes installing a DDO and partitioning & formatting.Thanks. I've never used one of these to set up a HDD.

they said my perfectly good drive was "defective"Doesn't that kind of stuff drive you nuts?

"Partition Magic gave a "bad partition table" error"
When I used "MaxBlast 4" to partition and format their Maxtor HDD, then "Partition Magic" wouldn't work. It [PM] reported that it had detected a DDO on the drive that was not running and so refused to work unless I ran the DDO first. But so far as I knew, no DDO had been installed because it wasn't needed due to being Partitioned & formatted by MaxBlast whilst connected to a new IDE controller card..
To get "Partition Magic" to work I had to use fdisk to partition and "format.com" to format. Aren't these things weird? :confused:

"Put the HDD in my slightly newer computer, which recognized its full capacity"
You are luckier than I was. I could get nothing [no other BIOS] to see anything other than 32 GB.
I see why you think this a significant clue. An indicator that this is a property/characteristic of the problem PC's BIOS.

Update:

Because of the above-mentioned gerrymandering, something was still wrong underneath, and eventually it came back to bite me. I reformatted one of the other partitions in preparation for installing a second copy of Windows, and then the primary Windows wouldn't boot at all. I did work up the nerve to flash the bios from rev 1004 to 1006. It was successful but didn't help. That machine still couldn't see past 8 GB on that drive.

So I did what I probably should have done 10 days ago ... give up, swap HDDs with him, and start over. I took his big drive (which my computer has no trouble with) and gave him an 80 gig Western Digital HDD we had lying around (which *his* computer has no trouble with). Things then went smoothly, and he has his computer back.

Thanks for your attention and patience,
Ted

Hopefully, one of these days the significance of all of this will become clear. :D

Hopefully, one of these days the significance of all of this will become clear. :DSignificance of which?

Sorry to grumble, but sometimes it seems this kind of stuff is way more difficult than it ought to be. It ain't rocket science.

"Significance of which?"
Why it is that only 8 GB of a 200 GB HDD is being seen.
I discovered why it was happening with my HDD, so I learned the significance of the strange event I was seeing. If I hadn't [like in your case] I'd have had a big question in my mind waiting for an answer.

"sometimes it seems this kind of stuff is way more difficult than it ought to be"
Seems that the more simple you want to make computers in use, the more complex the workings need to be, so the harder it is to make them reliable and predictable in operation.

"It ain't rocket science."
Computers nowadays are a LOT more complicated than the ones they used to go to the moon [so I've heard].
Seems like there are so many possible software interactions that it's well nigh impossible to predict all the events likely to occur. The software makers just have to wait and see what happens in use.
Seems complicated enough to me.

BIOS handling of "oversized" disks (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/sizeHandling-c.html)

Sorry, I'll have to defer replying to this one in depth until I have time to really get on my soap box. My perspective is that of 25 years' production mainframe application development and support. So my expectations of software quality, dependability and "knowability" are admittedly a little different than today's typical hacker nerd. Some points off the top of my head:

1. What I really meant was "it doesn't have to be rocket science .. if done right!"
2. "Complex" does not have to mean "difficult".
3. You hit the nail on the head about unpredictable software interaction. That's part of the problem. But it's not because computers are complicated. It's trying to use all sorts of different software, written by God knows who, of God knows what quality, that may or may not be thorough and clean up after itself.

A smooth-running dependable computer requires management. This task used to be handled by a specialized staff. Now, in the PC world, it's been dumped in the lap of end users, who, despite Bill Gates' Pollyanna attitude, are not up to it. That's asking for trouble.

Aahhh, I already said too much. Later.