Lockups on boot

[Gaidal]

Hi guys.

I'm really frustrated with this recent problem I've been having with my computer.

Basically, whenever I cold boot the computer in the morning, it'll lock up either when it's loading Windows up, or within 1-2 minutes of being on. Usually I can restart the computer and it will be stable the rest of the day. However, recently, it seems the problem has gotten worse. When I go to restart the computer after a lockup it won't ever make it past the Windows splash screen. The only thing that seems to "fix" it is if I walk away from it for a few hours or basically take it apart and put in each PCI device I have in one at a time.

I thought it was perhaps an IRQ conflict, but I've rearranged my cards one by one at least twice now and it doesn't seem to alleiviate the problem. Can anyone help me before I throw this thing out a window? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif Interestingly enough though, when it does boot up fine, the system is rock stable all day, no crashes or continued problems.

AMD Thunderbird 950 (using 300W Power Supply in a Fong Kai FK-603)
Asus A7V v. 1.005c
256 MB Kingston RAM
Maxtor Diamond Plus 40.0 GB hard drive
Sound Blaster Live! Platinum
USR 56k Modem
3COM Network card

[Reid]

I have seen that the Sound Blaster Live is related to a lot of IRQ problems, and also the SB Live has problems when ACPI is enabled (during Windows installation). I'd try uninstalling the sound card, then run for a while to see if that narrows the problem. Check Deja (http://www.deja.com) and search with +sb +live +irq. You'll see how common the problem is. If you have an AGP video card, it is sometimes recommended not to use the PCI slot nearest the AGC slot.

One solution posted was:
"1. Uninstall SB Live
2. Disable your Onchip Sound and ACPI Power Mangement in your BIOS.
Also if you have a Sound Blaster Option disable that too!
3. Boot up into windows
4. Install SB Live with a custom installation and do not install the
SB Dos Drivers
5. Reboot Immediately (right after installation) in to Safe Mode and
disable the SB16 Emulation in Device Manager
6. Reboot

Also have the SB Live card in PCI Slot2"


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reido@my-deja.com

Friends don't let friends load Windows ME

[Gaidal]

Hm, thanks I'll give that a try tomorrow and check back tomorrow.

Also, I'm not sure if this is relevent, but I have ASUS Probe running and usually 2-3 times a day it will pop up and report a voltage spike. I'm not sure if that's normal or not. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif However, 95% of the time the voltage is perfectly normal.

[Reid]

A power supply problem is a possibility. There might even be short duration spikes that the monitor is missing, since the monitor circuit may only have one analog to digital converter and may have to sequentially scan the voltages.

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reido@my-deja.com

Friends don't let friends load Windows ME

[Gaidal]

Any way I can test the integrity of the power supply?

Logically, it seemed like a hardware problem to me. No big software adjustments were made prior to these "lockups" happening. I mean it makes sense to me that if I'm having an IRQ problem, it'd be something that continues to happen, not something that springs up.

The other thing being that once the system is up for more than 15 minutes, it's completely stable. Almost like it has to reach a hurdle or something to operate normally!

BUT no problems so far today. We'll see if things continue to be OK. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[mjc]

Check all connections to and from the power supply. It sounds as if something with the PS maybe loose and when it warms up then makes good contact. 15 minutes sounds about right to get up to normal operating temp.

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mjc

[Reid]

I agree with mjc, and from my experience with TV repair, I think a bad solder joint in the power supply is likely. Common problems are "cold" solder joints (those not heated sufficiently when soldered) and thermal stress cracks that often occur around power resistor connections, diodes, and large components, like capacitors and heat sinks. Getting someone to repair it might be close to the price of a new one.

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reido@my-deja.com

Not quite right since 1948

[Gaidal]

Well this problem seems to be coming into focus now, I think.

I recall when I took this computer home, it sat in the back of a truck with the wind blowing on it for 3 hours. I'm sure that was enough to probably weaken an already existing problem with it.

Not to mention, this power supply doesn't seem to be AMD approved. I think I'm probably better off just buying a new one because, as you said, the cost of repair is probably almost what a new one would cost!

[HeKmeH]

1st of all hi all this is my 1st posting in this interesting discussion forum u have which my brother in france Bern told me bout, happy to be here.
As for this problem I personally think that whatever ur problem is it's coming from electrical source, not a hardware conflict.
Check your power supply as the guys already said, move any near electrical/magnetic device,unplug any device that might be linked to any hardware's Line In/Out, if those don't work try replacing your case, it sounds weird but sometimes the case may be creating some electrical shocks causing this.

[Gaidal]

Well I went ahead and ordered a new Sparkle Power Supply for about $50 after shipping. I hope this fixes it though! I'll let you guys know.

One other thing... could it possibly be motherboard too? That's something I'd rather not replace. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Gaidal]

Well I just installed a new Sparkle power supply, and unfortunately, nothing has changed. I'm extremely frustrated right now. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Gaidal]

For the past week, I've just been leaving the computer on 24/7 and it's as stable as a rock. However, when I unplugged the computer today to put in the new power supply... BAM! locked up within 30 seconds of being in Windows. 2 lockups later and my computer is stable again.

[Paleo Pete]

Start checking memory chips, video card, etc. Something is getting weak, and has to warm up before it works right.

Pull everything but CPU, memory, video card and keyboard and try it. Add components until it locks up. If it locks up first try, check memory and video by swapping them for good cards, and trying them in a working machine. CPU could be doing it too.

Watch the CPU fan while booting and be sure it starts right away. It might be going bad, or gummed up and taking a few minutes to come up to running speed.

Pull the video card and memory chips and clean the contacts with a rubber pencil eraser, carefully, and make sure you ground yourself on the chassis before touching anything inside the case. A ground strap connected to the center screw of an outlet will help, even if it's not the best ground strap in the world...it actually should be in the ground hole in the outlet, but it's not always possible. A ground to groundless adapter might work, connect a wire to the adapter wire and then to the chassis or your wrist.

Be VERY careful, check it out with a multimeter to be certain it's not getting current through the wire before you try to touch it.



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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[Randy_tx]

I have had similar problems with my AMD Athalon 900 & I also have a Sound Blaster Live Sound Card. I have come to the conclusion that the AMD cpu has some timing problems with certain devices and Win 98 during start-up, but nothing other than a hunch. Mine does it even when its warmed up when I reboot the system....often it takes two boots to get up and running...then stable as a rock. Dunno what the answer is....yet!

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"I didn't have a relationship with that OS...Win ME."

[spaceAlien]

Last resort ???

Put it back in the pickup for 2 or 3 days while you drive around --

Whatever is acting up will git broke good -- and you'll be able to find it.

Cheers --

[Randy_tx]

Anyone have a pickup I can borrow????? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I sometimes think like a 286

[Gaidal]

Well Randy, you figure anything out, lemme know. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

As for me, I simply don't have a clue what it is. Some day when I have a lot of time I'm just going to take everything out and give it a good inspection and reseat everything.

[Nahash]

I might be way off base here, but what model is that 3COM NIC in your machine? Is the NIC actually connected to anything? Does it have an IP address, or is everything about it default?

The reason I ask is that 98 has major issues with DHCP. If you put a NIC in 98 or ME, leave all the settings at default, and don't connect that NIC to a DHCP server, you've just added 15-20 seconds to your boot time alone. Then after 2-3 minutes pass, it starts looking for an address again.

The older 3COM NICs (particularly the 3C509 and the 3C905B) added extra weight to that problem because 3COM decided to make them highly configurable cards - and they set two of the defaults to wrong numerical values. So the NICs were all spitting out obscenely large packets.

The point of all this is that your problem most likely has nothing to do with the actual hardware (no offense, guys). To me, it sounds like software. It's either configuration or OS - I'd start looking in the NIC settings.


Good Luck

Christian

[Paleo Pete]

No offense taken, at least by me. Sounds like it could very well be the problem we've been trying to find. That's why we have all these folks here to try and help. Often someone will come along with what seems to be an off-the-wall solution, and it turns out to work. That's also why personal experience makes more difference than book knowledge lots of times.

I think it's worth checking out.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[Gaidal]

Well I'm hooked into ethernet so it should have a seperate IP address.

As for the model of the card, I'd like to tell you but all Device Manager shows is "3Com EtherLink XL Combo" and I've long since lost the box it came in. It's about 2.5 years old though.

[mjc]

Hey, if we aren't here to learn as we help then we should probably apply for a job at a major computer manufacturer's tech support department.

It sounds reasonable that it could be related to the NIC, I've heard of all sorts or wierdness in laptops but just didn't connect that it could be the same here

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mjc
To ME or NOT to ME....

[Gaidal]

If it's the NIC, wouldn't it stand to reason that it would lock up "before" Windows boots? (I get lockups both before and within 5 minutes of windows booting) That's been my experience, as I've had to disable my network card when I go home otherwise it takes 5 minutes to boot up. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Gaidal]

Here's a couple of other things that might be related to the problem

Recently, I've been switching my computer into standby mode when I go to bed rather than turning it off. However, this STILL causes the lockups.

For some reason, when booting up windows, I get just a solid blue screen (rather than the usual Windows 98 splash screen). Everything boots up fine and once the windows login comes up, the screen disappears.

*sigh*

[Randy_tx]

Well, in my case (Athalon cpu with the 2 boot problem) I dont even HAVE a NIC! I still think its a AMD problem!!

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Open letter to Bill Gates:"I just want 1% of your net worth...I'm not greedy"

[Gaidal]

Well here's maybe one MORE piece of the puzzle...

Today when my computer locked up, I pressed the reset button and the monitor was blank for a few moments... then I heard the computer start beeping. It was alternate, long, high and low beeps like "low, high, low, high"

In my BIOS m.board book it says that long beeps in an endless loop means that no DRAM is detected (it says nothing about alternating pitches, however). I don't think this is the problem, as I do have Kingston RAM, but I also tried another generic stick of PC100 and the same thing would happen.

This "beeping" problem was an old problem I had when I first put the computer together, however it dissappeared after awhile. Seems whatever was causing it back then is causing these lockups now. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Paleo Pete]

Have you tried it yet as a bare bones system? No cards except video, no hard drive or floppy. Just the basics needed to get a picture. Add one item at a time, and see how it acts.

I'm beginning to think you have a bad motherboard, RAM or CPU. Only way to find out is test the RAM and CPU on a working system and different ones on that machine.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[Gaidal]

Well I can safely eliminate RAM from the equation because when I originally put this computer together I used a 64 MB generic stick and the same "beeping" occurred. After I had put the Kingston ram in the problem had already gone away (till now, of course). The generic stick works perfectly in another computer, incidentally.

Which leaves processor and motherboard? I can't really do much about tesing them in other computers because I don't know anybody with a Thunderbird setup around here. Guess I'll wait till the summer unless anybody can nail down this problem for sure.

[Randy_tx]

You're mobo has a "PC Health Status" feature........you might want to check to be sure the CPU fan is running at 4500 or more RPM's....but more importantly, that the CPU is running between 86 & 97 degrees....no higher for sure or you have a cooling problem. Mine runs at between 86 & 90 & does reach 95 occasionally, depending on the room temp. Check the temp...if you are hovering around 100 degrees or more......you need a better cooling fan (as you may know, Athalon's run HOT!...they need a very good fan).

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When all else fails...I'm a heck of a parts swapper!

[Randy_tx]

On second thought....CPU fan should be at around 6000+ rpm's...but the cpu temp is MOST important...not over 97 degrees.

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When all else fails...I'm a heck of a parts swapper!

[Gaidal]

CPU Fan RPM is 5300 or so usually.

My CPU heat is about 53 C (about 120 F?) or so usually. I know this is a little high, but from the people I've talked to, it's really not too out of the ordinary for Thunderbirds.

BUT if it was heat... why would it only have problems when booting up? That doesn't make any sense at all. You'd think the longer I use it, the worse it would get, but that's not the case.

I suppose I can try buying a new CPU fan.. which would you recommend? I already have a front case fan installed in my computer as well.

[Randy_tx]

Trust me........you are running VERY hot....even for an Athalon...like I said...I run at 86 degrees most of the time and occasionally up to 92-95...it may not be the reason you have to double boot(as i have to do that often myself)...but my computer NEVER freezes after i get a good boot up)..in any event...email the folks at AMD to find out what THEY think your cpu temp should be...I believe you are running WAY TOO HOT !!

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When all else fails...I'm a heck of a parts swapper!

[Randy_tx]

Well, to answer your "that doesnt make any sense at all" part...if your cpu is already defective or damaged, it would have all kinds of problems booting whether cold or hot! I beleive you have more than one problem -One is similiar to my own - sometimes takes two boots to get system up and the other- your computer freezes up on you while you are doing stuff...is that an accurate description?...if so, more than one problem...I assure you. In any event...I am virtually sure you have an overheating problem...if, in fact, your cpu temp is 120 degrees.

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When all else fails...I'm a heck of a parts swapper!

[Gaidal]

Well what do you recommend? A better heatsink/fan combo?

If so, what brand?

[This message has been edited by Gaidal (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Gaidal]

Well I found a GlobalWIN fan that's supposed to run at 6800 rpms for only $23 so I'm going for that. I have a feeling it's going to be loud as hell though. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[MindMeddler]

I have a similar problem. Buying a new fan won't help your current situiation. You need to deal with the cpu itself (fix it).

[Randy_tx]

WELL........I was wrong again! Look at what AMD says about the operating temp of an Athalon:
Hi Randy,

Thanks for contacting AMD.

The temperature range for the cache enhanced Athlon and up to 1GHz and Duron is 0 to 90◦C or 194◦f. The temperature for the 1.1 to 1.2GHz is 0 to 95◦C or 203◦f, and for the Classic Athlon the temperature range is 0 to 70◦C or 158◦f. Be sure to use case fans, which AMD recommends. One intake and one exhaust would be sufficient for the proper heat dissipation. Also, zip tying the system cables up out of the way of air flow will help to alleviate the heat in the case.

I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, please contact us.

Best wishes,
Patrick
AMD TSC


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When all else fails...I'm a heck of a parts swapper!

[Gaidal]

MindMeddler, you're saying that this is a CPU problem? did you have to get yours replaced?

AND, is it a problem that will continue to get worse or a problem that will just continue to haggle me throughout the life of the computer?

[Paleo Pete]

WOW! 203°F?? I thought around 110-130°F was about max for most CPU's...never imagined anything woud run that hot under normal conditions..bet you can't hold your finger on that puppy for 10 seconds!

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[Randy_tx]

That's why they are so pickey about the cooler you use! Thats why it self destructs in 7 sec. or so if the fan fails! The MAJOR problem & risk with AMD Athalon cpu's is the fact that there is absolutely NO thermal protection built into the chip (as in Intel) in which it will just "shut down" if it reaches a "critical" temp........good thing they are much cheaper! After builders EAT a few of em on warranties... the pressure will really mount for AMD to do something about this problem.

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"As hard as a rock & dumb as a brick"...Windows CEMeNT