Machine Rebooting : Bad HDD Maybe?

[HeadachesAbound]

I have been experiencing an issue where my machine reboots randomly without warning. Was happening in Win98SE and has carried over to WinXP Pro. If an HDD is going bad could it cause the machine to reboot?

The only reason that I assume the HDD at this point is that I have checked everything else. I have also been doing alot of interacting with that drive tonight and have had the problem 3 times in the last 2 hrs.

The disk in question is listed as HD3 below. It is from an old system and is roughly 5 years old.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

The cpu never exceeds 97 if I remember right. It averages around 91. Temps in Fahrenheit.

System Specs:

<pre>
Case: Antec SX1035B
Power Supply: Antec PP-352X (350W)
Motherboard: FIC AZ11E
RAM0: 128MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
RAM1: 128MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
RAM2: 256MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
DVDROM: LG DRD-8160B
Processor: AMD Duron 900MHz, Coolermaster HSF / Fan
PCI0: Maxtor Ultra ATA/100 PCI Adaptor
PCI1: Creative SB PCI512
PCI2: Generic LAN Ethernet Card
PCI3: PNY NVIDIA GeForce2 MX 200
HD1: WD 80GB
HD2: Maxtor 80GB
HD3: Maxtor 10GB
Iomega Zip100
Generic 3.5 Floppy
Fans :2 In, 2 Out, 80mm Antec
Thermaltake Active Memory Cooling System
</pre>

[gwallen4]

My first guess is that HD3 is not the source of the reboots. But you could test that by simply disconnecting HD3 for awhile.

Have you tried removing sticks of ram, one at a time?

I would look more at what you are doing when the reboots occur. You are accessing HD3 with what program, and what system resources are being used to run the program. Eg. a program that does intensive graphics, a program that uses the sound card, etc.

Was your XP install a clean install? Or did you maybe inherit some bug from Win98?

[HeadachesAbound]

Clean Installed XP to the second drive. RAM is good.

Tonight I was running...

LeapFTP, downloading from 2 ftp sites, large files to HD3
WinAmp3, Playing mp3s from HD3

In Win98 this was happening while on the web and only on the web.

HD3 was previously installed as HD1 and therefore all programs ran from it. I moved it because I wanted to use the larger drives for the OS installs. I'll have to watch it for a few more days and see if keeps doing it. I am currently evaluating XP to see if I really want it or not and so far I am happy. I am going to keep using XP for at least another month or so before I decide what to do with 98 since I do have a few programs that won't run on XP and I need them.

Any ideas as to why or how (if it's possible) that the usage of the following could cause the machine to reboot?

Net Connection (DSL, Ethernet Card)
SoundCard (Creative PCI512)
HD2 (WinXP Install, Program Execution)
HD3 (Downloads, Backup)
PCI IDE Adaptor has both HD2 and HD3 connected to it.

[gwallen4]

Are you running a dual boot system?

The Win98 reboots sound like a software problem since they occur only during browzing. You could try I.E. 6.0 if you haven't already.

Win XP is supposed to be immune to reboots caused by software. So there may be a hardware problem that's causing the reboots there. It may not even be the same cause as with Win98.

I had a computer once that rebooted randomly during 3-D games. Tried everything over a one week period, new drivers, flashing bios, removing hardware. Thinking it was a bad MB, I was getting ready to send it back, but I reinstalled Win98 instead, with directX 8.1b, IE 6, all the correct drivers, and the reboots disappeared.

Anyway, I don't have a clue what's wrong with your system, but I would start with drivers, then if the problem persists start pulling the hardware out, a piece at a time until the reboots stop.

[HeadachesAbound]

Yes, Dual Boot.

Will have to check into the DirectX drivers and see if that could be an issue. Just recently cleaned up the 98SE Install (2 weeks ago) and noticed a decline in the reboots on 98SE. I just started with XP and just noticed the reboots picking up tonight. Didn't know if there might some oddity with the OS that might be causing it or not.

Oh well, back to the drawing board then.

[Gallaeglagh]

While random reboots are sometimes software more likely you have some component overheating, your processor sounds cool enough. The next suspects would be the Power Supply, video card or even possibly the network card or sound card

[HeadachesAbound]

When this problem first began and I starting investigating temps within the system I used a program called MBProbe to get the temp and speed settings.

At that time I was playing around the inputs that it could read and this is what I was getting for each of the available options on the AUX2 setting:

VT82C686A:1 : 88.0 F : CPU
VT82C686A:2 : 65.0 F : MB
VT82C686A:3 : 67.3 F : AUX1
Asus CUSL2 : 100.0 F : AUX2
Tekram : 258.9 F : AUX2

I think that the Tekram is possibly on the Video Card but how would I find out for certain?

[mjc]

I think tht Tekram just is a wrong reading....at that temp anything electronics would be well on its way to letting the smoke that runs all electronics, escape.

Also since you have a FIC mother board it is unlikey you an ASUS monitoring chip.....same with the PNY vid card.

[HeadachesAbound]

What about the PCI IDE Controller? I haven't had a chance to pull it out and take a look at the chips on it but I know that Tekram produces PCI SCSI Cards. If the PCI IDE Controller is overheating could that cause the system to reboot?

[ranchdog]

Take the side panels off and let
your PC have some air. I don't
think this is the problem. But???

With the amount of Hardware you have
listed.... and random re-boots.... I'd
get myself the strongest PSU my wallet
would allow.

And then go to RAM.

Please run that 256Mb stick of RAM by
itself in slot #1 and see what happens.
Who makes Simple Technology RAM? (who's
name is on the chips?)..... New to me.


And give it a shot without the Ethernet
Card. Sound Blaster drivers aren't always
friendly with these.

[HeadachesAbound]

rd,

#1 Air is not a problem. Have 2 intake fans in the front, 2 out in the back plus the psu sucks air out with its 2 fans. I freeze if I'm not wearing socks around my machine.

#2 Simple Tech RAM (http://www.simpletech.com). I also tried running the system with limited RAM (ran it with just one stick at a time..128,128,256) and still had problems.

#3 Ethernet / Sound Card conflictions

I am leaning towards this possibility more than any others. I did a quick check in Device Manager in WinXP and noted that all of the PCI Devices (IDE Controller, Sound, Ethernet, etc.) and the USB Devices are all running on IRQ 11. My limited knowlege of hardware interfaces says this is not good and should be flashing bad in the OS somewhere. Am I mistaken about this or what?

I am also looking at getting a more powerful PSU for this machine in the near future (Antec TruePower Series). Also looking at building a second machine. Until then I will just have to attempt to live with the issue I guess.

If I run without the Ethernet card I have no Net Connection (Using DSL) and the only modem I have is an old ISA job and this machine has no ISA slots. Also looking into getting an AMR Modem since this board has a slot for it.

I have had no problems yet this evening so I am beginning to think it is a combination of components that might be reacting to each other when I am doing really heavy stuff (major downloads while playing music and attempting to program). Guess I'll have to stop all this mutlitasking.

[mjc]

In XP it dynamically assigns IRQs and even uses virtual IRQs, so often when looking at DM it shows everything on one "real" IRQ. That is the way XP was designed, and AFAIK, there is now easy way to change it. Any changes you make will, likely be undone, next boot, that is if it even lets you change anything.

Also have you gone over your logs...Event viewer, etc?

Some of this also sounds supiciously like VIA 4-in-1 problems....

[HeadachesAbound]

The Dynamic IRQs would explain why the computer is not throwing a fit about it. Guess I need to start looking into the technical aspects of XP now that I'm using it.

Looked thru the Event Log and didn't see anything to explain the reboots.

I have heard about some issues with the VIA 4-in-1 drivers but I haven't installed them so I'm not sure if they would have an effect unless they were auto-installed by the XP Install. I think that they might have been installed in 98SE from the MB CD.

Just put in the MB CD and got a message saying the OS is not supported. Guess that would possibly eliminate the VIA 4-in-1 issues.

I just pulled up http://www.viahardware.com/download/index.shtm and looked thru the info listed there for the downloads and now I'm wondering just how critical it might be to make those upgrades I'm planning. I'm also wondering if the upgrades would resolve the issue or cause it to get worse. Planning on getting a SB Audigy but if the VIA chips have trouble with SB Cards then it might not do me any good.

[HeadachesAbound]

Update...

Machine has rebooted twice this evening while Ripping my Legally Owned CDs to MP3 files. Both times I have checked the event log and it seems that whatever is happening isn't within the software. There are no events being written to the event log. Is it possible that some kind of electrical issue could be causing the machine to short out and reboot during heavy usage? I'm no electrician but I would assume that if I am pulling too much juice from the PS then it would fail, right?

Specs are at the top of this post.

[RKBA]

I really don't have a clue, but what I would do in your situation is to unplug as much stuff as I could to see if maybe the PS is right on the edge of its power output capability. My guess is that those fans probably draw a lot more current than anything else on your system (except the MB of course), so how about maybe disconnecting one or two of them (just for a little while), and maybe unplugging the two 128 MB RAM sticks and one or two of the HD's (if you can live without them for a little while) to see if the reduced power consumption has any effect on the problem. Most sophisticated electronics have a "Power on Reset" (POR) circuit that clamps everything with a Reset signal for some fixed duration of time, and/or until the voltage has reached some particular level. I don't know anything about the POR circuit in PC's, but perhaps the voltage is dropping below the POR circuit's voltage threshold and it's kicking in and generating a Reset signal(?).

It would also be interesting to see if there's any noise of your CPU's Reset signal line or to see a power usage log from a power logger, but devices to do those things are very expensive and not within the price range of mortal humans. Anywhere around that you might be able to rent or borrow some test equipment?

-- Ron

P.S.
You might want to unplug the sound card temporarily too.

[HeadachesAbound]

Ok.. Just restarted the machine today after turning it off last night and doing some tinkering.

I took a really good look at the RAM and noticed the following:

Original Stated Config:

<pre>
RAM0: 128MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
RAM1: 128MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
RAM2: 256MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
</pre>

Rechecked / Moved Config:

<pre>
RAM0: 256MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
RAM1: 128MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Simple Technology)
RAM2: 128MB, PC133, 60ns, NameBrand (Micron PC)
</pre>

The Micron PC RAM Came with the new motherboard that I purchased to build this system.

After having the machine up for roughly 10 minutes (just long enough to read RKBA's post) the machine did it's thing again.

I shut the machine down and took out the RAM from Micron PC (Listed as RAM2 Above).

I'm now running with 384MB RAM which I'm not too happy about, but we'll see how it goes. If this works then I'm inclined to think that maybe, just maybe 1 of 2 things is happening.

1. The Micron PC RAM just sucks.
2. The Simple RAM is incompatible with any other RAM (Unlikely).

Gonna run it like this for a while and see what happens. If it works then I'm gonna have to go get some more RAM from SAM's.

I also ran DocMemory Burn-in testing (10 Loops, almost 10 hrs) to check the RAM and it found no problems.

[mjc]

It could be that the Micron is CAS 2.5 and the Simple is CAS 2....and the board is set to 2...try setting it to 2.5 or 3 (there won't be much of a performance hit, but on some benchmarks will show a difference).

[HeadachesAbound]

All of the RAM Modules are CAS3, but it is possible that the board is set at 2 instead of 3. Hadn't thought of that. I will check the board / BIOS and see if changing it has any effect. I do know that running at 384MB and 512MB has a performance difference that I can see. Of course I tend to spend more time on computers than I do anything else.

[mjc]

The amount will have an impact the CAS setting won't be that noticeable....

[HeadachesAbound]

Just checked the BIOS...

CAS at 3.
Clock Cycle at 133Mhz.

Haven't experienced any reboots since I took out the Micron PC RAM so I am gonna keep pushing the system and see what happens.

[hamza]

HeadachesAbound!

I'm glad I have found this forum and this thread! You are not the only one who has experienced this problem. I am experiencing it too and have been for some weeks without any results! I have taken my pc apart and fitted it back again.

Initially, when I started building this pc about two years ago, I put in 256 meg pc 2700 DDR 333 ram in. It was incompatible with my mobo (epox 8k3a). Wouldn't let me install any version of windows operating system. I then upgraded to 512 megs pc 2700 DDR 333.

Everything was ok until about a month ago where I started experiencing shutdowns. Though it was a virus did some checks, nothing. I formatted both partitions of HD with xp and 2k and still experienced problems. mbprobe reported some voltage problems but it's not so bad. this can be seen on
http://www.dougie.mcmail.com/mbp.htm

I think I may have memory in compatibilities or a bad stick of memory!

Thanks for all you help!

btw my spec

epox 8k3a (includes sound)
512 meg ram pc2700 ddr 333
60 gig matrox
xp 1800 +
nvida geForce 440 mx with tv out
cdrw
dvd
300w psu