First build MB questions

[johnw]

Ok, this novice has decided to go for his first build and would like some advice on choices for a motherboard.

What kind of uses will the system get?

Gaming for 10 year old son, but not superintensive; I'd like to try built in video first and then maybe, if necessary, go for about a $60 video card.

My most intensive use will be music processing, and cd burning which from what I've able to find out, will be handled nicely by the configuration I am considering. which is

AMD Athlon, 1.4 Gig
256 MB memory (DDR)
40 Gig HD
CD-ROM, CD-RW (from my present system)
built in video and sound (but will probably add video and sound cards later)
56k internet connection
CPU fan and temp monitoring would be a cool feature, but not necessary
Do not need latest features such as Firewire or PCI 2.0.

My goal is to end up with a system that is in the middle of the performance range (probably the lower part of the middle),at a good value for the bucks, say around $250 for the MB, CPU, memory, case and PSU.

I have done a lot of reading on motherboard specs and it seems that the $60 to $90 price range has a few that look good to me. However, I would appreciate some some suggestions to see if I'm on the mark, so far, or whether I'm off base.

Your motherboard suggestions, please; and thank you so much.

[Budfred]

I recently bought a K7S5A ECS from Newegg for about $53 which is a good price. The front panel pins are tricky, but otherwise it seems to be a good board for a really good price. They also have a 1600+ AMD XP that will go with it for about $55 if I remember correctly.

Budfred

[johnw]

Thanks Budfred..that is one of the MB's that made it to my short list so far. Ok, now what are those "front panel pins" that you mentioned? That's the first time I hear of those. Thanks again.

[Budfred]

The front panel pins are where you plug in the lights and things for the front panel of the computer. The power led, hd led and power switch, etc.

Budfred

[JUAN DOS]

I have used this board for 4 PCs.

http://www.tcwo.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=2237&sid=1gi2Ty0W-2SX999

Cost $60
It accepts two types of memory (512mb SDR is about the same cost as 256 DDR)
It uses 32mb for onboard vid.
The brand (Biostar) is not well known in the U.S., but the supplier has a fine reputation, which is IMHO, more important than many other factors. Mobo manufacturers are notorious for non-support. TCWO has 800 phone support, with real people answering, not ridiculous menu options, which lead nowhere.

An 80g hard drive @ +$20, would give you the option to set up a separate partition for the sons operating system / games / internet / mail. Stories abound re children messing up the PC.

[saphalline]

I agree with Budfred on the AthlonXP 1600+. Costs about the same as an Athlon 1.4, will give you more power, and it runs much cooler! This usually means a cooler overall case temp, and a quieter CPU fan.

[Budfred]

Actually, the AMD XP 1600+ runs at 1.4Ghz, so it is the same chip.

Budfred

[johnw]

Thanks everyone for the very useful info. Juan Dos, that Biostar MB looks good, but what about that micro ATX form factor, what kind of issues does that bring up? I was convinced up to now, at least that I should go with the ATX form factor. Anyone see any downside to the micro ATX form factor? Thanks in advance!

[Budfred]

Main problem is fewer PCI slots. If you are not likely to ever use them, it is not really a problem. I don't like limiting myself that way or I would just look for a laptop.

Budfred

[JUAN DOS]

John W,
The biostar mentioned has onboard vid, sound, and lan.

There are 3pci slots, and an AGP slot for upgrading, if required.

The users of the machines that I built are 100% satisfied with the onboard vid and sound.

Even if you upgrade both, and plug in a modem, you still have another empty PCI slot.

IMHO, do not worry about what is in the distant future for this (or any) PC. Technology / needs cannot be anticipated accurately, so do not overbuild.

An issue that you have not addressed at the forum is case / power supply. If your old PS is 250W or less, or is old, it might be best to plan on replacement / upgrade. The only exception to the “do not overbuild rule” might be with power supplys.

New cases also have front USB.

Another issue that may or may not apply, might be need for ISA slot for an old tech scanner.

Budfred,
You advise against a small board, so tell me what you have plugged into those 6 pci slots on your machine. I am not arguing with you (or maybe I am), but I really wonder if you have a use for them other than “future expansion”. My Abit KT7A-raid has 3 of 6 PCI slots empty. I never found anything useful to plug into them.

[BigBlue66]

What you really need to be looking at is a barebones system, which you can build to your liking at several vendors. Barebones can include case, PS, mobo, processor, HSF, keyboard, mouse, etc.

www.computersurplusoutlet.com
www.compgeeks.com
www.kommax.com
www.cpusolutions.com

[Budfred]

Juan Dos,

In one system I had a few years ago, I had every slot filled, although they were ISA slots then. That included to HardCards (harddrives on a card), modem, and I forget what the rest were. My last computer had almost every slot filled with a PCI IDE card, a modem, a PCI parallel port, sound card, and I forget what else. In my HP now I have a DSL modem, a video card, sound card, fan, and maybe one other thing I don't remember. I know I don't have room to put in my conventional modem or the NIC card that I wanted to install, so it is pretty tight. I may need the expansion slots less in the future as external technologies improve, but for now I still like to have them.

Budfred

[malcore]

Actually, the AMD XP 1600+ runs at 1.4Ghz, so it is the same chip.

Depends on which chip we are talking about. The 1.4 Gig Athlon TBird and the 1.4 Gig Athlon 1600XP are most definitely different chips, and in this comparison saphalline's observations are correct.

Except maybe the prices. Newegg is currently selling the TBird for $20 more than the XP.

[ranchdog]

johnw

My suggestion is to do business with

a vendor that will give some service

in case you have a problem. Newegg is

excellent.

For an answer to your question.... A

Mboard with some quality for the $$

spent and still be middle of the road

for cost look at MSI.



RD.

[johnw]

Wow, some good discussions going on here! Again, thanks everyone. My questions are being answered, and my education is getting a serious push forward. I have not brought up the power supply, but since it has been brought up, I was thinking of a 300W unit; that should be enough right?

Also, a sticky little question. In my present unit I have a 6.0 Gig HD, but it did not come with a full W98 CD, it's only a recovery CD. Could I build the new unit, connect my existing HD, use the recovery CD and expect to load W98 into it? Sounds iffy, but I thought I would ask.
Thanks again.

[Budfred]

For the power supply, this is one piece of equipment that it can't hurt to have extra. Especially since what I just learned about it suggests that how the power is distributed by the supply can make a big difference too. Tom's Hardware has a good article about power supplies and you might want to check that out. Again, Newegg has some good deals and the power supply is not an item to be go too cheap on. You can get 500 watt power supplies for a pittance, but they may die on you shortly after you take them out of the box and may even take other components with them. Enermax, Heroichi, Sparkle and Antec are supposed to be good, but Antec's support is crap.

As for the Recovery Disk. Sorry. It almost certainly won't work with another computer unless it is set up as a generic install. You may want to think about picking up a copy of Win2000Pro, it is supposed to be about as stable as XP and it doesn't have all the strings attached.

Budfred

[JUAN DOS]

JohnW,

Alas, with every answer there is another question.:(

Proprietary cases present problems too. You do not by chance have a “name brand”(ie Compac, HP, Emachine) PC do you?

300W power supply is considered minimal by most who have investigated the subject. I’ll just say 2 things to keep this short.
1)A high quality 300W PS will certainly serve your present needs.
2)A poor quality 300W PS will, if it fails, often destroy other components.

Heroichi is one brand mentioned as recommended in the aforementioned tomshardware PS tests.
NewEgg is one of few vendors that have that brand (listed as Compucase)
I today received three Heroichi 350W units for use in PCs with power needs similar to yours.
They are very heavy when compared with poor quality brands. Believe it or not, weight is one “benchmark” of quality power supplies. The weight compares favorably with the 480W Antec I also bought for my own behemoth machine.
That said, you cannot go wrong buying a 400W or larger high quality PS.
After all, it’s only money!

http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/02q4/021021/index.html

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=manufactory&catalog=58&manufactory=1446&DEPA=1&sortby=14&order=1

http://www.newegg.com/app/manufactory.asp?catalog=58&DEPA=1

[saphalline]

Anyone see any downside to the micro ATX form factor?
One issue with microATX boards - they are far more likely to have onboard video than ATX boards. Given your requirement for onboard video, you shouldn't be surprised if most or all of your options are for microATX boards. Onboard sound, however, is quite common for all boards since every current chipset (and probably all future ones) have built-in support for onboard audio. Only the budget chipsets have built-in support for onboard video.

And I agree with the others on less PCI slots - never been a big issue for me. In my rig, I have an AGP video card, a Sound Blaster 5.1 (PCI), and a PCI network card. That's it! I'm thinking about using another 1 or 2 for cooling cards, once I upgrade enough to actually need the extra cooling. :p So let's say I use 2 slots for cooling, and add a USB 2.0 PCI card. Ok, then I'd have all my 5 PCI slots filled. You ever gonna add that many PCI cards?

For a power supply, I would also suggest a name-brand 300W+, like say a 350W. That should do it. If you plan on using a 3GHz CPU, a Radeon 9700 Pro, two CD drives, and 4 hard drives in a RAID config, then maybe 500W would be justified, but otherwise 350-400W is fine.

[johnw]

Thanks again, everyone. Looks like a 350 W PSU should cover it nicely for me. I will probably add a sound card and a low end video card in the near future, which along with my modem card will fill up the 3 PCI slots in a micro ATX board; but if If get a board with an AGP slot for the video card, then I will still have an extra PCI slot to play with. It also sounds like Newegg, with their rep for service and selection of components is a good supplier to go with. And, I should make sure that the case I get will accomodate a micro ATX board, and actually the specific board that I get. Well, that should just about cover the basics for me at this point. Again, thanks to everyone for the great suggestions.

[Alejandro]

About the number of PCI slots...
It really depends on how much money you want to (or can) spend and what are your future upgrade plans...
For me, after having my previous computer filled with cards and unable to add one (just as Budfred), i sweared i'd never buy a small one in the future. Because of that, my present system has 5 PCI slots, all free for now (although one shares its possition with an ISA one in use and one is too close to AGP, so it leaves 3 free slots really).
But if i got money, i would buy a new PCI Soundblaster, a PCI NIC, a TV capturer, PCI modem, etc. so i'm happy with that possibility.
If you know for certain (well, almost) that you won't use more slots than provided, then go with the small one and spend those extra bucks enhancing another part of the system (more memory, better CPU, etc.) or just keep them.
A good advice however is not to buy an ultra-fast system if you really don't need it.

[saphalline]

And, I should make sure that the case I get will accomodate a micro ATX board, and actually the specific board that I get.
Any ATX case will take a microATX board no problem. You can get smaller cases specifically for microATX boards, but unless size is at a premium, don't do this. MicroATX cases often have cooling issues, less drive bays, smaller bundled power supplies, and are more expensive, too! :eek:

Tell us what you want in a case and you should get quite a few responses! :p

[BigBlue66]

For a power supply, may I suggest an Antec TruePower 330 or even 430? I've been using Antec PSUs for several years and never had to have tech support.

The nice thing about the True series is the separate rails. That is, power is not drawn from one rail when another rail needs it.