Guru's!!!!!!! Help with ultimate machine!

[S_K_I]

i'm currently building an ultimate machine for my friend who is basically paying top cash for this. he basically is going to use the computer for every imaginable thing possible, business software like office 2000, lightwave 3D and MAYA, running gaming servers, watching 5.1 DTS movies not to mention alot of Unreal Tournament 2003 and Doom 3 when it comes out. so basically he needs a work horse here. Money is no concern so i need you guys to look at these specs and see if there is anything better than i already haven't found yet....

Motherboard:
GA-8IHXP i850E (this may change, i'll tell you why down below)
http://www.giga-byte.com/products/8ihxp.htm

Cpu:
3.06Ghz P4

OS:
Windows XP for hyper threading of course(otherwise i would of gone 2000)

Monitor:
2 choices for this one so help me out damnit!
23" Apple Cinema Display with DVI to ADC Adapter http://www.apple.com/displays/acd23/#
or
Viewsonic VP2290b http://www.viewsonic.com/products/lcd_vp2290b.htm

GPU:
Geforce FX (i got the hook so i'm getting it next month)
http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?PAGE=geforcefx

Case:
X-case (mostly for show, but its getting all the fans so lots of air)
http://www.xoxide.com/clearacatxca.html

Sound Card:
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum
http://creativelabs.com/products/product.asp?product=472

Hard Drive:
2 choices again.....
WD Caviar® 7200 hard drive WD2000JB
http://westerndigital.com/products/products.asp?DriveID=38[URL]
or
Barracuda Serial ATA V
[URL]http://seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/marketing/detail/0,1081,563,00.html

Memory:
4 sticks of Kingston 256MB RIMM4200 1066MHz 32-bit ECC RIMM

CD/DVD Drives:
Sony DVD-ROM 40x 16x
and
Philips DVD+R/+RW Drive

Miscellaneous stuff:
Microsoft Wireless Intellimouse Explorer
Microsoft Wireless Office Keyboard
No Speakers because he already has a pair of Martin Logans

and finally, COOLING!:
Koolance Exos PC liquid cooling system
http://www.xoxide.com/koolanceexos.html

ok now for any questions you may have i will try to answer them for you now. first, i'm aware that the motherboard i have chosen isn't compatible with serial ATA drives yet (that will probably change my decision ultimately). it also does not support the 8x AGP bus, but from preliminary benchmarks, the difference is negligable, but then again i haven't gotten my hands on the Geforce FX. i would also like to add that going to a DDR motherboard is not an acception, cuz even the new 400mhz 3200 models that came out, it will still bottleneck the 3.06ghz cpu (i know this cuz i've already tested it on 3 different setups). oh, and if any of you though why i haven't gone SCSI, thats because i also in the same benchmarks, with the hyper-threading enabled and the 8mb western digital hard drives working in conjunction, the bencmarks showed in most cases, they were faster than SCSI, which literally blew my mind fa sho! And finally, with the water cooling setup, i hope to overlcock this mean sumb#$ch up to 3.7ghz, but we'll see. in the meantime boys, look at these specs and if possible tell me something better..

PS: trust me when i say i do my homework here!

[hiredgoonz]

If money is no object, why don't you go for a dual Xeon setup? They have 2.8ghz version out now, with ht. That would certainly be faster than a 3.06 with some of the apps you're talking about...

http://www.intel.com/products/server/processors/server/xeon/index.htm?iid=ipp_srvr_proc+high1_xeon&

And you could get better disk performance by running a raid setup with 15,000rpm scsi drives. Don't get me wrong, I like the 8mb cache WDs, but the performance of the 200gb version is not as high as the smaller drives...

And why are you going to get ECC ram and then overclock the system? That seems pretty pointless, going with error correcting ram, then oc'ing the system and making it less reliable...

I suspect that you may be pulling someone's leg here, but if you're for real with this post, then you should go way more exotic than a 3.06ht P4...

[S_K_I]

And you could get better disk performance by running a raid setup with 15,000rpm scsi drives. Don't get me wrong, I like the 8mb cache WDs, but the performance of the 200gb version is not as high as the smaller drives...

As a matter of fact, i did that setup, and that is why i said i was blown away to find out that it was outperformed (but not in every case)by the 200gb model. also, i forgot to mention but it will be raid too, sorry about that, i never go over my writing.


If money is no object, why don't you go for a dual Xeon setup? They have 2.8ghz version out now, with ht. That would certainly be faster than a 3.06 with some of the apps you're talking about...

those setups are "WAY WAY" to unstable for those kinds of things, especially for videogames. believe me that would of been my first choice but those are meant mostly for system database systems, and in pc game servers, they've been proven to underperform and crash. plus, my friend specically did not want a xeon, so go figure, its his money and not mine, ouch!

but i completely understand why you'd think i'm pulling your leg. you have the same idea as me. my idea of a bad ass computer is pretty much the same as yours.....

[S_K_I]

And you could get better disk performance by running a raid setup with 15,000rpm scsi drives. Don't get me wrong, I like the 8mb cache WDs, but the performance of the 200gb version is not as high as the smaller drives...

As a matter of fact, i did that setup, and that is why i said i was blown away to find out that it was outperformed (but not in every case)by the 200gb model. also, i forgot to mention but it will be raid too, sorry about that, i never go over my writing.


If money is no object, why don't you go for a dual Xeon setup? They have 2.8ghz version out now, with ht. That would certainly be faster than a 3.06 with some of the apps you're talking about...

those setups are "WAY WAY" to unstable for those kinds of things, especially for videogames. believe me that would of been my first choice but those are meant mostly for system database systems, and in pc game servers, they've been proven to underperform and crash. plus, my friend specically did not want a xeon, so go figure, its his money and not mine, ouch!

but i completely understand why you'd think i'm pulling your leg. you have the same idea as me. my idea of a bad ass computer is pretty much the same as yours.....

[Whyzman]

You did say dual display, right?

I'd go with one of each, the Viewsonic and the Apple. Even though the screen is large it's nice to be able to keep some windows large and not have to move them to the front.

I think I mentioned once before somewhere about a programmer/graphic artist I met about 6 years ago who was running 4 17" monitors on his PC. Desktop on one screen, Freehand tool bars on another leaving the third screen unencumbered for drawing, and the 4th another open program.

It was a sweet set up...I'd go with one of each. If you cannot decide just get a couple of either...Spending other people's unlimited funds is kind of exhilarating! :p

Although, I'd say I'm partial to the ViewSonics.....

[S_K_I]

your pretty much right in a choice for viewsonic, with a resolution that crazy, its eye candy galore. i don't know about 4 screens though, that my friend is for the fanatical...

[Whyzman]

Dual, just a dual setup! ;)

[hiredgoonz]

I would stick to the smaller drives (120gb) with the 8mb cache. The 200 has a higher access time and if you're doing a 2 or 3 drive raid, are you really going to need more than 240-360gb?

And as far as dual setups being unstable, I haven't seen that they are any worse than single CPU setups. Both dual systems I have handle whatever I throw at them, which is an accomplishment.

And if worse comes to worse, you can switch to a uniprocessor driver for gaming. Maya and lightwave 3d both support smp and from my experience, dual cpu systems just have more in reserve for multitasking...

And whyzman is 100% right, a dual display setup is sooo nice. I'm on my 3rd one now, using two 21" trinitrons and no matter what your resolution on what size monitor, two is better :p

[Mark Miller]

Great system except for the mouse. For the most part wireless mice sound better than they are. I used one for 2 days and brought it back, Not very accurate
Mark:)

[Whyzman]

Logitech wireless mouse and keyboard! ;)

[S_K_I]

the reason for 200gb, and this is a big reason is cuz my friend is a hardcore animation freak. he tells me that some of his rendering animations average a "MININUM" of 40 gigs!. now throw in alot of games, mp3's, and movies, and pretty soon we're at 50 percent of the storage capacity.

intellimouse explorer all the in my opinion, only becaue i'm using one right now for my computer.

you guys may crucify me for saying this but i'm gonna not do a dual cpu just cuz from past experiences, i just find that they're too unstable and are only good for certain things.

well you guys have pretty much sold me on two monitors, i hear nothing but ecstacy, so i'll talk to my buddy about what he wants to do next.

[rond36]

Not only does this board not support S-ATA or AGP X8 it does not support 32 bit RAMBUS or HT CPUs. To utilize the HT technology for the CPU you need a motherboard with a chipset and BIOS that supports it. The only chipset that supports HT CPUs is the Intel 845PE and 845GE and they only support DDR-SDRAM but they do support S-ATA but not AGP X8. You will not find a motherboard that supports all of the new technology.
What I am trying to say is you can't have it all and dig for more info on what each board will support and choose one that has most of the options that you want

Motherboard:
GA-8IHXP i850E (this may change, i'll tell you why down below)

MEMORY
Type: RAMBUS PC1066/ PC800 184 pin
Max capacity: Up to 2 GB by 4 RIMM slots

Memory:
4 sticks of Kingston 256MB RIMM4200 1066MHz 32-bit ECC RIMM

This RAM comes in a 232 pin RIMM (as all 32-bit RIMMs are 232 pin) and will not fit in the 184 pin RIMM slots on the Gigabyte GA-8IHXP i850E. This board only uses 16 bit RIMM.

The only motherboard that can use Kingston 256MB RIMM4200 1066MHz 32-bit ECC RIMM (or any 232 pin 32 bit RAMBUS module) is the Asus P4T533 and it can only use 2 of them.

About the chosen harddrive

WD Caviar® 7200 hard drive WD2000JB

Most motherboards do not support harddrives larger than 137GB without a BIOS flash.(If one is provided by the manufacturer)

This drive may need to be installed on a RAID or IDE controller card because it exceeds the 137GB limit

From the FAQ at WDs site:

Question

I have determined that my system BIOS does not support a capacity larger than 137 GB. What are my options?

Answer

1)There may be a specific BIOS upgrade available from your motherboard manufacturer, or from the company that assembled your computer (your OEM). Please ensure that you have obtained the exact BIOS upgrade that applies to your motherboard or computer and properly follow the upgrade instructions. Failure to do so may render your system inoperable.


2)Controller cards with an onboard BIOS that supports drives larger than 137 GB are another option. Western Digital recommends the Promise Ultra 100 TX2 for breaking the 137 GB barrier. It can be purchased through the WD online store.

(Adding a controller card to a system adds considerable time to the boot process because the controller card has its own BIOS and it will POST before the system POST so the drives on the controller card will be detected by the system BIOS)


3)A new motherboard with native support for drives larger than 137 GB is another solution for some.

[malcore]

The only chipset that supports HT CPUs is the Intel 845PE and 845GE and they only support DDR-SDRAM but they do support S-ATA but not AGP X8

Asus has just released new BIOS for their P4 478 boards with Intel chipsets (all of them), so the P4T533, P4T533-C, P4B533 will now support Hyper Threading. Any of these boards manufactured after October 10 will support HT.

The P4T533 might be the way to go. Two 512 MB sticks of 32 bit PC 4200 RDRAM will be needed. Has Raid, no SATA and no AGP8x though.

Asus has also just released their new Intel based board that supports DDR2 (PC 1600 and 2100 officially). Has all the other bells and whistles, SATA, Raid, AGP8X.

[johnw]

Ok, I just have to know..just how much is this monster going to cost? Just curious, and envious. Thanks.

[rond36]

Malcore, After more digging on the Asus site I found the above to be true and I also found the board that you were talking about and I am going to find one to buy if I can. I sold the other system that I built for myself so I am starting another one and I think this will be the foundation on which to start.

ASUS P4G8X based on the Intel E7205 chipset which supports Intel HT 3.06G+ HT processor and Dual Channel DDR266. On top of that, this board also features Gigabit Ethernet, AGP 8X, S-ATA, 1394, USB 2.0, Overclocking (voltage, fsb tweaks) etc.
I found it you can buy one at Myinfinity.com (http://www.myinfinity.com/amazing/itemdesc.asp?CartId=10920650KA-ACCWARE-GRT76&ic=MBASUP4G8X&cc=&tpc=)
Retaillerratings.com has this retailler rated at 2.50 way below average so I would wait until newegg or googlegear gets this board.
As far as I can tell this board uses standard DDR DIMMs has 4 DIMM slots and they need to be installed in pairs (like the old SIMMs or the 16 bit RIMMs) and this should make the memory bus 64 bits wide instead of 32

[S_K_I]

trust me boys, we're talking some serious cash here, the monitors alone i'm lookin at alone are up to 5 billz (no joke either). i'm figuring this whole setup so far is around 7-8 thou right now.

like i said earlier, when i was posting about the motherboard and said that may change, i knew about the rimm slots and all, i was just throwing but bull at the time, i know, my bad. so far, the motherboard issue is what i'm still having the hardest time on. there are so many new features being thrown in the latest boards as of this month, and more on the way later. but i'm gonna say it again though, i'm not going with "DDR" because it bottlenecks the bus. and the reason why i know this is because i work at sandia national laboraties, and we get to work with government level hardware, and beta stuff stuff that will never reach the market. so when me and my co-workers experimented with the hyper threading with DDR it severely hurt the overall performance (mind you with the 3200 by the way) which is why i'm going the RDRAM route. the problem now is i might i have to wait, because all i've seen lately is DDR boards being produced now (which isn't a bad thing) and the only one i've seen so far is the Asus P4T533-C, so iono if i should wait for the other models to come out with there's and having something new in them, so talk to me here fellas....

ps: we just got a hold of the new Geforce FX over here at my work this morning (the damn thing has a gigantic heat sink system attached to it and it looks nasty crazy) sp we're gonna do some extensive testing on it later on, so i'll have reports later if you guys want.......

[malcore]

I doubt very much that you will see any new Rambus boards being produced. Intel has pretty well dropped Rambus because of all the legal problems and its scarcity. Probably won't see any boards with SATA,AGP 8X and Rambus. Intel's new E7205 chipset withh DDR2 support is a good indication that DDR platforms will be the future for them.

I say if you insist upon Rambus, stay with your original choice of the Gigabyte board. It has proven to be the fastest and most stable of all the Rambus boards. Just make sure you get 16 bit Rimms.

[Budfred]

malcore,

I just recently saw an article talking about RDRAM making a comeback. Apparently Intel believes that it will be the thing for the future, so they are sticking with it.

The article was on www.pcworld.com , but I don't have the link handy, sorry.

Budfred

[S_K_I]

I just recently saw an article talking about RDRAM making a comeback. Apparently Intel believes that it will be the thing for the future, so they are sticking with it.

exactly guys, most of you don't already know about this but sales of RDRAM have jumped big time which is why Intel has decided to stick with it the technology for now, and besides i can find prices on the net where RDRAM sticks sell cheaper than DDR ones.

[malcore]

Intel Drops Rambus (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2122185,00.html)

ove Affair Over (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6356)

Intel and DDR400 (http://www.ebnonline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=5400020)

the Future? (http://www.hardwarezone.com/news/news.hwz?cid=10&aid=8176)


While Intel may not entirely drop Rambus, it looks like they are concentrating on the newer DDR formats(DDR400 and DDR2) and leaving the Rambus market to SIS. This may be why Rambus prices have dropped. Memory manufacturers(like Samsung) have got on the Rambus bandwagon a little late and it is more available now. Maybe if there is enough consumer interest Intel wiil once again change its mind.
Intel has always been pretty vague about the future of Rambus, and the quote in my first link is the closest I've come across to a bold statement from them about the future of Rambus.
The success of DDR2 will play a great role here. We'll just have to wait and see what develops.


Edit- throw this L in where it belongs

[Mark Miller]

HI ,S K I
Just a quick question, what is your friend going to do when all this stuff is outdated 6 days after you build it. I'm a big fan of bigger and better but I have learned with computers and electronics in general that it is a losing battle. Anyway have fun and lets here how this uber machine turns out.
Mark

[S_K_I]

if you were a baller like my friend was, then trust me, the money i'm dishing out here is just chump change for him.

[rond36]

Another motherboard you may want to look into is the Gigabyte GA-8INXP (http://tw.giga-byte.com/products/8inxp.htm). It is a very new board with the Intel E7205 chipset. It supports most of the new technologies like S-ATA, gigabit LAN, and AGP X8...

Comming soon to an E-tailer near you!

Asus P4G8X
Gigabyte GA-8INXP
Tyan Trinity I7205 S2662
Tyan Tiger I7500 S2722

If you want to use S-ATA with your parallel ATA drives High Point has an adapter to do this.

[malcore]

Just bought the Asus P4G8X. 4 x 256 MB sticks of Kingston DDR333.P4 2.53. This board is incredible. AGP/PCI buses can be locked!

CPU/Memory ratio is always 1:1. Am running P4 2.53 at 147 MHz FSB (2793) and dual DDR 295MHz. STABLE. Really nice board and a very noticeable improvement from P4 2.26 on P4S533 with single channel DDR33. Rambus will still beat dual DDR in real world applications, but by unnoticeable margins. But dual DDR does provide the same if not better bandwidth than PC1066 and leaves single channel DDR well behind.

Amazing board! Asus has made up for their terrible P4S8X board with this one.

[Mark Miller]

Hi Malcore,
JUst a quick question. In the real world of applications what do these speed improvments mean? Does it help with speed on the internet? Or online games? Since I have alot of time, being retired, I am wondering if it makes any difference moving up from 1.8ghs and 512mb ddr.
Thanks Mark

[malcore]

Hi Mark,

For normal every day activities like internet, wordprocessing, emails etc., these numbers don't really mean much.

For more demanding tasks like photo or video editing they can mean quite a lot. I am a gamer and a hobbyist and these differences are quite noticeable for my purposes.

Memory and CPU won't really speed up internet or online gaming.They will make a game run more smoothly, but won't cure lag in online games.

I'm a hardware addict living in Hardware Heaven. Upgrading is one of my vices and one of my joys. I love this stuff!!

Is it worht it? To me, HELL yes. To others, maybe not.;)

[Mark Miller]

HI Malcore,
I just realized where you are and your right, hardware paradise. What do you think of this system, and what would you upgrade. I do alot of photo work, and have a great digital camera [sony f707]
1.8ghz
512 ddr mb
120gb hardrive 7200 rpm
mmx 400 geforce 64mb
dvd+rw/cd/rw
48xcd
Have the system 9 months and love it. But as I said I have lots of time on my hands and always playing around. As a matter of fact next purchase during the hoildays is going to be Samsung syncmaster 19it lcd.
Right now I have a17 inch flat screen crt.
Have a great day Mark:D
By the way I love this stuff too. Has taken the place of cars.

[hiredgoonz]

No to butt in, but since I do a lot of photo editing, I would recommend more RAM...get enough and you can turn off virtual memory which will speed things up a lot.

I'm using 1gb of ram at the moment, no virtual memory, so even editing big files, the only time the hard drive gets involved is for saving...

[Mark Miller]

Hey Hire, not butting at all. I never seem to go over using 300 mb no matter what kind of editing we do. Most of the time what we are doing is scanning and making poster size shots which my wife sells. Got an epson 1280 photo printer with wide loader so we can make any size camera will deal with. The Sony F707 is a 5 meagpixal so size is really not a problem. I will watch to see if we go into virtual mem though. Thanks for tip and have a great turkey.
Mark:D :D

[hiredgoonz]

What photo program do you use? I see mine peak at 940-960 regularly using paint shop pro. In fact, I'm worried that if I open too many pictures at once, my lack of a pagefile could catch up with me :)

[Mark Miller]

We use 2 different ones. Arcsoft 2001 and Microsoft picture it 2001. neither are as good as paint shop pro but My wifes shots usually don't need that much work. She took a black and white of our cat with an old riccoh point and shoot and got published in reflection of the world 2001. It's published by The international Library of Photography. I think it's online under www.picture.com
If it is look for "Oh those Eyes" anyway to get back to the point they don't seem to use alot of memory.
Mark:)

[Mark Miller]

Hey Hire,
Just a quick addition to my other post. I think something might be wrong with your memory, I am no expert, but think about this. Lots of people use paint shop pro. Very few people have anywhere the kind of mem you are talking about. Even with virtual mem, not even close. I have never seen a commercial program call for anything close to that. Granted it might spike, but thats aload of mem. Not being critical, but maybe you should check it.
If I am totally off base let me know as I am always trying to learn new stuff.
Happy Turkey Mark

[hiredgoonz]

Could be, upon further inspection, my memory spikes when I open a folder full of pictures with Windows XP's filmstrip function turned on. Must be what's doing it...

Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. I guess I was too close to the problem to see that big inconsistency in my memory usage...