Motherboard Advice

[jimmyca69]

Hi guys,

Here is an oppurtunity to use your knowledge.

I am going to build myself a PC comprising an Athlon XP2100 CPU and 256MB Crucial PC2700 RAM with GeForce4 MX440 64MB RAM Graphics card, and 40GB 7200rpm Hard drive. That is the basics of the machine that i am getting but am confused on which motherboard to get.

I think i am narrowed down to 2 - the Asus A7V333 or the ABIT KX7-333. I could be swayed outside these two though. I am edging towards the asus but had a bad experience with one previously.

What i want to know is any experience of the xp2100 with the motherboard and also experience of the crucial ram with the motherboard. I want to get a motherboard that will have system bus of 266mhz and cpu clock at 133 mhz. Im not that interested in overclocking just want to get the best of these parts naturally. I do want some scope for upgrading in the future and i also would like broadband at some stage.

Any help would be great.

cheers

[BigBlue66]

Best bang for the buck right now might be the MSI KT3 Ultra2. It has the KT333 chipset and a 133Mhz system bus which is doubled at the CPU level to 266Mhz. It will run either PC2100 (266Mhz) or PC2700 (333Mhz) memory.

The XP 2100+ and Crucial RAM should work very well on this board.

Keep in mind though that the 2100+ is one of the hottest running XP chips they make, so good cooling is essential.

Also, don't skimp on the power supply. Get a good brand name and at least 400 watts to allow for future expansion. I use the Antec True Power 430 which has plenty of juice and runs quietly.

[gwallen4]

Read the AnandTech Review of the new nForce2 motherboards.

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1759

[jimmyca69]

right so far got an idea of

Asus A7V333, ABIT KX7-333, MSI KT3 Ultra2 and for a little more price wise the EPOX ep-8RDA

anyone out there who can explain the benefits of an nforce2 chipset?

[Whyzman]

I do want some scope for upgrading in the future

I'm wading through this myself as I'm putting the pieces together for a gaming system.

If you're going for the PC2700 RAM this has 333Mhz capability...so if you go with a board with a Kt333 chipset, that only offers a 266Mhz "freeway." Upgrading to a faster processor would then require changing Motherboards. The processor you've selected has a 266Mhz Front Side Bus.

So, you're RAM will be "held back" to the processor's 266.

With the future in mind....you might want to consider a board such as the MSI Kt4VL...with the Kt400 chipset designed for 333Mhz your RAM at 333Mhz would match...slowed only by your current choice of processor with a 266FSB.

You could upgrade in the future to the Athlon 2600+ and higher which have a 333FSB and you'd be squeezing the max from the system as everything would be running at 333Mhz...

Am I making sense? I hope all of Saphaline's teaching has not gone to naught! :( :D

Oops, this board also has the new 8X AGP and will work with DX9

Oops, back again...A recent discussion came up regarding the A7V333 and a BIOS upgrade that could take it to handle 333Mhz...

Oh, also...the OEM price of the Kt4VL is only $89.00 at NewEgg...the money I'm saving will go for RAM or Vid Card...

Did I do good Saph? :D

[jimmyca69]

thats the kind of info i need! cheers Whyzman.

Im thinking the Epox Ep-8RDA mobo might be worth the extra money. Its 333mhz isnt it? and it supports the 333mhz XP chips as well. So gives me the oppurtunity in the future to upgrade to XP2700 etc.

does that make sense?

[Whyzman]

Jimmy,

I need to hit the road, so I don't have time to check out the specs of the board you mention. You would want to make sure that it has the KT400 chipset which would then support the 333Mhz processors, not the KT333 chipsets which only support 266Mhz.

I think that's the way it works...:confused: Hehe!

And, I think you want to also look to the future with the 8X AGP for Vid Card upgrading...don't know if your selected card currently supports that...

[jimmyca69]

the epox is a nforce2 chipset which supports i THINK supports 333mhz. It also has 1 x AGP x8 slot.

can anyone advise on whether it supports 333mhz?

[Whyzman]

http://www.epox.com/html/motherboard.asp?product=EP-8RDAplus&lang=1

Yep, it supports 333FSB...

It gets confusing though, because it wants PC3200 RAM which runs at 400Mhz....even if you would have a Processor with a 400FSB....wouldn't you have a bottleneck with the Motherboard's 333Mhz capability?

Hmmmmmmmmm...........still wading! :confused:

[jimmyca69]

yep its confusing me too!

im currently looking into the Epox 8RDA and the MSI KT4 ultra.

I know that i want to accomodate my pc2700 ddr ram and that even though im only using xp2100 processor i can upgrade easily to say the 33mhz xp2700 etc.

Like you said though now mobo's are supporting 400mhz ram - but i read that these ones are basically just running at 333mhz.

even more confusing is that on one site it said that the xp2100 has a max of 333fsb! If that is the case then i should have the components for it all to run at 333mhz with no bottlenecks. But is it true?

i keep getting varying messages from different sites regarding fsb support etc.

"Tomorrow’s Technology Today
The AMD Athlon XP processor's advanced architectural features help ensure outstanding levels of performance. These features include:
• QuantiSpeed™ Architecture
• 384K Total High-Performance, Full-Speed Cache
• Advanced 333mhz Front-Side Bus
• 3DNow!™ Professional Technology (72 instructions, full SSE compatibility)
• Support for Double Data Rate (DDR) Memory
• Established Socket A Infrastructure"

[BigBlue66]

Ok, well see, the reason I offered up the KT3 Ultra2 as a viable solution is because of all the problems with the KT400 chipset. I personally am waiting for the (a ) version of that chipset to come out before I upgrade.

On the other hand, the Nforce2 is supposedly a kick-arse chip and should be serioulsy considered in your plans.

If you are trying to stay current with technology, forget it. It can never happen. You may think you have the best and latest there is to offer, but tomorrow they will come up with something that's supposedly even better.

With all that said, I see that the Hyperion 4 in 1 driver is out now from VIA that supposedly really helps the KT400 and P4S400 chipset to truly offer up great performance.

Decisions, decisions.

[jimmyca69]

what problems are there with the KT400 chipset??

im not worried about keeping on top of technology - just allowing some scope to expand ie a mobo capable of taking a bigger chip and also being able to put in a better graphics card (8x agp) when i have the money. Dont want a board that will be limited to what i put in it. I wanna play around with it in the future.

Having said all this im still undecided between the Epox 8RDA Nforce and the MSI KT400 ultra. Everyone has high opinions of them - just trying to decipher between them.

thanks for all your help so far guys - this is truely a great forum. Any further suggestions would be great, im off to get the facts for both and decide.

Jimmy

[Whyzman]

I haven't seen any of the XP2100s with a 333FSB...to my knowledge they're all 266FSB.

Have you already purchased your processor? The reason I'm asking is because Saphalline pointed out to me the other day that the processors to watch for are the "Thoroughbred" AMDs with the new .13 micron core architecture. They run cooler...

I opted for the XP1800 Thoroughbred 266FSB from NewEgg with a $69.00 OEM price. My thought is as I addressed earlier, upgrading to a 333FSB processor when they drop down.

I figured that I won't be losing that much in performance over the XP2200/266FSB Thoroughbred that's at $153.00 OEM from NewEgg. I'll take the price difference and spend it toward the RAM.

You would want to look for the AXDA Prefix to the model number for the Thoroughbred processors.

I was just looking back over the information I received from Saphalline and it indeed appears that the three major components: Processor, Motherboard, and RAM all need to be able to pass information at the same FSB speed to squeeze the most out of the system.

For the AMD Processors right now it looks like were at 333FSB. PC2700 RAM matches that at 333FSB, and the Kt400 chipsets on Motherboards also are 333FSB.

[jimmyca69]

Im trying to get confirmation tht the XP2100+ is a thoroughbred, if it is then i will probably go ahead and get the XP2100+ cpu, the crucial pc2700 ram, and the MSI KT400 Ultra mobo. With the intentions of getting an xp2700/xp2800 when the prices come way down in the future.

Still a but confused as to the fsb ratings - i understand what fsb is but i keep seeing various amounts for the same mobo's - on one website it will say 333mhz fsb and then say it has a maz of 166mhz fsb? :(

Not quite sure how all this ties together. any help on why they give these different settings?

[Whyzman]

The Motherboards will normally show all speeds that it is "capable" of running. Those speeds, of course, can all be "bottlenecked" by the choice of Processor and RAM.

[jimmyca69]

yeah but why would it say it had max of 100/133/166mhz fsb?

is there some different setting that runs at these speeds?

[Whyzman]

Probably a translation thing...most are made overseas. ;)

The Max of course in your example would be the 166FSB, given that all components can match that.

[jimmyca69]

this is the link to the msi page for the MSI KT4 Ultra (ms6590)

This is what is confusing me - the FSB supported clock speed. Which says 100/133/166mhz. Now they keep throwing in fsb terms.

Just for clarification, what is the difference between the fsb and fsb clock speed??

http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=356&MODEL=MS-6590

[gwallen4]

100/133/166 is the clock speed in MHz. Since it supports DDR or double data rate, the data is transferred at twice that speed or 200/266/333 MHz. Some people quote the clock rate as the speed of the FSB and others quote the data rate.

[jimmyca69]

cheers gwallen - was getting a little confused seeing various fsb speeds. They dont really let you know which they are showing.

I actually just found a site that shows it in the format of 100(200mhz)/133(266mhz)/166(333mhz) and kinda figured out that there were two ways to show it.

right back on track now, all i am trying to discover is to see if the xp2100+ is a thoroughbred core.....


whyzman - u mentioned that the xp1800+ was a thoroughbred, are all xp's thoroughbred's? and if not why not!

I did have a link on the amd website that gave a table of the cpu's when they were released and details of the core etc. anyone know it?

[gwallen4]

Thunderbirds were conventional Athlons and were clocked up to 1.4 GHz.

The Athlon XP at first was a Palomino which has a .18 micron core. I believe the fastest Palomino was the XP2100+.

AMD then began producing Thoroughbreds with a .13 micron core. The XP2200+ was the first one manufactured, but I think AMD may be producing some slower Thoroughbreds now. New Egg advertizes a Thoroughbred XP1700+

The Thoroughbred has a distinctly rectangular core, whereas the Palomino was squarish.

There is absolutely no performance difference between Palominos and Thoroughbreds clocked at the same frequency. However, the Thoroughbreds, because of the smaller architecture, produce marginally less heat.

NewEgg sells mostly Thoroughbreds. GoogleGear's XP2100+ is a Palomino I think. If you have to have a Thoroughbred just ask when you order it.

[jimmyca69]

where i am ordering it from doesnt let me know which core it is. Its XP2100 so im not really bothered whether it is palomino or thoroughbred tbh, but woul dhave ideally liked it to be thoroughbred.

cheers for the info

[gwallen4]

Power Comparison - AMD Athlon XP (Palomino & Thoroughbred Cores)

Maximum Heat Dissipation Manufacturing Process
AMD Athlon XP 1500+ (Palomino) 60.0W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1600+ (Palomino) 62.8W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (Palomino) 64.0W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (Palomino) 66.0W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1900+ (Palomino) 68.0W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (Palomino) 70.0W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2100+ (Palomino) 72.0W 0.18-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (Thoroughbred-A) 49.4W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1800+ (Thoroughbred-A) 51.0W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 1900+ (Thoroughbred-A) 52.5W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (Thoroughbred-A) 60.3W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2100+ (Thoroughbred-A) 62.1W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2200+ (Thoroughbred-A) 67.9W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (Thoroughbred-B) 61.3W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2200+ (Thoroughbred-B) 62.8W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2400+ (Thoroughbred-B) 68.3W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2600+ (Thoroughbred-B) 68.3W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2700+ (Thoroughbred-B) 68.3W 0.13-micron
AMD Athlon XP 2800+ (Thoroughbred-B) 74.3W 0.13-micron

You could call NewEgg and see if they sell the Thoroughbred or the Palomino. Their already low price ($105 for the retail version) includes shipping.

[Whyzman]

Interesting....just looking at the XP2100s there's near a 10W difference. I would suspect that there might be some kind of relationship to heat...

[saphalline]

Hehe, yep Whyzman, you did good in my absense! :D Been doing lots of cleaning, and also lots of password guessing. :rolleyes: Stupid, stupid, stupid of me!

Nice chart, gwallen4! :cool: Pretty neat to see them all lined up. But yeah, the only core that AMD is producing right now is the T-bred B. There are still Palomino and T-bred A inventories out there that vendors are trying to clear out, tho, so I suggest anyone in the market for a new AthlonXP should ask for the specific CPU ID string to make sure it starts with AXDA. If it doesn't, it's an older core, and you can obviously see from the chart that older cores are much hotter, and also far less overclockable. Even if you don't intend to overclock, the extra headroom will make sure your processor isn't always "on edge" so to speak (affects stability).

BigBlue66 also had good info on chipsets there. The KT400 chipset is the current VIA leader, with the KT400A due out next month. It will also be a dual-DDR chipset, just like NVidia's NForce2. The only problem with being a dual-DDR chipset is that you need to populate two DIMM slots with RAM in order to see the performance benefits. The NForce2 chipset is also designed to be capable of onboard video (roughly GF4 MX class) but not all boards will have this option. This is for those of us who use much better graphics cards than a GF4 MX. ;) For most people, tho, the KT333 and KT400 chipsets are good enough for now. With a BIOS update, most KT333-based motherboards support the new 333MHz fsb speed. The KT400 supports this natively, and also offers up DDR400 RAM, while the KT333 only does DDR333 (which is fine).

If anyone's interested, Anandtech (www.anandtech.com/) also has some in-depth articles on upcoming CPU cores from both Intel and AMD. AMD's new ones are Barton (AthlonXP replacement) and of course the new 64-bit procs (which have an interesting trick up their sleeves ;) ). Reading these articles just confirms the fact that it's absolutely impossible to stay on the cutting edge of technology!

[jimmyca69]

Seems as though the mfr code for the xp2100 im looking at is ADUAX2100BOX. Which i assume is a palamino core.

The only code within that range that starts axda is the xp2200, but that is £113.90 ($179) while the xp2100 is £80.36 ($126.71) so there is quite a price difference.

I intend to have a couple of system fans as well as the amd approved heatsink and fan that comes with the processor, so given that im not too concerned that its not t-bred.

[Whyzman]

Jimmy,

For right now I would say that the most important thing is the future...

Your selections, as well as mine for my upcoming build, are designed to be able to upgrade without having to change out multiple components. Looks like we're both just a 333FSB processor away from speed parity "across the board," so to speak! ;)

[jimmyca69]

yep looking forward to getting it all setup now - having a system that will run at 333mhz right across the board would be fantastic - although i dont doubt that very soon we will be having the same discussion about getting 666mhz across the board!!

The only bit of info i havent got from this thread is any experience of using a MSI KT4 Ultra board and experience of setting it up etc. Anyone out there with any experience of it, especially with the xp2100 it would be great to hear your thoughts.

cheers once again for all your help

[jimmyca69]

just to let you guys know that i have purchased the MSI KT4 Ultra mobo, along with Athlon XP2100+, 256MB PC2700 Ram and a 30GB ATA 133 7200rpm Hard drive.

Adding that to my other parts, my 16x DVD ROM, 48x16x48 CD-RW, GeForce2 MX220 32MB Graphics i think i have a good machine for now. Hopefully i have a bit of room for improvement when prices come down.

I am building it tonight so hopefully i wont be posting any problems that i have.

and Whyzman : Motherboard - up to 333mhz fsb, Memory up to 333mhz (realistically), CPU up to 266mhz - so looking at the mo at a system running at 266mhz until cpu upgrade - but nice to know all can cope with that!

cheers for all the info you provided.

[jimmyca69]

just an update -

i built the machine last night, and it went very smoothly.

Got it running at 266mhz across the board, and it is great!

already looking forward though to getting 333 mhz across but im willing to wait.

[Whyzman]

Nice job Jimmy!! Congrats! ;)