Strange intermittent boot problem

[Handy Andy]

Hi everyone,

My computer is having intermittent boot problems which seem to be getting more regular and more annoying!

When I switch on, immediately, the hard disk whirs up as normal, but the cd-rom light blinks (instead of coming on and staying on for a number of seconds) and the cd-rom makes a noise as if it is trying to start. The HD LED blinks too as well, the power LED is on, and the other LED (with a picture of a light bulb) is blinking.

The screen does NOT come on and there are NO beeps.

If I try to switch off with the front-panel power button, I cannot, even if I press it for a very long time. The only way I can power off is by flicking the big black master power switch at the back.

When I turn back on, it ALWAYS happens again a second time and sometimes even a 3rd time.

After several attempts of powering off and powering on, the system eventually comes up with the following (BIOS ?) message:

“System failed to boot 3 times and so is now running at safe speed. Press any key to continue or del to enter setup”

If I press any key, the system will boot at 200 Mhz instead of 233.

If I press del to go into setup and exit without saving, it will occasionally re-boot at the correct speed (233 Mhz)

**
It’s important to note that when the system does boot first time correctly at 233 Mhz (70 % of the time), all peripherals, drives and software work without any problem.
**

My system:
Legend V motherboard with intel 440LX chipset
Processor: Intel Pentium II 233 Mhz MMX

In the motherboard doc, it states it supports Pentium II processors at 233/266/300/333 Mhz and that it supports 66 Mhz bus speed.

On the primary IDE, I have the hard drive as the master and a Hitachi CD-rom drive as the slave.
On the secondary IDE, I have a Philips CD burner set up as the master.

There are 3 DIMM slots. In the 1st, I have a 64 MB SDRAM and a 128 MB SDRAM in the second.

I have a soundblaster 16 ISA sound card.

I have also an ATI Xpert@work graphics card on a AGP slot.

PS2 mouse and keyboard.

US robotics 56K modem connected to serial port.

The operating system is Windows ME.


History
----------

I have owned the computer since 1998 (it originally ran with 32 MB RAM, didn’t have the cd burner and was running Win 95) I have never had these problems before.

Recent changes to the system was to increase the RAM, install the burner and upgrade from 95 to ME.

BIOS settings are setup for stability rather than optimum speed ( eg CAS latency is at 3)


I really need your help on this as this PC is critical to my daily work.

Thanks !

Handy Andy

[YODA74]

try setting it up for optimal ME is a touchy son of a gun? if that
does not help hang in there some one will figure out something! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif

[BigBlue66]

Hi and Welcome,

Sounds like a possible video card problem to me, since you say there are no beeps. If you can, try to borrow a PCI video card for testing purposes. ME may not like your ATI vid card either.

When you say you upgraded from 95 to ME, was ME a clean install or did you install over top of 95?

Also, are your RAM sticks the same in every respect? It's usually recommended to install the largest and/or fastest RAM in the first memory slot that the computer reads. What speed is your RAM? If it's 133Mhz, you might try to at least set the CAS back to 2. However, since you only have a 66Mhz FSB, and if you do have 133Mhz RAM, there may be too much of a spread in the speeds, even though most RAM is supposed to be backward compatible.

Let us know answers to the above. Also, when exactly did the boot problems start? Did you upgrade the RAM and OS at the same time? If not, did the problems start after you upgraded either the memory or the OS?

Another thing you could check is whether or not the CPU is firmly seated as well as all IDE ribbon cables, RAM, etc.

Hang tight. We'll get this one figured out.

Cheers,

Big Blue 66


------------------
Um, I must have been drunk at the time.

[Handy Andy]

Thanks to both of you for answering so soon.

Some answers:

- I don't think the problem is coming from Windows since if and when the boot fails, it is almost immediate and certainly way before the OS kicks in.

- The Win ME install was an upgrade from 95 and the install went pretty smoothly.

- In order, on the same weekend (a very busy one http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ), I installed the burner, upgraded the RAM and then upgraded windows. I estimate that problems started 2-3 weeks later....

- The RAM sticks are not identical, and I agree with you that this is a likely cause. Slot 1, I have 64MB at 100 Mhz and in slot 2, I have 128 MB at 133Mhz. I have done a lot of surfing on the internet to find as much info as possible and have read that this chipset (intel 440LX) should really have 66 Mhz RAM. I'm going to try and get some tomorrow and try that for starters. I hope it is still sold !

- Everything is firmly seated in their slots.

- Unfortunately, I cannot get hold of another video card for testing.

Thanks again, and I'll report back tomorrow.

[Handy Andy]

Just to let you know, I couldn't find any 66 Mhz SDRAM in the shops, so I ordered some via the internet and so will have to wait a few days.

In the meantime I discovered that the floppy drive ribbon connector wasn't properly seated. - Some of the pins were in, some of them weren't (on the drive end) I have obviously now properly reseated it. Could this have caused the symptoms I was seeing ?

[Handy Andy]

HELP !

I have just re-installed some good quality 66 Mhz RAM in the system, but to no avail. - I am still getting these intermittent boot hangs.

What could be causing this ?

I really need your help on this.

[danleff]

Hi;

First, keep that 66 mhz ram installed.

I wonder if the power supply is going bad, or if it has trouble handling the load at times. The more hardware you add, the more power load. Either way, this could be the problem. What power supply wattage do you have?

[Handy Andy]

Hi

The power supply is 250 W


I have been keeping an eye on things and have noticed that the first boot-up of the day is usually ok. The problem seems to occur if I use the computer for a few hours, shutdown, and then power up again.

This would lead me to believe that this could be heat-related. This could make sense as I have recently moved house and now live in a warmer climate and the room that the computer is in can sometimes reach 75-80 °F

Could someone a bit more experienced than myself re-read the symptoms I'm experiencing and let me know if this could indeed be heat-related ?

If so, what can I do ? I already have a Pentium II CPU fan and a PSU fan. What else can I do ?

Thanks.

[danleff]

Hi;

Now we may be getting somewhere.

One problem could be heat related. Try setting a small fan to blow toward the system, perhaps with one of the case covers off near where the fan is blowing. If the problem decreases, consider a system fan, such as one that fits in one 5 1/4 drive bay, or a fan that fits into one of the expansion slot covers on the back of an empty PCI/ISA slot. They can be had for about 10-20 dollars. This may improve the ventilation. With all the stuff you have in this system, a lot of heat can be generated.

You recently installed Win ME? Go to the ATI web site and lok for an updated driver for the video card specific for WIN ME, not a beta driver, but a certified/tested one. Look up your specific video card and any problems in the support section of the web site.

Do you have Norton Virus running in the system? This can conflict with the ATI video card.

I still wonder with all the peripherals you have, if the power supply is flaky. You may want to try to disconnect the CD Burner (since you installed this recently - disconnect it totally, ribbon cable and power cable and see what happens. If the problem goes away, then you know that the power supply may be at fault.

Finally, keep the cover off and make sure that CPU the fan is aways running, especially at reboot.

[Handy Andy]

Thanks for the reply.

I disconnected the cd burner (ribbons and power) and still get the problem.

I already had the latest drivers for the video card, but to be honest, I don't think is a software issue at all since if the problem occurs it occurs even before the POST (the system doesn't even have beep once)

Yes I have Norton running but have had this running way before getting these problems.

I don't have a table fan, but I will try and get one shortly.

I still suspect heat, especially due to the intermittent nature of the problem, but I would really appreciate some of the experts on here to give me their opinions, before I go ordering any stuff.

[Handy Andy]

Hi

I thought I would report back to this forum as this could be of help to others.

I took my computer to bits and found that the heatsink on the Pentium II processor had come slightly loose at the bottom.

After a close look, I noticed that the fan wire had got tangled between the processor cartridge and the heatsink / fan. This minute gap was enough to cause the processor to heat up. After an hour, if I shut down and re-booted, the processor was too hot for boot up. As described above, it would eventually boot up but at a slower clock speed (as a safety measure I suppose)

I re-seated the heatsink / fan with the clips (not easy). - There is now a tight fit between the 2.

I also installed a case fan at the front of the case at the bottom to blow air into the case to improve air flow.

The processor is now much cooler (I can feel the difference) and the PC seems to be booting up fine (even after intensive use)

I'm just thinking, I'm lucky the PC didn't boot up with these problems, as the processor would probably be fried by now !!

Big thanks to those of you who replied and to the people that run the site.

I am a software person normally (internet developer) and only knew basic hardware stuff before this episode. Thanks to this forum and the archives and the PC guide, I have learnt a huge amount about RAM, FSB, fan speeds, heatsink, thermal paste, airflow etc. etc.

So thanks to all and I hope you don't hear from me again if you see what I mean http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

I've bookmarked the site and will recommend it friends and colleagues.

Kind wishes.

PS - One thing I found a shame when I was searching through the archives on the forum was the amount of people who post a problem but then didn't bother to report back with positive feedback whan all was well. - I found many threads with similar symptoms to mine, but only very few reported back with feedback to confirm the problem was solved and what the solution in fact was......

Comments ?

[danleff]

Hi;

Kudos for solving the problem! Go figure! The crux of the problem was double of triple checking the work that you did. Just goes to show you that sometimes it is not always "cut" and dry (pun intended). The important point is that one learns a good deal troubleshooting these problems.

I agree. It's always nice to know if the information you provide is helpful to assist others in troubleshooting. Heck, I overlook things all the time. Learning is the art of the process. Someone said" Practice makes perfect, if only the perfect practice."

I sure everyone appreciates the feedback, I learned something today.

I love it when a plan comes together, even when it's not mine.

[This message has been edited by danleff (edited 08-26-2001).]