My first network

[Mark Miller]

I can't believe I am actually going to be doing this.
Anyway I have a Belkin wireless 802.11g dsl/cable router, a p4 desktop running Xp which the cablemodem is connected and a brand new cetrino notebook that is set up for wireless networking [802.11b].
My question is am I missing anything for the setup? Do I need anything else for my desktop, such as another nic card? Also should I shut off my firewall and use just the one that comes on the router?
I know this has probably been asked before but I am too nervous to go look for the old thread.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Mark:)

[Reid]

I do not know if it is the same model you have, but one review said it also has an integrated 4 port 10/100Base-T Ethernet switch, so it could connect to the desktop by cable. Just one NIC needed in the desktop.

I still run firewall software because it can detect trojans and spyware programs if they get into the system.

In your sig, should that be "What does it all mean"?

[Mark Miller]

Thanks Reid,
And yeah thats what the sig should say. Actrually I thought it did.
Mark:D

[jeeza]

Originally posted by Mark Miller
I can't believe I am actually going to be doing this.
Anyway I have a Belkin wireless 802.11g dsl/cable router, a p4 desktop running Xp which the cablemodem is connected and a brand new cetrino notebook that is set up for wireless networking [802.11b].
Can you tell me someting ?
The idea of wireless Internet is a very attractive one to me, but maybe I am not clear on something.
Aren't you saying here that you are using cables ?
I seem to detect some kind of contradiction here, but it can't be of course.

[PrntRhd]

I can tell you are excited. This is probably going to be a hybrid wired/wireless network?
Wireless is like wired, but be sure to take precautions on the wireless side of things because the wireless reaches beyond your physical walls. This means anyone with wireless equipment can use your entire network if it is not secured. Security minimum requires turning on WEP/WAP encription to keep transmissions from being plain text, but this encription is weak and has been shown to be easily compromised. If possible turn on MAC identification authentication so only your authorized devices will connect with the wireless access point.

Someone will explain further, suggest reading up on wireless issues ASAP.

:)

[pave_spectre]

Originally posted by jeeza
Aren't you saying here that you are using cables ?

What hes saying is that hes using a cable-modem to connect to the internet which is being shared on a wireless network.

[Reid]

Originally posted by jeeza

Aren't you saying here that you are using cables ?
It sounded to me like it was going to be a hybrid network. The desktop is already connected by cable and only the notebook is going to be wireless.

[Mark Miller]

Jeeza,
Reid has got it right.
The desktop is hooked up to the router which is hooked up to the cable modem. The only thing wireless is the notebook, which shares the internet connection with the desktop through the router and the wireless card which is part of what the centrino chips are all about.
Unfortunately I have still not gotten the file sharing end down pat, but that is another story.
The notebook can be used anywhere in the house and I don't pay for a second connection, pretty cool I think
Mark:)

[jeeza]

Mark,
Looks neat. Does that wireless connection to your notebook reach only inside your house, or does it extend farther away ?
How far can you go with a wireless connection ?
And how are you going to stop others from tapping into your wireless connection (this might be a silly question) ?

[Mark Miller]

Hi Jeeza,
Can't tell if it works outside the house as we live in a high rise on the beach:D [Miami] but it does work on both balconies. The furthest I can tell you for sure is about 100 ft. I'm not the biggest security fuss bucket, but I do use wep which is an alright, not the best, security to prevent other people from using our small network.
The whole setup took about 10 minutes and worked right out of the box.
What you need is a wireless router either b or g[ your connection will never use all the b strength which is 11mb, but for file sharing the g which is 22mb is probably better] a broadband connection a nic card in the desktop and if using a notebook some kind of wireless card in it.
I went with Belkin but there are plenty of choices.
the Centrino chip in the notebook takes care of the wireless part and is really good at saving the battery [I get 3-4 hours between charges]
Ask me anything you need to know as I can pretty much tell you what to do.
Mark:D

[Bullman]

Mark,

That sounds like a pretty good set-up you have there. I am hopefully getting DSL this next week, and this looks like the way I want my 3 Desktops to work. It sounds like it would work even though you used a Laptop. If you dont mind me asking, what brand of router and wireless cards are you using? Also, would it be that easy for someone to use your connection? Wouldnt they need to know like some type of Password and all the info your ISP gives you to set up your connection? I dont know much about the Internet and networking of computers, I figured it would be difficult to steal a connection. My neighbors live pretty close to me, but I dont think they look like the "hacker type". But then again, I dont look like the type that would even know how to turn on a computer.:D

Edit: I just reread your last post and noticed you said you used Belkin. Do you have to use the same name brand for your router and your wireless cards?

[Budfred]

You can mix and match as much as you would like, but it may make configuration a little easier if they are the same. Often chain stores have sales of the whole setup from one brand and sometimes those are a good deal. If you have a Micro Center nearby, they have a couple of them on sale right now.

You do have to be more careful about wireless systems. There are people who drive around looking for signals to leech on. They don't necessarily have to live in your neighborhood. There are some protections you can set up and it is generally a good idea to use them...

[PrntRhd]

I think Wifi distance is 300 feet, 100 feet indoors.
I am glad you turned on WEP, 80% don't even turn that on.
:rolleyes:

[Mark Miller]

Hi Bullman,
I used a Belkin wireless router that had four ports to plug in any computer that I want wired [might work for you]
The notebook came with the wireless card installed. You need a network card in all your desktops.
Budfred is right about people getting onto your network. they do not need a password, just the ability to spot your network. Most routers come with some kind of security and a firewall. I do recommend that you use a software firewall also on each machine as this will guard what goes out.
Got to any computer store and they'll set you right up. I'm not great with hardware and as I said it took all of 10 minutes.
Oh by the way you will need cat 5 cables for all the wired computers to connect to the router. Depending on what you need as far as network cards and the router and possibly the wireless cards for desktop or laptop it should not be overly expensive. I don't want to quote prices because I am not very good with getting the best price.
If Budfred is still reading this thread, he is really great with deals and prices.
Mark:D Actually the wireless card is part of the centrino system, Intel

[Bullman]

Thanks guys, I didnt want to hijack your thread, it looked like you were all set up so I figured I'd give it a shot. I have seen a Linksys router with the wireless PCI cards at my nearest Wal-mart. I get things there if I can cause the have a great return policy, and I usually get the wrong one to start with.:rolleyes:

Let me throw this out and see if I get close.

The phone line comes out of the wall, connects into DSL modem, and then a Cat 5 cable from modem to first PC? With a network, I will connect DSL modem to Router, then Cat 5 to first PC? Does my first PC also have to be connected wireless. I would like a hardwired connection into my pc for the best connection. The other two PC's will be the kids and my Wifes, and they can use the wireless.

I am one of those people that need to see something done b4 I can understand, then after that I have a slight notion of what to do. I have a Best Buy around, but it is usually hard to find someone that knows more than I do, and that isnt much.

My modem should be here next week. I am waiting for a phone call from the phone company to tell me they made a mistake, and my phone line doesnt meet specs.:) Been on dial-up for over two years.

[PrntRhd]

You can have your PC wired if you wish, almost any combination you want.
:D

[Budfred]

BestBuy has LinkSys on sale this week for wireless routers... Looks like some decent prices. The wireless setup will cost more than a wired setup...

[jeeza]

Originally posted by Mark Miller
Budfred is right about people getting onto your network. they do not need a password, just the ability to spot your network.
Of course, I don't see how you would need a password to receive those wireless signals.
I think once you have a wireless 'connection' you can't rightly talk about the 'Internet' anymore.
Why ? Because in order to receive signals which I suppose are a kind of radio waves there is no need for a network as such anymore. No network = no internet !
It's like radio. All you need is a receiver. Nobody talks about 'the radio network'.
Moreover, you don't need to be part of a network to tap into such a wireless connection.
In my opinion, this is something very different from the Internet.

What is WEP ?

[PrntRhd]

WEP:wep (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/WEP.html)

[Mark Miller]

Bullman, check this site out for wireless networking.
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/wireless-network.htm
Jeeza,
If I understand what you are saying, yes it is radio signals that make wireless works, but you are on the net through sharing of the connection As I said before the beauty is to move around and not be hooked into anything with wires. Also only paying for 1 connection and having the whole family being able to go online or share files, printers and such at the same time.
Saved alot of fighting with my wife as to who is going to be doing what. She can play her games and answer her e-mail from our bed. Cool!!!!!!
Mark:)

[PrntRhd]

This stuff is out there, so security is always an issue:wireless (http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/accessories/666e/)

[Bullman]

Wow!!!! This is all beginning to make me think a wireless setup should not ever be used. Is a firewall not designed to keep people from tapping into a network if within range? I really do not have my pc's close enough to run a wired setup. I looked at the free firewalls in MJC's info. Are "free" firewalls good enough for security? I was thinking of downloading the free Zonealarm version for 2 PC's, and the third (the one I just built) had Norton Internet Security on the provided CD. Why would anyone use wireless if it is so insecure?


I have finally decided....... I am going to wrap my house in aluminum foil!!:D

[PrntRhd]

(Now that we have your attention)

Here is a good wireless security article, keep reading and especially read the last page for the fixes.here (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1159639,00.asp):p

[Mark Miller]

Bullman,
It's not that scary or hard. I have been running my little network for over 2 months and no problems. As I said I use wep with a software firewall and a good anti virus [just like a regular single computer].
I am no hardware maven and it took 10 minutes to set up. The cat 5 hook up taking the longest time.
Great freedom
Mark

[Budfred]

The free firewalls are actually somewhat better than some of the one's you pay for. I have Norton's, but I wouldn't use it unless I was desperate.

[jeeza]

Thanks for the links, Prnt Rhd.
Mark, what I was trying to say was that just as in radio, anyone who has a receiver can listen. Radio waves don't belong to anybody, just as air doesn't.
Electronic pulses are transmitted through cables, fiber or optical or whatever, and these belong to someone, so they make you pay for connecting you.

OK, so WEP means encrypted radio signals. That's about the only way you can make sure nobody else can understand those signals, except those who have the encryption/decryption keys, and that would be the paying person.
But as it is mentioned in the article to which Prnt Rhsd gave the link (Exploiting and Protecting 802.11b Wireless Networks), "WEP is wide open". It's basically insecure.

Two weeks ago, a program named AirSnort appeared on the Internet. AirSnort, a program that runs on a Linux system with a 2.4 kernel and Prism-based NICS, takes advantage of the exploit outlined in the Fluherer, Mantin, Shamir paper, and can discover a WEP key after passively monitoring a wireless network. According to the site (http://airsnort.sourceforge.net), AirSnort can determine the WEP key in seconds after "listening" to 100MB-1GB of traffic.
which is alarming, isn't it ?

The AirSnort guys do have a sense of humor, whether this is enough to get themselves redeemed I don't know : http://airsnort.shmoo.com/airsnort1-sm.jpg
:D :p

[jeeza]

Originally posted by Bullman
Why would anyone use wireless if it is so insecure?
A candid question, inviting a candid reply : for the same reason that lots of people use the internet without security measures. Because they don't know or understand anything about it, or don't care.

[Mark Miller]

Actually you can protect yourself pretty well. The reason for using it is convience and the freedom from wires, which in my house is terrific. Also not having to pay for another internet connection. I think wireless is great and I am sure better security will follow.
Try it, you'll like it.
Mark

[PrntRhd]

I agree, I posted those links to help those expecting to get wireless this Christmas to understand the ramifications, so hopefully they won't be hurt by the bad guys if they set it up properly.

FYI on that Linksys, it is now part of Cisco Systems, hence certified.

[jeeza]

Originally posted by Mark Miller
Actually you can protect yourself pretty well.
How so ? I didn't see any other means of protection than WEP, which according to the article is "basically insecure".
Add to that AirSnort which will, in less time than you need to say 'snort', detect your WEP key, and that other software mentioned in the article which scans all wireless stations in the neighborhood and gives you every information about them you need to know...

[pave_spectre]

A really good wirless router wont just rely on WEP, it will also allow the user to deny access to any machine that doesnt match a specific MAC/IP table that can be programmed into the router. Anyone driving by isnt going to have a MAC that matches an entry in the table and will automatically be denied.

[Mark Miller]

There is also a new protocal that I don't remember the name to. Comes on all the new routers. If I think of the name I will post back
Mark:)

[PrntRhd]

I think you mean WAP.

[Mark Miller]

That's it, I myself, foolishly, don't use it, but it's supposed to have much better security for wireless networks
Mark

[PrntRhd]

A really good wirless router wont just rely on WEP, it will also allow the user to deny access to any machine that doesnt match a specific MAC/IP table that can be programmed into the router. Anyone driving by isnt going to have a MAC that matches an entry in the table and will automatically be denied. from pave_spectre

Exactly! It also won't have the performance hit of WAP.

[jeeza]

Originally posted by Mark Miller
That's it, I myself, foolishly, don't use it, but it's supposed to have much better security for wireless networks
WAP ? I thought WAP was some protocol for getting the WWW on hand-helds or mobile telephones or something like this.

[Reid]

Wireless Application Protocol (WAP), a secure specification that allows users to access information instantly via handheld wireless devices such as mobile phones, pagers, two-way radios, smartphones and communicators.

Wired Equivalent Privacy (WEP), a security protocol for wireless local area networks (WLANs) defined in the 802.11b standard. WEP is designed to provide the same level of security as that of a wired LAN. LANs are inherently more secure than WLANs because LANs are somewhat protected by the physicalities of their structure, having some or all part of the network inside a building that can be protected from unauthorized access. WLANs, which are over radio waves, do not have the same physical structure and therefore are more vulnerable to tampering. WEP aims to provide security by encrypting data over radio waves so that it is protected as it is transmitted from one end point to another. However, it has been found that WEP is not as secure as once believed. WEP is used at the two lowest layers of the OSI model - the data link and physical layers; it therefore does not offer end-to-end security.

http://www.webopedia.com

[Mark Miller]

What Reid said. I stand corrected.
I am not as security conscious about my little network as I should be.
Mark:)

[jeeza]

What are you going to do about your security then, Mark ?

[Mark Miller]

Not much, as the security on each computer is very good [firewll anti-virus spybot] and I am not really that worried about the wireless as I live way up in a highrise and I don't think anyone within range has a wireless setup. Drive by Is just too far away. The wireless router I do use has some basic, real basic, security built in.
Thanks for asking
Mark:)

[jeeza]

Wouldn't it be possible for someone to drive up close, say within 100 or 200 m, and tap your wireless connection ?

[classicsoftware]

YES

[Mark Miller]

Absolutely, except I live on the 25th floor facing the water and I don't think anyone could DRIVE within a 1000 yards of where I actually live. There are 3 apts per floor and I don't think my neighbors are going to try and crack my network. Otherwise your 100% correct and I would take more precautions.
Mark:)

[mjc]

Actually the distance is a bit more than 100m or uards or whatever....and Mark...you may actually be broadcasting your signal in to a larger area because of the height.

[jeeza]

Originally posted by Mark Miller
(...)I live on the 25th floor facing the water and I don't think anyone could DRIVE within a 1000 yards of where I actually live. There are 3 apts per floor and I don't think my neighbors are going to try and crack my network.
Oh, well if you are living on top of almost a hundred families with some more on top of you, well that's of course completely different.
No danger at all to fear from that side...:rolleyes:
I have this vision I don't dare unveil to you... :D :eek: :cool:
Someone care to draw a cartoon about this ? :p

[PrntRhd]

There is also a new protocal that I don't remember the name to. Comes on all the new routers. If I think of the name I will post back

Actually it is WPA, but it is not much better:article (http://wifinetnews.com/archives/002452.html)

[jeeza]

WPA it is indeed, and here is another link confirming what we are now beginning to understand about its weakness :
http://wifinetnews.com/archives/002453.html

If you use the standard interface for WPA key entry and provide a text passphrase that uses words found in dictionaries of fewer than 20 characters, a cracker passively intercepting initial key exchange messages can employ an offline dictionary attack and extract the encryption key, gaining access to the network.

[jeeza]

Mark, if someone can tap your connection, he can also read anything you are sending out - your personal communications.

[Mark Miller]

Thanks Jeeza, Mjc,
I will upgrade when I get back from vacation.
Mark

[PrntRhd]

Linksys recommendations for security:here (http://www.linksys.com/edu/page10.asp)

[jeeza]

Originally posted by jeeza
Mark, if someone can tap your connection, he can also read anything you are sending out - your personal communications.
Actually this may sound silly to someone who knows more about it than I do, but I am sure theoretically this could be possible. I don't see why it shouldn't. There are enough people around who are handy with this kind of thing. The fact that there are at this moment about 63,000 known viruses should tell one enough.

[jeeza]

Well, it was an interesting thread (and forum). That's all.