RIAA files suit against 12 year old, among others.

[steveo]

Here (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/116117p-104761c.html)

[Budfred]

Yeah, we will see a lot of this kind of thing and the music industry is definitely going to stop music piracy with this approach...... right about the time that I am elected Supreme Ruler of the Universe !!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[setoguro]

It looks like their going for the shock effect. For Gods sake nailing a naive 12 year old kid! Have they no shame?

[Abbadon]

The same kind of things are happening in Europe, although no 12 year old ones so far. I'v been wondering what kind of lessons children will "learn" from getting sued by a multimiliondollarcompany of government agency.

Here's the results I've seen so far: people stop downloading music, go to the local library to get some recent cd's and copy them, getting better quality music for the same price (0€) and just a little more trouble. Additionaly, they can use their scanners and printers to obtian a nice cd-cover as well.

Lesson learned: circumventing the systems gets you better stuff. :rolleyes:

P.S.: I'd vote for Budfred. Power to the Geeks!

EDIT:

just bumped into this trough slashdot:

here (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=501&u=/ap/20030909/ap_on_en_mu/downloading_music_11&printer=1)

[steveo]

The way I see it, people will become more defiant, more clever in getting what they want. P2P isn't the only game in town and more and more people will gravitate away from it as I have for greener pastures and virtual invisibility.

[pave_spectre]

I know more people who share stuff via LAN meetings that never ever touch P2P software. And a number of them know people who work for major software companies including Microsoft and Adobe who are willing to supply the software for nothing.
As for music piracy the music has to come from somewhere initially so at least one person is probably buying the albums that are being shared. Next thing theyll be trying to track music sales receipts to find the culprit whos buying the music and sharing it first.:rolleyes:

[ErnieK]

Pave
You might not be far of the mark with that last statement.

I would not be surprised if in the near future there is a digital number on each disk (Music and Data) and this will be tracable through retail outlets and then by checking with credit card payments.

All items will have to be registered and if the two addresses (purchase and registration) addresses don't match then look out. The vast majority od CD's are purchased using some form credit card.

[Abbadon]

ErnieK,

what you say might very well come to pass but remember: the same people who make these kind of safety-measures at work go home in the weekends and find ways around them (well, of course not all of them, but at least some). And even if they didn't it wouldn't take long for some wizzkid to crack, hack or otherwise get around it. Then he goes to one lan party and a thousand people have it. Then all those go to another lan and 1000² have it. DVD's used to be perfectly copy-proof when they first appeared, and see how long that has lasted...

I fear that, to realy block all forms of music piracy, a lot of the online freedom is going to disappear, even unto your ofline freedom, where the content of your machine is monitored. Not having an internet connection would put you safe, but really...:rolleyes:

I not pro stealing form artists or software companies, but I'm even less pro stealing from me. 20€ for a cd? I think not...

Abbadon

[Jameson69]

has anyone heard of any sorta of RIAA in Canada? I live in Canada, and though the chances aren't too big of being caught I would just like to know if there is any agency in Canada trying to put a stop to file sharing. Anybody know? Thanks

[Mitch Hatfield]

Hold on a minute up there in Canada.

What about the Canadian Recording Associates Panel, otherwise known as....;) ;)

[killercow]

I'd vote for you:p :D . Wait depending on the benefits of voting for you comes with... like DOWNLOADING.

Pave..... never thought of that. Can the RIAA find a way to track that? I'm guessing no way uunless they break some law.

Please, I agree getting a 12-year-old I'll bet Cary Sherman
doesn't have any shame, setoguro.

Want I want to say about all the people who work for the RIAA's suepona filing program to stop file swappers:

"Insert Every Negative Comment you can think of here"
I know it's illegal and stuff but going after gradee schoolers is just wrong.

I'll bet in court someone would say back to me about that, that their parents should monitor what their kids do.

[Budfred]

ErnieK,

Now you went and done it, you told them how to set up the next assault on privacy....:eek: :D Oh well, they probably would have thought of it anyway....:rolleyes:

Oh, thank for the offer to vote for me, but I haven't actually filed yet, I am too busy running for Governor of California!!!:D :D :D

[pave_spectre]

Maybe theyll try adding some 'phone-home' software on CDs so anyone trying to copy will have their details sent out via an internet connection. Not likely to work with such firewalls like zonealarm and sygate but hey its one more pointless dead end they can try.

As an aside I think its interesting to note that while in America they are going after people illegally swapping files they dont own, in Australia it is technically illegal to make copies of music that has been legitimately purchased.
Unlike other countries Australian copyright law has no 'Fair Use' clause that would legally permit the transfer of legitimate CDs to compressed formats for use on portable music devices.
Which means theoretically anyone here caught using an MP3 player without permission of the copyright holders of whatever theyre listening to could be sued by ARIA (Our lame version of RIAA).

[Steve]

Just an update on the scum suckers at the RIAA sueing the little girl. The nice guy who runs HYPOTHERMIA (http://www.hypothermia.us/) held a raffle for a computer he built and got the $2000 to pay the settlement so that the little girls single mom doesn't have to worry.

There's plenty of nice people in this world. And then there's the RIAA...

[Budfred]

I heard on the radio this morning that a DJ and someone else have offered to pay the $2Gs and one of the legal online music services has offered to let her download $2000 worth of music for free....

[HewittC4]

A news story last night stated that KAZAA is suing the RIAA for illegal use of their software. I don't know any other details yet.

[Sylvander]

I'm in two minds!

File swapping makes it possible to obtain music which might otherwise be unobtainable.

By making it easy to widely distribute music, some of which is obscure, it can help preserve music which might otherwise be lost forever.

On the other hand.

My son is trying right now to make a living as a musician.

See their website here http://www.redbeesociety.co.uk/ and download or stream their part songs.
They will, in the next few days, be making available for sale online at this site their first two song CD, written, performed, recorded, produced, manufactured and sold by themselves.
In the next few months they will have completed their first full CD.
I have CD's made by them in the past, for friends, family and fans at gigs, with some pretty good songs on them, but this is going to have to stand comparison with commercial efforts.

So how can they make a living at this if the first few people to buy their music put it up for file sharing?
Who will bother to pay for it when they can get it just as easy or easier for free?
So their musical endeavours are killed by lack of funding!

[Steve]

"File swapping makes it possible to obtain music which might otherwise be unobtainable"

Indeed, it does.

"By making it easy to widely distribute music, some of which is obscure, it can help preserve music which might otherwise be lost forever."

Yes it can.

"My son is trying right now to make a living as a musician."

A worthwhile endeavor indeed!

"So how can they make a living at this if the first few people to buy their music put it up for file sharing?"

By playing music.

Musicians make their money by playing music. Trying to sell mp3s to the masses is like trying to sell ice to eskimoes. It just doesn't work. But if he gets his music out on the internet, and enough people hear it and like it, when he comes through town PLAYING his music, folks will come out and pay to hear him. He will be earning his living as a musician.

If he wants to be a record company executive, have him contact the RIAA. They might be looking for a few good men...

:rolleyes:

[HewittC4]

Sylv,

I agree that the recording industry has the right to protect their profits, but I think that they are going about this all wrong. They have absolutely no idea what customer service means. You do not accuse your customers of being criminals, then expect them to give you their money.

Instead of suing the 12 yo girl, why not approach her and explain to her why sharing music is wrong?

Or they can look at why people are sharing music. There are a lot of reasons. There is the ability to find music that isn't available any more. There is the fact that people only want one song, and are not willing to spend $18.00 for one song. There are people that are just thieves that won't spend any money if they can get it for free.

My solution:
There was a music store in LA back in the '80s that tried that with cassettes. I loved it. They had a limited number of songs, and they were only the big hits at the time, but it was a great service. I got a tape that didn't have any "crap" on it. The record industry and the musicians didn't get ripped off. If the songs were a reasonable price, then this would significantly reduce the number of music downloaders, mostly those who are willing to steal music because they don't want to pay for the product will do it (I believe, I could be wrong).(sorry, I cut and pasted this from another message board discussing the same issue).

With the advances in technology, they can store almost every song ever recorded on a large hard disk. They can burn a CD for you, and even include liner notes in digital form. They can get their money, the customers would be happy, and the musicians would get what little money the recording industry is willing to share with them.

This would be a win-win situation, but the RIAA is too stubborn or too stupid to follow through with it.

I oppose the RIAA's actions because it is simply rude, bad business. The file sharers are in the wrong, but that doesn't excuse bad business.

Good luck with your son's band. I hope they are successful.

[Sylvander]

When they play a local gig
[Their next is on 4th October at "The Venue" in Edinburgh, Scotland, so be there!]
They can only reach those local people within travelling distance.
With their music available on the web, their audience & their marketplace is THE WORLD!

Are you aware of the economics of the situation?
This guy has an honours degree in physics.
Another member has a degree in English.
He could earn [was previously earning] a certain level of pay and could afford a certain standard of living.
Neither he nor the rest of the band are masochists!
They have no desire to go without all those things that everyone desires and expects.
They want to earn a decent living doing what they are good at.
And they don't just PLAY music.
The major proportion of their time is spent CREATING NEW MUSIC.
They don't normally do ANY covers.
They [almost always] only do their own, unique, original songs.
[The few covers I heard them do sounded FANTASTIC!]
If no one buys the recorded material there will be no point in recording anything.
They would only play live gigs and only a small number of people would have the opportunity to benefit.
That's not a strategy I'd recommend to all those recording artists out there.
Only the tiny minority of superstars could make that pay, if they could?
Selling recordings of musical performances is a well-established economic activity.
It’s an economically sensible way to reach the widest possible audience.
Then when you come to town and the local people see an advertisement for the gig they know the band, they have the CD, regularly play the CD, like their music, so they decide to buy a ticket and hear the band live.
A few local people do it the other way round; they see the band live, like them and decide to buy the CD; but that is a recipe for economic failure.

So did anyone listen to their music?
What do you think?

[Steve]

I certainly don't want to be discouraging toward your sons aspirations. Being a musician myself, I know how hard the business can be. I wish him luck.

Throughout history, musicians have made their money through performances. Very few have made money from recording. Not that it's impossible, just very rare. The recording industry has been around for less than 100 years, but musicians have been practicing their trade for thousands of years.

One of the hardest parts of being a musician is the constant travel. Many successful musicians are on the road year round. Going from town to town, city to city is the life most lead. That is how their music gets heard. Very few get played on the radio. Very few make money recording.

One change that I have seen in the past five years or so is the practice of selling CDs at their shows. People hear the music, like it and buy a CD. It doesn't support the artist, but it helps. That's why getting your music heard is of utmost importance. Few will pay for a CD of a band they have never heard. That's the benifit to the artist of having your music traded on the internet. People hear you and then go to see you when you play nearby and if they enjoy the show, buy a CD on the way out.

Even the few who have become successful at the recording business have spent years on the road playing gigs before they became recording artists.

Tell your son I said "Good luck". And if I'm anywhere near Edinburgh on the forth I'll stop in...;)

[galaxyhunter]

Howdy to all,

I would like to throw my "2 cents" into the fray!

How many CDs has everyone bought that they liked all of the tracks? I can't remember the last one. Point is, most people want to make their own mix of music. Ok, so do we rip a CD or download what we want? I for one like to find older music. I have gone to music stores to order stuff and have been told often that the album is out of print and cannot order it, (or too lazy too order it). So I go to Bearshare and find just what I was looking for. It is the record company's fault for not making the music available. I firmly believe that most of the music downloaded by us "older" users is music currently unavailable.

As for going after people for "sharing" music, it is nothing more than "Gestapo" tactics used to scare us. I say to the record industry,

UP YOURS!!!!

Provide a good product at a reasonable price, and sales will go back up.
Technology has changed but "they" have not. Now they are mad because they had no foresight to see this new trend coming.

It is time to get with the program! Hey guys quite P^%^ing and moaning and get off the pot. I don't think music sharing will ever stop. I don't care about CD jackets, and cases or videos on my music CDs. Let us pick what we want instead of some "suits" trying to feed us crap.

And that as they say it that!

[Abbadon]

Something that is also "that" is that on this forum, people generaly mind their language a bit better.

[galaxyhunter]

Humble apologies!

[pentachris]

Bearshare is spyware, as acknowledged by the company's chief technical officer in this article (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-257592.html).

[Sylvander]

I found your use of language quite entertaining:D
Though I would have preferred it to be less earthy.

But what is more to the point, you put forward a logical and well presented argument.

The other side of the argument is that this is, purely and simply, theft.

My son's band seen here
http://www.redbeesociety.co.uk/
is offering their first 2 track CD for sale here
http://www.simbiotic.info/redbeesociety/
A full CD is expected soon.

I'm trying to get him to make individual tracks available for download at a cost per track.
Do you think you [and others] would be prepared to pay to download original music MP3's?
And if so how much per track?
If the band doesn't make money out of making music they will eventually be forced to give it up.

Here
http://www.redbeesociety.co.uk/downloads.asp
You can stream or save to disk some typical partial tracks.

The track "Two Cops" was played on air, UK wide, for the first time yesterday 22nd October on BBC Radio 1 at 1.45 p.m. on the "Mark & Lard" show.

[John0904]

The mother said she signed up for KaZaA, paying a $29.95 fee. "If you're paying for it, you're not stealing it, so what is this all about?" she asked.

Not only they were scammed out of $29.95, they are being sued for songs like, "If You're Happy and You Know It."

Only in America.

[galaxyhunter]

I am curious as to how much the musician actually gets from CD sales. From what I understand, it is not much as the record companies and managment take most of it. How can AOL carpet bomb the world with their free CDs and stay in business? If AOL can do this than it seems as though music CDs should be a bit cheaper.

I agree about the recent music releases being theft. I know of high school kids who download, burn and sell CDs at school. This is theft for sure. I do not like this at all. I guess it comes to an issue of what your moral code is.

I don't listen to radio anymore because of the quality of music these days. I am getting older I suppose. This leaves me with my CD collection. I do subscribe to a legal download service, which I enjoy very much and have found much of what I want there. I have and still buy CDs from artists on MP3.com. Some of the best music can be found here. I have no regrets about spending money here.

As for you son's band, sure I would buy direct from a band if I like the music. I have bought many CDs this way. On Mp3.com when you buy a CD you have the luxury of downloading the entire album or just the tracks you want. And the cost of the CDs average around $8.00. Not a bad deal at all. You don't pay for stuff you don't want. Unfortunately, alot of musicians will never get air time because of recording companies and managment. It is all about money. I don't feel sorry a bit for record companies, they created this mess and they shot themselves in the foot.

I wish your son's band luck and I will go the site and check them out.

Regards

[Sylvander]

Here are my impressions:

Let’s say the record company gives a band £150,000 of an advance [a loan] for 1 year.
That’s £20,000 per band member per year = £100,000
And £50,000 for studio costs for the year
And they turn out one good CD full of new, musically and commercially exciting music.
And to promote themselves and the CD they play gigs, do interviews etc.
When the CD goes on sale the band makes nothing from it until the record company gets its advance back.
My son says it cost him about £1 to physically make each CD disk.
The cost of the physical disk is quite small.
[That means they would need to sell 10,000 CD’s at £16 each just to break even.]
But that disk with no content is of no use to anyone.
It’s what goes into creating music, that has never before existed, that takes the time, effort, and unique skill.
It has to have that special something that’s different from the rest.
If they fail [and most do] the record will not sell enough CD’s to recover their speculative investment.
The record company writes off the dept and perhaps a potentially great new band disappears into oblivion.
It’s a gamble, and as in gambling, most times they lose.
Every now and again they back a winner.
That’s when they recover their costs.
There are famous artists who consistently sell and make profit.
The record companies make money on them.
But if they don’t invest in risky new talent, the business will go stale; people will lose interest and sales will eventually drop.

On my advice and urging, my son has decided to do all the necessary work of producing, promoting and selling of CD's himself.
If this gamble pays off the record companies will be cut out and he and the rest of the band will become competition for them.
The RC's will probably try to entice them onto their books [if they are looking like winners], but by that time the band may not need them.
The band's gain would be their loss.

[galaxyhunter]

And so it appears that the band does not make anything until perhaps thousands or more are sold. I have heard stories of bands being cleaned out by RCs. As you said if the RCs don't take chances on risky new talent than you have what we now have, stale music. Let's face it some of those bands still going (insert band name here)need to hang it up. The industry is trying to milk all they can from them. I have a favorite band from Canada that really needs to move on. I love their older music but in order to stay marketable they have to cater to the mainstream public, which would not know good music if it bit them. Unfortunately bands and RCs try to foist off sub-standard material to make the public happy.

I stopped by the site and sampled the tracks. Muscically it is well done, though not quite my taste of music, I wish them luck and hope they can make a go of it for themselves. If your son makes it, so much the better for him. The band deserve the rewards of their art not the record companies.

Finally, my conscience tells me to buy the music when possible, otherwise use what resources are avaiable. If your son's band perhaps uses MP3.com for instance, they can get the music out there for people to hear.

But for heavens sake don't crucify kids for downloading songs for their own use.

[Sylvander]

Those particular tracks are interesting, good quality, well produced, but rather slow.
They lack excitement in my opinion.
They have produced other tracks that I much prefer.
I have on my PC a collection of excellent, as yet unreleased, music.
Some are experiments.
I was particularly impressed with one done by the bass guitarist.
They have a tendency to produce music that sounds like film score material.
Their typical song starts with an introduction; proceeds at a gentle pace, then gradually builds.
I’ve suggested they do a new song that begins with an explosive crash to grab the listeners attention, then take off at a thundering pace, but not just gallop along from start to finish.
I also hate songs that plod along in boring repetition.
Structure is extremely important it seems to me.

They have a problem with sound balance.
In the clubs, they usually have their own sound mixing desk and their own “soundman”.
I don’t know where they get these people!
They usually set the volume so high my brain starts to vibrate.
The individual instruments are lost in the “mush”.
I couldn’t hear the cellist, the lyrics, the guitar solo & most of the drum kit.
I’m advising that they get their own soundman who will ensure that the balance is as they require it.

When a band is at the bottom, the only way is up and they can afford to take risks.
That’s the exciting time.
When it becomes successful, everyone is relying upon them and it takes unusual courage to continue to experiment.

I find music sharing an exciting development.
Hopefully it can be developed in such a way that the access is still there but no one is being cheated.

[Budfred]

Record companies steal from artists, but generally do pay them something for their work... a debatable, but probably true point...

People steal from record companies... a debated, but irrefutable fact...

Thus people steal from artists and justify this by saying that record companies steal from artists... Something about this logic just doesn't work for me.......:(

[galaxyhunter]

Budfred,

This is the reason the bands themselves should be able to market their music themselves in a forum beneficial to them and the public. I would gladly buy direct from them and have done so many times in the past.

I see your point though! Perhaps it is a Catch 22 situation. There is no easy solution.

Kind Regards

[Budfred]

The bands can market directly to the public, much as Sylvander's son is doing. Unfortunately, one thing that the recording companies do provide it massive public exposure and it is hard to get that without them. The internet certainly allows more grassroots efforts to expose and market, but it still isn't as pervasive as TV and radio. Meanwhile, people all over the world are blithely trying to rationalize stealing from the artists by saying the recording companies are stealing from the artists. At least the recording companies give them something.......

[Sylvander]

Cast your mind back to a time when big companies did not exist.
Individuals made a little extra of what they were good at and sold it to their neighbours.
Typical examples would be beer, whisky, baked goods, woven cloth and tailored clothing.
Then the economists said “Specialisation is the source of all wealth” and there began the creation of bigger, and bigger, organisations.
They made whiskey and beer making illegal and the big manufacturers had the field to themselves.
This is quite apart from the concentration of land ownership into fewer and fewer hands.
The concentration began with land and the populace was pushed out of the countryside and into those zones commonly called cities.
You cannot live without food, and since those in the cities have been cut off from direct access to sources of food they must find some way to induce those who control the source of food to feed them. So they began making goods and services for them.
And then the concentration of the ownership of property in the cities began.
And finally the concentration of ownership of the means of production.
Very few people get to make money from selling goods and services without going through some big company who sits between the producer and the consumer.
The record companies are one of these.
You could be a brilliant musician, but if the RC’s do not select you then your chances of making a living are remote.
This is a very effective means of [political/social/religious] CONTROL.
Remember the brilliant filmmakers who were accused of having the wrong kind of [political] beliefs, were blacklisted and couldn’t work in their homeland.
You can only do that if there is little or no opportunity to earn a living except through a controlling body.

The Internet has [perhaps only temporarily] broken that stranglehold.

[jeeza]

Originally posted by galaxyhunter
As for going after people for "sharing" music, it is nothing more than "Gestapo" tactics used to scare us.
Didn't I read a news article on the internet a few months ago that said that the RIAA did not intend to go after everyone sharing files with p2p, but only after the big fish, those that do so on a grand scale and whose lists of shared files contains many Gigabytes ?
Why does no one mention this ?