Big Brother?

[Steve]

Today, I heard an inteview with the superintendent of the Biloxi Mississippi school district. Over the past three years they have installed surveillance cameras in all their schools. Eight hundred classrooms. The gym. All the hallways, stairways. The only spots that are free of cameras are the bathrooms, showers and the principals office.

He justified this on the grounds of security. There was a case where a girl took off her rings and left them on her desk before going out for an assembly. When she returned, the rings were gone. All they had to do was review the tapes and the perpetrator was identified. The parents and the police were called. Success.

After all, any abusive behavior can be seen. Any cheating can be caught. Any terrorists can be identified. And anyway, if you're not doing anything wrong, how could you object to this?

Does anyone else have a problem with all this? It really gives me the creeps.

[FrankSG]

I have no problem with it at all. Maybe a few years ago I would have. But, the way things are going in our society these days, it seems that it is necessary to do this in order to protect us from those who would harm us. It's too bad that this is necessary. But, it's the way things are.

[pave_spectre]

At the college where Im studying IT there are no cameras, and within the last two weeks two 20gig hard drives and removable drive trays have gone missing from the IT classroom.

Currently most of the diploma level IT students including myself are in favour of installing cameras in the room and have indicated that preference to the staff who asked about ideas for preventing further theft.

So to answer your question I have absolutely no problem with this, since nobododies privacy is being violated, and they can hardly be considered intrusive.

[bassman]

Well FrankSG, the idea that things are any worse in today’s society compared to yesterdays is part of what makes this wrong. To the best of my knowledge, there is no factual evidence that acts of crime per capita are any higher now then 20 years ago, or any more violent.
What makes us feel this way is the fact that the media has a much broader faster means to spread the news and more of a need to over-glorify it. Couple that with the idea that the government now has less control over what they publish (or are they loosening their grip in an effort to lull us into believing we need big brother) and you get a society that demands we be watched over like helpless sheep. I'm not sure I can distinguish between the dog and the wolf any more.
Lets take the "Patriot Act" for example. It was implemented to keep an eye out for terrorists. It was designed to keep an eye on everyone. The Fed just announced they would use this Gestapo tactic to track drug dealers, child pornographers, gang leaders, and whomever else they see fit. HEY, WAIT A MINUTE, I want to see the rest of the list. It sounded wonderful right up till that last one. I have to wonder if my name is on a list somewhere because of something stupid in my past.:confused:
This is the new Big Brother. This is the new government with a new pair of eyes, watching what we have for lunch and where we have it.
Another aspect to what Steve started this with is, with the kind of surveillance system they are implementing, all the feeds go into some level of network and are monitored by someone. It wouldn’t take much to hack into a system like this leaving a wide-open window for all manor of deviate to look in on our children. I’m real glad that girl got her rings back but will it be worth it when some freak stalks her invisibly throughout the entire school (less bathrooms and showers thank god).

There are Pros and Cons to everything. Both sides on this one need to be weighed more carefully before we just accept it.


Just in case I wasn't clear Steve, yes this gives me the creeps too;)

[gracious]

I agree that perhaps 10 years ago I would have objected but seeing how our kids are out of control, I think it is a good idea. Kids have to learn that there are consequences to their actions and that their actions do affect others. Look at all the stuff you hear about our teens these days. Out of control, violence...BUT....I also think that we as adults are partly to blame. We allow these things to happen by not taking a stand and allowing our society to go down the toilet. No morals, no consequences, do whatever you want mentality has to stop.

[Budfred]

I agree, with both sides of the argument...

I feel uneasy about monitoring kids everywhere they go in school and I can see the argument that it may help with a number of things.

As bassman said, kids today are not really any worse than at any other time in history, the are simply much more exposed in the media, so it seems like things are going on all the time. If you look at published comments by adults on kids going back to the first available material from hundreds of years ago, they are lamenting how bad kids are today and how the human race is doomed.

How many of you heard about the shootings here in Minnesota about a week ago??? Probably almost everyone in the US and maybe some international members too. Even 50 years ago that wouldn't have been true. Any newsworthy event like this that happens anywhere is going to get media play, so it makes it seem like these things are going on all the time. Truth is that they have always happened, but they were only known in a limited area so it didn't seem like a trend everytime one happened. I personally think kids today often grow up with too strong a sense of entitlement, but give me about 10 minutes and I can find a kid that doesn't neatly fit that description either. I see more parents today blithely violating the law, so I expect kids to follow that example.

Where I would like to see cameras is at traffic lights and stop signs. It think traffic has gotten wildly out of control and this would be a way to reverse that trend. Putting it is schools mainly because we see kids as having no rights doesn't seem safe or fair to me....

[Steve]

I'm with Bassman and Budfred. I don't think kids are any worse now than in years and generations past. I'm glad that the girl got her rings back but she should have known better than to leave them where they could be stolen. She could have put them in her pocket, in her book bag or even ask the teacher to put them in her desk draw.

One of the things that really fries my bacon is that there are cameras everywhere except the principals office. Why not? If everyone else is being checked on, I want to see the principal checked on too!

Another thing is the cost. Can you imagine what 800 cameras, running cable, video recording machines and the people to monitor them costs? In one of the bowling centers I used to work in, the owner was loosing money from the registers. He spent ten thousand dollars having three cameras and video recording machines set up to monitor three cash registers! It will be a long time before there is any return on that investment. What the heck has been going on in Biloxi that would warrant this and how much crime has been solved by this outlay of tax payers money?

I don't like this trend at all. If there are cameras in the schools, why not the work place? If Budfred gets his cameras at the traffic lights, why not along the road, too? If you can be monitored from the time you leave your driveway until the time you get home, why not inside your house, too. After all, if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem....

It gives me the creeps...

[Mitch Hatfield]

You want see surveillance cameras?

Then come to Britain where we have tens of thousands of surveillance cameras.

No town or city center would feel complete without them - and they are now commonplace in virtually every public location..

a popular place to see them is at soccer stadiums, where they are used to some effect to stop rival fans killing each other!

On the roads, they're everywhere, often at traffic lights and other junctions. All the traffic cops carry one - no guns, just videocams!

According to media reports, the police find them helpful in identifying criminals, robbing banks and the like.

We even have little TV cameos called "Crimestoppers", where surveillance camera footage is shown in an attempt to get the public rather than the police to identify those filmed in criminal acts.

[bassman]

Gracious, I have read a number of your posts in the past and I find you to be an intelligent and reasonable person. I do not know much about you but have assumed (I know, bad word) you have children. I have to wonder if you really believe that the threat of “Surveillance” is an effective deterrent especially with children. We all know what the punishment can be for our actions but many don’t care. Would one more instrument of identification really make a difference? What if the person who took these rings was being threatened with great physical harm to take them. If we don’t find that on the tapes then it becomes a circumstance of lack of evidence by the accused because tapes don’t lie and we have no reason to look any further.

Budfred, Here in California the traffic cameras are sprouting like poppies. I swear I see new cameras on street lights and along the highway every day. HOW MUCH IS THAT COSTING THIS BANKRUPT STATE???

Steve, I fear that the surveillance industry is becoming a rip-off industry. Your boss will probably never recover that investment. Take a look at the X10 cameras site (not an advertisement from me) and realize how much coverage a person could have for under $500.00.

Bottom line here folks is not only the cost in dollars, but the cost in freedom. The dollars spent on cameras for a school could be much better spent on education. Lets teach our children (and parents) the 5 R’s. 3 is no longer enough. Readin, Ritin, Rithmatic, Right from Rong.
Don’t be fooled into thinking they are protecting you, the good and innocent, from the bad guys with this. They are watching anyone they can and will find a reason to come after you if they are board enough.

OK, off the box Frank
:rolleyes:

[Budfred]

I need to clarify what I am talking about with cameras at traffic lights and stop signs. We already have cameras on the highways here, but they are used to monitor traffic, not to enforce the law. With that said, people here rarely drive the speed limit and when I walk my dogs I have to constantly watch for people cruising down residential streets at 50 MPH in a 30 MPH zone. I really fear for the children in the neighborhood and marvel that none have died yet.

However, what I am talking about are cameras that are triggered by the light changing at a traffic stop and that then take a picture of the person running the red light. They are then sent a ticket in the mail. People here typically seem to figure that the light can be red a couple of seconds before you really have to think about stopping. As a pedestrian or at the head of the traffic with the green light, you take a risk when you proceed. Right turn on red after stop is now an excuse for right turn without a stop.

Stop signs get a similar level of disrespect. Actually stopping for a stop sign is risking having someone run into you car's back end. I am not sure how the cameras would be set up for this, but it seems like the only way people are going to stop running them.

In terms of financing: when this type of system is first introduced I suspect it pays for install costs very quickly. People who are used to running lights and stops with impunity will not stop until they get a few tickets and that will cover costs. Maintenance will still be required, but I suspect there will still be enough people in a hurry to cover those costs as well.

One final unrelated point: To add "right from rong" to school curriculums has 2 problems right off the bat. One is that most kids are going to have basic values in place by the time they are 5 years old. Two is that your idea of right and wrong may be quite different from mine. It will take so long to debate what should be taught that the children of today will have to continue the debate regarding their own children and keep passing it down the generations....:eek:

[gracious]

Bassman, those were such nice things to say, thank you!

Ok, here is why I think it would help to have cameras in the classroom, first the bullying. 16% of kids have said that they were and are being seriously bullied in school and the numbers are growing, which as you know can have serious consequences to any childhood, ie, Columbine High School. Teachers would have documented proof of the disruptive students and it would put an end to the He Said-She Said. The empowerment teachers have today is next to nothing, nothing like the power teachers had when I went to school, oh boy! Lets face it, alot of the kids are already dysfunctional before they even get to school because of neglectful parents, their environment and maybe having cameras in place will help teachers get these troubled kids early enough to make a difference in their lives. Kids are carrying guns, knives to school. Did you hear about the football hazing that went on in Mepham High School in Long Island where upper classman sexually abused younger players as part of their hazing and the D.A. can't get anybody in that town to talk because they are all afraid of these football players. I mean these aren't isolated incidences, it is a growing problem with our youth. Teen fight clubs are popping up everywhere, so no, I do not adhere to the notion that kids aren't any different than they were 10 or 20 years ago, because I think that they are. I do agree that the media has sensationalized some of the stories, but on the whole, it is getting bad. I fear for my babies because they are in the thick of it and the stories that they tell me of what they see and hear everyday makes me want to lock them up at home where I can watch them constantly.

[Mark Miller]

Cameras everywhere is Big Brother, no doubt about it.
The question is whether you except this as part of what society is today.
I think some of this will come down to who is on the other side of the cameras and how much power they actually have.
Traffic lights are one thing but this will lead to cameras in all public places and probably eventually into your home.
There is something wrong with this and it makes me feel very uneasy.
We are losing our freedoms slowly but surely and this is becoming so 1984 except so far without the poverty. The endless wars, the allegiance to leaders right or wrong, accepting what we see on t.v. or read in newspapers [that are also being controlled by fewer and fewer companies] as the Gospel.
You'll see it will come to the internet and discussions like these won't happen because of the fear of Big Brother.
I am really getting scared:(
Mark

[Budfred]

It is true that there is a very aggressive move going on to curtail privacy and personal freedoms, but I don't think it will get to the point where anyone suggests putting cameras in people's homes. If nothing else, the resources required to do it would be incredible. Poverty is increasing and the government is going deeper into debt each day. I am really hopeful that the Ashcroft crowd will be stopped before they declare martial law and actually proceed with the scenario you portray.....

[Steve]

If nothing else, the resources required to do it would be incredible.

All it would take is a couple of web cams and an always on connection. It wont happen for a while but it could get there. They'll justify it just like they did in Biloxi. It will stop crime, abuse of children, terrorists, they'll throw in drug dealers and spouse abuse for good measure. And after all, if you have nothing to hide...

Hopefully it will never get there. But they're heading in the direction. Ten years ago nobody thought there would be cameras in every classroom, hallway and stairwell.

[Mark Miller]

We are so close to all of this coming true. I was a big Bush supporter and really thought that the war in Iraq was the right move, ya know what, they lied to us. The left had it right it was and always will be about oil and getting around opec. This being the case, how can we let these people become more involved with our private lives through cameras and Reading e-mails and listening into our phone calls.
Look I am a true believer in the US of A but this is really going to far
Budfred, with the state of technology today, you would not know if there was a camera in your house already. Scary huh?
Mark

[FrankSG]

kids today are not really any worse than at any other time in history, the are simply much more exposed in the media, I agree that they are more exposed in the media. We therefore are more aware of what is going on--we hear of things happening that we never would have known about some years ago. But I do not agree with the statement that they are not really any worse than at any other time in history. I was a Freshman in high school 58 years ago. I know how things were then. I know how things are now--I can see what's going on. I am totally convinced that things are *much* different.
Now let me make my self clear so that you don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that we have a bunch of bad kids out there. We have a lot of good young people in our schools--and the majority of them are good decent kids. I have a lot of respect for them. But, let's be realistic--we have some real bad apples out there. I'm not saying that we didn't have the bad apples 58 years ago when I was in school because we did. But it was different. We didn't have as many and for the most part they were not as violent as some of them are now. You've got to remember that in those days, we didn't have the drug problem to the degree that we have now. These drugs make some people do some pretty weird things. I understand your feelings about feeling uneasy when it comes to monitoring our kids. Quite honestly, I feel uneasy about it myself. But if it will help the situation, then I am in favor of it.
One other thing I want to mention: I am not suggesting that in our schools we go back to the way it was 58 years ago. I think that some of the teachers back then--not all--but some of them were much too harsh. I certainly don't want to go back to that. But as they say, "Let's not through out the baby with the bath water."

[Budfred]

Steve and Mark Miller,

"All it would take is a couple of web cams and an always on connection".

Assuming for a minute that this were true (most houses have more than one or two rooms), if you then multiply these webcams by the US population, you need about 600million of these webcams and people to monitor them would have to be in the millions as well.... It would certainly end the unemployment problem..... My point is that it is just too much to monitor. And I understand that the government or anyone else could put a camera in my home without my knowledge, my point is that they wouldn't bother to go to the expense without a really good reason. If you show up on their radar, yes, you may be watched. And I agree the criteria for who is a threat seems to be expanding rapidly. Even so, watching everyone who voted for someone other than the usurper pres would still require more money and resources than the government currently (or will ever) has available.

The stuff going on with Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the shrub scare me too, but a little realism helps to reduce the fear....

[Steve]

Hehe...I don't REALLY think we will see cameras in the home in any of our lifetimes. Although I don't think it is because of cost. The 87 billion dollars we spend in Iraq next year would cover it, no problem. But as the case in Biloxi shows, we are going to be monitored more and more, as time goes on. It's a bad trend.

Frank. I'm glad you feel uneasy about monitoring the entire school system. That was my point. It was a short inteview and the girl and her rings was the only example he gave of the system working. No abuse stopped. No terrorists found. Just some petty theft resolved. Is it really worth it?

We are slowly/quickly loosing our freedom. All in the name of security. I'd like to have both freedom and security. But if I have to choose one or the other, I'd choose freedom.

[bassman]

Budfred, I agree completely with you that the cost alone to purchase and install cameras throughout homes around the nation would be enough to prevent this from ever happening. It is truly unrealistic. I by no means am saying you took us off track (or that we are off track) but this thread began as a discussion about public cameras and I think that is where our concern needs to be. These cameras are certainly in place and increasing every day. I think Mitch has already attested to this.
But just to let you know that the personal camera is not an impossibility, take a look at THIS (http://soback.kornet21.net/~maui12ro/hacked1.jpg) and THIS (http://soback.kornet21.net/~maui12ro/dork2.jpg). This kid was hacked as a prank. The hacker had enough control of his comp to leave him this message and take a snapshot of him. Can this be done without our knowledge? How many personal cameras are already in place with an “Always on” connection?
Another concern is that with the advances in wireless technology, people living or parking within 1000 feet of an access point can access the network that the cameras are connected to. Yes of course there will be safeguards and security in place (won’t there???) but as we all know, this can be bypassed.

Big brother has been a concern for some 60 years or more. Every year the discussions come up and every year the infiltration gets deeper. What can we do? Does anyone here have some info on who we contact? How do we start stopping this? Do we believe we can stop this?
My biggest fear is that some day we will have government mandated cameras in our personal lives, that we will have designated numbers that everything in out lives will be billed and credited to (store club cards, credit cards) simply because we could not stand up and defend ourselves against this intrusion. BHAAAAA

FrankSG, again, the idea that things are worse now then 58 years ago is an illusion. Per Capita is a key factor in any comparative survey. We must compare the outcome of the test to the number of test subjects. Facts show that crime is actually down since the 50’s. When I can find my source on this, I will post the link.
If I am not mistaken, alcohol is and always has been considered a drug. This drug is responsible for more crimes, violence, divorces, auto accidents, unemployment, mental disability, and deaths then all other drugs combined. Just a thought.

Am I off track yet??:D

[Budfred]

bassman,

One quick point.... One other drug does come close to alcohol in lethality... Nicotine in tobacco form....:( :mad:

[bassman]

Thanks Budfred, almost forgot that one:eek: Don't know how though, it controls my daily life:(

[FrankSG]

I'm going back to that thread about the blond/blonde jokes. :)

[gracious]

Ok, although I had stated previously that I am in favor of cameras being placed in the classroom, hallways...this definitely is crossing the line big time. This is dispicable!


http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/07/35666846.shtml

[FrankSG]

this definitely is crossing the line big time. I certainly agree with that. That's the problem--whatever we do--someone has to abuse it. That someone should go to jail on this one.

[mjc]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."---- Benjamin Franklin

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."….. James Madison

[FrankSG]

"The greatest blessing of our democracy is freedom. But in the last analysis, our only freedom is the freedom to discipline ourselves."
~Bernard M. Baruch~

[gracious]

The scariest thing for me was the fact that these pictures were downloaded onto the schools HDD and the pictures were accessed off this HDD via the internet 98 times between July 2002 and January 2003, during the early mornings and late evenings and they don't have a clue who was looking and doing what with these pictures. I think I would pack up my family and move!

[Steve]

Yeh. But...but...if it saves even one child from being bullied...if it stops even one terrorist...wouldn't it be better to give up your freedom???

I think the idiots responsible for the decision to put those cameras in the locker room should be identified and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and then a civil suit should be filed against the town for as much monetary damage as can be won. Hopefully the people will think twice about who they elect after that.

IMHO...of course.

[mjc]

No....they should be given the exact same tour of the local facilities any other child molester is given, including the introduction to Bubba....and then they should be placed on display in the town square, in stocks and pillories with a ready supply of rotting vegetables at hand.

This is most likely not the first, and it most definitely will not be the last such case.

No, the ends DO NOT justify the means...

[Budfred]

Security cameras do not equal a loss of freedom. They may in some people's opinion, but that doesn't automatically mean they are. Cameras in a locker room or any other place that is private because of the behavior in those places (like changing clothes or using the bathroom), is a violation of privacy and it could readily be argued that this is a also a violation of freedom....

[jeeza]

Originally posted by FrankSG
I have no problem with it at all. Maybe a few years ago I would have. But, the way things are going in our society these days, it seems that it is necessary to do this in order to protect us from those who would harm us. It's too bad that this is necessary. But, it's the way things are.
So, in fact you don't like it either, I understand ; but you accept it as a necessary evil.

[jeeza]

Originally posted by pave_spectre
[B]At the college where Im studying IT there are no cameras, and within the last two weeks two 20gig hard drives and removable drive trays have gone missing from the IT classroom
In which city is this college located ?

[jeeza]

Originally posted by bassman

My biggest fear is that some day we will have government mandated cameras in our personal lives, that we will have designated numbers that everything in out lives will be billed and credited to (store club cards, credit cards) simply because we could not stand up and defend ourselves against this intrusion. BHAAAAA
You fear may be justified.
The direction Microsoft is taking goes the same way (Longhorn, Palladium...) and we shouldn't imagine that Microsoft is alone in this.
Big companies and governments can have a common ground of understasnding in this.