Next Democratic Presidential Candidate

[DwnMp3]

Just wondering what you guys want to win the primaries and if more that you want to be the next president. This even pertains to people not in the United States, because what the Unites States president does effects everyone.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/

I personally want Edwards for his economic ideas on more taxes to the rich and large companies to get free health care for all of us.

[classicsoftware]

Please don't let yawningdog see this..... We'll get into another of our friendly but long winded discussion on the various merits of one paritcular party or point of view......

[YODA74]

Edwards portrays himself as a friend of the farmer and workingman, even though his campaign has raised millions, with nearly two-thirds of his cash coming from attorneys. Greedy lawyers have devastated North Carolina. Tobacco farming was a way of life for rural North Carolinians, even before America’s founding; now it is largely a thing of the past. The resulting economic decline and staggering unemployment is fodder for Sen. Edwards claim that there are two Americas, one comprised of the wealthy (like Sen. Edwards) and the other of the poor. I wonder how many of the poor were once employed by the tobacco industry.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/cox/040126

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/cgi-bin/membervotes.cgi?member=NCSR&site=congressmerge

[Mark Miller]

Personally, I have seen no difference in over 40 years between the Dem's and the Republicans. The economy has gone up and down with both.
We have been at war with both [declared and undeclared].
Poor people for the most part are still poor.
Rich people are also still rich, I am going on the averages for the last 40 years.
The middle class has gone up and down.
I think that the country has become so big and change taking so long that it almost does not matter which party is in power.
I have seen a lot of political spin and very little changing, either for the bad or good.
Most of the change in this country is coming from the private sector, which IMHO is the way it should be.
Mark

[classicsoftware]

Well I hate to disagree with Dr. Mark, but wow. Forty years ago the largest number of poor people in this country were senior citizens. Now with the passage of Medicare, the number of poor seniors has fallen dramatically.

I think it does make a difference....What we need in this county is someone who can govern from the CENTER..

Yoda, there were some nice links for info on edwards. I guess he only won by 51% so that is somehow not really winning, so what about Bush. the winner is the winner is the winner period. I voted for Gore, but under our system of Government, GWB is the elected President of the USA, even if he won by a single electoral vote. That's the way we do it here.

If it weren't for the fact so many families would be hurt by shutting down the tobacco industry, I would shut it down in a heart beat,, but that is the proverbial horse of another color best left for a different thread.

[YODA74]

What we need in this county is someone who can govern from the CENTER..

What we need in this country is to get back to the basics and get it away from big buisness and the hi powered attorneys.Like a normal human not someone that was born with a silver spoon up there(*&^ and can't relate to the general public.

As far as bush don't really care much for the man but he has done a fine job.

And tobacco isn't the only thing Edwards has ruined here.. Heck he hasen't even paid his taxes from last year and thats pittiful for a man in his position.

The only viable candidate the Dems had they didn't want or at least the one that has his act together (Leberman) But I guess they don't want someone from the Jewish persuasion as president.

[Mark Miller]

Actually I was not just talking about poor seniors, but poor everyone in this country. And from personal experience with medicare [parents in laws] it has helped with doctors but not the cost of living or quality of life. The improvements have come from their own hard work and savings and yet many still cannot pay their medical need [drugs, nursing] with medicare. You must have less than 2000 total net worth for the government to step in.
Wait until you see what happens 15 years from now with the baby boomer's
Mark
By the way thanks for the title of Doctor.

[jabarnutcase]

Excuse me Doctor....But these political discussions always make me feel a little bit dizzy....Is there possibly something you could prescribe?

(BTW...Just for the record, I'm a registered Republican. (Hehe...you may have to prescribe medication for some of the others here after they read that). :p

[Mark Miller]

Hi Jab,
I think as people get older and have more to lose they become more conservative.
I'm like you also as I am also a registered Republican, but at one time, many many many years ago, in a galaxy far away I was a very liberal Dem.
mark:D

[jabarnutcase]

Hehe...I wasn't going to mention that part. But then the 60's were, as you said, like another Galaxy.....Far far away. :D

(Before someone gets the wrong idea, I ALWAYS supported our troops...Even back than. In fact, my very best friend was killed in Vietnam only two weeks after he arrived.
I tried to join but they wouldn't take me due to a serious case of Hepatitis at the time).

Then came the "lottery" and my number was so high I had second thoughts by then.
(Sorry folks....A little off topic here)

Carry on. ;)

[classicsoftware]

The only viable candidate the Dems had they didn't want or at least the one that has his act together (Leberman) But I guess they don't want someone from the Jewish persuasion as president.

I wish I could blame his loss on anti-semitism, but alas he was not charismatic enough in this age of television. I thought Lieberman was strong, intellient and honest and would have made a great president..

[Mark Miller]

Hi Classic,
I liked Mr. Lieberman also but alas I think because of the nature he has shown he would have been very much like Jimmy Carter [who at the time I liked also] Unfortunately compassionate people do not make the best Pres.
IMHO
Mark

[FrankSG]

I'm a Republican, but if I voted for a Democrat it would be Joe Lieberman. He seems to be an up-front sort of guy. I used to be a Democrat, but I changed some time ago. Actually I'm not a die-hard Republican. There are still a few things that I disagree with about the Republicans and there are some things that I agree with about the Democrats. But, all in all, I agree mostly with the Republicans. Having said that, when it comes voting time and if there were a Republican whom I believed would not be good for the country and the Democrat would be good for our country, I would certainly vote for the Democrat. Regardless of how I feel, I always say "May the best man win."
Well--I guess I should say, "May the best man OR woman win".

[yawningdog]

Please don't let yawningdog see this..... We'll get into another of our friendly but long winded discussion on the various merits of one paritcular party or point of view......
Too late, and I take exception to the long winded remark. I've always been a huge advocate and practitioner of brevity. Ask Kay.

Republicans and Democrats are the essentially the same with one exception. When the need arises, contemporary Republicans are able to make war. Contemporary Democrats are not.

[jeeza]

What do the people here think about John Kerry ?
He seems to make a good chance.
I don't know whether he is worth anything - just as I don't about the other candidates - but there seem to be some strange, irrational factors in his favor, like his initials "JFK"...that's what I gathered from a TV broadcast yesterday.

[YODA74]

We don't vote for people because of there initials.. Maybe this will give you an out look on Kerry as far as Nikita Dean the draft dodger he's gone

http://www.gopusa.com/barbarastock/2004/bs_0126.shtml

[jeeza]

Originally posted by YODA74
We don't vote for people because of there initials.. Maybe this will give you an out look on Kerry as far as Nikita Dean the draft dodger he's gone
I am sure you don't, but whom are you speaking for ?
BTW, the fact that it was mentioned in the TV broadcast seems to suggest otherwise.

[Abbadon]

Originally posted by YODA74
We don't vote for people because of there initials..

I don't know much about politics in the usa, but something like this can have an effect on voting behavior. Voting is about making a choice, and that choice can be influenced (on a subconsious level) by something like politicians having the same initials. It's like people who say they aren't influenced by commercials, but of course they are, even if it's only because they know the brand name trough ads.

Of course, the influence on voting will be very, very minor.

[YODA74]

I am sure you don't, but whom are you speaking for ?

I'm speaking for most intelligent people that usually cast a vote because they believe that the person there voting for has the right qualification. And someone's initials isn't a qualification for presidency... if you vote that way thats your hang up.

And JFK wasn't all that great of a president...He got us into Vietnam and screwed us at the Bay of pigs. And non of that has anything to do with the Election going on now...


but there seem to be some strange, irrational factors in his favor, like his initials "JFK".
This has nothing to do with people favoring him, all this is, is media hype & gutter politics

[jeeza]

Originally posted by YODA74
I'm speaking for most intelligent people that usually cast a vote because they believe that the person there voting for has the right qualification. And someone's initials isn't a qualification for presidency... if you vote that way thats your hang up.
Thank you in the name of intelligent people, and for enlightening me... I guess you didn't understand that I was presenting just some information, not my own opinion.
And, well, you must certainly know that not only "intelligent people" happen to vote. Just as I think many more people than we probably realize are seeking help from astrologers, soothsayers and all flavors of occult practicioners, and basing their decisions on counsel of same, and letting themselves be prompted and goaded into consuming by images, words and sounds caught through the popular media, there are surely those who feel that a candidate with initials such as "JFK" must be worthy of their trust...

[classicsoftware]

And JFK wasn't all that great of a president...He got us into Vietnam and.

I suggest you read Robert Dallek's book An unfinished life and Richard Reeve's book A Profile of Power. Your quote shows a real lack of knowledge. That's the same convential wisdom that says GW Bush is dumb. Neither is accurate........

If Nixon won the election in 1960, there would have been a nuclear exchnage over Cuba in 1963. Also, anyone who really reads would come to the conclusion JFK would never have esclated the war the way LBJ did.

[YODA74]

Also, anyone who really reads would come to the conclusion JFK would never have esclated the war the way LBJ did.

well lets see 1960 - Kennedy is elected President-AMERICAN ADVISERS IN SOUTH VIETNAM: 900

1961- June 4, Kennedy meets Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna (“Vietnam is the place”)- AMERICAN ADVISERS IN SOUTH VIETNAM: 3,205

1962- February 6, American Military Assistance Command formed in South Vietnam - AMERICAN ADVISERS IN SOUTH VIETNAM: 11,300

Looks like he was esculating it to me


If Nixon won the election in 1960,

Well he didn't so there is no IF

I suggest you read Robert Dallek's book An unfinished life and Richard Reeve's book A Profile of Power.

I don't care about someones personal opinion you either lived back then and remember it or you don't....I suppose you believe the civil war was fought over slavery too??

[classicsoftware]

The books are not opinions. Unless you view all history as "opinion". These are historians who have read the original source material, interbiewed the participants and listened to the tape recordings of the mettings that occurred at that time. They also had access to a great deal of information that was NOT available to those of us who were alive in the ealrly 1960's

While the civil war was about the "union" and the power of the federal government and the rights and powers of the individual states. The nexus of the strugle over this power and its evercise was slavery so in a way it was about slavery.

Just because you were there or alive in the 1960's doesn't mean you know what happened. If you were alive you know the politics of the time and you could explain to those who were not there why we became involved in southeast asia, under Eisenhower by the way when the french lost at Dien Bien Phu. And if you don't think JFK was serious about NOT sending 500,000 troops to fight in Vietnam then explain why there was meeting scheduled on November 23, 1963 to remove 1000 troops from Vietnam.

You were alive in 1960, I guess by your comments, you were there and

YOU DID NOT KNOW THE CUBANS HAD TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE USED THEM ON US TROOPS IF WE INVADED CUBA.

That is what we learned over time and that is what historian's provide us, facts not opinions.....

[YODA74]

Does the document as a whole suggest that U.S. policy makers had resigned themselves to a Communist victory, or that they rather intended to defeat the Communist insurgency?
NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263
TO:

Secretary of State
Secretary of Defense
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.
The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1 -3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

After discussion of the remaining recommendations of the report, the President approved the instruction to Ambassador Lodge which is set forth in State Department telegram No. 534 to Saigon.

McGeorge Bundy

Copy furnished: Director of Central Intelligence
Administrator, Agency for International Development 11/21/63

DRAFT

TOP SECRET

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM

The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned:

1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all decisions and U.S. actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contributions to this purpose.

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves with this objective in view.

4. It is of the highest importance that the United States Government avoid either the appearance or the reality of public recrimination from one part of it against another, and the President expects that all senior officers of the Government will take energetic steps to insure that they and their subordinate go out of their way to maintain and to defend the unity of the United States Government both here and in the field. More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting of November 20. The office or offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned is indicated in each case.

5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational efforts. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only our control of land but the productivity of this area whenever the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces. (Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.)

6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP accounting for ammunition and any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U.S. defense sources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import distribution and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta. (Action: AID and DOD as appropriate.)

7. With respect to action against North Vietnam, there should be a detailed plan for the development of additional Government of Vietnam resources, especially for sea-going activity, and such planning should indicate the time and investment necessary to achieve a wholly new level of effectiveness in this field of action. (Action: DOD and CIA)

8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be developed for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enterprise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should provide an alternative method of political liaison for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos. (Action: State, DOD and CIA.)

9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular, measures should be undertaken to satisfy ourselves completely that recent charges from Cambodia are groundless, and we should put ourselves in a position to offer to the Cambodians a full opportunity to satisfy themselves on this same point. (Action: State.)

10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jordan Report, as powerful and complete as possible. (Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.)

[YODA74]

YOU DID NOT KNOW THE CUBANS HAD TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WOULD HAVE USED THEM ON US TROOPS IF WE INVADED CUBA.


Not a reason not to give air support to our troops and the exiles there That is a cowards act..And that sounds like what a dem. would do


It's amazing to me that non of this has anything to do with DwnMp3origonal post or question.. but low and behold a comment had to be made
Please don't let yawningdog see this..... We'll get into another of our friendly but long winded discussion on the various merits of one paritcular party or point of view......

And for some reason you feel you need to do the same thing you accuse him of??

The thread is dead :(

[Steve]

I don't usually pay attention to the Democratic primaries. I've always voted Republican. But this year I've decided to vote for anyone but Bush. So I'm watching a little closer.

I'm glad Kerry is on a role. He's good enough. I'm glad I wont have to vote for Dean.

[pentachris]

I'll vote for any candidate who announces he (or she) is running on the 99 cent Whopper platform. I believe it's my right as an American to enjoy the classic fire-grilled 1/4 pound of beef, red ripe tomatoes, crisp lettuce, creamy mayonnaise, ketchup, crunchy pickles and onions all on a freshly baked bun for a buck.

And none of this "add a quarter for cheese" crap, either. Subsidize the cheese, too, I say!

Did you know that Congress (which, by the way, is the opposite of Progress) recently approved the following budget items???

$50 million for an indoor rain forest in Iowa, $50 million to make sure a Florida beach resort bridge remains toll-free, $450,000 to decipher the gene structure of rainbow trout, $225,000 to repair a public swimming pool whose drain U.S. Rep. Jim Gibbons of Nevada clogged with tadpoles when he was a kid, $200,000 to introduce golf to youngsters, $90,000 for the Cowgirl Hall of Fame, and, ironically, $500,000 for a University of Akron program that analyzes how Congress makes difficult budget decisions.

If they can spend money on that crap, surely they can justify sending money to Burger King and giving America a good burger at a good price. So write your elected official and tell them, just like the commercial says, we want to HAVE IT OUR WAY.

:p :D

[jeeza]

I learned through the television that Kerry had been a Vietnam veteran who afterwards became an anti-war activist, which, all other things being equal, made me respect him more than I thought I should do before, but, alas ! as is the tradition in American voting rites, they uncovered something which is supposed to move voters to move away from him...

[YODA74]

they uncovered something which is supposed to move voters to move away from him...

If your talking about the picture they have been showing (with a known communist) sympathizer That will make no difference in the way people prceive him there were a lot of famous people at that rally..

Also if your talking about the alleged fling with someone that he supposedly sent out of the country.. He stated this morning that that was false.And me even being a republican I believe him! Kerry isn't stupid and at this time in the race he wouldn't put himself in a position of making a statement that would definatly put him out of the race.

[Mark Miller]

Actually I think the news is something to do with an intern who worked for him. Not sure of details
Mark

[PrntRhd]

They have published a picture with Jane Fonda and Kerry at a anti-war rally a year or two before Fonda did the Hanoi Jane thing. He confirmed he was there, standing right behind her.

[jeeza]

He says however although he was there at the same time, he was not involved with her. He says he thinks he hadn't even shaken her hand.
BTW, YODA74, I was talking about his alleged infidelity. Good for him it turns out to be false.
Arnold's voters didn't hold his escapades against him, but being used to his Terminator image, they might be a lot more open-minded than prospective Kerry voters...

[gracious]

***Treading carefully as to not step on toes****

well I think that you should vote your conscience and not to be swayed by what other people think. I for one am greatful to be living in this great country of ours, with the freedoms to express our opinions and views. I am a registered democrat but let me tell you I have not liked what has happened to our party. What happened to the true grass roots? Al Gore..no way...look out for Hilary next. It seems to me that a politician is a politician and although there are suppose to be differences between the two parties..do you honestly..really see any?

I think the middle class has been shrinking too fast and if we are not careful we will only have the upper and lower class and then things will really turn nasty. The democrats have been an embarassment as far as I am concerned. I am trying desperately to grasp something, anything to vote democratic..and John Kerry being a war hero...yaddy yaddy is not enough for me. What about his CIA activities?

Anyway...I will try to look past the mud slinging and the rhetoric and go by what I feel is the right decision and not because someone is democrat or republican but because I think they will do the best job.

[DwnMp3]

if the middle class just disappears and all you have is rich and poor then another depression may just spring up. The perfect brewing ground for another hitler....way off topic :)

[Budfred]

I'm sorry, but if anyone can't see the difference between the 2 major parties at this point, you just aren't paying attention.

[DwnMp3]

Democrats are for:
Smaller Military
Tax increase to help people
Health-care for all
No death penatly

Republicans are for:
Bigger Military
Small Taxes people can help themsleves
Health if at all for children
Death Penatly

[Fatguy]

Originally posted by YODA74
Also if your talking about the alleged fling with someone that he supposedly sent out of the country.. He stated this morning that that was false.And me even being a republican I believe him! Kerry isn't stupid and at this time in the race he wouldn't put himself in a position of making a statement that would definatly put him out of the race.

Then why was the U.S. Justice Department searching all internet news sites all over the world looking for more..... I got the U.S. Department Of Justice checking out my headlines last week:

Click Here (http://fortressoffreedom.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1473#1473)


Just wondering?

[YODA74]

Then why was the U.S. Justice Department searching all internet news sites all over the world looking for more..... I got the U.S. Department Of Justice checking out my headlines last week:

Not sure what your saying?? Looking for what? more on Kerry's alleged infidelity with intern. It's what they call gutter politics it happens to be what both sides are really good at.

Do you actually think that Kerry at this point in the race would come right out and say that this was bogus knowing darn well that if it was true he would get caught in a lie...I don't think the american public is ready for any more lie's at this point.
I'm not even going to check out your link because I for one am tired of gutter politics.

If the U.S. Justice Department hasn't got better things to do with there time I'm sure some serious complants can be processed.
And you know another thing I really hate is someone that doesn't even live in this country and hasn't even a say in what goes on and can't even vote comming in and plastering nonsence.
Look to your own back yard I'm sure there are a few dogs that like to leave piles.

[Fatguy]

Originally posted by YODA74
And you know another thing I really hate is someone that doesn't even live in this country and hasn't even a say in what goes on and can't even vote comming in and plastering nonsence.
Look to your own back yard I'm sure there are a few dogs that like to leave piles.

A bit unfair, all I was saying was that our site was being probed because of the Kerry allegations. I made no comments here about the Democratic race.

Your comments do make me laugh though as the States is the worst offender when it comes to influencing other country's elections and such with it's foriegn policy. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones..... No flame here, I really do not care about the Democratic nomination; only what happened at my site.....

[YODA74]

A bit unfair,

Yes I was and so I apoligize for that pls. accept.

I'm just tired of mud slinging in politics it's getting to be the samo samo..It's almost like people are not even interested in anything that isn't "Reality TV" lets blow everything out of proportion because it isn't interesting enough...And the media is the biggest farst of it.

[Abbadon]

Originally posted by YODA74
I'm just tired of mud slinging in politics it's getting to be the samo samo..It's almost like people are not even interested in anything that isn't "Reality TV" lets blow everything out of proportion because it isn't interesting enough...And the media is the biggest farst of it.

For what it's worth: this is the same the world over. Election is comming up here in Belgium as well in a few months, and "suddenly" all kinds of stuff turns up in the media. It often feels like politics is more about marketing then anything else... :rolleyes:

[jeeza]

Originally posted by gracious
I think the middle class has been shrinking too fast and if we are not careful we will only have the upper and lower class and then things will really turn nasty.
How would such a thing be possible ? Me personally I don't think it is.
It would be as if trees suddenly grew no trunks anymore and became just roots and foliage.
What would that vanished middle class have transformed into ? Or where would it have gone ?

Anyway...I will try to look past the mud slinging and the rhetoric and go by what I feel is the right decision and not because someone is democrat or republican but because I think they will do the best job.
I don't think you can do much better than that.

[jeeza]

Originally posted by classicsoftware
The books are not opinions. Unless you view all history as "opinion". These are historians who have read the original source material, interbiewed the participants and listened to the tape recordings of the mettings that occurred at that time. They also had access to a great deal of information that was NOT available to those of us who were alive in the ealrly 1960's
(...)
That is what we learned over time and that is what historian's provide us, facts not opinions.....
Let's say those books express opinions backed by solid knowledge (or so they should). I would certainly tend to rely on those books more than on personal opinions voiced by your average Joe (which I didn't say YODA74 is, BTW). Most people probably tend to adopt extreme views in matters such as politics.

[gracious]

What would that vanished middle class have transformed into ? Or where would it have gone ?
The poor. Its the middle class that is the backbone of this country...both parents working just to survive...kids out of control..not getting enough of their wages back after all the junk that gets taken out, having to work longer hours just to keep their heads above water..manufacturing jobs that are now being done in Mexico..China..the rising cost of health care so that they end up paying the majority of the premiums through their paychecks...

I'm sorry, but if anyone can't see the difference between the 2 major parties at this point, you just aren't paying attention.
I do understand the difference between the two parties...at least what the parties are suppose to stand for but I don't see the democratic party candidates showing the democratic values I once adhered to as a democrat. The regular folks..the blue collar workers...they are now after big money and I really don't see a difference anymore. All I see are a bunch of whiners and complainers with nothing new to add to the pot...what suggestions do they have to fight these big corporations? Or terroism? What is it that is positive about the democratic party? What is their vision? I haven't heard one yet.

[jeeza]

Kerry's biography (http://www.local6.com/politics/2175889/detail.html) and link to blog.
Also biographies of Bush, Edwards, Kucinich, and Sharpton.