To college... or to certify?

[bigbaldpapa]

Greetings folks. New guy here...

I want A+ training and certs along with MCSE and whatever else would be helpful to be a good PC tech.

I am currently enrolled at DeVry U for an AA degree. Would it be best to continue with this or drop this and go get focused training and certs?

[john5211]

Hi there, and welcome to the forums!

I'm sure other people who are in the computer repair field can provide better specific advice, but if your situation permits it I strongly recommend finishing up at DeVry and then getting a bachelors degree in CS somewhere.

Even if you never touch another computer, a college degree is one of the best investments in your future that you can make.

Good Luck,
John

[Whyzman]

Originally posted by john5211
Even if you never touch another computer, a college degree is one of the best investments in your future that you can make.Excellent advice! :cool:

[bigbaldpapa]

Thanks gents. I did some reading and have decided to get the AA atleast and then get the certs on top of it.

Thank you for your time.

[Beta Geek]

Jsut one more thing, stick around here for a while! :)

[bigbaldpapa]

Absolutely. Only problem is I dont have a "working" PC at home at the moment. I need new memory... a new HD and would love to upgrade my 1.2 gig Athlon processor.

I start school tomorrow. I am pretty geeked about going. While it is only part time this semeseter due to funds, I get to knock my english and critical thinking classes out of the way so i can get to the goodstuff when I attend full time next semester.

29 years old and FINALLY getting to school.... :eek:

[diurnal]

john5211 hit it on the head. Get that degree then get the secondary certifications. I actually had this conversation with my head advisor the other day at the university. And he said the first thing he looks at on resumes is that degree.

Also he agreed that A+ and other certification helps in getting a job. Although, he stressed that he's looking for a degree above other things.
cya

[bigbaldpapa]

Cool. I am gonna look into the certs while I attend the school. Does anyone have any word on SmartCertify Direct?

[juniper]

My personal outlook on this subject is based on experience as a networking professional of 14 years. I would be leary of any employer that requests a degree over a certification in the computer world as a bachelors in CS will teach you nothing of actualy doing hands on server or router work and if they are requesting a bachelors degree over certs and experience they themselves no nothing of networking only management.
if you are just starting out in computers I would get the certs and experience and then move to a degree when you want to do a management position. I would never hire a microsoft/novell/cisco engineer/administrator that does not have a cert, as well they will have to pass a hands on lab proving their abilities even if they have a masters as none of those degrees teach how to rebuild a server or even trouble shoot a specific OS you will however learn basic VBscript hehe.
I have seen posted jobs for router engineers they request a bachelors degree or 10 years experience personaly I laugh at this especialy when they hire me to fix their network at my ungodly consulting fee later down the road because they hired someone with a bachelors and no experience. I have even been to universities that teach networking to fix their equipment as a consultant because their teachers only know what is in the book.
It comes down to this if you want to be a hands on engineer get the certs if you want to be a manager sitting behind the desk telling the engineers what their next raise will be get the degree.
In almost all of my experience and travels the person that is managing the IT department came from accounting and hires out the technical work this would encorporate about 70% of all businesses I have been to rarely is the IT manager a person with a degree in IT.

[john5211]

So I certainly wouldn’t disagree with anything that juniper said, but I still recommend that anyone who wants to go into a computer related field (or just about any other profession, for that matter) get a college degree for the following reasons:

1) A college degree opens doors that otherwise will not be open, regardless of the certification or training that you have or what you know. This may be unfair and unfortunate, but it is also true. We live in a world where people need to present credentials and there are many positions you will not even be considered for without a college degree.

2) A college degree offers a chance to go into a wide variety of fields; if you change your mind about what you want to do, a college degree will turn out to be much more portable. If you get certified to fix computers you can do pretty much one thing ... fix computers (the last sentence sounds a little harsh and is an oversimplification, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make).

3) A college degree provides a breadth of knowledge not found in technical certifications. One of the key differences between colleges and vocational schools is that colleges (and universities) have requirements beyond whatever specific field you choose to specialize in. While it may not seem obvious, learning history and debating Kant (or whatever) will make you a better thinker, and the better you think the better you can do whatever you are trying to do. Additionally, many skills that prove useful and are basic requirements at almost all colleges are not found in technical certifications (e.g. critical writing, advanced math, etc.).

Of course, I'm not trying to say that certs don't have any value ... if you want to be a PC tech then at some point you need to learn how to fix PCs, and I assume that certifications are a good way to make sure that you know what you’re doing. Also, keep in mind that it's not always necessary to choose between certifications and a degree ... in a perfect world one can do both.

Oh my, this post seems to be getting pretty long ... sorry about that.

John

[juniper]

I would have to agree to a point the only degree i would consider is a bachelor in business management and thats it as it applies to everything. to get a degree in CS would not be a well fit for a operations manager position if you decide you dont like computer work however if you do like computer work and the management job opens up in IT the business degree is perfect with the certs and experience you already gained.
Certs in reality are not through a college but by a vendor such as cisco, microsoft, and novell I personaly self study all tests and have an alphabet soup credential like you would not believe, the point is you have to prove your knowledge of that specific application you are working with (except microsoft tests hehe you can just get the cram sheets) but novell and cisco have simulators.

A degree means you can read a book and memorize what it says a cert means you have proven some comprehention of the material specific to a job not a theory of business ethics.

of course a degree will open more opportunities as well so will certs the order you take them is what I think is different as I would want to jump into a career and have my employer pay for my college hehe so I can move on to management.

[bigbaldpapa]

Great input gentlemen. I have been discussing this with folks at the school also... pretty much the same sort of thing that juniper is saying.

I am a hands-on type of guy. I want the training because i want to build and repair systems and networks. I could very easily change my course to just pick up a buisness degree and go get certs.

As far as certs go, what avenues are reccomended to get these done? i.e SmartCertify Direct?

[juniper]

here is the skinny on what I would do in your situation. This is just my opinion though. If you are in college at this time change course to business degree and do it part time only as saying you are in college for a bachelors is practicly the same as having one in an interview(knowing most colleges this requires changing a whopping 5 classes hehe prolly still have to take the VB course though).

In the off time get microsoft MCSE certified, depending on your finances you could take a boot camp or the 3 day courses that pertain to each test (this is how I got my MCP on NT4 server and CNS -bordermanager however my employer paid for these). In reality though you could goto the bookstore and buy the books and self study and use cram exams the tests are $125.00 US. PLEASE get some sort of lab at home to play with the servers hands on and do the labs! ( I hate paper MCSE's and is the reason people should do hands on labs before hiring ) At the point you get A+ and first MCP you could get into computer repair or network tech at a small/medium business within 6 months you should have MCSE and could now be administrator. at this point it is time to specialize your certs namely Citix or Cisco CCNA to start then role into security within two years you should be $50,000 salary or higher. Security is very difficult and requires an indepth knowledge of protocols and OS's however the benifits are over 6 figure income.
the other option is CCNP and look for employment at an ISP the big ones start out round $60,000 - $80,000 yr. (funny thing is the one I worked at would laugh at you if you had a CCIE)

Also note the uprise of linux I see jobs all the time for this field and with 3-5 years experience can pay upto $100,000 yr as this market has not yet begun to get saturated (There is a killing to be made if you are good enough to consult in this arena.)

This is where people fail - you have to keep yourself marketable never let certs expire and stay on top of the IT trend never stay with just a MCSE or CNE get both and keep a specialization to keep yourself one step above the other applicants.

Its interesting that some of the Engineers I run into do have degrees and will never use them since they will never make the money they make as a certified engineer they feel its something to fall back on when it comes close to retirement (desk job at 50 hehe).

( I refuse to get the A+ cert as I feel it belittles my real certs and most professionals that have it will never put it on their cards )

Side note.. you people are saturating the IT field stay out of it so I can make more money hehehehehe!

[bigbaldpapa]

/busts out his IT acronym dictionary :confused:

Thanks for taking the time to reply in depth like that. I honestly appreciate it. I live in the Pacific NW and there are plenty of lil bootcamps or other ways that I can get that training.

I am in luck. I am only taking 2 classes at the moment (English 112 and Critical Thinking) and they are both needed for the buisness degree, so i am not missing much if i switch directions.

[diurnal]

Ok, hello juniper. It’s nice to have your professional opinion about this subject. So, let’s take a deeper look at your statements.


I have seen posted jobs for router engineers they request a bachelors degree or 10 years experience personally I laugh at this especialy when they hire me to fix their network at my ungodly consulting fee later down the road because they hired someone with a bachelors and no experience
I know to get hired with a bachelor’s degree you must have 10 yrs experience as well. Maybe you meant to put AND instead of OR? Well if this is true then something is not right. This seems to be injustice in my opinion.


My personal outlook on this subject is based on experience as a networking professional of 14 years.
We are glad you have so much talent, since it’s stated all throughout your post. Hip hip hooray,,,


I would be leary of any employer that requests a degree over a certification in the computer world as a bachelors in CS will teach you nothing of actualy doing hands on server or router
Well, this statement was to my previous post. Since you have stated your massive intellect , I must state my sources on this one. The employer, that I referred to, (my advisor) is a doctor in Business Information Systems. Our Business Department is an accredited school and is equated to Harvard. Oh, by the way the school is AUM, you can research it if you like.


I have even been to universities that teach networking to fix their equipment as a consultant because their teachers only know what is in the book.
Hmmm, this seems odd. Was this a basic networking class or a high level class, please elaborate. Also did you ever think that the teacher’s job was to teach rather than fix networks? As you know, networking, can be a tedious job.


A degree means you can read a book and memorize what it says a cert means you have proven some comprehention of the material specific to a job not a theory of business ethics.
Theory of Business Ethics? What major does this apply to, because there are countless majors in computers.
I have to disagree that we just memorize books. How did you come to that conclusion? It just doesn’t make sense?
Furthermore, we do have hands on experience, such as labs and we much get 10 years job experiences.

In a nutshell, I agree that certifications are crucial in obtaining a job. However, it seemed you bashed degrees in the ground. Lastly, Im kinda partial to what the experts(doctors) tell me and believe me I'll be finishing school.

CYA:)

[diurnal]

I would be leary of any employer that requests a degree over a certification in the computer world as a bachelors in CS will teach you nothing of actualy doing hands on server or router work
Computer Science isnt suppose to deal with networking and routing. However, it does provide some courses in networking. CS deals with software and database systems. So, they have nothing to do with the networking field. How did you figure CS majors dealt with networking ,and routing? Seems you have stumble upon misinformation.

[juniper]

Diurnal, I think you need to reread my post and I did not stutter on the AND/OR. The universities I have been to are very large with a full staff of networking professionals. I wont give location away though.
The problem here is that labs are controlled environments and as such the answer is in the book. Anyone with a computer knows that in reality things just dont work as planned. When was the last time your lab involved calling novell or microsoft so they can right a patch for a bug that they where not even aware existed? For me to brag would be me saying today I installed a Cisco 2610 router w/T1 wic for frame relay backed up by a PIX 515 firewall with client-to-site VPN access with static routes to mail,citrix and IIS web server with firewall setup for numerous outside inside access with N2H2 for content filtering for one client and moved another from queue based printing to NDPS with SLP for IP advertisements for another client and replaced a bad drive for yet another and made sure the RAID 5 rebuilt the drive ok for yet another. The theory and labs behind what I did in one day would take a year in college to even start to comprehend. My training comes from my employers highering Cisco,Novell,Microsoft experts from the vendor itself to train cram classes. I learned in 4 days of a juniper router course how to configure IS-IS, OSPF, BGP to support MPLS on internet routers as well as coloring routes for traffic engineering just to go back to the NOC and start using the information in real world. Ask your Doctor how MPLS works with RSVP.

I was not bragging intelect as I stated all this is my opinion based on 14 years of working in the field which I feal is very relavent to this conversation. I am very happy for your doctor friend that spent 10 years of college ungodly amounts of money to become a teacher his opinion however is not based on anything other than opinion. Read "Rich Dad Poor Dad" if you want to see some real degree bashing in a #1 financial best seller. (personaly I think the book is a con though man Im opinionated hehe)

By the way I did not say to NOT get a degree, I said to get the degree just not the first thing out of the shute if getting into tech field, I do have a degree myself which is why I know you will never get the hands on you need for the real world it is book work. "Buisiness ethics"
well think about it every bachelor degree program I have seen you have to take this course yes this class is based on theory also.

Listen, Bigbaldpapa wants to do computer / networking work the certs not the degree will get you in the door first. This I do know as I never got an offer from having my degree untill I got certified however, I know a bunch of people that got in the door with just certs so I would start there build my experience while getting my degree when bigbaldpapa gets his degree he will have certs up the wazoo and 6 yrs of experience going my route, so in his mid 30's he will be more than competent to be a Director of almost any large firms IT department, This my friend is called reality.

If Bigbaldpapa wants to be a lawyer or dentist by all means go to college to get started in that career. The Computer field is a whole nother story and you are out of date in 6 months it is competitive and the hardest learning curve of almost any career. Passing the Novell CNE has been compared to passing a bar exam. Peace im done with this as its just my opinion and thats it I didnt appreciate you making it personal towards me.

Oh the CS came from the second post hehe

[bigbaldpapa]

I am not going for a CS degree.

I am looking to get into the building and repair of systems and networks. Im not looking to engineer or anything like that. I just basically want to be a computer mechanic. With that I also want to be able to consult on computer and network solutions (if there is such an occupation lol).

Here is what I am currently going to school in...

http://www.devry.edu/programs_ect.html (Electronics and Computers Technology)

If you think i am on the wrong track let me know.

[juniper]

I know exactly what you want to do it is what I do for a living.
get A+ and Network+ certified - This will give you basic hardware knowledge and a basic understanding of networking both these tests can go towards MCSE.

MCP - Microsoft Certified Professional - take the XP pro test next and get XP certified so you can repair XP on workstations/home computers.

then followup for getting the full MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer) This will give you the starting knowledge of building servers and administration.

Then take CCNA from cisco to get a little more advanced networking knowledge.

Then if you like server/PC work specialize with Citrix if you like LAN/WAN/firewall stuff specialize cisco

The complex stuff will be gained through experience as no test or school will prepare you for this. (except maybe CCIE lab test hehe)

[bigbaldpapa]

Well, luck has stricken again. With my tuition i am entitled to free online courses. One of the courses is A+ prep for the cert. I am going to start there.

[papertech]

Hi bigbaldpapa, welcome.

I definitely recommend you get your degree. Any degree is good. It greatly increases your starting salary.

CS degree is better as it makes you learn the history of pc which is important because of the effort to retain the backwards compatability thing.

I did the MCSE boot camps and received a paper inside 6 months. It did not qualify my for anything since I had no experience nor degree.

A+ cert is good to have. Start with a book. SmartCertify is pretty good.

Certs require a vast amount of disciplined self study. The last exam I took cost me $199 whether you pass it or not. My A+ took 2 exams, my MCSE took 6 exams.

[Quantax]

From time to time you might want to check out the A+ Certification Usenet newsgroup.

[juniper]

I did the MCSE boot camps and received a paper inside 6 months. It did not qualify my for anything since I had no experience nor degree.

If you couldnt get a PC tech job with a MCSE even without on the job experience you must live in one crazy area. In the United States I can find starting tech jobs everywhere if you hold that cert, try going to monster.com hehehe!. Actualy the guy I worked with in an ISP NOC (network operations center) working on backbone internet routers had a bachelors in hotel management decided he wanted to change careers hehehe he took a six week bootcamp got MCSE and makes $80,000 yr right out the chute

[papertech]

Thank you for making my point....the guy you worked with had a degree. As I said, any degree is good.

I never said I couldn't or didn't get a job with my certs. I said the certs did not qualify me for anything. It took me 2 years working in the field before I had the skills that gave me confidence. Since I had no degree of any kind, my starting salary was $30K. After 2 yrs, I was at $40K. My boss, CTO with CS masters degree, started with 6 figures.

Now, several years later, I run my own shop and charge $35 per hour labor. I live in central Florida.

By the way, juniper, have you interviewed for any of those jobs you find everywhere in the US? Have you worked any other jobs than your current one?

[juniper]

Actualy yes that is how I got into the ISP NOC was through monster.com before that I worked at a college in IS dep (built netware 2.2 and 3.11 servers and cabling), Had my own buisiness for two years doing PC work, worked as a admin and as a network analyst and now I am a consultant for the largest consulting firm in my city my fees are 100 hr for PCs and 125 for servers and 150 for routers switches and firewalls I only do corporate buisinesses no home equipment. believe me I have alot of clients I talk to on this subject as I have always looked at the higher education as a money scam I do know what 80% of small/medium buisinesses are looking for when highering as sometimes they will have us do the technical interview for them. this is my opinion though I cant imagine paying 20,000 for an education that would start me out at 30,000 a year when I was making 30,000 a yr without one the reason I did get it was because my employer paid for it. I guess I am confused at your comment as to what made you qualified after the degree? I think you just lacked self confidence if you work in this field then you know that it is your experience and not the degree that is getting you the jobs and the fact that you now understand what you are talking about during the interview. My friend had a bachelors in hotel management he was 1 of 15 engineers there and only the two of us had degrees.

[papertech]

The reason I got MCSE was because someone else paid for it. On the job training gave me the experience which led to self confidence. Today there is a glut of IT workers, so for a young person trying to decide whether or not to get a degree, the answer should be yes. No doubt higher education is a money scam, but when you're out there trying to find your first or second job, wouldn't you admit the potential for receiving higher starting salary is excelerated if you have any college degree?

[juniper]

I cant agree with that in the IT field no, In many other fields such as accounting and management doctor/lawyer yes it would benifit. as a business owner would you pay a starting PC tech out with a bachelors degree and no experience more then someone starting out with an MCSE and A+ with no experience? I would hope not as the one with MCSE and A+ would have way more knowledge and need less training. As a newbie comming into this field I would say learn linux and get linux certified as MCSE is getting over run with people and bringing salaries down for MCSE's just like novell in the 90's it is all about staying ahead of the others in a specialty that makes you worth the money in this field sort of like comparing salaries of a brain surgeon with that of a clinic physician. I am reffering to being a tech/engineer here not management.