Processor getting too hot...

[TredH20]

Just upgraded my system. Here are my specs:

Intel 865 PERLL Motherboard
P4 2.8E w/ 800 Mhz FSB 1MB L2 Cache
ATI Radeon 9800 128MB
2 x Kingston 512K PC3200 DDR RAM
Antec Performance Plus 1080 AMG SOHO File Server Case w/ 430 Watt PSU

Now here is my problem...Before I bought the new case I was running this hardware in another Antec...that just had terrible airflow. I was running very hot...hitting the threshold of 69C just running Aquamark3D. SO I went out and bought this new case...it has the capacity for five fans...so I filled it with fans. But I am still having issues with overheating. The other day I was idling at about 39-41 Celsius, much cooler than with the old case...today I am idling at 45-46 Celsius (granted...it is a little warmer today than yesterday). But I was trying out a new game...and I got the overtemp beep and the Intel Active Monitor warning. My question is...with five fans...shouldn't this thing be cool all the time? I am not overclocking anything...so that's not an issue. Could there be an issue with the CPU fan and heatsink? Is the stock Intel fan and heatsink a piece of crap? Should I go out an by another cpu fan and heatsink? Is 69 C going to hurt my processor? Can I ask anymore questions?

Any opinions would greatly help me out...as I am running out of ideas...and cash.

[Deagle]

How is your fans setup?

[TredH20]

I have two rear, one side, and two front...as well as the cpu fan and the powersupply fan.

[Whyzman]

Air "flow" is probably more important than the total number of fans present...

What direction do you have your case fans pulling or pushing air into/out of the case??

It does sound like there's an issue with your Processor set up...

Is the fan set up to pull air from the sink or push it out??

Is your stock sink fan a 60mm??

[TredH20]

Well the two rear fans came installed with the case...and I believe they are pushing air out. I will check that though, as they came installed already...and if I wasn't going to install front fans, they may have them set up to pull air in. If they are blowing air in...that is probably my issue...just have a lot of hot air moving around inside.

The two front fans definitely pull air in.

The side fan also pulls air in...looks like it hits my AGP slot.

I think the stock cpu heat sink fan is 60mm...as it is smaller than the 80mm case fans. I think it pulls air from the sink, though, again...I should check.

[TredH20]

Just checked the Antec manual for the case...the two preinstalled fans are set up so they are blowing out...

[Whyzman]

Ideally, it appears to be best if the front fans pull air in and are oriented low so that the air can naturally rise crossing the motherboard and get pushed out, either centrally in the rear or upper rear, through a fan or pushed out through the power supply...

This type of setup is designed to eliminate stagnant air pockets within the case and keep a flow of ambient air moving across the components.

As far as the CPU fan, I would definitely recommend going with an 80mm...

As far as how it is oriented (i.e., pulling air away or pushing through the fins) I've had both setups...Pushing through seems to be more effective...although, you might want to wait for some more input.

I think the fans on the stock sinks normally come set up to pull rather than push...

[TredH20]

Checked all the fans last night. I had the two rear fans hooked up to the PSU's "fan only" power attachments. The PSU monitored them and kept the rear fans running low...so I removed them and attached them to the normal power connectors. So they run at full speed now. The front fans are down low, and run at full speed, and the side panel fan is running at full speed. I checked the speed for the PSU rear fan though...and it is only moving at 1000 RPMs. I checked the manual for the Antec True Power 430 Watt...and it said that it spins at 1500-1800 RPMs normally, but that some mobo's can't detect a speed that low and will think it is at 0 RPMs or some other random number. So I wonder if it is actually spinning that slowly or it is at 1500 RPMs. Idling was at about 43-45 C.

5 minutes of City of Heroes, character creation utility, causes the temp to sky rocket to 70 C and the alarms go off.

Whyzman- I was having some difficulties with putting this computer together a few weeks ago. I couldn't boot up, the computer would shut down due to some kind of thermal event. I reseated everything, and it started working with no problems. Do you think I could have disrupted the thermal interface material on the heat sink when reseating it? Could this cause my heat problems? Also (doh)...I broke off one of the clips on the fan/heatsink...it still forms a good seal (i think), but it's a pain to get off. Could this broken clip cause part of the heat sink to not seal tightly against the processor?

Should I just call intel and see if I can have them send me a new cpu fan/heatsink under warranty?

[Abbadon]

Intel stock fans & hs as delivered with current PIV-in the box-procs are realy rather good material. Certainly good enough for non overclocking use. I keep mine below 45° at all times with it(antec case with 4 fans) and the proc-fan rotates at about 1300rpm.

Therefore: I would lean towards the "thermal compound is disturbed" and "3 clips isn't enough to maintain propper contact between HS & proc" explainations.

Reseating a proc always requiers the thermal compound to be re-applied. Now that I think of it: Did de proc come with a "sticker" attached at the bottom? A "thermal pad" so to speak? If so, it will be / have been disturbed by reseating the proc, and should be replaced with a new thermal pad or fresh thermal comound.

[TredH20]

Thanks Abbadon. You can tell I am new to building PC's, huh? I will get in touch with Intel and see if I can replace the fan/heatsink. Hopefully, a new fan/heatsink will be able to solve the problem!

[Abbadon]

When you replace the heatsink, be sure to clean the proc of residual thermal compoundfirst. Carefully though, don't wanna damage that baby :)
I usually use some paper tissue to remove the old thermal compound, or a dry, lintfree cloth. No sharp objects, no scraping.

Also: if the new hs comes with a thermal pad at the bottom (a black, square "sticker") you can leave it there of course, but (carefully) removing it and replacing it with a good thermal compound wil increase cooling efficiency by +/- 5°. Read warranty first though! Not sure if this procedure voids it. If so, it's up to you to decide wether a +/-5° temp-drop is worth a voided waranty.

If during the replacement, you're unsure of how excactly something goes, don't hesitate to post back!

Good luck!

[pave_spectre]

Originally posted by Abbadon
but (carefully) removing it and replacing it with a good thermal compound wil increase cooling efficiency by +/- 5°. Read warranty first though! Not sure if this procedure voids it.

Both AMD and Intel warranties are voided by replacing the stock thermal material with anything not recommended by them.

This means that everybodies favourite, Arctic Silver, kills the warranty.:rolleyes:

[korky45]

Just joining the discussion, I think the fan situation has been bottomed out by Whyzman.It is unlikely that the problem lies with the case fans, and I agree with Whyzman -

As far as the CPU fan, I would definitely recommend going with an 80mm....

On his point, it will also give you an opportunity to resolve the situation with your CPU. I would not trust a broken heatsink clip - we are talking possible air gaps between the CPU/heatsink much less than a millimeter. You would never see them with the naked eye.

Play safe and change the heatsink, also think about what you want to use as the interface - I still prefer the thermal paste.

Always buy good quality.

Thanks:)

[TredH20]

Thanks for all the advice people. I think that I am first going to try and get on the horn with Intel tonight, discuss replacing the stock fan/heatsink with the warranty (does anyone know how long it takes to get a replacement item through warranty?). I will try that out, and then if it isn't working...either look to buy another fan/heatsink from another mfg. like cooler master, thermaltake, zalman...or see if I can get the whole processor replaced.

I know it's another question...but could the temp problem be caused by a bad processor? Everything else with it seems to run fine, programs run really fast and everything...so I doubt that is it.

I will keep you all posted. Once again, thanks!

[Whyzman]

Could it be the processor?? I'd say not...

Processors are going to generate heat and would ultimately burn up unless we give them a way to shed it...

I'm not sure what exactly you snapped off???

If the solution would be a new heatsink and fan replacement, I would take the warranty setup and tuck it away neatly somewhere and upgrade to something like a Thermaltake with an 80mm fan...

If you're ambitious you might want to consider lapping the sink...Most sinks appear to be made using some type of extrusion process and then "chunked" into individual units. When they cool they all seem to "cup" on the bottom right where the processor and sink interface...

Lapping levels out the bottom of the sink making for a truly flat interface...you still need to use something like Arctic Silver (recommended)...but you would see you temps drop an average of 3-5C...thus sayeth mjc! ;)

http://www.overclockersclub.com/guides/heatsinklappingguide.php

[korky45]

Whyzman is advice is good, go for the fan/heatsink.

[TredH20]

Quick update. So I received the warranty replacement for my heat sink and cpu fan today. Removed the old one, cleaned off all of the old thermal interface material and installed the new one. Now...I am idling at 50 C rather than 43-45...and I can't even sign onto the internet without it hitting 69 C and getting the threshold alert.

Do you have to let thermal interface material "break in" before it starts working? Or...did I just get hosed with a worse heat sink than I had before?

Thermaltake here I come...

[pave_spectre]

Originally posted by TredH20
Do you have to let thermal interface material "break in"

Yes, but not that much.

[korky45]

The heatsink should be OK, but it may need lapping with wet and dry paper, have a look, its going to have to be checked out anyway. Having said all of that I'm surprised that you still have the overheating problem!

Even with the stock heatsink and thermal interface you should be able to get an effective mating - it just seems to me that somehow the interface is not good enough.

Be sure you follow the installation advice carefully - Abbadon'S thread.


Thanks

Good Luck:)

[TredH20]

Well, I ran a few benchmarks on the computer last night, and I also played around on City of Heroes. I monitored the temp on the CPU closely, and when it approached 69 C I would exit out of everything and let it cool down. Eventually, I got it so the CPU idled at 38 C and would only heat up to around 57-60 C under load. So that isn't too shabby, compared to what I used to run at. I guess I just needed to let it stretch a little bit before flexing its muscles. Barring any other unforeseen difficulties, this'll be my last post on this topic!!!(applause) I will most likely look into picking up a better cpu fan/heatsink in the future, but at the moment...if I spend another penny on this computer my wife will kill me. I just wanted to thank you all for your help, your individual opinions and expertise has really helped me.

[Whyzman]

Eventually, I got it so the CPU idled at 38 C and would only heat up to around 57-60 C under load.What were you doing to get it to drop??

[korky45]

Again I agree with Wyzman, you need to get those temps down, 57-60 C, your on a knife's edge.

By the way, I think everyone will agree, your posts are not a problem to us - we want to help.

Keep your feedback coming we'll get there in the end.


Thanks :)

[Abbadon]

A-ha!

You're running a P4 2.8E

I overlooked in your first post. That's a prescott! prescotts run much hotter then Northwoods, so taking that into account, your current tempreadings seem a bit more understandable, maybe even normal...

[TredH20]

Yes...the dreaded Prescott!!! Are these temps considered normal? I read reviews that the processor ran a little hot...but 69 C was VERY hot.

Wyzman to answer your question...I was just running aquamark3d and the Intel Stress Test...and then quitting the programs and letting it cool off. Each time I did this it would cool off a bit more each time. Then I would fire up some more programs and monitor the temp. Each time, the max temp. would be lower than the previous attempt. Perhaps the thermal tape melted down a bit and allowed for better contact with the processor?

I took off the old heatsink and noticed that a large portion of the thermal tape had melted off to one corner...and in fact may have not been in 100% contact with the processor. I think this might be from breaking the clip frame when installing.

[Abbadon]

Well, I picked this little chart up on legitreviews.com (see here (http://www.legitreviews.com/reviews/prescotttemp/2.html) for full review)

It would indeed indicate that with stock cooling, your current temps are pretty standard.

[pave_spectre]

Perhaps the thermal tape melted down a bit and allowed for better contact with the processor?

Now that you mention it I remember reading that very thing about cetain thermal materials. They require a certain amount of heat and time before to actually 'bond' with the surfaces of the heatsink and processor core.:rolleyes:

Frankly I personally dont trust that type of material since the last lot I had actually melted off the processor and onto the PCB contributing to some undetermined problems.

[Whyzman]

You mention breaking the clip frame...are we talking about the "studs" that protrude on the processor assembly?? One of those is broken off??

Or, was it the clip assembly that locks onto the studs??

If something broke on the studs, then you would not be able to get the proper force necessary to mate the processor and heatsink...

What we are trying to achieve is actually the thinest interface possible. Although designed to assist with heat transfer, the thermal tape or compounds lose efficiency the thicker they are...

As Pave alluded, what's probably going on is, between the pressure exerted by the clip/spring assembly and the initial heat, the processor is imbedding itself. This more than likely continues to happen until it hits the maximum depth/closeness it can achieve sans lapping...

If these processors normally run hotter as Abbadon points out, I would definitely suggest considering an alternative cooling solution.

Since heat is the nemesis of electrical components, I would push the envelope to cool this baby down a bit...

As I mentioned before, a 80mm fan and a better sink (copper finned perhaps) and lapping should help tremendously...

I begin with 320 grit wet/dry paper moving in a figure 8. You can use a piece of glass for a flat surface. With the 320, you will be able to see the "high centered" interface very quickly as the outside edges of the sink get planed. This also will let you see how far you have to go to get a level playing field...so to speak! ;)

I then go to 400, 600, and then 1500 (perhaps a bit anal...but I like the shine! :D ) The sandpaper cost me about .75 cents a sheet at a local hardware. One sheet of each should be sufficient.

It sounds like every little bit helps with these processors...

My take on it, is that the stock fan/sink setup is inefficient if those are the temps...I would pull it off, sock it away somewhere, and spend a couple bucks to get something with some "clout!" :cool:

[TredH20]

Can anyone recommend a good cpu heatsink/fan? I was thinking perhaps the thermalright sp-94 and a thermaltake 80mm.

[pave_spectre]

Originally posted by Whyzman
I then go to 400, 600, and then 1500 (perhaps a bit anal...but I like the shine! :D )

What does it say about me then that I used 2000 grit on mine.:eek: :p

Can't recommend a heatsink, but whichever one you go for make sure and use a decent thermal compound like Arctic Silver (http://www.arcticsilver.com/).

[korky45]

I can only add support to what Wyzman and pave_spectre have articulated.

There is still a problem, I believe, with the heatsink interface. I don't think there should be such a variation between idling and load temps in normal usage. That's a broad band of temps you have, it would worry me if left like that for long.

Like Wyzman, I keep thinking of the original problem of the clips, and wondering if there is still a problem. It's vital for effective cooling that these clips give the closest possible mating.

Artic Silver is the ace thermal compound as pave_spectre has said, and that looks like a pretty good procedure for lapping, in Wyzman's thread, if you want to have a go - but make sure the holding clips, as a priority, are performing properly.


Thanks:)

Good Luck

[TredH20]

The clips that were broken on the first fan/heatsink were on the clip frame on the fan assembly. The new heatsink clips are in good condition and as far as I know are performing the way they are supposed to.

Would anyone recommend the Thermaltake Spark 7? I am looking at that and some arctic silver 5.

[Whyzman]

Originally posted by pave_spectre
What does it say about me then that I used 2000 grit on mine.:eek: :p Hmmmm...that you like to look at yourself in the mirror? :D

[korky45]

I would recommend Arctic Silver 5. This my personal favorite! Have a look on their website, http://www.arcticsilver.com/ they tell you exactly how to use it.

Others may want to post their favorites, it depends on how you were brought up I think - so watch this space.

Thanks:)

[malcore]

I really doubt you will find any heatsink for under $30 that will give you equal or better cooling than the stock heatsink that comes with the newer P4s.

The Spark7 uses a 70mm fan, up to 6000rpm! It's going to be LOUD!!! It may knock a degree or two off at top speed.

I would consider this Zalman (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-118-109&depa=0) heatsink. It's a bit pricy (not too bad though), it's huge, it's very effective and it's quiet.

If you are going to put out money for an aftermarket heatsink for a P4 Prescott there is no use looking to save a few dollars. Either the Zalman or one of the top end Thermalright models like the SLK-948U or the SP-94.

You won't see much of a difference with anything less.

[Steve]

What does it say about me then that I used 2000 grit on mine.

Hmmmm...That you know of a better hardware store than I do???? ;)

[Whyzman]

The first few reviews on malcore's Zalman link are rather impressive and deal directly with Prescotts...looks like the terms Prescott and Heat will always be used in the same sentence...

[TredH20]

Just thought I would post back after a few months!!!

Well, the processor settled in a bit and under full load the stock heat sink and fan are keeping in the high 50's low 60's. With the summer weather upon us, the temp has been rising as of late...so it looks like I am going to pick up the Zalman that was featured earlier in the thread or the new Thermaltake Silent Tower Heatpipe series...and some AS5 of course. I will also be taking a trip to the local Home Depot this weekend to pick up some tiles to build a new kitchen countertop, and I will have to swing by the "sandpaper aisle" to get some supplies for lapping. Wish me luck! Thank you all for the help you've given me!

My wife thanks you to!!! No more nights of me in the computer room cursing up a storm!

[Whyzman]

Thanks for the update! Would you keep us posted as to how things go as you make the additions and alterations?? :)

[korky45]

Nice to hear from you again TredH20. I am glad your wife has got you back - good luck with the tiling.:D

[rond36]

If lapping is what you want to do you may want to check this out at Frozen CPU.com (http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/lag-01.html) it is a heatsink lapping kit. The kit comes with step by step instructions to follow.

MATERIALS INCLUDED:

- Eight (8) 4.5” x 5.5” (114mm x 140mm) sheets of wet-or-dry sandpaper
Grits included (in order from blue to gray) : 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, 2000 & 2500
- 4.5" x 5.5" flat lapping surface

If you get the Thermalright SLK-947U, SLK-948U, or SP-94 they are machined not extruded and the base is polished to a mirror finish and do not need lapped.

[TredH20]

Bingo! I got Bingo!

Picked up the Thermaltake Silent Tower and some AS5. Lapped the heatsink before installing it. Now my idle temp is 36 C and my max temp under load so far is 46 C. BIG difference. I am expecting the temps to drop a little bit more too, haven't let the AS5 break in for 200 hours.

Installing the heat sink was a little bit of work...involves removing the stock heatsink and frame, and installing a new bracket system. And this thing is huge! And heavy! But it is so quiet, more quiet than the stock fan.

Thanks for the help guys and gals!

[rik148755]

I am having similar problems to you with an AMD xp2400

I have just read all of this and think I seriously need to lap and get a better fan.

Good advice from all the guys here. :)