BSOD's are BACK! (Memory, need help!)

[bigwayne]

This is part 2 of my continuing struggle to get working RAM. See my original thread here (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=175072) .

I have since then RMA'd my RAM, got it back, and put it in only to see there are more errors. I have taken the advice of many and relaxed my timings, and relaxed them almost as far as they'll go. Its supposed to be CLS 2 and right now I have it at 3... Anyway, I haven't ran MemTest86 on it yet, this will take an hour or so, and since this is the only working box I have atm I want to get this post out before I run anything.

What I'm asking now is if anyone knows anything else that could be causing these recurring errors, I have this really fine notion that my RAM hasn't always been bad, and want to know if perhaps theres something you guru's can tell me that I'm overlooking.

Let me run MemTest and I'll check back when its done.

[malcore]

You should really test the sticks one at a time. If one fails, move it to another DIMM slot. If it fails there, move it to the third DIMM slot. Then begin testing the other stick the same way.I know it's time consuming but that's the nature of troubleshooting sometimes. You may find one or more of the motherboard's DIMM slots are faulty, or one stick of RAM is faulty.

Corsair used to have a bad reputation but their higher end RAM has been rock solid on the nforce platform. It is rated for 2.8V VDIMM and runs nicely there.

Have you overclocked anything?

Just FYI, memtest86 from memtest dot com is quite old now. The maker stopped updating it. But some other fellows over at http://www.memtest.org/ have picked it up and updated it under the Gnu Public License. Recognizes newer chipsets and RAM modules now, reading frequencies and timings. Give it a try.

[bigwayne]

Thanks so much for the advice. I know the nature of troubleshooting too, and thats what I was doing after I stopped updating my previous thread. But I haven't yet with this new batch, so I'll heed your words and try it again. The RAM did a full test and didn't uncover a single error, yet continues to BSOD all over me in any game. nv4disp.dll <-NVidia Drivers? Its not as time consuming as one might think though, and I rather enjoy the task of swapping parts if I can assure myself that the problem can be fixed that way.

BTW, Nothings overclocked, and I was using the old version of MemTest, gonna get the new one now and burn it (memtest86.COM's last update was Mar/11/2004, .ORG was Feb.. ? I'll try this one though), then do the stick swaps. Thanks a bunch, sir. I'm also using Corsairs' "higher-end" RAM, but no time have I ever owned Corsair RAM that worked, so much for rock solid performance here.

I'll keep you all posted!

[Paleo Pete]

BSOD problems aren't always related to RAM. Could also be bad hard drive, or corrupted data, application or driver acting up, (more likely driver) or a combination of reasons. It's not easy to troubleshoot BSOD problems, because of the number of things that can cause it, both hardware and software.

What OS you're using would be good to know, and what's running at start up. You might also try resetting BIOS defaults, running in Safe Mode, shutting down everything possible that runs at start up...

[bigwayne]

Ohh Paleo I know, *rests arm on Paleo's shoulder* there are no certainties in the BSOD biz, part of this I've just recently begun to realize.

To the point, I'm running Windows XP Professional. I don't have anything running at startup but Norton AV (If a product needs something to run at startup to properly function, I don't need the product that bad. Norton is the exception to that rule). As far as the RAM settings are concerned, I've set them back to stock defaults for the MemTests, setting my entire BIOS back to defaults wouldn't work as the proc isn't recognized lest I set the FSB, configure the machine to work with my SATA, and disable that stupid LAN PARTY logo. But, since my last post I've learned quite a bit about NVidia and their penchant for shipping horrible, unstable drivers. This is brought up because to make the computer mess up, I have to be running a game, which is impossible in Safe Mode. Let me endulge a bit on what Paleo is saying, since hes quite right in this regard, and I think everyone needs to know what this is, that this thread might help the poor fool like me who was suckered into thinking this was his RAM (faults in non-paged areas very well might be, it led me to that assumption, but there were other factors in that). Here goes.

After this post this thread might turn into a driver issue, in which case if its not fixed I'll close this and reopen in the Video/Drivers arena. I'll search the forums in a bit, but this is what I've uncovered about my BSOD's, (one of my instances allowed me to look at it for more than a fraction of a second before rebooting): My error was a Page Fault in Non-Paged Area, and was caused by NV4_DISP.DLL (I knew that was my vid drivers, but I had to make sure). I've looked around and in some older model cards, using non-new drivers, (2x and 3x series) people have been having this issue, and there hasn't been a known fix for it. Apparently there are many causes (one being the RAM voltage, mines currently 2.6v, Malcore said something about 2.8v, which I'll see if my RAM is safe to handle then try that next, after reinstalling my vid card), but two instances of which (one being found on Microsofts site), state that its a driver issue, currupted or faulty drivers are the culprit. I've since reinstalled and will test these promptly, afterwards the voltages. The only concern I will have if drivers are the reason, is why would this occur ONLY when I put in new RAM? That just doesn't make since, because theres nothing wrong with the RAM physically. This only leaves voltages, which I hope and pray are the reason, and would let me breathe a great sigh of relief when this is all done and over with.

I'll check back later, thanks again Paleo and Malcore for the great advice, its nice to know there is help, you do good work.

[bigwayne]

The Saga Continues...

My oh my. I tried the drivers, and for a few hours there everything worked fine (Morrowind, Counter-Strike, Star Wars Galaxies). Then I flip my machine off to go to bed, thinking a job well done. I get up later, flip the box on, and Windows wants me to enter Safe Mode because it failed to start up. I'm like "wtf mate", go into Windows normally. When I begin to type my password, it BSOD's (not nv4_disp, didn't even give me a dll this time, just STOP: x0000008e and a bunch of other addresses). I restart, thinking and hoping its a fluke. I enter Counter-Strike, and before I sign in, my machine BSOD's again (different memory ranges). Restart, this time I overclock the RAM to 2.70v (up from 2.6), get to loading the game, BSOD. I overclock it to 2.8 (far as I want to go, I don't know *what* its doing to my RAM, if anything). Same. Set the CAS Latency lower (2.5 from 3, stock for the sticks, and as high as my mobo allows), I played for a little bit, but BSOD, this time it said PAGE_FAULT_IN_NON_PAGED_AREA... YOU_GOT_BONED. Well, you get my idea. So here I am back to square one. No clue how to fix this stuff. I've tried setting my AGP Aperture up to 512MB, fat chance it'll work. Keep you posted.

[edit] Nope, thats not it...

[tweeky]

I had this problem a few months ago and it seems to be a faulty dll. The dll is called NV4_DISP.DLL. The error is also known as 0x0000008E (0XC0000005, 0XBFA6EEE4, 0XBA8151374, 0X00000000)

The solution is simple update your driver. Below is a link that will tell you all you need to know about this problem.

Stop Error (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=325730)

[bigwayne]

Seems you didn't read the thread in its entirety, I've seen that before, and tacked it onto the things I need to try. Thanks a bunch though, least you looked.

As a matter of fact it was a combination of two things:
1. Video Card was trying to write to Memory that wasn't free or Windows was using, and wasn't allowed to swap it to the disk.
2. My drivers were, in fact, currupted.

After the reinstall of the drivers, I set my BIOS back to its original settings when it didn't start up that first time, FORGETTING to check "Video RAM Cacheable". That was the reason the BSOD's were happening after the fact.

Consider the thread closed :) Its allllll good now :)

Thanks to Malcore, Paleo Pete, and Tweeky at the last minute there :) for all your help in clearing this up, as much fun as this was, I don't want to be posting new threads here for a loooong time :)

[Paleo Pete]

Glad you got it cleared up, I was looking up info on the Page Fault error message and found this:

Every RAM module has a memory controller on-board. The memory controller tells the computer how to talk to it, and sometimes, another memory module doesn't talk the same way that the other module does, thus the system gets confused since it is getting mixed signals on which way to talk to the RAM.

Which pointed back to memory again...so we were hitting the edges of it all along, video cacheing is part of the Windows memory scheme, and everybody was thinking memory problem...and the memory settings in BIOS can make you think you have bad memory pretty easy if they're not quite right. Things like the CAS setting can be especially troublesome...

Oh and if it had turned into a driver issue, it would have been fine to leave it here, since it's still the same problem. No need to open a new thread...

[bigwayne]

Just when you thought it was safe to play games... THEEEYY'RE BAAACCCCK!

BSOD City here at my house. Now I'm completely clueless, and I'm at wits end now. Its not specifying a DLL this time, and its happening when I do anything visual (flash animations, casual browsing online). I've tried everyones advice, and right now all signs point to I'm screwed for the 2nd year in a row.

Whats different is they're VERY spaced apart. I can play a game for one hour-2 hours without a blue screen. This is a big improvement over the 50 seconds-5 minutes I was getting before. BTW, doublechecked and the CAS timings are stock where they should be, I've even tried overclocking a bit (I can't underclock, voltage is as low as it'll go, and my CAS is 3.0, as high as my mobo allows) with consequences. Good thing is, when its screwed up in the BIOS it tells me by BSOD'ing during startup.

Allwell, thanks again. I'm prolly gonna sell my box for parts and buy a Dell... and mourn as a HUGE part of my pride dies.

[malcore]

FORGETTING to check "Video RAM Cacheable"

Does that mean you set this to enabled or disabled?

Any BIOS caching options should be disbled for stability reasons, BIOS shadowing, BIOS caching, Video ram caching...all disabled. Also disable any Spread Spectrum settings, again for stability reasons.

I'm beginning to feel it's not necessarily bad RAM here.

What about IRQ settings? Are they all set for the BIOS to manage?

I'll have to download the manual for your board from DFI and have a look-see.

DO NOT GIVE UP!!! Don't go the DELL route! We'll figure this out.;)

[bigwayne]

I set Video Caching to Enabled and the problem went away for a bit there. I'll turn it off now. (BIOS Caching was never enabled). And now that I think about it I never had Video Caching on to begin with, I just recently flipped it on.

All IRQs are handled by the BIOS, and Windows doesn't detect any conflicts.

The whole Dell thing wasn't meant to scare anyone, but when I was just starting to feel good about this it spat in my face, and I was getting kind of defeated :)

Also, if you're beginning to think its not bad RAM here you're not the only one, I said before that I've been having the same issues with this for 2 years now, any time I try to get new RAM. Since then my machine has totally changed hardware 2 times, and I think its a matter of me not configuring SOMETHING right. I also moved my RAM over to the 1/2 slots, disabling Dual Channel mode, no avail. I've also tried using just one stick at a time in games, same thing.

Just to give you some clues to go on when you're thinking about this. I on the other hand can't right now, I've got lots and lots of work to do and my boss of sorts isn't happy that I'm spending my time on forums instead of helping him. (My dad and I are putting in a suspended ceiling and when I'm here I'm not helping him :)

Well, I'll let that info soak in your collective brains for a little while, I'll check back after I'm done.

[Paleo Pete]

OK...Is the CPU overclocked? If so undo it. Set BNIOS defaults, re-check CPU settings to make sure it's running the right speed, and hard drive settings to make sure it sees them right.

I have to disagree with malcore on the cache settings though, I've never had any problems at all enabling video or BIOS cache, but I don't usually enable video memory cache. Just BIOS and video BIOS, both internal and external cache settings enabled (CPU). That's how I have this machie set and it's solid as they get.

CPU Internal and External cache- enabled.
Video BIOS cache - enabled
System BIOS Cache - enabled
Video RAM Cache - disabled
Video Pallette snoop - ALWAYS DISABLED
Spread spectrum - can't remember, disabled I think, haven't looked in a looong time...this machine's been up and running over a year without being touched. Except to clean the dust out...I don't even reboot more than once a month...I think the record for this box is 3 months and some change...

I think timing settings is more likely to be causing trouble than cacheing. That's where resetting BIOS defaults can make your day. Try Optimal or Performance defaults, recheck CPU and hard drives and go from there. If that still has trouble, try fail-safe defauls. If that's the only way to get it to run right, I'd say it's a hardware problem.

[bigwayne]

Nothings overclocked, and I'm running with minimal BIOS changes, only my boot order and fsb are set, everything else is stock (no caching of any kind, pal snoop off, spread spectrum is off too (heh, even if I wanted to, the only options I get are Off, 0.5%, and 1.0%, whatever THAT means). Heres the down to earth lowdown on my settings:

EVERYTHINGS DEFAULT! OPTIMAL! NO OVERCLOCKS! NO CHANCES TAKEN!

Not to mention MemTest86 resets my BIOS whenever I hit ESC to restart, that is if I don't remember to just reset. (anyone else have that issue? its just something I've hated, nothing serious)

"I'd say its a hardware problem"... A very astute observation, as if my years doing this mean nothing until the mod confirms it. I was going to have a long speech in here about probability and some equations with variabes representing ram and other hardware, but I'd just rather simmer down first before trying to explain this again... I hope its a timing issue, ooh, new BSOD stop msg btw:

DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_ EQUAL (mean anything to you gurus?)

Malcore on the other hand, whenever my computers BSOD'd and I could see it, always said to disable any BIOS shadowing or caching, so maybe disabling it is just removing one possible variable that could bring my computer down, something generic and "just accepted" troubleshooting. Good call there. I'm going to try and play some games with my old ram and see if it works. I'll check back later.

[malcore]

Well, of course we don't want to disable the CPU cache, but as for bios caching we are talking about an nforce2 chipset here and the extra boost of enabling bios caching is unnoticeable and can lead to stability problems, much like having AGP sideband addressing or AGP fastwrites enabled when using today's high end video cards. They are (almost) obsolete settings and can introduce instability.

I agree with Pete on the resetting of the BIOS to defaults or optimal settings (though I believe you have done this already, and have mentioned there is no overclocking here). That board has a very advanced BIOS with a multitude of settings, some of which I have never come across before.

Let's go back to some more basic ideas. Your power supply has not been addressed nor has heat. What brand of Power supply are you using and what is its rated output? What are your temperatures like?

Also, what was the order in which you installed all of your drivers. Did you install the nvidia chipset drivers first, right after installing Windows, followed by video drivers and then sound drivers? When you reinstalled drivers did you uninstall first?

Hehe, sorry if these are inane questions, just want to know all bases have been covered.;)

[bigwayne]

Its all good Malcore, so long as we keep offering suggestions that I haven't done before, I'll be good :)

Anyway! My power supply is an Antec TruePower 550Watt (linkage (http://www.antec-inc.com/us/pro_details_powerSupply.php?ProdID=20550)). The surface temp of the PSU (components side) is 78 degrees fer (infrared laser temp reader, not just for breakfast anymore). Temp on my chipset is 80, inside temp is 85, CPU is 101-106 (min to max load). I think you can see I don't mess around when I do this, this machine was built to run stable, I don't overclock - ever, I like my warranties :)

AGP Side-band Addressing I've tried to enable, but the cpu-z and the AGP Settings in the NVidia settings all say the OS has side-band addressing off, and the BIOS has it on (BIOS has no setting for SBA), wherever you'd turn that on :/. Allwell, I figured there was a reason you didn't do it, so I left that almost a year ago.

I turned off AGP Fast Writes, lets see if that works. (I hate having unrepeatable errors, I just have to take em as I get em).

[malcore]

This is what I would do at this stage, and I know it's not the greatest thing to hear.

First, inspect the motherboard closely, with special attention to the capacitors, any bulging or leaking, the board is shot (unlikely though).

I keep going back and forth on this, hardware, software, hardware, software. Your last BSOD message suggests a device driver requesting too high or too low a memory address.

SOOOO, I would (unfortunately) update the BIOS if there is an update. Reformat and reinstall Windows and use the chipset drivers from nvidia's website, version 3.13. Skip the IDE SW drivers at set up for now and just let it use the native Window's drivers. Install the most recent 50 series drivers for the video card.

I don't know what else you have in there in the way of PCI cards, sound cards etc, but updated or WHQL drivers may be an idea, or even switching the slots in which the devices are located.

Edit- Another thought is to disable any devices in the BIOS which you are not using, Serial Ports, Parallel Ports, USB, wake on lan , wake on keyboard, etc.

[bigwayne]

Wow, its as if a gypsy told you that tedious hardware swapping and losing all my projects and application configurations would be annoying!

After I stop laughing, I'll start backing up my source and other files I need. Does it even MATTER that my old ram works fine in this box? never had a problem with it? I dunno, whatever :(

I want to try a few things before reformatting. If a cap is bad I can replace that, wouldn't be the first time (bad voltage regulator on an early series MSI mobo took down 2 cpus and 2 sets of ram before I caught it). I'll tell you when I get ready to do this, if I have to go that far.

BTW, thinking back, I installed drivers in this order:
Chipset, Video, TV Tuner. Everything else was installed at Windows install.

Well, let me know if you think of anything before I reformat, I'll be checking here regularly (shortcut on the desktop :P).

Catch y'all later.

[malcore]

Does it even MATTER that my old ram works fine in this box

Hehe, well yes, it does or would to me! I guess I missed that point.

Your old RAM functions without ANY problems? Well, the answer for me would be to use the old RAM.;)

Did I really miss all that? This machine worked flawlessly until you updated the RAM? :p

EDIT- I hate to say this too, but I'm on an ASUS nforce2 board using the exact RAM you have Corsair Twinx 1024 3200LLPT and it runs flawlessly. I did have a problem at first with a couple of BSODs when I used my TV Tuner, but I switched PCI slots and have never looked back.

[bigwayne]

Not a dang one, sir. I'd love to use the old RAM too, but its cheap and/or faulty RAM (not stable but factory certified for PC3200 speeds). As much as I trust its reliability, I don't want to be using PC2700 forever, but for the time being I guess its a short-term solution.

Your computer working, while a kick-in-the-pants for me, isn't entirely unique in its working flawlessly... My friends machine, perfectly identical to mine, works fine with this RAM and his RAM (also identical make/model to my own).

I'm sorry you missed the bit about my old stuff working, but you never catch it all sometimes, not to mention that I'm not as eloquent in the descriptions of my problems as I'd like to be... :(

[malcore]

I don't really have any more suggestions for you. If you do the reformat/reinstall, let us know the turnout.

Corsair has a forum also. The Ram Guy (http://www.houseofhelp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=128) can be pretty good and can help with any RMA for defective product.


Just FYI- More information on the Video BIOS Cachable option:

From rojak's pot (http://www.rojakpot.com/default.aspx?location=7&var1=18)

This BIOS feature aims to further boost the performance of a shadowed video BIOS by caching it using the processor's Level 2 cache. It works in conjunction with Video BIOS Shadowing and is only valid when Video BIOS Shadowing feature is enabled.

If this BIOS feature is enabled, a 32KB block of the video BIOS from C0000h-C7FFFh will be cached by the processor's Level 2 cache. This greatly speeds up subsequent consecutive accesses to the video BIOS.

If this BIOS feature is disabled, the video BIOS will not be cached. The video BIOS will be read from the system memory (if it has been shadowed) or directly from the BIOS chip.

However, caching the video BIOS does not necessarily translate into better system performance. First of all, modern operating systems like Microsoft Windows XP do not need to use the video BIOS. They bypass the BIOS completely and use the graphics card's driver instead. Therefore, absolutely no benefit can be realized by caching the BIOS.

And unlike system memory which can be a gigabyte or more, the processor's L2 cache is a limited resource. Diverting such a large portion of the L2 cache for the purpose of caching the video BIOS will deprive the processor of L2 cache for its own data. Consequently, there will be a significant deterioration in processor performance whenever the video BIOS is cached.

As with the Video BIOS Shadowing feature, Flash ROM upgrades should not be attempted if the video BIOS is cached. If the video BIOS is cached, any attempt at flashing the video BIOS will likely result in a system crash. Worse of all, since only 32KB of the video BIOS is cached, the end result is usually a corrupted video BIOS.

Of course, caching the video BIOS will theoretically provide a significant boost in real-mode DOS games or certain operating systems in fail-safe mode. However, the loss of the processor's L2 cache will negate any performance advantage gained by caching the video BIOS.

Therefore, it is recommended that you disable Video BIOS Caching, even if you play a lot of real-mode DOS games or work with operating systems running in fail-safe mode.

So, turn it off!

[bigwayne]

I've still got a couple of long-shots left until the big F. Keep you posted, thanks for your help

[malcore]

Another thing I completely missed is that you sometimes aren't seeing the entire error message before the machine reboots.

To remedy this, right click My Computer > Properties , hit the Advanced tab and then the Settings button in the bottom section for Startup and Recovery. Under System Failure uncheck Automatically Restart, OK.

While you are in the Advanced tab click on Error Reporting and tick Disable Error Reports and put a check on But notify me when critical errors occur.

At least this way you will be able to study the entire message when you get a BSOD.

[bigwayne]

Yea I thought I had that disabled, I flipped it off a few days ago. Thanks :)

Now games aren't staying stable at all! Sometimes they won't even launch without getting errors. I don't know what the hell is going on but it seems to be getting worse by the day.

"Tell him about the Twinkie." "... What ABOUT the Twinkie?"

[malcore]

I know nothing about Twinkies. Out of my league there.

Sometimes with long threads like this all the info gets mixed up. So let's clear the road so anyone else who might have some insight can have a clearer picture. Correct me on any of these points.

1. Your machine was working fine, absolutely no problems until you changed the RAM. Nothing else was changed. Same hard drive, same moherboard, same cpu, same power supply, same case, etc, etc.

2. You have tested the new RAM thoroughly with memtest86 and all is ok.

3. You reinstalled video drivers. It helped briefly, but problems returned.

4. Nothing is overclocked, everything at stock settings.

5. Problem is repeated BSODs with varying error messages. Mostly when playing games or video related tasks. Sometimes while online.

6. You have tried your old RAM again and it works fine.

Is this all accurate?

[bigwayne]

The twinkie reference is a line from Ghostbusters, when Egon was measuring the current amount of psychokinetic energy in the New York area.

Very accurate. And if reading that, and it sounds confusing, then you know where I am right now.

Good news though, I might have a temporary solution to my madness. My friend (identical computer) brought his box over today, we swapped memory, and right away he started having the same issues I was having.

So, if I can extend that a bit, it seems NewEgg and/or Corsair have sent me ****ty RAM *3* times in a *row*. I've RMA'd it, and am never buying memory from Corsair again.

Added, the RAM still tests ok in MemTest86.

[malcore]

Well, I hope you get some decent PC3200 to replace, or will you stay with the old RAM?

Your friend bought his RAM a a good while ago? I did as well. Rev. 1.1. The Rev. 1.1 Twinx 3200LL RAM from Corsair used the coveted Winbond BH5 chips. Rev.1.2 used the lesser CH5 chips. Unfortunately Winbond discontinued the manufacturing of BH5 chips.

The future seems to be DDR2 using BGA chips instead of TSOP.

If getting new RAM as replacement, what choice did you make?

Hope it all works out at any rate.

[bigwayne]

My friends RAM is Rev 1.1, mine was like, 3.x or something to that effect.

I've decided to go with OCZ, I hear they make quality stuff, and *really* low timings too.

Thanks for your help. I hope I don't have to revive this thread when my new stuff gets here. :)

[aaava]

Hey all:

This thread was *so* helpful to me. I too was getting STOP 50 and 8E BSODs. And it was so random at first, and because I was in the process of installing VS.NET 2K5 and all these M$ tools on my server, it was even more confusing as to what was happening.

Then I tried to install W2K3 Ent Server and all heck broke loose. I spent a day (that's right 12 hours) installing, deep formatting, reinstalling, attempting to fix, you name it of various W2K3 Servers.

I finally decided to just purchase another server, since I'd had *SO* many problems with M$ OSs and compatibility in the past. I have to add, My RedHat Linux, 10.1 Server runs fast as heck, with an ancient box (Pentium 2!) and 512MB RAM.

But M$ is a nightmare. And so I reinstalled W2K Advanced Server and the install went fine. Then I found this thread. And I realize the reason W2K install ok is:

1. Either it never had to use more than the first 512MB of RAM to install it, and hence this is the bad RAM (Editted. Not Corsair, But Kingston 'Value' Memory (DDR)), or
2. I was just lucky...the RAM decided to cooperate a bit.

But, I switched out the RAM with Kingston and am now able to install W2K3 stuff no problem.

If you do a search on Windows 2003 server x00000050, you'll get like 4 messages in google. Normally this means, 'fahgedaboudit', since so many people will ask a question on a forum, and either never get a response or it will turn into a 'I know more than you do' waste of time, or the person who has the problem, figures it out and never returns to the forum to explain exactly what the problem was *AND* how he fixed it.

So I'd just like to thank you folks. If others on this forum are as diligent and helpful as you too, this is a forum I'm definitely going to bookmark!