Partitioning Software

[FrankSG]

I'll be buying some partitioning software to partition my new external hard-drive that I bought. I would probably have purchased Partition Magic since a lot of people seem to recommend it. But in Fred Langa's newsletter earlier this year, Partition Magic and Power Quest were not looked upon too favorably. Fred Langa seem to be getting very much disenchanted with them. He recommended a product called Bootit which can be downloaded at http://www.bootitng.com/. He seems to think it's better and is less expensive. Has anyone here ever used Bootit or know anything about it? Thanks.
~Frank~

[PrntRhd]

PowerQuest (and all their products) has been purchased by Symantec. Friends had recommended the Partition Magic 8.0 product, and I can recommend the product. You still have to understand how to use it like any sophisticated software product.

[Paul Komski]

If you are just setting up a new drive there are a number of much cheaper options than using PM. If you want the king of partitioning utilites at some later stage (particularly if you are manipulating drives with data on them) then get PM - which comes bundled with a few other utilities at the same time.

I'm not sure if it was with respect to Langa or some other "guru" but a similar question was asked here before. IMHO the reasons for ditching PM on that occasion were actually very obscure when the article was read closely and the true motives for the "change of heart" could well have been financial or 'sour grapes' of some sort or another. I cant find the other thread on which this question was asked though.

PS
However - I dont like the idea of just two activations at all: see http://www.mikeshardware.com/reports/powerquest-greedy/

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by Paul Komski
PS
However - I dont like the idea of just two activations at all: see http://www.mikeshardware.com/reports/powerquest-greedy/
Wow! That's totally unreasonable. I don't see how they can do something like that. If it's true, there's a word for that and it's called GREED. Since I'm working on a new drive I won't have to worry about losing data, so I may go with the one that Langa mentioned called Bootit. They let you try if free for 30 days. If you like it and buy it, it's a lot less expensive than PM. I don't remember for sure but I think it's about $29.00.

[PrntRhd]

Wow, that is harsh on Symantec's part.

[classicsoftware]

What us your OS. If it is Win2k or XP you can use the native software. If Win9X, you can hook the drive up internally and partition before placing it in the USB shell.

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by classicsoftware
What us your OS. If it is Win2k or XP you can use the native software. If Win9X, you can hook the drive up internally and partition before placing it in the USB shell.
My OS is XP Home edition. But I don't understand what you mean when you say I can hook it up internally. It's an external drive.

[classicsoftware]

Most USB drives are regular IDE drives in a case. The case can open and the drive can come out. With XP you should be able to partition it yourself.
Rt click on My computer
Choose Manage
Choose Storage
Choose Disk Management.
The drive should be there and you should be able to partition and format from there

[PrntRhd]

I agree, the drives themselves are standard stuff, but have the USB interface added as controller.

[FrankSG]

Thanks for the information about using XP's Disk Management to partition my hard-drive. I wasn't aware that it was there. It seems to work just fine. I do have one question about it thought. I will want to put DOS 6.22 on one of the partitions. But when I get into XP's Disk Management it gives me two options as far as file systems are concerned; FAT32 and NTFS. Since DOS won't run on FAT32 (or at least I don't think it will), how can I get around that. Do you know if there is a way that I can put FAT16 on one of the partitions?

[FrankSG]

I just found the answer to my question. When I made a new partition, I had the option of FAT32 or NTFS. But, when I made a logical DOS drive in one of the extended partitions, I had the option of FAT,(which I think is the FAT16), FAT32, and NTFS. I think I'm starting to catch on to it.:cool: Thanks for the information you guys gave me.

[Fruss Tray Ted]

I always like to be up-to-date with all our software and when Power(greedy)Quest offered an upgrade, I thought cool, maybe they fixed some things in the new version (like doing NTFS partitions right) and I upgraded.

Was that an upgrade within 8, or from 7 to 8? I take it if you can stand to live with an older version, you can use it to your hearts content or is the activation an online thing?

[pave_spectre]

Another option worth a look is QtParted (http://qtparted.sourceforge.net/index.en.html), which from the screen shots is obviously a Partition Magic clone and is reputed to be able to handle NTFS partition creation and resizing.

It comes as part of the System Rescue CD (http://www.sysresccd.org/index.en.php) which is a 105MB bootable CD with several other utilities including PartImage (http://www.partimage.org), a free partition imaging tool capable of network backup/restore along the line of Norton Ghost. NTFS imaging is still classed as experimental though.

I havent had a chance to test it out myself yet.

[Paul Komski]

Win2K (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=226492) (and WinXP) will prepare a FAT16 partition as long as it is less than 2GB in size. You would need to just create that partition at the start of the drive from the setup CD and then install DOS onto it before re-running WinXP setup. On the second "run" you would need to create another partition on which to install it as a dual boot option; the dual boot loading files would all reside on the first FAT16 partition but WinXP could be installed onto another "large" (primary or logical) FAT32 or NTFS on any partition on any HDD.

BTW - WinXP will only format up to a 32GB FAT32 partition - though it can be installed onto larger FAT32 partitions that have been first created using Win98/ME or other boot diskettes.

DOS would need to be installed onto the first physical partition and it would need to be the active primary partition.

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by Paul Komski
Win2K (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=226492) (and WinXP) will prepare a FAT16 partition as long as it is less than 2GB in size.
Thank you, Paul--that was my problem. I was making a partition larger than 2GB and that was the reason I couldn't find the option for FAT16. I have a couple more questions on this, but I have to leave the house now. When I get back, I'll post my questions. Have a good day.

[FrankSG]

Here's another question about partitioning. (Point 1)If I understand it right, you can only have four partitions on one drive; you can have four primary portions, or three primaries and one extended--or any combination of four. You can then put a number of logical DOS drives on the partitions. That is--like I said--if I'm understanding it right. (Point 2) Any operating system has to be on a partition--it can't be put on a logical DOS drive. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that. But, if it is correct, that means that you can only have a maximum of four different operating systems on your disk. I've heard of people who have DOS, Win3.x, Win95, Win98, Win2000 and WinXp--all on one disk. Not that I want to put on that many OSes on my disk, but what if I want to put more than four. I'm probably confuse on something that I said. Could someone clear things up for me? In other words, is it true that you can have only four partitions? And, does the OS have to be on a partition--will it not work on a logical drive? If that is so, how is it that others have put more that four OSes on the disk. :confused:

[rond36]

(point 1) You can have up to 4 primary (only 1 set active) and one extended and as many logical drives as you want limited only by the letters in the alphabet

I haven't found a use for more than 1 primary partition even if you have more then one HDD.

(point 2) DOS and Win 9X need to be on a primary partition set active but Win 2K and XP do not, they can be installed on a logical DOS drive in an extended partition as long as their boot files are on the first primary partition set active and ntldr and boot.ini redirect the boot process correctly. Linux will setup its own file system independent of the DOS file system.

I have 4 operating systems on my other computer with only 1 primary partition.

Win ME
Win XP Pro (with all the eye candy, toys, and services)
Win XP Pro (with Black Vipers REG tweak for games and minimal software)
Mandrake Linux 10.0

Win ME is the only one on a primary partitiom

[Fruss Tray Ted]

Where'd that thread go linking to the guy with 30 some odd OS'es on one computer? Guinness record I'm sure.

[Paul Komski]

My Take.

Assuming one is not modifying the mbr or using specialist drive overlay, each hdd can have up to 4 primary partitions. One of these primary partitions may be an extended partition. The reason for this is that there is only room for 4 entries in the partition tables inside the mbr.

Only one of the non-extended primary partitions may (or "should") be marked as active (in its partition table entry) and be the system partition on which the boot-loader files will reside - even if the OS itself resides on another (or boot) partition. Making a primary partition active will "normally" hide any other visible non-extended primary partitions on that hdd.

An extended partition can contain virtually ANY NUMBER of logical partitions. Normally one would not exceed the 26 available drive letters, but partitions (especially under the NT OSes) do not have to have drive letters assigned to them. You could, for example, keep PQI image files on an unlettered or hidden drive, since DI or PM can "see" them quite OK by referring to their partition numbers rather than their partition letters.

Though it is not "normal", Win9X/ME CAN BE installed on logical partitions - though there may need to be a bit of trickery especially with their partition boot sectors and how the system finds them at boot up.

And, does the OS have to be on a partition--will it not work on a logical drive?
A "logical drive" IS a partition. Leaving aside dynamic drives and other esoteric stuff, there are only two sorts of partitions; logical and primary ones. Each partition is defined by its own partition boot sector. Primary partitions are found from the mbr's partition tables and logical partitions are found as a "daisy-chain" that begins in the extended partition's boot sector.

All the MS OSes need to be installed onto a partition. Win2K/XP can be installed on the same partition as other OSes (though this is generally deprecated) however Win95/98/ME (the DOS-based OSes) cannot share a partition with another DOS-based OS. They cant share it because each use a different partition boot sector and msdos.sys file.

These DOS-based OSes can share a partition with the NT-based OSes as long as the NT-based OSes are installed after the DOS-based OS. In this situation the original boot structures are copied before being replaced - and then when a DOS-based OS is chosen from the boot options the boot loading is directed to the copy made from the original structures.

A common way to multiboot the DOS-based OSes is to install them each onto separate primary partitions but only have one of these visible and marked as active. Then either manually or by using a third party utililty such as Boot Magic select the one you want at boot up by marking it as the now active visible partition.

For those that want to play/experiment or just do some homework: Understanding Multibooting (http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/)

[FrankSG]

A "logical drive" IS a partition.
OK, Paul. That clears things up for me. I thought that a logical drive was NOT considered a partition.

[pave_spectre]

Originally posted by Fruss Tray Ted
Where'd that thread go linking to the guy with 30 some odd OS'es on one computer? Guinness record I'm sure.

You mean THIS ONE?? (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29644) :D :D

[FrankSG]

I hope you guys don't mind me bugging you with all these questions, but I hit another snag. I did some partitioning on my new hard drive and put a primary partition on it which is drive G:. I then put one extended partition with one logical drive on it. For right now, I just left the rest of the drive unallocated. I formated my primary partition (drive G:) for FAT16 because I want to put DOS 6.22 on drive G: I still have a set of the old setup disks for 6.22. But, how do I install it on my drive G:?
When I put in disk 1, I go to a DOS prompt, type SETUP and then press enter. It tells me to either press CTRL,ALT,DEL or to restart the computer with the disk in drive A:. And that's the way I used to install it when I had only drive C:--before WinXP. So when I do as instructed, I get a message that tells me that my drive isn't configured right (I have NTFS on drive C:) and to press a key to configure my drive which will delete all files. I press F1 for help and it tells me that if I have my drive partitioned and have some logical drives on it, setup will remove the logical drives, and of course deleted the files and set it up so that I have only one drive which would be drive C: So, it wants to install in on drive C: My question: Is there a way I can install it on my drive G: which I have formated for FAT16? It seems that there ought to be a way.

[Paul Komski]

DOS uses CHS values for dealing with HDD geometry. This limits the Cylinders to 1024 (or 10bits). For other reasons the maximum no. of heads is 16 and the maximum no. of sectors is 63. Each sector has 512 bytes. Thus DOS (certainly up to 6.2) can only deal with the first 1024x16x63x512=528,482,304 bytes (or 528MB); beyond this things become invisible to it.

DOS should therefore be installed on the first physical partition and never on a partition that begins beyond the 1024 cylinder (or 528MB) "barrier". The fact that modern disks and bios can use LBA makes no difference since DOS itself uses the CHS geometry and BIOS translation is of no addition.

DOS should also be installed prior to and not after WinXP. The rule of thumb is to install OSes in the historical order of their creation. If you were also going to install Win2K, for example, this should be done in the interval between the installation of DOS and of WinXP.

Use a boot floppy diskette to create a "small" primary and active FAT16 partition (a typical C drive at the start of the HDD) - having first deleted all the other partitions. Install DOS onto it. Then run the WinXP installation and create another partiton for it using the Disk Management inside the setup process.

[FrankSG]

Well--It looks like I'm out of luck. I can't but DOS on here, and it won't let me put on Win98 either. Here's my problem--when I bought this computer, it came with XP pre-installed. I didn't get an installation disk for XP. It came with System Recover on drive D: So if I remove XP, the only way I can reinstall it would be to use the System Recovery. That would take it back to the original factor setting. Last night I tried to install Win98. It gave me a message that I couldn't install Win98 with the current operating system that I have on here--or something like that. I would have to take off Win98, install DOS and then Win98. Then if I would do System Recovery, I would be back to square one. I download a partition and boot manager called BootIt. They let you try it for 30 days. Then if you like it you can pay for it. If I were more knowledgeable, maybe that utility would let me do something to help me. It does let me view the MBR, and there are some things that I can to with it--the MBR. But I don't think I want to mess with it and get things screwed up. Let me ask you one more question. Do you think I could put Linux on my other hard-drive? If so, what type of format would I use for the partition that I would put it on?

[Paul Komski]

What make/model is the PC since the proprietary "restores" all do things in different ways?

If you have a second HDD installed then why not install DOS/Win98 onto a small partition on that drive - then, as long as your BIOS setup allows it, just set IDE-1 as the boot drive instead of IDE-0.

I have limited experience of Linux having only ever installed SUSE. It seemed to take care of everything from the installation CD, without having prepared anything for it in advance, and setup a boot menu to choose from. You could perhaps install it onto the second drive on its own or after DOS/Win98.

Possibly BootPart (http://www.winimage.com/bootpart.htm) might be worth investigating but the problem of having a small fat C partition may still be problematic.

[pave_spectre]

With linux all you need is a partition of as much space as you want to use ,ready for the installation, and linux can take care of any extra partitioning and formatting.

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by classicsoftware
If Win9X, you can hook the drive up internally and partition before placing it in the USB shell.
I finally did it! Actually I didn't do it, but a friend of mine who works in the computer department in our local college came over today. He took the drive out of the case and hooked it up internally. I wasn't aware that that could be done. Thanks for the advice.