Why you should dump IE Browser

[snooker]

Written by Daniel Miessler for Lockergnome

The time has come to dump Internet Explorer. I know, I know — you may have heard the same thing before from those that think it’s cool to hate Microsoft; but I’m not one of those guys. I’m actually an MCSE and I happen to like quite a few of Microsoft’s products. Rather than lump me into the Microsoft-basher category, consider for a moment why you use the browser you use, and humor me by entertaining the notion — if even for a second — that switching to another might be worth your while.

My argument is simple: the benefits of using IE are too few - and the faults too great — to put off the adoption of an alternative any longer.
Security

Since information security is my hobby/job/obsession, this particular topic is near and dear to my heart. Just about everyone reading this has seen computers that have been beaten down with spyware - the evil junk that hijacks IE and renders a system virtually useless. How many times have you been called to a family member’s house to clean up their system? Or had to call your techie friend to come clean yours? It’s often quite awkward - the system slows to a crawl and every other mouse click conjures up some species of perverse, obscene image. What most people don’t realize, however, is that there is a very simple and powerful way to defend your system (and/or the systems of your loved ones) in one fell swoop.

Don’t use Internet Explorer.

What makes other browsers better than IE at protecting vs. spyware and other attacks? Well, it’s simple really - most other browsers don’t make it so easy to install malicious software on your system without you knowing about it. IE makes it relatively trivial through two features called ActiveX and Active Scripting. These technologies were designed specifically for the purpose of giving websites more control over a user’s computer. Unfortunately, as we have seen with exploit after exploit - that’s not always a good thing.

In addition to the spyware issues, IE in general has had a terrible track record when it comes to all types of serious security issues. For years now, it’s seemed like every time you turn around there is a new way to have your computer taken over via Internet Explorer. Put “internet explorer” and “allow an attacker to execute commands” (with the quotes) into Google and you’ll see what I mean.

In IE’s defense, many anti-Microsoft types will claim that it’s not possible to lock down IE at all. This is not true. It is possible — but if and only if you have a fair amount of technical know-how on the subject, and the time to do it. My personal view, however, is that tools such as Internet browsers should not require expertise and configuration time to be able to use them safely.
Standards

This is likely to get me in some hot water with my fellow security enthusiasts, but I find this issue to be of even more concern than that of IE’s security. The Internet works for one simple reason - everything at its core has been built on agreements that bind it together. Whether a computer is connected from California or Sri Lanka, it’s going to speak the same language and obey the same rules - the rules defined by standards. If this weren’t the case there would be no Internet at all. These agreements are forged by a body of people whose goal is nothing short of designing a better and more efficient Internet for everyone. Microsoft, for some odd reason, seems bent on breaking stride with these agreed-upon standards. Case in point: the next time you’re in a bookstore, head over to the technology section and pick up a book on XHTML or CSS. These are two major web standards that deal with how web pages are displayed to users, and within any book on the subjects you will find one common theme:

The absolute worst browser when it comes to supporting the standards is Internet Explorer.

Page after page in these books will reveal features supported in other browsers, but not in IE. Ask yourself why a company would choose not to support standards that benefit everyone? The way I see it, it’s for precisely one of two reasons — either they are unable to, or they don’t want to. Given the fact that they are a multi-billion dollar company (one of the richest on the planet), I can’t help but lean toward the second option. Without going into too much detail (See Longhorn), they have their own plans, and those plans involve implementing their own standard and forcing it upon the world. Call me a geek/hippie, but the idea of a multi-billion dollar corporation snubbing its nose at agreed-upon standards is nothing short of infuriating.
Options

Lucky for us, we have alternatives. The good news is that the alternative browsers are actually as good or better than IE. There are many out there, but in my opinion the Mozilla products are the best. I personally prefer and recommend Mozilla Firefox. Not only does it keep your browsing sessions a lot more secure and spyware-free, but it also supports the standards religiously and has a wide range of powerful features. Arguably the biggest benefit to using a Mozilla-based product is something called tabbed browsing. What this allows you to do is have multiple pages open within a single browser window. Rather than going from window to window in the taskbar, you can simply switch between clearly visible tabs, all within the same view. You can even do this and many other commands via the keyboard if you are into that sort of thing.

Using Firefox will not require any major shift in your daily browsing habits. It’ll import your favorites automatically, and you can benefit from the improved security starting the first time you open it. With the popup blocking enabled, you can breath quite a bit easier when browsing to unknown sites. Attempts to install garbage on your system that could have easily succeeded if you were using IE will simply be ignored by Firefox. Plus, the whole time you’re browsing you’ll know that you are doing your part to keep the soul of the Internet alive by choosing to use a browser whose developers actually care about standards.

Of course, I still use IE. (pause for effect) …it’s how I get my Windows security updates. : Seriously though - Windows Update is a must, and it only works in IE, so that in itself is a good reason to fire up IE once in a while. Aside from Windows Update though, there is still the occasional site that I go to that doesn’t look right in any other browser. Those sites, by the way, are all the more reason to not use IE. They weren’t written according to the standards, and they look bad in any browser other than IE as a result of that fact. Using IE all the time just because the occasional site is designed so poorly as to look like crap in other browsers is utterly bad form. I implore you not to give into this temptation.
Wrapping It Up

So, in closing, I leave you with two thoughts:
Due to the combination of ActiveX, scripting, and its integration with the Windows operating system, Internet Explorer is more vulnerable to attack than many other browsers.
The designers of Internet Explorer have purposely turned their back on the standards designed to benefit the Internet as a whole. They have done this for years, continue to do it today, and appear to have nothing but their own interests at heart.

I ask that you consider these points and pull down a copy of Firefox, Opera, or another alternative browser. Run it for a week and see how it feels. As mentioned above, I personally recommend Firefox due to its excellent development team and large user base. Once you have had some time to get to know your new onramp to the web, I think you’ll find that you’ll wish you had switched sooner. No longer will you have to worry about garbage clogging up your system because of your browser, or having to make a mad rush for a patch every time an IE vulnerability is released.

Finally, and most importantly - spread the word. It’s time now for us to put alternative browsers on the map and let it be known that we are aware of our choices. We need not settle for what we are being fed when there are better, more secure alternatives out there.

If you have any questions, feel my position is flawed, or would just like to give some feedback, I can be reached at daniel@dmiessler.com.

[Variable]

Wow, You know I have been thinking of dumping IE. I know a lot of people who don't use it. I always figured it is what everyone uses so it's good practice for fixing errors on other peoples systems. I think Im gonna give firefox a try unless anyone has a better suggestion on a browser alternative.

[PrntRhd]

I recommend Firefox version 0.8 wholeheartedly.
Opera is another good choice.

[Sylvander]

Well, I decided to give Mozilla Firefox V0.9 a try, so:
1. I downloaded the installation file to a CD-RW disk and copied it to C:\00tmp [my temp folder from which I install all progs].
2. Restarted in "msconfig" "Diagnostic Mode" [I install everything in this mode so there will be nothing running in the background].
3. Ran the installation file. A problem was reported with the VGA driver. I've never had this problem reported before. Decided to run it in Windows proper, so re-started in "Normal Startup".
4. In Windows I closed down all programs running in the background and ran the install file. The installation completed, but the IE Explorer favourites etc would not import.
5. Ran Mozilla and changed it to my default browser. It seemed rather slow, took a long time to load a web page, and looked more "primitive" than IE Explorer. "Favourites" was missing, so I tried to import them again, but it was "Not Responding".
6. Decided to uninstall using "Add/Remove Programs". It was reported that the installation folder had not deleted and there were still some files inside. I gave the OK to delete them all.
7. Tried to use the desktop shortcut to go to the PC Guide and got a warning that "Firefox" could not be found. Well of course not! Obviously the registry had not been returned to its pre-installation state.
8. Re-formatted the C: drive and restored a backup made 3 days before.
That returned my software to exactly the state it was in before the Mozilla install, and that's where I am now.

Not a very successful exercise. :(

[Abbadon]

Originally posted by Sylvander

7. Tried to use the desktop shortcut to go to the PC Guide and got a warning that "Firefox" could not be found. Well of course not! Obviously the registry had not been returned to its pre-installation state.
8. Re-formatted the C: drive and restored a backup made 3 days before.
That returned my software to exactly the state it was in before the Mozilla install, and that's where I am now.


Did you try setting ie as default browser again? That should have helped with "7.", thus making "8." unnessecairy.

I'm sorry the experience was a bad one, Mozilla has been my default browser for some time now with just one minor hitch in the beginnen. Can't say anything bad about it :cool:

[Variable]

:)

Sylvander, you can back up your system state, including your registry with windows backup under scheduled tasks. This would mitigate the need for formatting because there is a simple error in the registry. You should try it.

[Steve]

Hi snooker,

Thanks for that article. I couldn't agree more. Now a days, using Internet Explorer is like walking around Baghdad with a bullseye on your back. Somebody is bound to get you.

I've installed Firefox on more than 30 computers this year without problems. But I've been using the 0.8 version.

Sylvander, I'm not sure why you had problems. If you just download it to your desktop and install it you might have better results.

[PrntRhd]

Sylvander,
I am perplexed by the bad install you experienced.
I recommended version 0.8 because it is a known, stable entity even while I experiment with the newer 0.9.
You need to delete files/registry entries:
Mozilla
Firefox
Phoenix (not BIOS files)
Firebird
before reloading any other version.

The Windows installer loads the browser into a "Mozilla Firefox" folder by default. You can load several versions if you change the name on the folder for each version to the version the folder contains.

The browser will appear very rudimentary on initial installation until Extensions are added to add functionality, and Themes to change the appearance.

[Variable]

OK, seeing as how Sylvander had so much trouble (and my penchant for looking for that kind of thing,) I downloaded and installed Firefox, the first download was corrupted, when I ran the .exe it failed. I downloaded it again and ran it and it worked like a champ, pulled in all my favorites and is MUCH faster than IE when pulling up my web pages. I hope the security is as good.

Variable

[PrntRhd]

Variable,

You do want to load Spywareblaster 3.1 as it has protections for Firefox included, as well as protections for IE.
What extensions/themes did you try in Firefox?

:)

[Sylvander]

Hi all.
First of all, I found the whole process fairly routine. :)
It just didn't work. :(
Normally I have no problem installing programs, I always use the same method and they always work. :D

"Did you try setting IE as default browser again?"
No, I took this as a symptom that the registry [for one] had not been returned to its pre-install condition.
I take no risks.
If the software isn't back as it used to be, I re-format and re-store a backup.
I find that quite simple, and that way I know everything is back as it was.

"you can back up your system state, including your registry with windows backup under scheduled tasks"
I run Windows 98.
You're thinking of XP, yes?
Does XP back up system program files as well as configuration files?
I know exactly what is backed up using my own method, because I choose the folders and files.

"This would mitigate the need for formatting because there is a simple error in the registry."
I find formatting REALLY EASY, and so is restoring a backup.
I go do something else while it is being restored and I come back to a fixed software setup.
The great thing about restoring the whole C: drive [my C: drive holds only the Program Files & Windows folders] is that there can be no mismatch between the program files and their configuration settings.
And after the restore none of "My Documents", emails, Address Book, Favourites etc jump back [because they are off the C: drive], so they are right up-to-the-minute.

"If you just download it to your desktop and install it you might have better results."
I can't see why "C:\Windows\Desktop" would be a better install folder than "C:\00tmp"? Obviously "Firefox" didn't like the basic VGA video driver it encountered in "msconfig" "Diagnostic Mode". Another thing it may not have dealt with well is the fact that I re-homed my "Favourites" etc on the D: drive.

"You need to delete files/registry entries:
Mozilla
Firefox
Phoenix (not BIOS files)
Firebird
before reloading any other version."
This was my 1st installation, so no need for that, and since I've now restored the pre-install software setup, there will once again be no files or registry entries for Firefox. I might have a 2nd try with version 0.8.

I have IE Spyad registry settings installed and wondered what effect those would have.

[PrntRhd]

I have IE Spyad registry settings installed and wondered what effect those would have.

I am running Spywareblaster and IE Spyads with latest updates for each, no problems.

:confused:

[Variable]

PrntRhd Im currently using google bar and adblock and DOM inspector im using the theme Noia 2.0. I havnt found spyblaster on Mozilla web site.
Two things, when posting URL's here I notice that the windows doesnt automatically do word wrap, the end of the line if far to the right of normal IE browser. Another thing is the back button doesn't seem to like to work as much. Hitting "back" many times does nothing, even after coming from a google page.

Sylvander windows backup for the system state (ME?, 2k and XP do this) is for the core of the OS but, you can backup whatever you want. I said this because you mentioned the corrupt registry. I havn't used 98 in some time and most machines I see usually have 2k or xp on it BUT, when I did, I used Ghost a lot. 98 needs to be reinstalled regularly because it is easily corrupted. I used to install a clean setup and snap an image with ghost and put it on a solo partition near the end of the drive. If things were corrupted I would just re-image, formmating isn't necessary because the original disc is over written with a new FAT i.e. no pointers to the old data. good explanation of what Format does is here Link (http://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+format+do+on+a+hard+drive&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

Variable

[PrntRhd]

Variable,
I posted the "back" button problem in the thread here (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=30333) . It is only happening in 0.9 build.

You can find Spywareblaster 3.1
here (http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html).

Sylvander,
I know your restoration will be clean, just wanted to post removal tip for less advanced users so they won't be caught in a corrupted profiles loop.

[Variable]

Spyware blaster says that I do not have Mozilla installed ;p
Most likely it is looking on the C: drive for installations and I don't install programs to C:
I think spyblaster is headed for the Recycle Bin.

Do you think the back button will be fixed for Mozilla soon? Seems like a pretty major bug ;p

[PrntRhd]

I guess it just isn't my day, Spywareblaster works fine here, the Mozilla portion affects tracking cookies, and I am using both on C partition. You could report the problem you are having to Javacool and they are responsive to your needs, even have done personal builds to fix bugs!

I would submit/vote the "back" bug in the support forum for firefox.
It is annoying as heck to me. Right now I am using 0.8 as primary browser.
:p

[Variable]

Ahh no worries, I like it, but for me the Back button is a big deal. You would think that if the .8 version is the most stable it would be the download that is advertised on there page. But you see "DOWNLOAD NOW" and its .9.

I use peerguardian and it doesn't allow a lot of web sites to even access my machine. I don't allow java or scripting, except on trusted sites. I don't normally have any spyware, tracking cookies are not a big deal, especially if the company wanting to view the cookies have no access to my machine ;p

[PrntRhd]

I have no experience with peerguardian, but it sounds like a decent proggy.
I think 0.9 was released with a few bugs more than I had expected.

[malcore]

I haven't noticed any new bugs with 0.9. However, I use extra mouse buttons to go back and forward, and I don't use spywareblaster or IESpyads or any similar program. I'm also just using the default theme. Am using a few extensions though.

I like 0.9 and have it set as default and have uninstalled 0.8. ;)

[PrntRhd]

I have a Logitech MX700 mouse with the forward/back buttons, but I did not notice if it had the "back one page" issue I experienced with the browser itself.
I guess I will try another 0.9 download and see.

Edit: Reloaded 0.9. Seems faster than last time, maybe some corruption or fixes incuded since earlier this week.
:p

[Bumstedmans]

www.opera.com- Best internet browser, hands down

Theres been alota talk lately over how IE is probablly the worst browser on the market... I couldnt agree more. Opera provides a fast, tab-based browser that's available on platforms i've never even heard of, heck, it'll run on your phone.

The Tabed browser is an advantage that I think blows most out of the water, no more cluttered taskbar.

Why would anybody use anything else, I cant find a reason to.

-The Bumstedman

[PrntRhd]

Firefox IS tabbed browser IF you prefer that. It is flexible.

[jabarnutcase]

Funny, I thought of starting a poll last week called "What Browser do you use and why"- (or something like that).

Anyway, I decided not too. Although, to my knowledge, there hasn't been a poll like that here before.

I'm using Firefox 0.8 but still use IE too.
With all the paranoia about IE, I NEVER have any problems due to my surfing habits, security settings, various programs you are all familiar with, keeping updated with patches, and both Software and Hardware (Router) firewalls.

Furthermore, as much as I like Firefox, obviously it's not without bugs. I'm looking forward to the 1.0 release and beyond when it gets here.

I know what you're thinking..."he still uses IE and is talking about bugs".
Personally, I find IE is still about the most stable browser out there. And another pet peeve I have when I'm using Firefox is the fact that I've yet to find a Spellchecker that works 100% of the time the way IESpell does. (I LOVE that Program, especially when browsing Forums).
The Spellcheckers I've tried with Firefox have caused the Browser to freeze more than once.

I have used Opera too, but not crazy about the adds in the free version.
Many of you will think I'm nuts, (well heck, you already knew that anyway) :p , but I'll continue to use IE at times because I actually LIKE IT.

I do however really like the tabbed browsing that Opera...and yes, Firefox offer. And the number of ways Firefox can be customized is really cool.

Still, with all the bashing IE gets. (And in some cases rightfully so), I will continue to use it. Besides that, it's yet to crash my Computer like Firefox has more than once....especially when experimenting with certain plugins.

Yikes! Enough out of me. More comments to come I'm sure. :rolleyes: :p

[Mark Miller]

No need to flame this but I still like ie the best.
Have had no problems or hijacks, lucky I guess
Mark:D

[jabarnutcase]

There's nothing wrong with liking IE the best Mark!

Don't forget, we're both members of the "Bill Gates Rules" club!
Let em' say what they will! :D ;)

[PrntRhd]

Sure, let's ignore the first post.
or not

[Mark Miller]

Hi PrntRd,
Ya gotta understand, me and the Jab are charter members in "the evil empire"
Ms Rules
Mark:D

[Abbadon]

In all fairness, I use IE myself sometimes, because some sites just don't work with other browser, and admitedly, IE can be fast, stable and secure, provided you do 3 things:

1) get the updates / patches
2) get more updates / patches
3) make sure you have all the latest updates / patches

Since most people don't do this, they're surfing with a piece of crud and get tons of crapware & crashes at random.

If they put tabbed browsing in IE, I might start using it full time, it's realy the only (big) difference that makes me really love Mozilla/firefox.

[jabarnutcase]

Yes!
In fact, Bill was over for Dinner tonight. We had a delicious cut of Mozilla on the Grill.
Afterward, we thought of going out to the Opera, but decided it would be boring.......settled down and watched a good Movie on Windows Media Player instead. :p

(Edit) Got in there just before me Abbadon. Some good points! And...If they put tabbed browsing in IE, I might start using it full time, it's realy the only (big) difference that makes me really love Mozilla/firefox. I couldn't agree more! ;)

[jabarnutcase]

Bump....(On the head again).
I really hate it when that happens. :rolleyes:

[Mark Miller]

Yeah, having a tab feature on ie would be great, but I am so used to how I surf that I probably wouldn't use it the right way.


That's what happens when you get a little older and develop crs
Mark:D

[jlreich]

You got me interested. I installed Firefox 0.9 about an hour ago. No problems installing or importing bookmarks or anything else. :)

First thing I noticed when opening it was the web pages loaded slower than I would have liked. :( With IE, the webpage usually just pops up and everything is there.

I will continue to play around with it. But I don't pay $45 a month for a cable connection just to sit around and wait for web pages to load.

I do like some things about it though. Tabbed browsing and such. Security is definitely a major plus. I will take another spin around the block, kick the tires... :)

[Fruss Tray Ted]

Well an old dog such as myself has just tried FireFox 0.8 today since this thread's start. It's cool but I have lots of questions about it that, with a few days will iron out most of them. Then maybe a pile of questions for the proper forum.

The tabs are a pain so far, because I am used to multiple pages open in IE and I close any one of them when done. I have closed FireFox a bunch of times inside of a few hours, thinking the previous window would still be underneath. Give me the multiple windows in the taskbar back! ARRGGHH!

There's many more quirks that I either will need to find a way to tweak or just get used to. But for now it is fun, like driving someone else's car for a day or two. Knowing the likelyhood of an 'accident' (hijacking, virus etc) is less likely, well that's a calming feeling in itself. Even my scroll wheel on my mouse doesn't act the same as it does in IE when in this reply page. In a way it works better, something more to get used to...

I may try a few other browsers soon, maybe even the Linux crowd, I didn't know the browsers were so closely related and was ever so hesitant to give them a try in the past. Now I know there's nothing to worry about. I think I'll try out a Hummer next, for some offroading... :)

I still like IE but it's akin to driving down a bad section of town in nothing more than a Jeep with no doors and the top down. Sure, it'll go anywhere, but anyone can hop in and if it rains, well, it pours... :eek:

[jlreich]

I don't know very much about programming. So let me ask a question.

Are these alternative browsers actually more secure, or is just a matter of the scumware makers targeting Microsoft and not bothering with the less popular browsers??

[Bumstedmans]

Yeah, having a tab feature on ie would be great, but I am so used to how I surf that I probably wouldn't use it the right way.

When I first heard about opera I was kinda skeptical about the need for tabbed browser windows, but after a while of using opera, firefox, or any other browser with a tabbed interface, your browsing habits really do change. For instance, now, when I am doing research on a new gadget that I want to buy, I end up having at least 9 browser windows open because then, I can hold onto pages that I may want to look back on in a short period of time without having to bookmark the page.

While I was using IE, having even 6 browser windows open in 1280x1024 res. while listening to music, and browsing windows explorer, my taskbar would be so filled up, i could barely make out which tab was which. Bottom line: tabs come in handy.

-The Bumstedman

[Fruss Tray Ted]

So far, all I've tried is importing 'My Favorites' into 'BookMarks'. Problem is, it can only load them all (which is 20 or more), and not only the ones I want at any one time. Something I already knowe how to deal with in IE. With 20 or more icons of mostly the same shape like http://edocs.bea.com/workshop/docs81/doc/en/workshop/images/jspicon.gif can also get quite confusing.

I also need to add some hyperlinks or other open pages to the tabs if possible DURING my session! As I said, maybe it'll take a day or two for me to find all the knobs, buttons and 'Tickle Me Elmo's'... :D

[Variable]

Well now that I know I can use the dusty back buttons on my mouse that fixes a problem I had with Firefox. I don't know why other people think it is slow, for me it is faster than IE.

[jlreich]

I like the popup blocker. I went to a site that I know is bad for popups and not even one got thru. :cool:

Things are still a bit slow, but I think I can deal with it for a while.


FTT, I guess even Hummers have some drawbacks. :rolleyes:

Also there is an extension that will "iconolize" your bookmarks.

[pop pop]

Back in the day I refused to use IE but I've been using it for a while now. I downloaded and installed Firebird 0.9 and it looks fine and is quick enough. It needs some plug ins and stronger encryption. I guess I do that on the same site?

[PrntRhd]

Link to extensions is in Tools, they download and you close/open firefox to load some of them.

Plugins can be tricky but you can find help in the 3 buttons:
Firefox Help
Firefox Support
Plug in FAQ

:)

[Paul Komski]

Are these alternative browsers actually more secure
YES. The one fundamental difference is that these alternative browsers don't use ActiveX controls (though one can get a Netscape plugin to enable them for that browser) which are by far and away the biggest security flaw.

Having them enabled is like allowing random websites to run executables on your computer so, depending on your surfing habits, dont be surprised if you get hijacked using IE on sites of unknown secure or trusted status - even if you use spywareblaster. Nor is it simple to disable all ActiveX controls in IE (particularly for the usually non-visible MyComputer Zone).

[jlreich]

Thanks Paul, that answers my question.

Here is another. Does not using ActiveX limit the browsers capabilities?

[pave_spectre]

Does not using ActiveX limit the browsers capabilities?

Some website may not display properly, the same way if you didn't have flash or java plugins.

[jlreich]

Thanks Pave, makes sense. I am starting to like it more. Just a matter of security vs. convenience. I am definitely into both. But then again, there is not much convenience if you get plagued with crapware. ;)

[Mark Miller]

Guys, I got a question. As i said i have used ie from day 1 and my security settings are on medium. I use flash and Active x upon request. Yet I have had no problems and really no crapware [I do use spy-bot and ad-aware plus a soft and hard firewall and of course and up to date anti-virus].
What's the problem? I can understand convience of tabs but none [and I tried most] seem faster or better.
Mark
:confused:

[Paul Komski]

Mark - sounds like you don't spend much time on porn or warez sites or reach them and other dodgey entities from links in search engines or questionable eMails.

[malcore]

Mark, you like IE, and nobody will change your mind. Everyone has their preferences.

But just for so. Firefox, for example.

No ActiveX, no prompts for it, no warnings that it is disabled.

Tabs, covered.;)

Security, no need for spywareblaster, IESpyads, etc. Spybot and Adaware have become obsolete for me since using Firefox.

No need for third party popup blocking.

Much more customizable than IE, ie browser layout.

Extensions. Ability to replace annoying blinking Flash items with a button you can press if you wish to view it. No prompting. Ad Blocking, if you choose. Image nuking. etc, etc.

Themes, skinning.

Some find it faster, others don't. I find it is faster (slightly).

Standards compliance.

Open source.

But, like I said, everyone has their preferences. If you like IE, stick with it.:)

[Mark Miller]

Thanks Malcore,
One more question, if it does not use Active X, what happens when a site with it comes up?
pardon the newbie question:D

[malcore]

Well, nothing really. You won't miss out on any content on a page.

What will happen, is you won't be able to download or execute ANY activeX controls, both good and bad ones. For instance, WindowsUpdate cannot scan your computer. Online virus scans like TrendMicro's will not be able to load and execute. But neither will Gator or GAIN. You won't even be asked.

So, even if one changes to another browser, if they wish to use WindowsUpdate, etc. to scan their computer, they will have to use IE for that.

[Mark Miller]

So that would be the case for a site like pc pitsop or some of the tools on dsl reports?
Mark
Actually Ernie I don't do porn, but I have been really lucky with my e-mail [I think my isp uses very strong filters] and anything I have caught has been really easy to get rid of.

[malcore]

I'm not sure about PCPitstop, maybe. Never go there. DSLreports, I believe they use HTML and Java applets. Firefox is Java capable.

[Mark Miller]

Thanks Mal,
I might give Firefox a try.
Mark:)

[malcore]

You're welcome.

Yeah, give it a go. But give it a good chance. Any time you change software to do the same job it requires an adjustment.

If you have any questions or need a bit of help configuring, just start a thread. More than happy to help if I can. Others as well.:)

[Mark Miller]

Hey Mal, just an update, I just downloaded it and am typing this on firefox now. Very easy to use and no problems at all. Print is a little different but every thing else is fine. Cool to have two browsers. One thing I miss is the ie spell checker [free download]. Is there one avaialable for Firefox?
Mark

[Sylvander]

I've just installed "Opera Free version 7.51".

It's more impressive than Firefox.
Looks better when installing.
Works better when installing.
Everything went like clockwork, no problems.
Ran it and imported IE Explorer Favourites without trouble.
The bookmarks list looks like the kiddy version of IE Explorer Favourites.
What a fantastic range of options available.
Everything you could ever want and then some!
For a short time there the adverts were flashing away and I thought I'd never live with that, but now it's static and that I don't mind.
Very colourful, and I imagine having great fun exploring it's multi-various settings.
Not so businesslike as IE Explorer.
I haven't made Opera my default browser just yet. :D

I'm running both side-by-side at the moment, which is rather nice, but the Opera browser isn't displaying this page properly.
Only the text shows properly, the icons etc are not.
Aha, managed to fix that. The toolbars use more space than IE.
Impressive though, definitely impressive.

[Quantax]

I just installed Firefox 0.9 and it easily passed an acid test which Internet Explorer fails AT LEAST half the time I try it-----printing. With I.E., all too often the margins get cut off on the right side and I wind up having to manually print in the missing letters. One case in point is http://michaelstevenstech.com.

[jabarnutcase]

If text is cut off the right side of the page when printing with IE, there are two options:

1. Reduce the left and right margins.
Select "Page Setup" from the File Menu
Change left and right margins to .25
Click OK

2. Print in Landscape mode.
Select print from the File Menu
From the print Dialog box, select Properties or Page setup
In the orientation section of the Page setup select Landscape Mode.

And Sylvander...I agree. I think Opera at this point is a much more stable and better refined Browser than Firefox. As I stated earlier, I kind of like the "feel" of Firefox better and it is certainly a bit less bloated than Opera, but I'm hoping that the 1.0 release is a heck of a lot better bug wise. (The adds in Opera "bug" me a little too)

And if you think Firefox won't freeze or Crash your Computer, just play around a little more or look around the Mozilla Forums. (Or look around here for that matter!)

Don't get me wrong....I USE FIREFOX. I just think they still have a lot to iron out whereas both IE and Opera are very stable and have passed the test of time.

Again, I have ActiveX disabled in IE and I practice safe Surfing Habits and follow other strict security measures.
I have NEVER had a problem with IE and I still think it's a very good Browser. It's also more customizable than a lot of people think. (Certainly not as much so as Firefox or Opera, but there are a lot of "tweaks" some people probably don't know about).

However, each to his own I say! ;)

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by jabarnutcase
Funny, I thought of starting a poll last week called "What Browser do you use and why"- (or something like that).


I checked the site meter on my web-site and it was broken down as follows:
Internet Explorer 6.x 89%
Internet Explorer 5.x 5%
Netscape 5.x 3%
Konqueror 3.x 2%
Netscape 4.x 1%
The above figures do not, of course, mean that IE is a better browser. It just means that a lot more people are using it. I suppose that most might feel the same way as I do; I've been using IE for so long that I just hate to go through the hassle of learning all the ins and outs of a new one. I do get my updates on a regular basis and I frequently do a scan for spy-ware.

[PrntRhd]

Opera is starting fairly light and going toward more features, e-mail clients, now VOIP (Internet phone calls).

Firefox is really light, likely to stay that way.

Mozilla is full featured, more like where Opera is headed.

Read this one, Microsoft stating IE is the most secure browser just this Feb: zdnet (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/security/0,39020375,39146084,00.htm)
The big problem is Longhorn is being pushed back and the problems in core code for IE are going to be really exposed for 2 years more.

[Mark Miller]

I think the problem [which I am sure has been said] is that MS is the 800 pound gorilla making them an easier and more worthwhile target.
If Apple or Mozilla were bigger they would be hit also.
Ms is now going the other way from being all things to all people to tightening up their security and making people pay attention
IMHO

[malcore]

I think that is a fallacy Mark, and an easy excuse for Microsoft's laxity when it comes to security. Mozilla and Opera do not rely upon ActiveX and active scripting like IE, which are inherently not secure.

Yes, Microsoft is starting to tighten security, beginning with SP2. But it is not Microsoft making people finally pay attention, it is Microsoft finally paying attention to the problem of security.

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by Mark Miller
I think the problem [which I am sure has been said] is that MS is the 800 pound gorilla making them an easier and more worthwhile target.
If Apple or Mozilla were bigger they would be hit also.
IMHO
I think that says it all. The bigger they are--the better the target...

[Mark Miller]

I disagree to a point. Before broadband you were not such a sitting duck as today. I know most people don't have it yet, but enough do to make the spread of this stuff much quicker.
Also it seems everyone and everything is now on line one way or another.
I remember in the early 90's the only way you really had any chance of catching a virus was by a someone giving you a bad floppy disc.
In some ways it's like driving a car, once you know the rules and practice safe driving, you have a good chance of being fine.
Same thing with computers, too many people are not safe and have not bothered to learn certain rules.
Yes, MS could have been more proactive but I think lots of their warnings were ignored anyway.
By the way I got firefox tools and stuff down to 2 lines.
Thanks, Mark

[malcore]

I hope you're not trying to say the internet has advanced too quickly for Microsoft to stay caught up? :D j/k

I agree user ignorance is a definite problem. While there is some truth to a bigger target being more likely to be hit, I don't think it's accurate to to use this as the main reason that IE is considered such an insecure browser.

[PrntRhd]

I don't feel 187 patches (so far) makes IE proved more secure, 4 more exploits surfaced this month without patches to stop them.

Edit:
I DO use IE 6.0, because I have to use it for some applications such as iNotes, I just minimize the useage to lower my risks as a user.

[Mark Miller]

Guys,
I'll leave this with that we agree to disagree.
Where's Jab when I need him?;) ;)

[PrntRhd]

Having lunch with Bill, discussing the interesting router.

[Mark Miller]

True, true
I forgot:)

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by PrntRhd
Having lunch with Bill, discussing the interesting router.
Is he buying--or will it be separate checks?

[jabarnutcase]

Well, Bill and I discussed the problem over lunch...(just as you had surmised PrntRhd), and Bill finally admitted to me after several Martinis that it may not be the Router at all, but rather that Security nightmare of his they call Internet Explorer.

He has assured me that measures will be taken to correct the problem. (Of course, after a few Martinis he may not even remember our conversation).

And yes Frank....Bill stuck me with the Bill.

(EDIT) Yikes! Sorry folks. Wrong thread. Thought I was HERE (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=30457) . :eek:
(Hey, it happens you know? I mean I hate to see a Billionaire drink alone)

Well as long as I'm here, rest assured Mark that Bill and I are still the best of friends and I still like his Browser. He just darn well better pay for lunch next time. (I mean the Roast Penguin wasn't too expensive, but the Martinis were killing me!)

[Mark Miller]

Hey Jab,
Don't worry, a few of these threads are crossing back and forth. It's part of CRS
Mark;)

[PrntRhd]

Well, Bill and I discussed the problem over lunch..
Jabar,
Are you sure it was Bill Gates and not William Shatner, particularly after having you pick up the tab?

[jabarnutcase]

I'm quite sure it was Bill Gates.
Funny you should mention Shatner though. The whole time we were eating, some guy kept calling him on his Cell Phone.
He would always start the conversation: "Kirk to Enterprise". I just assumed when he said "Enterprise", he was talking about Microsoft.

I'll tell you one thing though as long as we're on the subject.
Back when I first met Bill gates he was just some scrawny little Geek playing around in his garage.....that's the last time I'll ever tell someone to "Live long and prosper".
The guy actually took me seriously. :rolleyes:

[FrankSG]

Originally posted by jabarnutcase
The whole time we were eating, some guy kept calling him on his Cell Phone.

Actually, jab, that was me who kept calling Bill. He asked me not to use my real name because the last time I did that, he said people kept bugging him to get my autograph for them.:)

[jabarnutcase]

So that was you!
Glad that mystery is finally solved.....I appreciate you being Frank with me. :p :D

[PrntRhd]

Qute theme has updated, remove old version and do new download for 0.9, it has horizontal seperations to look like 0.8 default theme again. I prefer that look.

[Mark Miller]

Hi PrntRhd,
Besides the change in look is there any other reason to uninstall and reinstall? Will it make firefox more stable [which for me has been quite good]?
Thanks, Mark

[PrntRhd]

Not Firefox, just the theme Qute. It just looks better to the eye.

By the way, I figured out what the "back issue" was. I was going to Tools, Options, Privacy and clearing cookies, history, cache...this made it forget homepage when I went to a new site without closing/opening the Firefox application. Duh

:D

[Mark Miller]

Thanks,
by the way firefox is working very well for me and I have added chrome and moved things around as Malcore suggested
Waiting for final version, but to tell ya the truth I really doubt that I will drop ie until they get a spell checker that works.
I have already asked [with a lot of other folks] on the mozila forum site, which I also joined to learn more about what the hell I was doing
Malcore and PrntRhd, thanks for the encouragement and the patience.
Mark:)

[PrntRhd]

Mark,

Microsoft's IE integration makes it very difficult to delete IE, that is not the issue anyway, most users need IE for Windows Update. The issue is deliberately lessening risks from it's use either by changing Active-X settings or by limiting exposure on the Web by using an alternate browser when possible which helps keep bad things from happening to your PC. It really doesn't matter if it is Firefox or Opera or Mozilla, they are all good alternatives.
CERT is now recommending removing IE Active-X for business networks on the web as part of suggested Best Practices.


:)

[jabarnutcase]

Mark...just in case it somehow got lost in this now rather lengthy thread, I DO USE Firefox and in fact I like it too. (I just can't help but be a troublemaker sometimes- not that I didn't mean what I've said).

I just feel it's a bit "buggy" and look forward to future releases. But that doesn't stop me one bit from "playing" with it.

And PrntRhd- I think when Mark talked about "dropping" ie, he meant as far as using it as his primary Browser. Because you are certainly right. Removing it completely would be quite a task! :p

And then of course as you mentioned, there is always Windows Update...(among other things). ;) :D

(Edit) A little side note here. I wonder if "snooker" had any idea that he would create a thread that so far has 80 replies. He's since disappeared from the face of the earth....still only one post. Just who was that masked man??? :D

[Mark Miller]

Either the Lone Ranger or Zorro.
You were right in your observation, I did mean as my primary browser.
The evil empire lives
Long live the evil empire
Mark:)

[PrntRhd]

Risk vs rewards: see this re IE safety: zdnet (http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5247187.html?tag=zdfd.newsfeed)

[Mark Miller]

PrntRhd, how's it going.
Check this bulletin on MS.
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS04-011.mspx#top
Is it for the same problem?
thanks Mark

[PrntRhd]

Nope.
This time, however, the flaws affect every user of Internet Explorer, because Microsoft has not yet released a patch. Moreover, the infectious Web sites are not just those of minor companies inhabiting the backwaters of the Web, but major companies, including some banks, said Brent Houlahan, chief technology officer of NetSec.

and
Late Thursday, Microsoft advised customers to increase their browser security to the highest settings, although that could cause some Web site functions to stop working.

[PrntRhd]

A quick update: yahoo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1804&ncid=738&e=6&u=/washpost/20040625/tc_washpost/a5524_2004jun25)

The attack on webservers running Microsoft IIS infected them with hostile code, users who go to the sites with IE get infected with keyloggers, etc.
The flaw is not patched yet.

[Mark Miller]

Back to firefox for a minute. I am beginining to notice that it loads sites much slower than either opera or ie. also my homepage is rendered differently [I am sure this a javascript deal even though I have the plug-in on firefox.
Mark
this site tool a full minute and on the other browsers no time at all

[malcore]

What are your cache settings Mark?

Mozilla/Firefox render pages strictly adhering to W3C standards. Many websites are not written to W3C standards,and in fact are written and tested only for IE. IE is very forgiving of this. Mozilla/Firefox are not.

It will be slower visiting such sites, especially sites with many images to be rendered.It seems to vary for many users. On an older machine I had, Firefox was a little slower than IE. On my new machines, Firefox is faster.

Choices, choices. Thank god we have choices. :)

Still feel IE is a bad choice though.:(

[PrntRhd]

I noticed lag on this site today too, if you look to bottom bar it has site ads from tribalfusion trying to load.

[Mark Miller]

By the way, what do you guy's think of opera?
Mark

[malcore]

Opera is a great browser. Uses its own engine (Presto), is standards compliant, secure and fast. Not really just a browser anymore, more of a "suite" like Mozilla, chat client, newsgroup, mail client (M2).

It has some nice features, and was a hard choice for me to make between it and Firefox. If one could only combine the features of both, it would be the perfect browser for me.

Of course it is not free, unless the ads don't bother you, and it's not open source. Still, it's a great browser and a much better choice than IE.

[Mark Miller]

Thanks Mal,
Read this whole article about new threat seems interesting.
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,116690,tk,dn062504X,00.asp
Mark

[jabarnutcase]

I agree malcore. ;)
I really liked Opera but just can't handle the ads. There are enough Ads out there to last a lifetime. That's why I'm using Firefox as my second Browser. (And have been for quite a while).

I must say, (well, I guess I have already), that I've been using IE a lot more than Firefox....security settings very high of course and no ActiveX, but all these links you guys keep posting about new threats are really starting to "bug" me.

Cut it out!!! :p

OK...I give. For a while at least, I think I'll be using Firefox a little more than I have been. It's a zoo out there. :( :rolleyes: ;)

PS This still won't stop Bill and I from going out to Lunch once in a while though. (Yes I know, we're both already "out to lunch"). :p

[Mark Miller]

If one could just surf and not worry about their computer life coming to an end, sighhh.......
Mark:(

[jlreich]

Originally posted by PrntRhd
I noticed lag on this site today too, if you look to bottom bar it has site ads from tribalfusion trying to load.


That's what happens to me most of the time.

Usually pages load slowly the first time I come to a site, then they pick up speed and load almost as fast as IE after that. At least fast enough that it does not bother me.

[PrntRhd]

Mark,
The latest IE problem is not a widespread one at least yet, but the IE Active-X will continue to be a problem, made more difficult by the way the My Computer security zone is hidden in Windows by default.

We had a long thread from 6/02/2004 where the end user had a trojan that would send banking/password stuff to a Russian address, it may have been related to this current exploit, but we have no way to know by now. The AV was the detector that the problem existed at all. Here is the thread (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30093)

We are back to the Patch/Firewall/Updated AV theme again.

[Mark Miller]

I totally understand the point and the problem.
I am trying to get used to firefox and will stay with it till the final version, or out of beta anyway, comes out.
I practice safe computing and for the most part am very careful, but for me to even enjoy using the net anymore I have taken off anything I think would cause me harm in the wrong hands.
Any info that is still here, well so be it.
I spend too much time, as I am sure we all do, worrying about this stuff.
My other hobby is playing golf and I got very anal about that also and then just told myself to relax and enjoy.
With as many precautions as possible, I think that's what I will do with surfing the net also
Mark

[PrntRhd]

I agree, that is why Paul Komski was talking about backing up the system so he can surf with more freedom.
I can take some risks with my setup now, a great feeling, no paranoia.
Knowledge is power.

:D :D

[Mark Miller]

Paul and you have the right idea, I've done this too.
One thing I have noticed also with firefox is it is not set up to really work with active pages. What I mean that some sites, including msn have content that keeps changing every few seconds if you have broadband. Does not happen for firefox and I have all the flash, and java extensions. Again not a big deal but something that needs to be worked on.
Mark

[PrntRhd]

Try loading this extension if Firefox 0.9:
ReloadEvery 0.3

It should renew the tab, keeps it current.

[Mark Miller]

Thanks, but I tried it and very good for scores but not for main page stuff that msn or even aol has that changes the healines and pictures or that you can move along yourself.
Mark:(

[Killer XP]

Hi snooker,

Switching to Mozilla Firefox from Internet Explorer
Mozilla Firefox

Firefox is attracting huge attention due to its good webpage rendering engine, security, and handy features. It is also easy to personalise with extensions and themes.

* Very Standards compliant - Based on Gecko engine.
* Tabbed browsing, one-click-downloading and integrated Google search all standard.
* Open source
* Very secure
* Extensions - Countless add on features can be downloaded
* Themes - You can personalise your Firefox by downloading themes
* Easy to use and intuitive
* Good accessibility

The reasons why you should switch over to Firefox browser.

1) Standards compliance. If you don't design/maintain websites, then this means nothing to you. If you do, it means everything.
2) Tabbed-browsing. IE doesn't have it.
3) Popup blocking. Windows XP users who have SP2 now have it, but what about Windows 95/98/ME/NT/2000?
4) Security. Firefox will not give a malicious site the ability to run arbitrary code. IE shouldn't, but who knows? It's been exploited numerous times.
5) Extensions/Themes. There are so many extensions and themes whose functionality is not duplicated on IE, it's rediculous to try to count them. IE has no native theme support.
6) Performance. Firefox easily out-performs IE in general page rendering time on old and new hardware and interprets JavaScript much faster.
7) Privacy. Browsing history, cookies, and cache data are only stored in one place by Firefox, and when you ask Firefox to delete those files it deletes them! IE/Windows maintains your entire history and typed-urls in system-level hidden files that aren't deleted when you ask to delete them. You can't even browse to those files in Explorer.
8) Cross-platform. Firefox is compiled and tested for many hardware/OS platforms, whereas IE only works with Windows x86 machines and Apple machines running Mac OS.
9) Community-driven. Firefox is distributed by a community of developers/testers/users who take input from each other and from the current browser market. This means Firefox is always up-to-date with features that the users want. IE hasn't had a major release in something like 7 years, and is distributed commercially with only limited user feedback.
10) It's the underdog. Firefox is an underdog in the new browser wars that are beginning to emerge because of Microsoft's laziness. I just like to root for the underdog, especially when it's as awesome as the Fox.
11) The download's are easy becuse you can put the download program's and bookmark's off the internet into my documents folder with the installer icon so it will be easer to find. Also it makes it so ease to burn to on the CD install the program quicker.
12) No ActiveX controller=no code being executed from you simply being on a webpage.
13) IE = hackers paradise.
14) The tons of extensions, like Adblock, Gmail Composer, Google Preview, etc.
15) Multiple search engines. IE can't even do this without extra third party toolbars.
16) Much harder to get spyware and other stuff making your Windows install unstable, since there's no ActiveX problems, and because Firefox is a smaller target for hackers than IE.

[leejay1963]

I have been using MYIE2 web browser version 0.9.27.68 for some time now and have had no trouble with spyware whatsoever. When I was running IE 5 I used to have no end of problems... I never liked it right from the beginning anyway, something always seemed to be wrong with it!