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Donn
10-29-2004, 11:09 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6346939/?GT1=5472


Ancient hobbit-sized human species discovered
Find 'rewrites knowledge of human evolution,' scientists say

• Prehistoric dwarf bones found
Oct. 27: Scientists working on a remote Indonesian island have found the bones of what appear to be hobbitlike dwarves.

The Associated Press
Updated: 4:33 p.m. ET Oct. 27, 2004In an astonishing discovery that could rewrite the history of human evolution, scientists say they have found the skeleton of a new human species, a dwarf, marooned for eons in a tropical Lost World while modern humans rapidly colonized the rest of the planet.

The finding on a remote Indonesian island has stunned anthropologists like no other in recent memory. It is a fundamentally new creature that bears more of a resemblance to fictional, barefooted hobbits than modern humans.

Yet biologically speaking, it may have been closely related to us and perhaps even shared its caves with our ancestors.

18,000-year-old specimen
The 3-foot-tall (90-centimeter-tall) adult female skeleton found in a cave is believed 18,000 years old. It smashes the long-cherished scientific belief that our species, Homo sapiens, systematically crowded out other upright-walking human cousins beginning 160,000 years ago and that we’ve had Earth to ourselves for tens of thousands of years.

Instead, it suggests recent evolution was more complex than previously thought.

And it demonstrates that Africa, the acknowledged cradle of humanity, does not hold all the answers to persistent questions of how — and where — we came to be.

“This finding really does rewrite our knowledge of human evolution,” said Chris Stringer, who directs human origins studies at the Natural History Museum in London. “And to have them present less than 20,000 years ago is frankly astonishing.”

Shortest member of human family
Scientists called the dwarf skeleton “the most extreme” figure to be included in the extended human family. Certainly, she is the shortest.

She is the best example of a trove of fragmented bones that account for as many as seven of these primitive individuals that lived on the equatorial island of Flores, located east of Java and northwest of Australia. The mostly intact female skeleton was found in September 2003.

Scientists have named the extinct species Homo floresiensis, or Flores Man, and details appear in Thursday’s issue of the journal Nature.

The specimens’ ages range from 95,000 to 12,000 years old, meaning they lived until the threshold of recorded human history and perhaps crossed paths with the ancestors of today’s islanders.

Flores Man was hardly formidable. His grapefruit-sized brain was two-thirds smaller than ours, and closer to the brains of today’s chimpanzees and transitional prehuman species in Africa than vanished 2 million years ago.

Yet Flores Man made stone tools, lit fires and organized group hunts for meat. Bones of fish, birds and rodents found near the skeleton were charred, suggesting they were cooked.

All this suggests Flores Man lived communally and communicated effectively, perhaps even verbally.

“It is arguably the most significant discovery concerning our own genus in my lifetime,” said anthropologist Bernard Wood of George Washington University, who reviewed the research independently.

Discoveries simply “don’t get any better than that,” proclaimed Robert Foley and Marta Mirazon Lahr of Cambridge University in a written analysis.

Questions over classification
To others, the species’ baffling combination of slight dimensions and coarse features bears almost no meaningful comparison either to modern humans or to our larger, archaic cousins.


They suggest that Flores Man doesn’t belong in the genus Homo at all, even if it was a recent contemporary. But they are unsure where to classify it.

“I don’t think anybody can pigeonhole this into the very simple-minded theories of what is human,” anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz of the University of Pittsburgh. “There is no biological reason to call it Homo. We have to rethink what it is.”

For now, most researchers have been limited to examining digital photographs of the specimens. The female partial skeleton and other fragments are stored in a laboratory in Jakarta, Indonesia.

Researchers from Australia and Indonesia found the partial skeleton 13 months ago in a shallow limestone cave known as Liang Bua. The cave, which extends into a hillside for about 130 feet (40 meters), has been the subject of scientific analysis since 1964. Fenced off and patrolled by guards, it is surrounded by coffee farms.

Older stone tools and other artifacts previously found on the island suggest that Flores Man is part of a substantial archaic human lineage.

“So the 18,000-year-old skeleton cannot be some kind of ’freak’ that we just happened to stumble across,” said one of the discoverers, radiocarbon dating expert Richard G. Roberts of the University of Wollongong in Australia.

Peculiar environment
But the environment in which Flores Man lived was indeed peculiar, and scientists say it probably contributed to the specimen’s unusually small dimensions.

Millennia ago, Flores was a kind of a looking-glass world, a real-life Middle-earth inhabited by a menagerie of fantastical creatures like giant tortoises, elephants as small as ponies and rats as big as hunting dogs.

It even had a dragon, although they were giant lizards like today’s carnivorous Komodo dragons rather than the treasure-hoarding Smaug described by novelist J.R.R. Tolkien in his “Lord of the Rings” trilogy.

Artifacts suggest that a big-boned human cousin, Homo erectus, migrated from Java to Flores and other islands, perhaps by bamboo raft, nearly 1 million years ago.

Researchers suspect that Flores Man probably is a descendant of Homo erectus that was squeezed by the pressures of natural selection.

Dwarfism in nature
Nature is full of mammals — deer, squirrels and pigs, for example — living in marginal, isolated environments that gradually dwarf when food isn’t plentiful and predators aren’t threatening.

This is the first time that the evolution of dwarfism has been recorded in a human relative, said the study’s lead author, Peter Brown of the University of New England in Australia.

Just how this primitive, remnant species managed to hang on is uncertain. Inbreeding certainly would have been a danger. Geologic evidence suggests a massive volcanic eruption sealed its fate 12,000 years ago, along with other unusual island species like the dwarf elephant species, stegodon.

Now, scientists are more puzzled by the specimen’s jumble of features that appear to be borrowed from different human ancestors.

Clues from the skeleton
This much is clear: Its worn teeth and fused skull show it was an adult. The shape of the pelvis is female. The skull is wide like that of Homo erectus. But the sides are rounder and the crown traces an arc from ear to ear. The skull of Homo erectus has straight sides and a pointed crown, they said.

The lower jaw contains large, blunt teeth and roots like Australopithecus, a prehuman ancestor in Africa more than 3 million years ago. The front teeth are smaller and more like modern human teeth.

The eye sockets are big and round, but unlike other members of the Homo genus, it has hardly any chin or browline.

The rest of the skeleton looks as if it walked upright, but the pelvis and the shinbone have primitive, even apelike features.

Bones from the species’ feet and hands have not yet been found. Delicate artifacts found in the cave were described as “toy-sized” versions of stone tools made by Homo erectus. They suggest that Flores Man retained intelligence and dexterity to flake small weapons with sharp edges, even if its body shrunk over time.

“I’ve spent a sleepless night trying to figure out what to do with this thing,” said Schwartz. “It’s a mind-blower. It makes me think of nothing else in this world.”

Even more speculative is whether Flores Man met with modern humans, and what might have happened.

Folklore experts have reported persistent legends of little people living on Flores and nearby islands. Islanders called the creature “Ebu Gogo” and say it was about 3 feet tall.

Paleo Pete
10-30-2004, 01:19 AM
Did you copy & paste the entire article? Apparently the msnbc site doesn't like Firefox, or maybe doesn't like my settings. I get the picture and the short paragraph describing it, no more text at all.

I'll definitely have to dig up more info on this, I've been dabbling in Archaeology/Anthropology and Paleontology for the past 8 or 10 years. (all 3 are closely related, but still separate studies).

That's the most interesting find I'm aware of since "Kinnewick Man" a few years back in the Washington/Oregon area. That one was a caucasian male adult, chip from a stone spearpoint embedded in a hip bone that was partially calcified (healed), almost 10,000 years ago, over 8,000 years before white men were believed to have originally been on the North American continent. As a side note, I've always thought there is a very good possibility the Vikings got here long before Columbus, we just haven't found the proof yet.

More Here (http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=6658599&section=news)

And Here (http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=98342)

Donn
10-30-2004, 12:34 PM
Pete, thanks for the followup articles, I passed them on to friends. What I posted is a copy/paste of the email that was sent to me, it posts fine for me on PCG (on Internet Exploiter).

Rather startling stuff, but I have always thought that there is much more to what is called 'evolution' and 'history' than what we know so far.

I've always had this idea that the last Star Wars episode should show a multi-racial/species group of beings crash landing--stranded permanently-- on this water planet that will be shown to be 'primitive' Earth....the Woukie becomes the Yetti, etc.

Wait'll we get up on Mars and find out what's in those pyramids . . oh the stuff will hit the fan fer sher. . . really knocked me out to find out that the name of the city "Cairo" is actually the name for the planet Mars in the old language of the area. . . the Dogon people and their maps of the Sirius star system--3,000 years old. (Teeheehee)

We think we are soooooo smart, and we are. We just gotta get rid of this know-it-all-by-consumerism-based-sciences mentality.

:cool:

Mark Miller
10-30-2004, 04:10 PM
I could not believe the discovery either. It just goes to show that we really know very little of our beginnings.
Donn, I was watching a Sc-fi series the other week where just the opposite happened. We were taken by another race and spread thru the galaxy and then came back to find our "home"
Cool stuff.
Mark

Donn
10-30-2004, 06:29 PM
Right, but I cannot afford cable or I'd be glued to the SCi-Fi channel. But that's not such a strange scenario really, I mean kidnappings and capturings are really rather common place in the history of the various races of this planet. Ever read Michael Crichton's "Eaters Of The Dead?" No pun intended--a lot of food for thought there. :)

On second thought, perhaps we should consider that scenario as something that is happening already, and start looking for where we came from, and what happened to the "others". . . the pyramid on Mars, the Dogon peoples' maps, the drawings in the Aztec mausoleums (that sure look like space ship cockpits to me. . .) I smell a TV series :p

Mark Miller
10-30-2004, 06:51 PM
Don't forget the Greek Gods.
Seems like a race of people with just a little more tech. Wonder where they went and why they don't come back? Or maybe they never left.
Anyway great discovery .
Mark :)

Fruss Tray Ted
10-30-2004, 07:40 PM
I just watched a program that mentions Moses didn't go on mount Sainai but into a spaceship and when he returned to the masses with The Ten Commandments, his face was 'aglow' but didn't catch why?

Also their claim is that the people were brought here in that same mothership...

I only caught part of the show but have dreamt of similar things since childhood.

This was on the History Channel!

Mark Miller
10-30-2004, 07:49 PM
My question has always been, if we were brought here by someone else, why havn't they come back to check up on us?
Also if there are ufo's what are they waiting for?
Mark

Donn
10-30-2004, 08:09 PM
Who says they haven't? I mean just because they didn't come to me with a written report of what they want doesn't end the possiblity, and if they are...who are we to put them under our conditions. I mean perhaps theya ren't waiting, just not being obvious. Why would they have to be? Think of the great outcry against developers moving into the areas of the Amazon and the central Phillipines where 'primitive peoples' are still largely unaware of us.

Edits: And, as long as we are going to contemplate a 'shepherd people', why would we have to say they are not among us now, and always have been, just. . .not obvious, the way parents have to be with children some times. . .?

So much knowledge. . .oy, only one brain

Mark Miller
10-30-2004, 08:26 PM
I agree oy!!!
:p :p :p :p :p
And around and around we go where we stop nobody knows

Paleo Pete
10-31-2004, 01:03 AM
I knew this had to turn into an interesting thread...

I didn't see any of the Star Wars movies, so I don't know anything about the endings, but I've always thought humans could not be native to this planet, we had to come from somewhere else. What other animal is not born completely prepared to survive without clothes or shelter, except for what can be gathered together from nature, like a bird's nest?

Humans, at birth, could not survive here. The winters are too cold for skins without fur, and summers are too harsh in most geographical locations to last long, sunburn would probably necessitate a very short lifespan.

Animals, on the other hand, are born equipped with everything they need but food, which they can attain without plowing or cooking. Most have no mandatory requirement for shelter, that is more a convenience and a hiding place to protect the young from predators. Birds roost on tree limbs, rain, snow or dry. Deer curl up in tall grass or a thicket and snooze away. Many smaller animals like rabbits sleep in burrows or holes in trees, but mainly to avoid predators.

What about us humans? No fur, skin that is damaged by ultraviolet light, uncomfortable in rain and snow, and prefer food that's cooked. I've always thought that if this were our original home, we would be perfectly adapted to survival at birth, without the need for clothes or houses, fires, umbrellas, etc.

I've read some stories and theories similar to the Moses hypothesis related above, don't know how much truth there is to any of it, but some of them sound a lot more likely than the historically accepted versions taught in schools. The "chariots of fire" seen by Ezekiel in biblical times is one of the best examples I can think of. How would a wandering shepherd or simple farmer several thousand years ago describe a modern airplane if he had never seen one and had no words to convey the idea? Chariots were the common mode of transportation, so it had to be a strange kind of chariot. The exhaust of a jet engine could only be described as fire.

Take it one step further, what if Ezekiel were looking at a spacecraft, using a method of propulsion similar to our contemporary rockets that carry space shuttles? How would he describe it? In terminology familiar to him, which would have no words to describe a rocket that didn't exist in his world. Same thing would happen if he saw a modern person on a motorcycle. How would riding goggles be described? The noise of the engine? Headlights? In the early days of automobiles, cars were commonly called horseless carriages. Think about it...

And if we were "dropped off" here by an older race, why don't they come back and check up on us? What do you think UFO's are? I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out that's exactly what they are and why they are here. Books have been written that suggest just such theories. Cave drawings have been found that resemble humanoids wearing what can only be described as space suits. A crystal skull around 100,000 years old that can't be duplicated today, or can barely be, using modern technology. Beads made of very hard gemstones with holes drilled in them that we can barely duplicate today. And the other things mentioned above. How else can all that be explained?

We may never know all or even part of the answers to the questions posed by some of those items, but that's the main thing that separates us from the animals...the intelligence required to ASK those questions...I wonder how intelligent the recently discovered addition to the human species was with its smaller braincase? Dogs with even smaller brains respond to their names, and can be taught the difference between the word "sit" and the word "fetch", that's not quite human intelligence, but if a poodle with a brain that fits in a head the size of a tennis ball can be that smart, what of a humanoid with a brain 5 times that size, and a known tendency to intelligence?

Do we get into some off the wall topics here or what? :)

LadyGrey
10-31-2004, 03:55 AM
Galadriel said at the grey havens that "now comes the time for the dominion of men". Maybe they were hobbits. ;)

Mark Miller
10-31-2004, 12:30 PM
Pete,
Some good points, but as far as humans I think we evolved from the great apes.
According to scientist are dna and theirs is like 99.9 the same. The big difference was our movable thumbs and because of this the ability to record for the next generation [rock paintings, whatever].
Now this is not to say that someone or thing and placed in our heads to think of hunting cooking and so forth as shown in 2001 Space Odyssey.
Which I think might be pretty close to the way things happened.
Anyway if these guys are watching us this would be a great time to let us know before we kill ourselves and the planet.
Mark :)

Donn
10-31-2004, 03:03 PM
Pete...well said. Here is something you might want to check out in that respect:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000126-3.html

This deals with similar evidence for 'visitors' found in Japan, really marvelous and unexplainable objects and events. As far as size of brains goes. . .dolphins brains are bigger than humans, and sharks 'brains' are roughly the size of birds, sharks are capable of learning all kinds of things--check the works of Dr Sonny Gruber (and others) in Sarasota, Florida. He has trained Lemon sharks to run mazes and press levers for rewards. So size of brains big or mall doesn't impress me. Besides, look at all the humans that have human brains and that behave worse than any animal with a smaller brain. . .?

Mark: That DNA thing is interesting for sure, but I don't let it throw me because no one has established whether (not trying to be cute here) our DNA is like theirs, or their DNA is an alteration of ours. . .

As far as the movable thumb is concerned. . .otters have opposable thumbs, but they don't have both of the two things that separate us from the rest of the animals--locking knee caps which compell us to stand upright, and the connection of the spine to the base of the brain that enables us to have our vision permanently perpendicularly aligned to our posture.

I feel sorry for anyone who can look at the pic of the Palenque Stone (I couldn't find one on the net) and NOT see a man in a machine manipulating levers and dials with hands and feet, and speaking into a microphone of some kind--and that stone iconograph is from the Mayan ruins that are 3,000+ years old.

And as far as the Prophets being spacemen...who is to say? Or say not? If they were, they were; if they weren't, they weren't; if one or some of them were. . . .whatever it is, is. Who are we to say, we would seem to have our hand full just making sure we have enough clean food, clean water, and clean air. . .

so much to know, and only one brain. . . . :cool:

ps: I don't know where you all are, but we are having a beautiful fall here in Maryland, beautiful leave coloration. . . . :)

Donn
10-31-2004, 03:04 PM
Pete...well said. Here is something you might want to check out in that respect:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000126-3.html

This deals with similar evidence for 'visitors' found in Japan, really marvelous and unexplainable objects and events. As far as size of brains goes. . .dolphins brains are bigger than humans, and sharks 'brains' are roughly the size of birds, sharks are capable of learning all kinds of things--check the works of Dr Sonny Gruber (and others) in Sarasota, Florida. He has trained Lemon sharks to run mazes and press levers for rewards. So size of brains big or mall doesn't impress me. Besides, look at all the humans that have human brains and that behave worse than any animal with a smaller brain. . .?

Mark: That DNA thing is interesting for sure, but I don't let it throw me because no one has established whether (not trying to be cute here) our DNA is like theirs, or their DNA is an alteration of ours. . .

As far as the movable thumb is concerned. . .otters have opposable thumbs, but they don't have both of the two things that separate us from the rest of the animals--locking knee caps which compell us to stand upright, and the connection of the spine to the base of the brain that enables us to have our vision permanently perpendicularly aligned to our posture.

I feel sorry for anyone who can look at the pic of the Palenque Stone (I couldn't find one on the net) and NOT see a man in a machine manipulating levers and dials with hands and feet, and speaking into a microphone of some kind--and that stone iconograph is from the Mayan ruins that are 3,000+ years old.

And as far as the Prophets being spacemen...who is to say? Or say not? If they were, they were; if they weren't, they weren't; if one or some of them were. . . .whatever it is, is. Who are we to say, we would seem to have our hand full just making sure we have enough clean food, clean water, and clean air. . .

so much to know, and only one brain. . . . :cool:

ps: I don't know where you all are, but we are having a beautiful fall here in Maryland, beautiful leaf coloration. . . . :)

Mark Miller
10-31-2004, 03:24 PM
Hey Donn,
Good info, but why would standing straight or being able to see things perpendicular to our body have anything to do with intelligence or our being on top of the food chain.
with the ability to record so that future generation do not have to relearn from scratch that to me would seem to matter more.
Maybe we just have the better brain :p :p
Mark
On thinking about it I can see where standing straight would nave helped our ancestors be able to see higher up to gather food from trees and such.

Donn
10-31-2004, 03:48 PM
Mark wrote:

"Good info, but why would standing straight or being able to see things perpendicular to our body have anything to do with intelligence or our being on top of the food chain."

A good set of questions. First, I'm not meaning to convey that standing upright or the dynamics of the spinal connection to the brain has anything to do with our intelligence. I'm just saying that they are all together like that in us, and in no other life forms that we know of so far. As for that haiving something to do with us being at the top of the food chain. . .who said we are at the top of the food chain? I agree with Pete, we are not, in fact, at the top of the food chain. We are at the top of the 'growing-your-own-food food chain. Without the growing we would not be at the top of the food chain. . .something our human ancestors probably realized whent hey figured out they could eat better if they settled and grew their own food.

That would seem to have put us at the top of the 'realization chain.'

The Tofflers go over this idea somewhat in their book "the Third Wave" which, I think, has some admirable ideation in it, and some really eye opening thoughts about the future of technology -- ant-sized robots running on a micro-microphone for a power source. . .however, their idea is that the information age has come upon us now, and my contention to them is that it has always been with us, there is just more of us passing it and exchanging it faster in more reliable storage facilities.

Edits: Sounds a little like the development of agriculture, doesn't it. . .cultivating, storing, exchanging...food, knowledge-- very intimately connected, eh wot? :)

Most of psychology and psychiatry and social research says humanity is evolving TO what we 'really' are; whereas I would say, well perhaps that is part of it, but mostly what we need to do is throw off our (human) racial amnesia and start remembering what and who we ALREADY are, and where we came from--historically AND spiritually, first.

:cool:

Mark Miller
10-31-2004, 03:59 PM
This is so very cool,
What I mean by humans being on top of the food chain is that with our intelligence there is nothing on this planet that we cannot defeat. You can almost say that humans are a virus [Matrix] to the rest of our world.
I agree that we are still evolving [at least I hope so] and we are not what we can or will be.
Almost everything else on earth evolves according to their changing environment and not because of what they or it has learned from past generations [back to recording for future generations].
Our intelligence is also shown in the ability to sense a "self"
I think only a few other species can do this [Back to the great apes]
Funny thing one of the other species is some kind of parrot, forget which breed.
See ya I am going back to the Enterprise :p

Donn
10-31-2004, 04:40 PM
"What I mean by humans being on top of the food chain is that with our intelligence there is nothing on this planet that we cannot defeat."

Tell that to your friendly neighborhood force 5 tornado, catagorie 5 hurricaine,
or to the insect and microbial worlds. And actually your choice of word is interesting, Mark, in that you used the word 'defeat.' That may be the a true contradiction--we are so busy defeating everything that we refuse to realize that by doing so we are defeating ourselves...

May you live long and prosper.... :cool: