Future Proofing on a Budget

[VikingCrown]

Hello everyone, I've been cruising around these boards and people seem to be very helpful here, so I figured i'd hit you with my Digital Imaging/Future Proofed (sorta)/Budget PC.

I have a budget somewhere in the range of $ 600-700. The machine I'm looking for will primarily be for processing large digital images and the occasional game. Ideally I would like to get as many parts for this system that will be upgradable in 2 years or so, so that I don't have to build a whole new system (kinda like what's happening now).

From what I've gathered, PCI-e is the next big thing, so I'd like to have that. I don't really have a preference in Intel Vs. AMD, But I thought I read somewhere that for applications like photoshop Intel is the way to go. I don't have a problem going with onboard video and audio to start, unless it would really adversley effect the processing of the digital images.

Well, now that I have rambled on, I'll leave it to the pro's. Thank you in advance, I appreciate everyone's input.

~Brian

[saphalline]

Hmmm... PCI-E is still a high-end luxury at this point, so getting a mobo with PCI-E and a P4 to go with it will eat up a third of your budget right there. And that's with the cheap options! I don't know if you can get PCI-E under $700, but it depends on what else you have.

Do you already own some parts? Maybe a CD burner or a monitor? Do you need an OS for this machine? I agree that Intel would be a better investment for you if digital imaging is your primary use for this machine. Just give us some more starting points and we can bombard you with configs! :D

[deddard]

Welcome Aboard!

Digital Imaging requires one thing in particular - RAM, RAM and more RAM!
The graphics cards obviously play the major part in how the image is eventually perceived, but digital imaging eats the RAM because of the need for 'undo' in your image manipulation software. Basically each level of undo takes another large chunk of memory. Even running something like MS Publisher with a 120 MB file can get slow with just 512 MB RAM installed.

As Saphalline pointed out, we need some more details before being able to advise further - is the digital imaging 3d/2d? real-time video? CAD or bitmap/vector imaging using photoshop as you mentioned?

[VikingCrown]

First off, thank you for the quick responses. I do already have several parts that i can Cannibalize from my current maching. CD burner, monitor, keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner, sound card, and even video card i guess. i have a radeon 9000 128mb card. I have an OS so i'm set there too. Something else to consider, I am not building this until after christmas (so that i'm not the only one footing the bill :) )

The primary use will be photoshop and Microsoft's Digital Image Suite, My wife is heavy into Digital Scrapbooking, so we're talking about 120mb layouts. I am also an engineer, so I will be doing some CAD from home, but not too much. The only game that the machine would be used for maybe is The Sims 2, as my wife is addicted to it.

Any other questions, I'll be able to respond for the next 8 hours as I'm stuck at my desk on a dreary friday.

Thanks again,
Brian

[VikingCrown]

Anyone? Could really use some suggestions as I am going to a computer show this comming weekend and would like to compare prices there to those deals at newegg.

[saphalline]

Woah, sorry about that, haven't been on in a few days...

A P4 machine with at least 1GB RAM and plenty of power, huh? Ok, let's get to work. First of all, I'll show you the bad news. All prices from Newegg (not including shipping).

$162 - P4 520 2.8GHz retail
$149 - MSI 915P Neo2 Platinum
$256 ($128 each) - 2 x Corsair ValueSelect 512MB DDR2 PC2-4200
$133 - Gigabyte 128MB GF 6600 PCI-E x16 vid card
$128 - Seagate 200GB SATA hard drive "ST3200822AS"
$67 - Antec "PlusView1000AMG" case
$40 - ThermalTake Silent PurePower 420W PSU

TOTAL = $935

Going for PCI Express this early in the game really hurts the bank account. Having parts that you can use certainly helps, and I could have shaved off another $100 if I really worked at it, but even at $800 you're way over budget. The extra cost of the mobo and the need for a new vid card hurt the most, but DDR2 RAM isn't cheap, either! And I'm afraid that's the slowest P4 that fits into Socket T.

Forgetting about PCI-E right now will save you a lot of money...

$139 - P4C 2.4GHz retail
$75 - MSI 865PE Neo2-PFS Platinum
$142 ($71 each) - 2 x Corsair ValueSelect 512MB DDR PC3200
$128 - Seagate 200GB SATA hard drive "ST3200822AS"
$67 - Antec "PlusView1000AMG" case
$40 - ThermalTake Silent PurePower 420W PSU

TOTAL = $591

Now, the mobos in both cases are made by MSI (an excellent manufacturer) and I did this to get the best comparison possible. Both mobos have onboard SATA, 4 x RAM slots for up to 4GB max RAM, onboard Gigabit LAN, SPDIF out (optical audio), and 8 USB 2.0 slots. Obviously the more expensive 915P chipset mobo has more features, but do you really need tons of RAID options and firewire ports?

The performance between these two systems is also a bit different. The cheaper Socket 478 system doesn't have as much raw CPU power, and using your old vid card won't win it any gaming awards, but the immediate cost savings are well worth it. I also picked DDR2 RAM for the Socket T system, but you don't need it. The 915P chipset is perfectly capable of DDR, and some mobos have 2 of each RAM slot, but I say, if you're going for a new core platform go for broke! Why not enjoy DDR2 and PCI-E together?

Like I said, PCI-E is still up there in price so think carefully before spending the money on it. That said, it's easy to get caught up in saving money for the sake of saving money and not look at your upgrade options. If you can increase your budget a little, PCI-E and DDR2 are excellent investments in a P4's future.

[VikingCrown]

Ok, I see what you mean about going for broke (and I'd really like to I just have to convice the Ms. that its necessary) I was hoping to get some clarification about some of the parts.

DDR2: this is the next big thing right? Do you have to use 2 modules of RAM to get the most out of this to begin with? Or could I start with 1 512 module and then later on get a second matching one?

915p Chipset : I'm not sure I unserstand what all the types of chipsets are, 915 and 925 are the newest ones right? So does that mean that they will be compatible with the latest proecssors in say 2 years whan its time to upgrade?

P4 520 Vs. P4c : Whats the difference here?

LGA775 : what tyoe of upgradibility will this afford me in say 2 years when I'm looking to get a new processor?

I know that noone has a crystal ball and can predict the future of what's comming, but I'm just looking for best guesses here. Also what effect (if any) do you think buying 3 months from now will have on these prices? Thank you for the responses, I am finding this to be an enlightning exchange as I am learning tons of stuff I never knew!

~Brian

[saphalline]

DDR2: Yes, this is the next big thing. Honestly, current production of DDR2 hasn't been perfected, so performance is less than stellar. However, as the manufacturers get better, DDR2 performance should far exceed DDR performance. And yes, you can certainly start with just one stick of RAM, but the P4's bus architecture is designed for dual-channel RAM. And besides, with what you want to use this new system for, I don't think RAM is the best place to cut back.

i915P chipset: This chipset is cheaper and gives you more RAM options than the more upscale i925X chipset. Remember, with the 915P, you can get a mobo with both DDR and DDR2 RAM slots, so that's one area where you can cut money. Other features of this new chipset - PCI-E x16 for vid cards, 4 x PCI-E x1 for expansion cards, Gigabit LAN built-in, and 4 x SATA ports standard. Will it support CPUs two years down the road? Yes and no. It won't support the latest must-have CPUs two years from now, but you'll definitely be able to upgrade to a more powerful CPU. More on that below.

P4 comparison: The difference in the two P4 cores are moot for most people. The older Socket 478 P4 "Northwood C" uses a 0.13 micron process, the original 20-stage NetBurst architecture, and has hyper-threading. The new LGA 775 CPUs all use the "Prescott" core, which has a 0.09 micron process (90nm), uses a newer 31-stage NetBurst architecture, and has improved hyper-threading, for what it's worth. The main difference really comes down to chipset support. The best CPU for the older i865PE chipset is the P4C, while the newer 915/925 chipsets only support Prescott.

LGA 775: The newest Socket T interface from Intel will be used for the next few years, maybe even into the release of the Pentium 5 (don't hold your breath, tho!). As I mentioned above, you won't have any trouble finding a CPU upgrade two years from now if you go for a mobo based on the i915P chipset. While these first-gen 900 series chipsets won't support the 1066MHz FSB, Intel won't be fully moving to that until much later. For now, 800MHz FSB is just fine. CPUs that will be available for LGA 775 in the near future include more P4 5xx series up to 4GHz+, P4 6xx series which have 2MB L2 cache and EM64T support, more budget Celeron D releases which use the slower 533MHz FSB, and an as-yet unnamed dual-core version slated for release in late 2005 with dual 1MB L2 caches and EM64T support but oddly no hyper-threading. In short, you can buy that P4 520 2.8GHz CPU now and be able to upgrade to a CPU with 2-3 times as much power by the end of 2005. And it should work on your mobo, maybe requiring a BIOS update at the most.

Things I recommend to cut initial costs - go with a smaller hard drive. I picked a 200GB one just for the heck of it, but 160GB ones are less than $100. Go with a mobo that supports both DDR and DDR2, so you can buy DDR today and upgrade to DDR2 when it comes down in price. The only downside to that is that you're limited to 2 RAM slots each, and 2GB is your max RAM limit. The biggest thing you can do, however, is look into getting a mobo based on the i915G chipset. This chipset has all the features of the i915P but also has onboard video. This will save you money on a new PCI-E vid card (saves you $133 right there!) and still leaves you with a PCI-E x16 slot for a future vid card upgrade. I don't have time right now to look for mobos with this chipset, but I'll get to it eventually. :p Just thought I'd mention these tips because the LGA 775/PCI-E config is just barely above your budget. And I do think that waiting until, say, Feb or later will also bring down prices quite a bit (tho I can't say how much as I lack that crystal ball you mentioned).

Ok, gotta go. Happy hunting! :D

[VikingCrown]

Ok, after Christmas update: the budget has gone up to about 1000$ . . . I'm still looking for upgradibility in the future, so this is what i've come up with. opinions?
http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishHistoryReview.asp?position=HISTORY&submit=VIEW&ID=1190184

[jlreich]

If you are not set on the LCD monitor, you could save about $140 by getting a 17" CRT monitor. You could use that cash to upgrade the mobo($48 more). Giving you the 925 chipset and up to 4GB of dual channel DDR2. Getting 2X512 DDR2 pc4200($82 more). For a total of $130, still saving you about $10. Giving you more power now, and upgrade options later. One thing, have you considered the S&H costs? I would guess it to be around $70.

I am sure Saphalline will have more suggestions.

------------------------------

MSI "925X NEO PLATINUM 7053-010" 925X Chipset Motherboard For Intel LGA 775 CPU -RETAIL
**This item is warranted through the product manufacturer only. what's this?


- Specifications -

Supported CPU: LGA775 Pentium 4(HT) Processors
Chipset: i925X+ICH6R
FSB: 800/533MHz
RAM: 4x DIMM for Dual Channel DDR2 400/533 (Intel PAT) Max 4GB
Slots: 1x PCI-Ex16, 2x PCI-Ex1, 3x PCI
Ports: 2x PS/2,1x LPT,1x COM,8x USB2.0(Rear 4),1x 1394,2x RJ45,1x SPDIF Out,Audio Ports
IDE: 1x ATA 100 up to 2 Devices, 2x ATA 133 up to 4 Devices by VIA 6410 with RAID 0/1/0+1
SATA/RAID: 4x SATA with RAID 0/1
Onboard Audio: CMI9880L 8-CH
Onboard LAN: Broadcom BCM5751 GbE, Intel 82562EX 10/100M
Onboard 1394: 1x 1394
Form Factor: ATX

-----------------

CORSAIR VALUESELECT Kit 240-Pin 1GB(2 x 512MB) DDR2 PC2-4200, Model VS1GBKIT533D2 - Retail
Manufacturer:

CORSAIR
Speed: DDR2-533(PC2-4200)
Type: 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM
Error Checking: Non-ECC
Registered/Unbuffered: Unbuffered
Cas Latency: 4
Support Voltage: 1.8V
Organization: two 64M x 64-Bit
Bandwidth: 4.2GB/s
Warranty: Lifetime

[saphalline]

A few things here...

First of all, spend the extra $9 and get the retail version of that Samsung DVD burner. Not only will you get the retail extras (another IDE cable never hurts!) but you'll also get the full warranty from Samsung (1-year? 2? can't remember). I know, I know, what's a warranty, right? ;) Believe me, the first time you ignore it is when you'll need it!

Secondly, I like my 19" monitor! :D Mine is also just a cheap, non-flat screen, shadow mask 19" CRT. But you know what? I'd rather have mine than my friend's flat screen, Triniton tube, aperture-grille 17" CRT any day! The extra screen real estate is very nice to have for productivity, and I can play games at 1280 x 1024 at 85Hz! :cool:

Thirdly, that mobo isn't the best choice if you're buying new sticks of DDR2 with it. I suggest moving up to MSI's 915P Neo2 Platinum (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-130-461&depa=1) for $147. Same RAID options as the MSI mobo you listed, but adds firewire and has the full 4 slots for DDR2 RAM.

Now you better start ordering before that sale on the RAM expires!! :eek: