I just don't get it

[scylla]

:rolleyes: Probably a real newb question, but here goes. I've been searching newegg for a cpu as my first purchase towards my first pc build and I've noticed amd processors have lower ghz than pentiums, yet the amd reviewers say their processor knocks the socks off higher ghz pentiums. Is this just brand loyalty, or does intel and amd use different measurements for speed? BTW I have a 2.8 p4 and I would hate to buy a faster p4 if an amd, say 2.3, would be faster than a p4 3.0 or above.

[saphalline]

Well...

AMD's processors are essentially more powerful per clock. They have a higher average IPC and shorter pipeline length. The new Athlon64 series also has a built-in memory controller that runs at core speed, and of course AMD CPU's have a larger L1 cache. And with the new Socket 939 A64's, AMD has also caught up to Intel in RAM bandwidth to the CPU (128-bit 400MHz vs 64-bit 800MHz). The A64's also have that new-fangled 64-bit thing going for them ;) but that won't make them perform any better until we get a 64-bit OS at least.

Also keep in mind that although AMD processors are more powerful per clock, Intel still has the lead in a few things. For one, multimedia editing is always faster on a P4 vs an Athlon64 of similar rating (ie P4 3GHz vs A64 3000+). The area where AMD really takes off is in gaming. An Athlon64 3000+ will consistently turn in higher game/benchmark frame rates than a P4 3GHz. And hardcore FPU intensive tasks like Seti@Home run better on AMD if they are not dependent or optimized on Intel's advanced instruction sets, like the newest SSE3.

Does that answer your question?

[scylla]

Actually, it presented a whole lot more questions. You should take into account my relative ignorance to such number slinging. My underlying query was, am I better off with amd or intel? ( put aside preferences per gaming or not). Which is faster and more stable and cost effective overall? Sometimes I feel as if I'm shopping for a car... too much brand loyalty out there.

[saphalline]

AMD usually costs less than Intel, although Intel's prices have been coming down lately.

Stability is a system issue, not a CPU issue. You have to look at the whole picture, and make sure you install the proper drivers and OS updates and all that.

Which is faster overall? That depends entirely on what you want to do on your new computer. And what your budget is. And you're right about the brand loyalty thing, some people get too caught up for their own good. I've owned several computers so far, and with each one I switch between Intel and AMD. I started on Intel, then had an AMD system, now I'm back with Intel (P4 2.26 OC'ed to 2.6GHz), and my next upgrade will likely be AMD. I figure why try to fight my own trend? :D

[scylla]

O.K. That clears it up a bit. I can see I'll have to do some real deep research to actually find what it is I need (I was hoping for one size fits all). But as long as I have your attention, I'm gonna really have to bust your chops about your dell hatred. I got some q's on that subject. That'll have to be later though, I'm trying to reformat my brother's virus ridden dell. :o

[Paleo Pete]

I'm gonna really have to bust your chops about your dell hatred.

And I'll have to jump in, so drop it before it starts. I don't put up with anyone jumping on the folks that help out here, or starting trouble. So leave it alone, his dislike for Dell is well founded, as you'll find is the case with most of the people here who don't like one brand or another. I don't like them all - Dell, HP, Toshiba, Gateway, eMachines, Sony - computer manufacturers in general are ripping off comsumers on a grand scale.

If you wish to hold a level headed, intelligent discussion concerning the matter, we love a good debate, bring it on. But the minute you come across as belligerent, or anyone else does, I'll close the thread.

[dsdsds]

Ah. the age old question AMD vs Intel. For those of you (like me) who are more interested in reliability than speed check out the on going stress test (http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041217/index.html) at Tom's hardware Guide. They are running one intel vs one AMD system continuously at full load. They've been running for 5 days now and you can see the real time data online. I for one am glad they're not doing another stupid speed comparison. All computers today are fast enough to handle 95% of everyone's needs. I want a computer which is going to run reliably for 10 years and THG is on the right track with the stress test. I would have designed the test differently setting up 5 indentical Intel systems vs 5 identical AMD systems (instead of 1 vs 1). Then we'd get a true sense of reliability. So far (after 5 days), AMD has performed flawlessly. The Intel system hiccuped twice (rebooted) -- because of a power supply issues. Also CPU temp climbed a little high due to TC issue. It'll be interesting to see who wins.

[scylla]

Take it easy Pete, I wasnt trying to be a jerk. (I just bought a Dell, and I'm beginning to see it's limitations). I was only gonna query seph on whether the dislike was due to software or hardware, or whatever. :confused:

[Fruss Tray Ted]

I read that comment the other night and I knew you meant to say 'pick your brain' rather than what you did say. Blame it on a poor choice of words and things'll be fine.

[saphalline]

I was only gonna query seph on whether the dislike was due to software or hardware, or whatever.
Oh, where oh where do I begin!? Let's see, software. Bad, very bad. First of all, most of the big OEM companies (Dell, Gateway, HP, etc) use WinXP Home by default. Well ain't that just a sour apple! I consider WinXP Home to be a subpar OS. I prefer XP Pro because it has many features and capabilities that I think should be present in any new OS! I won't get into details now, but just look at all the things Pro can already handle that Home needed updates for - HT support, improved networking, improved administrator accesses, USB 2.0 support (SP1 did a lot more for Home than Pro!), etc. While Home is stable enough as Windows OS'es go, Pro can do so much more. Then there's the issue of all that crapware that Dell (and the others) install for you! :mad: Advertisements, "free" sign-ups, "lite" versions of apps that aren't that good anyway (low-end stuff like "CD Wizard for XP" or whatever), countless junk that is designed to start at boot-up, etc. And let's not forget the "hidden" back-up partitions and modified MBR's that prevent you from installing anything but the vendor-specific "restore" CD's of all that junk all over again! I figure, once I buy the machine, I should be able to install or reinstall whatever the $*#^@ I want to! As long as I paid the money for an extra copy of WinXP or any other piece of software, who gives a darn if I want to re-do my own computer!?

Moving on to the hardware, there's even more issues. First of all, aiding and abetting the software woes on OEM machines is the highly restrictive and vendor-specific BIOS. This is the worst part of working on a Dell or Compaq or whatever because they give you absolutely no useful control over any BIOS options. In fact, some machines even have a piece of the BIOS on the hard drive, so that if you wipe the drive, you just lost all access to the BIOS! :eek: Also going along with the BIOS, the mobo itself is just plain ugly. These tiny, highly-proprietary pieces of wasted silicon have very little upgradability (especially for the CPU and RAM) and pretty much no data or specs available to look at. The tiny nature of these OEM machines also leads to the cramped internal environment which, in addition to physically limiting upgrades, also creates problems with adding hotter and more powerful hardware because of a total lack of what I would call adequate cooling and PSU wattage. Not only that, but because the mobo, case, and PSU are all proprietary, the replacement cost of them from the manufacturer (HP/Compaq are the worst) is often 2-3 times what standard parts would cost. Of the few parts that are standard, only the CPU of an OEM machine would be worth anything to me personally. The rest, like the optical drives and hard drives, are often low-end and/or cheap parts that have an uncanny nack for dying the day after the system's warranty ends!!

Even worse, Dell was once the perpetrator of, by far, the most evil thing any OEM company has done to this day - they sold PC's with a proprietary PSU connector that physically fit into a standard ATX connector but was wired differently. The result of mixing the two? Fires. Fires errupting inside the computer, either out of the mobo or the PSU, depending on which was the Dell part. Sure, other OEM companies have used proprietary PSU connectors, but they all made darn sure they couldn't fit into a standard connector! Stupid Dell...

Whenever OEM-buyers see my computer, they always have the same reaction. Double-take, mouth agape, then the incredulous question "What kind of computer is that??" I have a fully standard, custom-built PC housed inside of a full ATX tower. Most people think my computer must be weird because of its large size. "Nope" I tell them, "yours is weird" :D

[jlreich]

LOL!! That's the best OEM bashing I have ever heard. :D And so right on the mark. I forgot about the power connector thing. :mad:

You should copy that off and send it in to your local newspaper or something. You might have OEM snipers looking at you through a scope though. :eek: LOL!!
Watch out for any red dots.

Good one Saphalline.

[Budfred]

Just to add to the comments on prebuilt computers... I was just working on 2 Compaqs for coworkers and had to replace some drives... Getting the boxes open was the first challenge... One was a tower and the other was the more conventional flat box... I had to remove the whole front end of the flat box to access the screws to replace the drive... For the tower, I had to bang my hand up repeatedly to even get the cover off and then I had to partially remove the motherboard to get at the drives... :eek: :eek:

Every manufactured PC I have worked on has had some weird way of getting into the box and doing anything once there... The information available online or in the manuals to figure it out is usually pathetic... I spent at least a couple of hours online looking for help and ended up figuring out the flat box by trial and error... I couldn't believe I had to remove the motherboard for the tower, so I used their chat help... it confirmed that I did and I still have trouble believing they would design it that way even though I am done the computer is back with it's owner... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Building a computer from scratch is easier than trying to work with one of these Rube Goldberg creations... :p

[scylla]

Ahem, I see. I'm sure your all perfectly correct about the downsides to mass manufactured computers, but your forgetting or ignoring the benefits. First, and most important, I'll bet most of you depend upon mass manu's for your daily dollar. I mean, can you actually see computer techs having jobs if it were'nt for the majority of households and businesses in America having and using computers? And where do you think those people get their computers? From some technically correct geek? No, they get them from manufacturers that can turn out a product quickly and cheaply. Most people don't care if they can't tweak their system through bios, or whether they can upgrade their rather smallish towers, (btw , market surveys indicate most consumers prefer less obstrusive appliances). As for the software, THIS IS A BUSINESS. We all profit from innovation geared to making money trying to sell software that regular people can use and enjoy. Do you really think Billy Gates or anyone else would design products for a couple hundred thousand anal-retentive perfectionists? You don't need to love big manufacturers, just understand how you profit from them. If it were'nt for the demand, you guys would be still playing ATARI. CHOPS BUSTED :D

[Budfred]

Do you really think Billy Gates or anyone else would design products for a couple hundred thousand anal-retentive perfectionists?Well that is certainly an offensive way to put it... My choice to build my own computer and help other people upgrade their systems does not make me anal retentive anymore than you decision to buy a Dell makes you any number of obnoxious descriptions I could offer of your personality.... Apparently you chose to not take Pete's warnings seriously...

BTW, you did not ask about the benefits, so yes, I chose to ignore them...

I happen to be a computer hobbyist and do not rely on computers for the majority of my work... I am aware that most people want a very small box they can plug in and talk to like the computer in Star Trek so they don't have to learn anything at all... However, that doesn't mean that I or anyone else here needs to like poorly designed proprietary systems that are designed to be thrown away when something goes wrong... It does not excuse poor support for the systems and it does not excuse use of borderline equipment...

You also presume to say that we don't understand how the computer market works and that the options available to us now are not partly due to the efforts of the big companies to turn computers into a commodity... I do understand this quite well and I still will not recommend a Dell desktop to anyone... I did just recommend a Dell laptop to a coworker who could get it at a good price since laptops are generally proprietary anyway...

If you wish to discuss this further, I suggest you check your assumptions and leave out the insults...

[scylla]

I certainly was'nt trying to insult anyone on this board. I would'nt do that. I appreciate all the technical knowledge apparent at this site . I just think it's important to recognise how WE ALL profit from the advances made in the technical computer field due to the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

[jlreich]

The choice of the OEM's to blatantly make low quality computers is what makes people angry. The little or no ability to upgrade. The difficulty of replacing a drive that just happened to die without warning the day after the warranty ran out(often 90 days). A computer sold to someone that does not know better, that has 128MB of ram to run XP. The desire to make crap computers that they hope in a year or so will frustrate the owners so much that they will go out and buy another one from guess who.

Yes, people here that own shops do make some money from these crap computers that are brought in to get fixed. But I know a lot of people that have scrapped together enough money for these computers that don't even use them anymore because they get frustrated. They tell me they bought it a couple years ago, and haven't used it much for the last year, and are hoping to buy a new one soon. That's not good for anyone.

As far as businesses go, small companys like the one I work for have mostly Dell's. They used to pay $1000. a month for two guys just to be on call. That's not including labor and parts. That hurts the bottom line in a small company like mine. They now fired those guys and pay me and another guy our hourly wage to fix and maintain their computers. They are getting off very easy compared to the average $65. an hour most computer shops charge for work. I am not an IT guy, just someone that has learned a tremendous amount from the PcGuide forums. But they still lose money when they have to pull me out of the field(no longer bringing money in) to work on their computers(putting money out). Even though this brings in some extra cash for me, it does nothing for the bottom line of my company That is bad for everyone. Including me. :( They have some custom built machines that were built in 97' and 98', they are still kicking and with lots of upgrade options. The Dell's will not be still kicking in 6 or 7 years.

Though there are pros to OEM's, but they are far out weighed by the cons.

[yawningdog]

I'm afraid I must agree at least partially with scylla. The folks here at the guide have machines which compare to humvees. Not everyone wants nor can justify the cost of a humvee and elect to buy a Kia instead. Additionally, not everyone wants to wrench on their own car, but would rather let the manufacturer deal with such issues, and are wise enough to purchase warranties. As for pre-installed adware, yes it sucks but it does help defray the cost of the machine, and that's what the average non-geek consumer is concerned with. Anyone not concerned with the money issue can back that up by sending me theirs.

Saphalline has made some excellent points, and one should ignore them at their own peril, but few of the seem to be Dell-specific. I will in no way try to defend the power connector issue, that's just horrendous. But I'm willing to bet that if you bought one of these machines and read the documentation, you would have read somewhere that replacing Dell parts with non-Dell parts was not recommended. And again, for 99% of Dell's customers, this issue is/was strictly academic, as none of them was about to open the case to begin with.

I work for a small IT services company and we sell/service Dell. I've found them to be decent machines overall compared to other mass-produced machines.

[saphalline]

Ahem, I see. I'm sure your all perfectly correct about the downsides to mass manufactured computers, but your forgetting or ignoring the benefits.
No I didn't. I answered the query for myself (as was requested). I made no intention to answer the question for anyone else. For myself, there are absolutely no benefits in buying a Dell.

But indeed I do agree with your points/benefits about buying OEM for others. I might choose another manufacturer right now, but I would have no regrets about recommending an OEM machine to someone, if they wished to do so. It might even be better for others that live far away from me or would prefer me not to build them a computer. And for family members, as they seem to be notorious for calling at 2 am to ask a tech question! :D For people who don't know jack about computers, I would even recommend they get an OEM machine vs all others. Sure, they could be getting a better PC elsewhere, and they wouldn't be as frustrated or whatever, but for those whose lives don't revolve around computers (yes, they do exist! :eek: ) the time invested simply isn't worth it. They just want to buy it and forget it, until it comes time to get another one.

As to those other comments about computer companies, the almighty dollar, and business practices... I won't respond, because I couldn't care less. I love computers so much that I would be willing to this stuff for free. And in fact I do do this for free here on the forums. The so-called "computer business" started with people like Bill Gates who weren't getting money for their hobbies at first. The money came later, the passion for computers came first.

LOL!! That's the best OEM bashing I have ever heard.
Eh, I've seen better here on the forums. But I was just getting started! :D

[Orion]

I just had to chime in on this, since I have had one of the Dells with the PS issue. I got an old Dell (complete with original documentation) from my grandparents that they didn't need anymore, and wouldn't work. It would boot, but then reboot randomly. I figured it was probably the PS. I looked in the original documentation, but couldn't find out whether it took a normal ATX or Dell-specific (it was a system built on the cusp of their proprietary excursions) There was nothing about the power supply, nothing about replaceing parts. Dell (especially at the time this system was sold) was a company that prided themselves in making a computer that you wouldn't have to worry about. unfortunately, when I emailed them to find out about the PS in this one, they wouldn't tell me.

Eventually, I got ahold of Scott Muellers Manual, and got the pinouts. This confirmed the dell proprietary.

I ordered a new PS from ebay, and it worked. Still, this is one of the largest errors dell ever made-especially the fact taht they didn't tell anyone about it until the issue was pressed by people with flame shooting out the backsides of their computers.

The only thing that saved me was that I had heard about the possibility of this being a rogue connector-Dell provided no information.

Quick note on the other OEMs: I have no respect for any computer manufacturer that tries to put out a "one size fits all" machine with less taht 512 MB Memory. perhaps many applications can get by with just 256, or eve (heaven forbid) 128, but one size fits all? please.

[jdbaines]

Referring back to earlier posts on this thread - for access to inside case, try Jeantech's Butterfly V2 - full size, but both sides unclip and fold down. Has plenty of space also. Not expensive either.
The only problem I found was that the leads from the front panel have different nomenclature from that on the MSI mobo I have!
Need to e-mail Jeantech & MSI about that!

[CrackBooger]

I definitly prefer AMD over Intel. My fastest AMD is a 2600 Athlon xp, wich i think clocks around 2ghz and it performs a little better than my 3ghz Intel. The AMD definitly mutli-tasks better, and runs much cooler. I've heard that Intels excel at video encoding but don't do any myself so I can't say if thats true. Also my initial attraction to the AMD's still holds ture, the price is considerably lower. One other thing is the motherboards. I deal with a llot or used/recycled equipment, and it seems a lot of intel motherboards fail more often than boards built for AMD's. There are definitly crappy brands for both, but there seems to be more for Intel boards.

[Budfred]

Did you happen to notice that the last post here was more than a year old?? We prefer that long dead threads not be resurrected unless there is a compelling reason....

[Wandrille]

ya thats true but man this guy used to have a good cpu for 2 years old lol
and grrr i read all of this never lookin at the date and now i see its freaken 2 years old omg!!!

[Whyzman]

Yeah, sometimes the dates are overlooked....;)

[PrntRhd]

Yeah, sometimes I wish we made the FAQ for vBulletin section more clear:
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_vb_user_maintain