Need some "catch up" advice

[drdan]

Hi, everybody. I haven't been around in a while. I've been concentrating on digital photography and my online selling.

I have been asked to build a system for a friend. she needs it for working on fairly complex mortagage research software. Although it's just office software there is apparently a big difference in speed between their best and worst computers in the office using these apps so I assume they take more resources than you would think. She wants super fast, as time is money in the work she does, She will often have more than one app open at a time. She also wants capability to run two monitors with separate programs visible on each so she can go back and forth easily.

I'm thinking P4 with hyperthreading in the 3.0-3.2 range but have not really researched any of this in a year or so, I've been playing with my online stores and stuff, as my computer has been doing well. I have had pretty good luck with MSI boards but am open to suggestions. Probably SATA HDD.

Can someone get me started in the right direction at least? She is going to have the money for most of the parts Monday and I want to go ahead with it ASAP. We almost did this last summer but she suddenly had to replace a washer and dryer instead. :rolleyes:

Very fast, but super reliable and cool. Gaming is unimportant to her, this is for work. Probably her husband and kids will use it for some games but it's not a priority.

I know the common thinking is that office type applications really don't need that much speed but doing as much as I do on my computer I can say it's important to a lot of people. A few seconds here and there really add up over the weeks and months and cost money and productivity.

I'm especially interested in any potential "bottlenecks" where I won't get full performance from the rest of my parts if I use or do such and such.

Oh, I'm probably looking at spending about $1000 for the system not including the monitor. She wants a wireless keyboard and mouse also.

[drdan]

Okay, another question already, what is the SocketT - LGA775 with the P4 processors

[Steve]

Well Doc, the socketT/LGA775 processor is the new P4, designed to work with the new 915/925 chipset. There is plenty of info out there to get you up to speed on it. Don't skip the info from the horses mouth.

Intel Chipsets (http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/index.htm?iid=HPAGE+header_products_chipsets&)

The LGA775/915 combo is still a little to new for me to recommend, having no experience with it. But if you're looking for cutting edge, that's where it's at for Intel products.

For a high end business machine, I'm still using the 478-pin P4s with the 865 chipset on an Intel board. Tried and true. As stable as you're going to get. Set up the SATA HDDs as your working disks and use the IDE drives for backup or use the IDE drives for business and set the SATA drives as your backup.

You get cpu speeds of over 3 ghz along with dual channel DDR ram and the stability that Intel on Intel is known for. I've had good luck on over a dozen builds like this.

I don't have any experience or info on your video question so I'll leave that to those in the know.

:)

[drdan]

Thanks Steve. That is almost exactly what I've been thinking after just a little research. I've been very satisfied with mine. I'd probably go with more and better RAM than I currently have though.

This brings me to another couple of questions.

Northwood vs Prescott?

How much gain with a 3.2 with 1MB cache over a 3.0 with 512KB cache?

[Steve]

IMHO, Northwood is the way to go. Prescotts heat issues, on a business computer, is problematic.

Go with a gig of ram.

[drdan]

Yes, I had already decided to go with the Northwood. I made up a wish list at Newegg. I'm already up to $1200 with shipping and she still needs MS Office and an LCD monitor. I may have to discuss this a good bit more with her.

I also may have to go with some cheaper stuff. Where can I cut without losing too much performance?

She wants lots of USB ports. Is an external hub a better idea?

http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1185509

[Steve]

Heh heh...big computers cost big money. Two grand isn't out of the question. Once you start adding in extra HDDs, printer, scanner, usb HDD for removable storage, software, ect., this kind of computer can approach three grand.

With the setup you have, there are six usb ports. Will she need more than this?

[saphalline]

Hmmm... I see several areas where you could cut back the cost, by at least two hundred! :eek:

First of all, why the PCI USB card? That mobo supports 8 USB 2.0 ports, and those can easily be duplicated with a USB hub or two.

Secondly, what's with all the optical drives?? Does she need a dual-layer DVD burner and a DVD/CD-RW combo drive? What's that for? Is she going to be backing up a lot of DVD's?

Third, why the extra fan? You've already got an Antec TruePower 430W w/2 fans, plus 3 more case fans included with the case. Why pay for another one?

Fourth, you can get almost double the storage of that hard drive for not much more money. 200GB SATA drives are in the $100 range, and 250GB is about $140.

Fifth, you do NOT need Kingston HyperX RAM for a business machine!! That RAM is meant to be put in a gamer's computer and OC'ed to the max! Regular old PC3200 will be just fine (typically known as "value" RAM) even at CAS 3.

Sixth, I would suggest moving up to an LGA 775 system if she is at all interested in upgradability. Socket 478 maxes out at 3.4GHz, which wouldn't be a worthwhile upgrade if she starts out at 3GHz. LGA 775 is going to support next year's dual-core P4's, so plenty of breathing room!

Seventh, WinXP Pro w/SP2 OEM is $143 on Newegg, so unless she really doesn't like SP2, that will save a couple bucks right there.

And last but not least, what on earth is with that weird Matrox P650 vid card? Is that just for the dual-DVI? Most LCD monitors can accept an analog input, and any decent $50-100 vid card will be more than up to the task of supporting two monitors and doing some light gaming, even if you go for PCIe.

I think the biggest question that needs to be asked right now is my 6th point, the upgradability. If she doesn't want the option of moving up in speed later, the Northwood C & i865 combo will be the best bang for the buck. But, in the long run, getting an LGA 775 Prescott w/DDR2 will give her the most lifetime for the buck. I also think we could give her more options if you cut back a little as I have suggested, because a fully-stocked 915 or 925 mobo has tons of features. Such as 4-6 SATA ports, as well as 3 IDE channels (for up to 6 IDE devices!). That will certainly fill up her full ATX tower! :D Not to mention other modern things like gigabit LAN built-in, and the new PCIe (PCI Express) for vid cards and other expansion cards. And in terms of raw power, I think 3GHz w/1GB RAM will out-strip 3.6GHz w/512MB RAM in most high-performance apps (especially custom-built), and this research app of hers sounds like a real system-breaker! You can also tell her of the upcoming dual-core P4's, which basically have two CPU's in one package! Talk about future power!!

Steve also mentioned heat issues with the Prescott not being good for a business machine. Well, yes, but this machine of hers is already equipped with plenty of cooling, and don't forget that Prescott is the CPU that the big OEM companies like Dell and HP are handing out to their customers, so I don't see a problem. Even with Prescott's higher than average heat output for an Intel CPU, it's still below the average level for AMD CPU's, which also run just fine with adequate cooling.

[drdan]

Thanks for the detailed answer!

Although the mainboard theoreticaly supports 8 USB, there are only 4 rear ones and I have yet to get USB 2.0 working on the front of a case. I know, that's my own failing but after having smoke come out of a motherboard when trying to hook up front USB, I'm leery of it. Feel kind of embarrassed about that, but there it is. She already has 5 USB devices and wants some expansion room. I didn't know whether a PCI card or an external hub would be better.

Her systems admiistrator at work told her to absolutely not get SP2 as it's currently incompatible with the mortgage program. She wanted two optical drives. I was actually going to go back and see if I could find a simple DVD/CD ROM unit for the second drive but she does want to be able to burn DVD's.

I knew the memory was probably the most overdone and I guess your bold NOT confirmed it! :D I put it out there but figured I'd change it.

I originally got my P650 card for photo editing but was so impressed at how much faster and cooler my whole system ran when I installed it I was sold on them. I always get comments about it and you're probably right. The only cards I am comparing it to are in the $40-50 range and those sure don't compare. I'm only running one monitor on mine but what a difference in performance over other cards I've used. Any specific suggestions for a replacement that can help with speed loading pages and run two monitors (to make it easier to have multiple applications open) that will compare to the power of the P650 for less money?

As far as fans, I like to have a lot of them, all running at low rpm. I actually probably wouldn't order that until I saw how cooling and noise was on the machine.

Although I'm kind of defending my wish list I greatly appreciate the feedback, this is exactly what I needed. Thanks guys. I'm going to fine tune this and probably post another list. Any specific suggestions on motherboard, processor and memory choice? I'm not tied to any brand other than a P4 processor.

One thing I did notice is that everything except the processor and possibly the hard drive has gone up since I priced them last spring.

[Steve]

For added USB, I'd use a hub. You can link up hub after hub for pretty much any number of peripherals. (127) Don't feel to bad about that front usb incident. I've had two MSI motherboards and the front usb hasn't worked on either. If I plug in any usb device it causes a voltage spike and the computer freezes.

If you decide to go with the 865 chipset, I can whole heartedly recommend the Intel boards. You get the choice of onboard audio, video, lan, sata, raid, in just about any combo you'd like. And the price is reasonable.

I, also, like a lot of fans. As far as I'm concerned, if there's a place for one, put one in.

I have a Plextor DVD burner and a Sony DVD/CDRW combo and although it's a little bit of overkill, it's a nice setup. If that's what she wants, give it to her. A little luxury never hurts. ;)

[drdan]

Yes, I saw you had recommended the Intel boards. I did consider them and still might go with them, I can't remember what the deciding factor was. I do like the Core Center fan control on my current MSI board.

Who has good board and memory recommendations for LGA 775?

[saphalline]

Good to know that about SP2. It's much more forward-thinking (in MS's way) than any other update, so the incompatibility doesn't surprise me. Especially if that mortgage app is from the Win98 days!

I originally got my P650 card for photo editing but was so impressed at how much faster and cooler my whole system ran when I installed it I was sold on them. I always get comments about it and you're probably right. The only cards I am comparing it to are in the $40-50 range and those sure don't compare. I'm only running one monitor on mine but what a difference in performance over other cards I've used. Any specific suggestions for a replacement that can help with speed loading pages and run two monitors (to make it easier to have multiple applications open) that will compare to the power of the P650 for less money?
Very interesting. What were you using before? Something old with very little onboard memory? Or something more recent (like a GF3)? Most normal Windows applications use only the 2D acceleration of a vid card, and don't even touch the 3D power. I wonder if your experience with the P650's speeding up the loading of multiple windows was a driver issue. As far as my experience goes, WinXP is quite speedy with just about any 3D card, from a Rage 128 to a GF 6800 Ultra. Something like a P650 would be more appropriate for a CAD workstation, as the drivers are not game-optimized.

As for other vid card choices, that depends on if you absolutely need two DVI outputs or if one VGA and one DVI will suffice.

Pulling back on the RAM should help quite a bit on the budget. For the move to LGA 775, your options open up greatly, as does the confusion. Look to Intel mobo's for the ultimate in "it just works" and other manufacturers for better feature sets. LGA 775 has several chipsets available, as well as support for DDR, DDR2, and both. RAID is also common - IDE, SATA, or both - but adds a bit to the price. USB 2.0 ports are rampant among these mobo's, as is firewire, and if you want a slick way to add more ports up front without having to wire the pins individually, you can either look for a case that has the connector in one piece or get a front bay adapter that has a card reader with a USB port (these can connect to the USB headers on the mobo).

I like lots of low-rpm fans, also, but I don't think you always need to max out the case spots. Just my opinion of course, but my case isn't even filled with fans, and mine is seriously OC'ed.

This is all up to you, of course, since you know your customer's needs better than I, but I hope my comments help.

[drdan]

Yes, your comments are very much appreciated.

I got the Matorx, actually due to recommendations here. I do no gaming at all but wanted to maximize 2D capability for digital photo editing without going to something as expensive as the Parhelia cards. I realize that the P650 is not 3D optimized but it's great for 2D, that's exactly why I got it.

It's probably not a fair comparison as I had an 865G board with onboard video which I ran for 6 months or so before coming up with the money for the P650. So that was night and day. I also have run several other $40-50 cards in my other machines and have a fairly good 3D card in my daughters computer (can't remember which one I got but it was about $120). For the photo editing I do and pulling up a lot of big picture files quickly, the P650 seems to have much better performance than the other cards to me. I was assuming that an office application with no 3D but needing lots of RAM might respond well also. That's just an amateur assumption and may not hold water. Any more in depth explanations of this would be welcomed.

[drdan]

Okay, here is the latest incarnation. This should include everything except MS Office and a monitor. I have two motherboards on the list. Any pros and cons of each would be appreciated. They are roughtly equal in features and price I think. I do like the MSI Core Center but since the Prescott is not overclockable anyway, it doesn't really matter much.

I did not go for PCI-E. I know that makes it less upgradable but I figured if she ever upgrades the board can be changed also.

On the other hand, if it's on the 865 chipset and a new board would be needed to go to DDR2 and PCI-E, is there any advantage to going with the LGA 775 processor?

http://secure.newegg.com/app/WishR.asp?ID=1191556

[drdan]

One thing I'm not sure about is number of IDE and SATA connectors. I don't know if I can use two optical drives and an extra IDE HDD for backup.

[Steve]

Hi Doc, you have 2 IDE channels on each of those motherboards. Each IDE channel supports 2 devices. If you're running two optical drives, you will have space for two IDE HDDs if you so choose.

The only advantage I see to the 775 processor is, if she decides to upgrade to PCI-E and DDR-2 in the future, she will already have the processor.

[saphalline]

On the other hand, if it's on the 865 chipset and a new board would be needed to go to DDR2 and PCI-E, is there any advantage to going with the LGA 775 processor?[/url]
Not so much with that mobo you picked out. For one thing, I have a mobo based on the i865PE chipset, and I can tell you that it doesn't support more than 4 drives. :( Using the SATA connectors requires that you disable one of the IDE channels, so in the end you're still stuck with 4 drives total - 2 IDE and 2 SATA. The other thing to worry about with that older chipset is CPU support. I don't know how far the 800 series chipsets can go. I don't know if they will be able to support the upcoming dual-core P4's. So far, it looks like they can handle the standard Prescott 5xx series, but beyond that your guess is as good as mine.

If you're really intent on sticking with a cheaper CPU-mobo combo, go back to Socket 478. Again, this will greatly restrict CPU upgradability (3.4GHz max), but if you don't want to spring for a 915-based mobo, then LGA 775 doesn't make much sense.

[classicsoftware]

Guys, I don't build systems at all, but there is something missing from the picture.

DDRAN, you ned to contact the author of the mortgage software and find out what components provide the best performance. They are not going to specify brands or chipsets but they will tell you what components generate better performance. Is it the CPU, the RAM or the hard drive. They will all play a role, but in what order. That will tell you where to splurge and where to cut back based on the performance of the Application.

In the mean time, I'm just having a blast learning from Steve & Saphalline.

[drdan]

It's not the price. The 915 boards aren't that much more. It's the fact that they almost all use only PCI-E with no AGP which seems to make a video card solution even more expensive and not what I want.

I saw ECS has a kind of "transition" board which supports both PCI-E and AGP as well as both DDR and DDR2. I was not really interested in ECS particularly and there seemed to be some other drawbacks to the board but I can't remember what they were.

I almost went back to the Socket 478 but I could not find a good retail Northwood chip that I was sure would be what I wanted. I only checked 4-5 places but it looks like they're phasing them out.

If you have a specific 915 mobo/CPU/PCI-E video card combo which you think would work well for this application I would be very interested in checking it out.

Thanks for the help on this.

[Steve]

Hi folks,

Just to clear up one point, right now I am using an MSI 865PE Neo2-P motherboard. I have two 80 gig WD HDDs on the primary IDE controller (master and slave) and a Plextor DVD burner and a Sony DVD/CD-RW combo (master and slave) on the second IDE controller, and an 80 gig WD SATA drive hooked to the first SATA channel. Works fine.

As saphalline pointed out though, some mobos might not let you do that, so you should check. The MSI mobo I'm using has an AMI bios, ver. 3.31a, and allows the use of 4 ide devices and two SATA drives. I presume the later AMI BIOSs will also allow this but as I said, you should check it out.

Newegg has a 3ghz Northwood chip HERE (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-116-163&depa=0) for $20 more than the one on your list. Prescotts seem to be in good supply, although somewhat more expensive than the 775.

CS makes a very good point. I wonder if the software has certain hardware requirements.

You have an interesting and enviable dilemma, go with cutting edge or stick with the tried and true. You might want to ask the customer if the upgrade path is an important feature. A computer based on the 865 chipset with a cpu around 3ghz is a nice machine and will offer plenty of power for quite a while to come. If upgradability is the important feature, 775/915 could be the way to go.

Of course, we haven't talked about AMD yet.... ;)

[drdan]

Yes, I saw that Northwood, but it's OEM. Which means I have to figure out a heatsink solution and pay for that which makes it more like $40-50 more. I have been very satisfied with the stock heatsink on the last three processors I've bought in the last year so I'm disinclined to go to the trouble of a separate heatsink unless I have temp problems.

[saphalline]

As saphalline pointed out though, some mobos might not let you do that, so you should check. The MSI mobo I'm using has an AMI bios, ver. 3.31a, and allows the use of 4 ide devices and two SATA drives. I presume the later AMI BIOSs will also allow this but as I said, you should check it out.
You know, it's funny you should mention the BIOS thing. I just checked and I couldn't believe it! I'm still running the original factory default BIOS on my mobo! :eek: I don't know how that one slipped under my radar, but rest assured that will be fixed before I go to bed! I will report back as to whether or not the latest BIOS lets me use my SATA and all my IDE channels together.

drdan - I agree with you on the stock heatsink that comes with the retail CPU. These are often more than enough cooling for stock speeds, and in most cases lately, they are even enough for OC'ing! Reports are all over the internet about success stories and OC'ing and stock HSF units. Why upgrade if you don't need to?

Ditto about classicsoftware's mention of the bottlenecks of the software. It could very well be that any modern system will blow the socks off the requirements, but of most interest to us right now is any CPU extensions that the app uses. Does it use MMX? SSE? Is it new enough to use SSE2 or SSE3? How about AMD's extensions like 3DNow! or 3DNow! Pro? And how much RAM does it like? The app might be so old as to not run much faster on newer hardware, but from your descriptions, that seems unlikely.

[saphalline]

Well, what do you know, Steve? The new BIOS fixed that problem! :D Strange that I never thought of that, but it just goes to show you how much I pay attention to my own PC! :eek: ;)

[Steve]

Heh heh...glad you got that sorted out. I have always thought that was the main purpose of the SATA channels. If I can't add more HDDs, I don't need it. ;)