Another Reason NOT to buy Dell

[classicsoftware]

Just read this and try not to laigh at all of the suckers who will be asking for our help after March
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=20398

[Rick]

this is Nothing new.
They have had that 90 day for a long time.

BUT the buyer has the option of paying the extra $$ for more..

[classicsoftware]

The key word is extra.

I love the chnace to compete against dell.

Add the warranty
Upgrade the RAM
Upgrade to XP Pro

The $500.00 computer becomes almost $800.00...

[123456]

the list goes on and on..my family friend's dad bought three dells in the past year. 2 2400, and an inspiron 1100. I argued with him and he says, "Oh dell is the best."
Anyways, the list goes on and on :D .
1) Warranty rip offs
2)Dell never begins to build pcs. Well, I ordered an 8400 6 months ago for a week it was on preproduction. Cancelled bought an hp.
3)weird way of placing components.
4)Expensive paperweights, (Notebooks)
5)Tries to dominate industry by making printers, pdas, tvs, w/e. Stick with pcs, dell. The old ones were better.
6)Their laptops are under juiced.
7)Ugly designs
8)Outdated 8400 case. Trust me, I am using an 8200 from november 2002. Same design except for the vent under the front panel.
9)Bad support
10)Heavy notebooks

Good points
1)Uh, paperweights that actually do the job of holding papers?
2)Great market value
3)Amazing technology dies in 2 minutes. Use those two minutes wisely.
4)Free mousepads.
5)Good use of plastic materials
That's the list.

[Rick]

Actually it goes from 494 to 618 (desktop)
for XP Pro($71), 1 Year warranty ($17), and 512 meg of ram($36).

I have also found that those who want a $500 PC
Wont buy anything extra to begin with ..

It's like those people who didn't like my price quote.
They went to Best Buy and got off the shelf unit's.

In less than a month they were calling me for support.
They didn't like My Price tag for supporting their new units.

But they did pay it in the end.

[Paul Komski]

I have mixed feelings in this area because I would use the minimum guarantee period for myself but recommend the maximum period for someone else.

OK - one can be unlucky and have bad hardware failure needing expensive repair but generally speaking hardware failure is going to be either very early or after three, four or five years. So its a gamble in that respect but generally speaking if one can afford to underwrite something oneself one can cut out the profit involved for the "insurer" and keep it in one's own pocket.

Software support is a different matter so I personally don't feel the need to pay anything for this aspect of a warranty because I would expect to be able to cope with such problems myself - that's obviously not the case for all users.

[Rick]

Paul

I have to agree with you.

In a few cases I would have loved to NOT pay for the support ..

I didn't need it, I didn't want it, But it was included in the price.

Today as in the past it all depends on who you are dealing with.

A new user who needs you to hold his/her hand at each step of the learning curve .

Or the end user who will take it back to their location .
Open the case and change or add to it from day one.

As I have done for many years and I advice everyone who asks.
What to do with a new system.?

Set it up and BURN it in for the first 30 days..
Turn off all the power saver features and work it to death ..
If it doesn't fail in the first 30 days . It's a good bet it will last till you feel the need to upgrade ..

[papertech]

I too like the option to upgrade the warranty. Eventho I seldom upgrade, I do suggest it to others.

[hockey man]

although the warrantie pollicy might stink, are the pc's ok? I'm a college bound student looking for a affordable pc so wht do you think of buying one of thier refurbished pcs?

[123456]

how 'bout no, hockey man? Stick to hp. THey're affordable-i got a 3GHz, 512mb RAM, 128mb video card, 160gb hdd, dvd-rom, dvd-rw/cd-rw combo, fully loaded system w/ 17" lcd for just $1,474, (after rebates).

[jlreich]

Just to add to the reasons not to buy a Dell.

I was talking to the accountant at the office the other day, he said that all 5 Dell Latitude laptops they bought just a little over a year ago, had their batteries die on them. Two of them right before the 1 year warranty ran out, so those were replaced. But the other three are without a battery because they cost $160 to replace. :eek:

The list goes on..........

[123456]

these are why they are very cheap...

[Speedbird_777]

not to mention Dell Dimension 3000 PC has no AGP or PCI-e slot...nice, you get a P4 3.0 but can't put in a video card, that is a really stupid thing to do IMO

would be nice if the guys at Dell would tell you about it, or how about when you take 1024mb of ram they put 4 sticks of 256...great for an upgrade later on, when asked if they could instead put 2x512mb they said sorry we can't do that

[123456]

lol...i didn't know that was true about the 3000

[jlreich]

not to mention Dell Dimension 3000 PC has no AGP or PCI-e slot...nice, you get a P4 3.0 but can't put in a video card, that is a really stupid thing to do IMO
You have to be kidding me..... Thats' plain idiotic. :eek: :mad: :eek:

[Speedbird_777]

Dimension 3000
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim3000/en/SM/techov12.jpg

Dimension 4700

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim4700/sm/techov2.jpg

I also called them asking if it was true as I could not believe either

[pop pop]

I own Dell stock (I also own M$). I think we have to look at this from a business standpoint not from the top of our Geek Professional mountain top.

Back in the late 80's there was a saying in the personal computer world. It applied to PC's, Mac's, Commodores, whatever. It was called the rule of 2000. There was also the rule of 18, but that's another story. The rule of 2000 basically said, to capture the biggest share in the home-based computer market, you had to offer something with reasonable bells and whistles, and you had to come in with a sticker at or under $2000. Any higher and you scared mom, pop, and the kids away. Today, it might now be the rule of 1200, 1000, or lower.

Dell does a couple of things VERY well, Number One is marketing. Their advertising is slick,pervasive, and persuasive--something few of the others ever learned. The next thing is Dell knows how deep mom, pop, and the kids pockets are (still marketing--just market analysis). If you want to get into those pockets, you have to match a product to the coin. If that means you have to come down in price, you have to figure out how to do it. Dell figures it out.

You can flame them for warrantee and support, you can flame them for using plastic, you can flame them for using four 128MB sticks instead of two 512's, the bottom line is they sell. As a shareholder, I'm glad. As a Geek, I'll buy something else. Mom, pop, the kids and Dell will continue to make sure my holdings enjoy some capital appreciation.

[Speedbird_777]

I understand what you say but Imagine the guy who pays 1000$ for a dimension 3000 PC then decides he wants to play Doom3, goes to Circuit City buys the game come home, it doesn't run, goes back to the store and they tell him he needs a videocard..sells him a Gforce6600GT AGP, the guy comes home tries to put it in (opens the card up and everything) then realizes it doesn't fit in any slots, calls Dell they tell him sorry no AGP slot, goes back to Circuit City....oooops they tell him it's openned they won't refund him, has to settle for a low end graphics card that runs in a PCI slot and has to run Doom3 on min settings with his nice P4 3.0 with HT 800FSB and 1024mb ram

Come on, the guy who decided to configure the Mobo of Dell's best selling and middle ranged desktop without a video slot. The 2400 series with celeron and low end everything sure that one I understand but not the 3000.

[jlreich]

I understand cutting corners to make an affordable machine. But come on, how much are they able to shave off the price by not throwing in an AGP slot? Look at the comparison of a few pennies saved versus how much no slot for a decent video card lowers the ability to upgrade. WTF! :mad: What's next? Are they going to weld a 20GB HDD onto the case so it can not possibly be removed and replaced? Somehow make it impossible to add a second HDD? Or just weld their cases together, so when something goes bad, you just have to throw it in the trash? Which apparently, is where it belongs anyway.

Even if they only did this on the 2400, it would still BS. I have a Celeron 2.4, and a decent video card. It runs HL2 with no problems at all. That just won't happen with onboard video.

This takes the cake. They win the prize. Dell sucks.

[pop pop]

Don't get me wrong, it sucks. And, being an engineer, I would say from a design standpoint it's bad engineering--probably a bad design decision forced upon the design guys by the more powerful marketing guys.

As for the poor slob who buys the 3000 (or any unit for that matter), and then wants to play Doom and can't...like Budfred's signature says, "Buyer Beware". Know what you're buying before you pay for it, not after. If Dell and/or any reseller blatantly misrepresented their product, it would be different.

Mistakes similar to these have been made by PC companies in the past and they paid for them. I already discussed Commodore, who at one time made a graphics and animation box (the Amiga) that was years and years ahead of everyone else. Now, take Compaq, for an example. To this day, I would never buy one. Why? Proprietary everything right down to cables and connectors. The idea was if you bought a Compaq, you would be forced to buy everything for that PC from Compaq and they would make more money. It backfired.

The market ultimately weeds out the bad and the good survive. You can take that to the bank, my Geek brethren.

[jlreich]

As for the poor slob who buys the 3000 (or any unit for that matter), and then wants to play Doom and can't...like Budfred's signature says, "Buyer Beware". Know what you're buying before you pay for it, not after. If Dell and/or any reseller blatantly misrepresented their product, it would be different.

Well, you can say "Buyer Beware", but most people that these machines are marketed towards, won't have any idea what a AGP or PCI-X slot is. Or if they do know, it is not likely they will notice the mobo doesn't have either one. I'm sure Dell doesn't conspicuously place a statement that the computer does not have the ability to upgrade the video, and if you want to play any mid to high level games, you are SOL. Of course not, if they did, they would sell considerably less of these machines.

[pop pop]

jlreich,

You are, of course, correct on all counts. My point is simply that everyone should do what they can to be an informed consumer. If you don't know, ask. And even then, consult with someone :D who does know and who you trust.

Consumers shouldn't go out shopping with a Volkswagon budget and very little knowledge and expect to come home with a Caddie, or Ferrari, or...whatever. Many people do exactly that. If your going to buy a computer, and you are not a Geek, find one and pick his brain. Otherwise, you put yourself and your money at risk.

I saw this quote the other day that kind of speaks to the piont, albeit in a convoluted and wierd kind of way:

"There are exactly 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

Peace

[Paul Komski]

sinx/n = 6

[pop pop]

ROLMAO :D :D :D :D :D :D

I have to admit, I'm curious :p


10base2

[jlreich]

jlreich,

You are, of course, correct on all counts. My point is simply that everyone should do what they can to be an informed consumer. If you don't know, ask. And even then, consult with someone :D who does know and who you trust.

Consumers shouldn't go out shopping with a Volkswagon budget and very little knowledge and expect to come home with a Caddie, or Ferrari, or...whatever. Many people do exactly that. If your going to buy a computer, and you are not a Geek, find one and pick his brain. Otherwise, you put yourself and your money at risk.

I saw this quote the other day that kind of speaks to the piont, albeit in a convoluted and wierd kind of way:

"There are exactly 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't."

Peace

I definitely agree that you should find help selecting a system if you don't know what to look for. Maybe it is my lack of knowledge, but before this thread I would have considered it a "given" that any modern system would have at least an AGP slot. There is a good chance while I was checking out a system for someone, I would notice that there is no graphics slot, but maybe not. If they wanted to buy cheap and now, I might say, go ahead and buy that system if you want, you can always add a video card later when you have the money. But again, maybe that's just my lack of knowledge. :o

I also think as you said about Compaq, it will come back to haunt them in the long run.

BTW, I hope you don't take that my anger is towards you. Only as I said before, with Dell, the list goes on.........

As a side note, I understand binary, I even understand hexadecimal, but I don't have a clue what sinx/n = 6 means....LOL :D :eek: :D

[Paul Komski]

sinx/n = sixn/n = six = 6

[pop pop]

Good one, took me a few looks but I get it. :D

[saphalline]

Hmmm... looking at Dell's website, I have to agree with pop pop on this one: "buyer beware"! Anyone who expects to be able to buy an P4 3.0GHz computer with a 17" monitor for $500 and still have it be upgradeable is just asking for a headache. Or at least to be proven wrong. ;) I mean, really! $500 for a PC & monitor? You'd have to be nuts to try and upgrade that!

People are so freakin' spoiled by technology these days! I've actually overheard customers in Best Buy, CompUSA, etc, that try and haggle with the sales people over the price! WTF?? Haggling over the price of a $500 PC at a national chain store? Of course the sales people always say NO. They aren't there to haggle, nor do they have the authority, nor does anyone else who works at Best Buy corporate I imagine, but some people just have tremendous audacity! What are they thinking?

Being frustrated by customers is very familiar to me, so while I appreciate jlreich's comments about people who have been burned by technology products that marketed in questionable ways, I have to say that there are a few out there that have ultimately ruined it for the rest. These are the people you meet during the day that are unpleasant, lack social common sense, and are totally selfish. They do things like try and haggle their way out of (or into) situations or prices, and they refuse to learn anything that might help to alleviate the problem next time. Being ignorant about technology is one thing, but if you complain about it while also refusing to learn from me, I've lost all respect for you. Either figure it out or shut up.

Ok, probably more of a rant than I intended :p but my point is that some people really do deserve to get burned by their technology purchases! Whatever hole they're in, it's for a reason!

[jlreich]

I can't really argue with a lot of your points. My biggest point is how much can they possibly save by not including a graphics slot? Versus the ability to put in a video card. I'm not saying you should be able have 4GB of ram, and 4 HDD's in a $500 box. But no AGP slot? :confused:


Yes it took me minute as well pop pop. :D

[saphalline]

My biggest point is how much can they possibly save by not including a graphics slot?Probably only a dollar or two per mobo, but to a company like Dell which survives on volume, a dollar per mobo can really add up! I don't agree with it either from a geeky ethical point of view, but then again my builds are all custom made so when I sell one, the price is never the same. Dell, on the other hand, buys in bulk. Makes sense from a business/money standpoint, but crippling their machines like that is just atrocious!! Then again, we ARE talking about the company that until recently sold systems with WinXP and only 128MB of RAM, so... :rolleyes:

[pop pop]

DELL IS NOT ALONE!

Somebody I know threw a dead eMachine my way. I've never worked on or used one, just marveled at how "inexpensive" they were when I saw them somewhere. The BIOS is dated 1999 so it's just at the edge of ancient. Listen to these specs I got based on the PC-CONFIG utility on UBCD (can't boot to Windoze cuz I had to restore and I did so before finding out there is no key):

P2 Celeron 366 with everything integrated except the modem and HDD. HDD is 4.3GB Samsung 5400 rpm (of course, now discontinued), 32MB RAM (one SDRAM), integrated video chipset is ATI 3D Rage Pro 4MB, no sound that I can tell, NO AGP slot, 2 PCI slots, 2 memory slots, and I think the other two are ISA. Since I couldn't get Win98 to load with no key, I put a 32MB RAM stick I had in and I thought maybe Linux--wrong. No version of Linux I have will load graphically, including Live CD versions--they all go CLI. Basically, it's a paperweight. I wonder what it went for new and I wonder what scary stuff waits under the case in what's in the store now.

BTW--that UBCD is a nice tool.

[saphalline]

Dell may not be alone in the crude hardware giveaway, but while eMachines was vomiting up systems like you have now, Dell was in the midst of their horrible PSU screw-up! You know, the ones that fit into a normal ATX power connector but were wired differently? The ones that caused fires if mixed with normal ATX hardware?

We all know that OEM systems are crap, it's just that Dell has collected a certain... reputation over the years. I dislike Dell the most not because they're guilty of the same hardware follies of HP & eMachines, but because they've made some really huge mistakes in the past. I just don't trust them anymore.

[pop pop]

To the point of how much is saved by not including an AGP slot...

Let's say your $1 per PC figure is close. I did some research and Michael Dell said in October of 2004 that he sold between 130,000 and 150,000 PCs a day. So that would be somewhere between 47.5 and 54.75 million dollars a year.

So, as much as it may boil Geek blood, Michael gives his market PCs with video they find acceptable (even if misguidely so) and the corporate bottom line saves $50 million.

My bottom line is I will not buy Compaq, eMachine, or Dell. But as long as Dell stock makes me money, I will buy that.

[Speedbird_777]

true but I have noticed that the PC has evolved alot since say the Pentium 3 days

before it was all about CPU and Ram, now it's all about GPU and RAM, the cpu has less importance today then it did yesterday, almost nobody needs the extra power of an Athlon64 4000+ versus that of the 3000+ to run any kind of game or software on the market today, and as consumers are starting to use their PC's do do a whole lot more than internet browsing, companies like Dell need to stay sharp to stay profitable, when those 50 millions buyers of non AGP equipped PC's comes around they will have lost their trust in Dell and will most probably not buy from the company that to save 1$ cost them 1000$

[jlreich]

companies like Dell need to stay sharp to stay profitable, when those 50 millions buyers of non AGP equipped PC's comes around they will have lost their trust in Dell and will most probably not buy from the company that to save 1$ cost them 1000$
Yes, they will lose their market share in the long run because of this.

Usually when you buy a cheap pc, you would expect to see last years technology, but not totally regress to five or six years ago. Even the old CompUSA I bought in Jan. of 2000, has a 2x AGP slot. At $1300, low end and last years technology at the time.

BTW, less than two years after I bought the CompUSA, the monitor died with smoke and sparks coming out the back. The cd-rom died in a little over a year. And the KB and mouse died in a little over a year as well. So Dell is not the only one to make crap.

But I am still hard on Dell because as I mentioned several posts ago, all 5 Dell laptops that my company bought a little over a year ago, had their batteries die within two months of each other. 5 out of 5. That's pretty bad no matter how you look at it.

The only good experience I have had with an OEM so far is HP. I bought it a year and a half ago. So far nothing has died in it. The mouse is starting to get flaky, but that's no big deal. For $700, it came with 1x512MB ram, CD-RW, DVD-ROM, Athlon 2400+, 17" monitor, multi media KB, 60GB HDD, onboard video, and a 4x AGP slot. I have since upgraded it to 1GB ram(maxed out now), 160GB HDD, and added a 9600se. It is still a very usable machine, and runs HL2 with no problem. And a nice easy to open case with thumb screws, and CD storage on top. :D That's a fair deal for $700 a year and a half ago.

But, you have to take that with a grain of salt. The first one I bought, the CD-RW did not burn, the monitor was flickering, and the speakers were crackling. Took it back to the store I bought it from and got a replacement. Every thing was fine with the new one, except the speakers were still bad. Fortunately for me, I wasn't going to use those speakers anyway. So I didn't worry about it.

I could say the first one I got was just a lemon, it could happen to anything. But I am sure there are those that can give horror stories about HP as well.

[saphalline]

before it was all about CPU and Ram, now it's all about GPU and RAMOoh, I'm going to disagree with you here based on the market segment that buys Dells and other OEM's. Gamers and geeks like us do indeed care more about our vid cards and RAM, but everyone else still sees CPU speed as being the end-all-be-all of a computer. Speed sells, no matter if the performance benefits are non-existent. And a lot of home users just want something that works with as little hassle as possible. That's where the OEM's come into play. Now granted they do sell a lot of crap, but the key words there are "they do sell a lot".

Now I'm not saying OEM machines are good or anything, but they do have their place. And in terms of upgradability, I do think that anyone wanting to play HL2 or Doom 3 on their computer is at least going to know that a $500 complete system won't be able to cut it. Some will get burned by the PCI-only Dell 3000, but on the other hand, the PC market has already been mostly saturated. Very few people out there are first-time PC buyers simply because everyone who can afford one has already bought one, so now the market is essentially full of people who are buying a new computer. After owning a few OEM machines, people do pick up on what they specifically need to look for in order to satisfy their needs. They will ask questions, and I'm sure the Dell phone reps will tell people about the lack of an AGP or PCIe slot on the 3000 if asked.

This whole ordeal is very controversial, and I myself could argue it back and forth, but I think the best thing we can do here on the forums is just to bring these issues to people's attention. Remember, we have a lot more non-members perusing the forums now than ever before! Let's get the word out!

[Speedbird_777]

I agrea that you say most consumers are not at their first PC's, but then again alot of consumers are not at buying their first VCR's and most still can't program them :P

but remember HP Pc's you can buy at the retail outlets, and they have salepeople there that can answer questions, but Dell does most of their business online, and if you try to order a Dell 3000 you will never see anywhere that it has no AGP slot, and since most people including me figure it's a given to have a video slot would just order it as it...just like I almost did...and I am not a newbie with PC's (do not read pro, not there yet)

[hockey man]

so what type of system would you recomemd someone who's total funds for a pc are $800?

[saphalline]

I would recommend you build your own! :p But if you're not up to that task, you'll either have to buy an OEM bundle or see what local PC shops are in your area.

[hockey man]

I don't know enough to build my own system. I know the dell 3000 stinks, but what is the 4700 like? :confused:

[Speedbird_777]

the 4700 is pretty ok, PSU is a little weak, but they come with SATA drives, PCI-e slot, 4 slots for RAM (bear in mind that Dell places 256mb sticks) so if you go with a a gig. when you go to upgrade your going to have to throw out a stick.

Vid cards are kind of on the low end/not interesting like GeForce9800 why would anybody want that? I would rather have a 6600GT or put the premium for the 9800GT, best bet is to ask your sales rep to configure one without a vid card.

But IMO I would go with a clone, a PC built by a local retailer or from here NCIX (http://www.us.ncix.com/pcbuilder/index.php?membership=0) they are in Canada but I am sure you can find in the states, you choose all the name brand parts and they assemble it for you.

[hockey man]

I know thins links about dell's and I've asked this qustion before, but since you're here what do you think about hp a850y?

[saphalline]

As OEM systems go, the HP a850y isn't bad. It has very limited drive capacity so it would be difficult (if not impossible, depending on how you configure it) to just toss another optical or hard drive in there for a future upgrade. The inclusion of an x16 PCIe slot helps a lot with vid card upgradability, but the ones HP offers (Radeon X300SE & X600 Pro) would not be my first choices! The PSU could also use a bit more power (only 300W), but for a tiny OEM system with little to no upgradability, it's probably plenty.

The other thing to note about HP's a850y is that it's made to be a media center. For a package deal, and with the right upgrades, it would excel at that role. Again, I would urge anyone buying that model to go with the onboard video and pick out a better PCIe vid card for the money, but some of the other upgrades, like the remote control and SB Audigy2 ZS are good investments.

While I would never buy an OEM system for myself, those who can't build their own would be well served by the HP a850y for a media center or for other content creation duties. Just be sure you get it with at least a 160GB hard drive and 1GB of RAM.

[hockey man]

the only upgrade i would do is to get a vid card for it. which of these two is better?
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-396&depa=1
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-396&depa=1

[saphalline]

Actually, I would recommend this Asus (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-121-518&depa=1) X300. It's only $5 more, but it is a retail boxed version from a more reputable company and it has a TV-out cable. Of course, this is just my opinion.

[hockey man]

thanks, i'll probably get that one then.

[dsdsds]

Here's a reason to buy Dell. I dare ANYONE to find a better deal on a new computer with WIN XP included. Note that this is from dell.ca (Canadian$!) and free shipping! Yeah, I know it's only 256MB ram and probably crappy components but who cares? If you need a computer for wordprocessing and web browsing ... I think I'll order one and use it as a 2nd computer. I find this unbeleivable. Win XP alone is about CA$140. I'm convinced that Dell does not make any money on these deals. They are betting that people will choose to add on options when they are ordering.

http://img.dell.com/images/ca/segments/gen/promos/desktop_savings_bsd.jpg

[jlreich]

No monitor. Now you are back up to the $400 computer. Still a bad deal if you ask me. And Win XP home is only $90. Pro is $150.

[illumina]

I have two Dell desktop pc's laying around and nary a problem...At the moment. But I don't have to deal with their cutomer service or anything like that.

Dell # 1: 320 mb ram...Runs with dual boot win2K and MD linux 8.2...Runs well too (Optiplex)

Dell #2: 256 mb ram...Runs win2K...Runs superb (Dimension).


Oh, both were free too! :D

[jlreich]

I will take one for free. But wouldn't give more than $50 bucks for one. :D

[illumina]

I will take one for free. But wouldn't give more than $50 bucks for one. :D

You probably remember that I had to replace the motherboard on the one, but it was like $20.00 from EBAY, so no big deal.

I was always under the impression that Dell had good customer service and such, but I've never had to deal with them because I've never had a new Dell. And I probably never will waste the cash on one either. I prefer custom over Wll-Mart bought, mass produced pc's anyways. Not that Dell is sold in Wal-Mart anyways, I'm just saying though.

[dsdsds]

jlreich, I don't understand how this (the dell ad) is a bad deal. Try to find a new computer without monitor for less than CA$299 free shipping. That's US$241. I was looking for 2nd hand computers at garage sales that went for more. Even if this Dell breaks down after 2 years, it still worth it.

[PrntRhd]

dsdsds,
Classicsoftware's post was about the mid to high priced versions, not about who can do the cheapest PC. At these sub $400 price points Dell eliminates profitability for any of their competitors and builds market share.
You won't fix these PCs, just replace them, and discard your data. There is also an issue with how that siphons off the necessary revenue for support options, and I wish buyers good luck getting more than minimal support from Dell for these low end units without a warranty extension because Dell doesn't have any revenue built into the deal to provide the support either.
Dell makes up the revenue by lowering the included content of the mid to high price point PCs. Until people start demanding better service support Dell will dominate the sales figures.

[jlreich]

jlreich, I don't understand how this (the dell ad) is a bad deal. Try to find a new computer without monitor for less than CA$299 free shipping. That's US$241. I was looking for 2nd hand computers at garage sales that went for more. Even if this Dell breaks down after 2 years, it still worth it.
I will admit it is hard to beat $241. I came up with $311 for similar parts at Newegg. But that's probably in part because I can't get as low quality parts that Dell uses. :rolleyes: The other part would be that all the parts I picked out have a 1-3 year warranty, compared to Dell's 90 days. I would still rather pay the extra $70 bucks. ;)

If anyone reads through this thread, and a couple other recent threads, they will see that there are soooo many other reasons not to buy a Dell. Money being the least of the issues. ;)

[pop pop]

I stayed away from this for a while but couldn't resist again.

I think you really have to look at these sub $400 units for what they are. I think the best analogy is the disposable camera. If you want to take some pics while on holiday, you have a couple of choices. One is buy a nice 35mm SLR or digital that you'll have for a while for a nice chunk of change. The second is go to the local convenience store and buy a disposable for under ten bucks. The disposable does the job for which you buy it and that's it.

The sub $400 units are disposables. They're not intended to be long term, upgradeable, expandable, workhorses. Would I buy one? No. My needs are different. Should a mom and pop with a middle school kid and very little free cash buy one? You can bet they'll consider it, probably do it, and learn a bit in the process. Would I recommend that they take that route? Only if there was absolutely no alternative.

The world of computers is all about one word--"solutions". That word means different things to different people at different times.

[classicsoftware]

There are several issues I was trying to raise:

1) DELL as the leading PC maker in the world is selling systems that are under-powered to people who know the least about PC's. The people who buy from DELL depend on the knowledgable and friendly DELL employee to assist them. You cannot in good consicience sell a PC with Windows XP SP2 with 256 MB RAM. It will NOT run really well. You need to run with 512 MB of RAM to do anything worthwhile.

2) DELL is taking the industry away from anything more than 90 day warranties. They are leading the industry there and I don't like it.

3) They sell systems with small power supplies and this leads to premature failure. Then you have to junk the system becuase they use proprietary parts and you can't just go out and get a part or you have to overpay them for the low quality proprietary parts.

4) Their service and support is BAD BAD BAD.......

Are there situations where a DELL makes sense, I'm sure there is.

If they are the industry leader I expect them to act like it.

[papertech]

Since the maker of WinXP states that the minimum RAM required to operate is 256 and because consumers are so very price conscious, it's necessary for all computer makers to offer what's known in retail as a "loss leader". That's a stripped down, bare bones version of a product to be used as an advertising price point. If one is a "glass half empty" kind of soul, one could see this as bait and switch. True, corporations have no conscience.

As it was said previously, there is a market for the low end product. New users don't need much power and don't know they're moving slowly. Until they do, any disposable system is typically adequate. By the time a new user becomes a power user, he's got a back up stradegy and the migration to a more powerful system is fairly painless.

I've heard of and had many more good experiences with Dell service than BAD BAD BAD. Unfortunately that's not the case for many of you.

I wonder if we could start threads for all major computer makers stating why not to buy their products?

Actually, I'd rather see more POSITIVE discussions. Too much negativity around here lately.

Kindest regards..........

[classicsoftware]

M$ has always low-balled the amount of RAM required to run their OS's.

Just because M$ says the minimum is 256 MB of RAM, does not mean in the real world that is the case.

[Steve]

You might be surprised to learn that M$ sets the minimum RAM for XP at 128MB. I don't know if they're still selling them but last year Dell was selling a system with a 2.4ghz celeron and 128MB RAM for $500. I upped the RAM on a lot of those computers.... ;)

[Paleo Pete]

Steve is correct, XP System Requirements (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/upgrading/sysreqs.mspx) states 128MB RAM recommended, 64MB minimum which may limit functionality. (NOT a direct quote)

256MB is usually recommended for at least half decent performance, and for most home users needing Internet, word processing and maybe digital camera uploads, 256 works fairly well but is not great in the performance department. I work on them all the time, XP on a 2GHz CPU with 256MB RAM is not uncomfortably sluggish, but is not a high performance system either.

One thing about the Dell (probably others too) advertised cheap prices, their "knowledgeable and friendly" employee who answers the phone is actually a high-pressure SALESPERSON who probably knows ZILCH about computers, or just enough to sell you the "upgrqade" hardware that will drive the price up to over $1000. Their job is to SELL, not assist...and they are good at it...if they want to stay employed more than 3 weeks.

I know of two people who checked into the Dell $500 computer advertised about 2 years ago. One called, ended up paying just over $1700 for that $500 computer, after the "knowledgeable and friendly" employee managed to add in huge monitor (over $300 for a plain CRT, I think 17"), internet keyboard instead of plain jane model, optical mouse, printer etc. The other went to the Dell website and printed out the final purchase order (but DIDN'T click Send) and it came to over $1200 after all the same/similar extras and "upgrades" to the "monitor not included" advertised price. You guessed it, the "monitor not included" part was not only too small to read, but only on-screen for 2-3 seconds along with way too much other legalese to actually read....They avoid false advertising, but only by a few microns...definitely deceptive...

She finally had a machine built by our shop for under $1000 that would beat the Dell machine in performance by a long shot. The trade off is she didn't get all the pre-installed software like M$ Office etc. On the other hand, she DID get reliable, quick and local tech support with a lot more warranty than Dell will even consider, quality parts, upgradability. And a solid machine, yours truly built it...

[papertech]

Just my point, M$ (not Dell, HP, Acer, etc) lowballs the amount of RAM required to run their os's on any system. (Again, effective advertising.)

Personally when a client asks my advice about any computer maker's loss leader product, I tell them that lead price is for a disposable machine that will take them, at best, two years into the future. If they want something that will be upgradeable and take them three to five years forward, expect to pay $1400 - $1800 depending on their intended use and what pre-installed software they want to include.

So, why do we just pick on Dell when all the computer makers follow the same standards in advertising? Dell may be an industry leader now, but how did they get that way? I could definitely start a thread on why not to buy HP, but the negativity might cause us all to get acid reflux!

Kindest regards............

[jlreich]

Although Dell has been the main focus, they are not the only ones being dumped on. But many of use here have had bad experiences with Dell far more than others.

There is one positive thing I can say about Dell. They continue to have support for even their older machines by supplying drivers, firmware, and bios updates. I have a old Inspiron 3700 laptop (1999). I was able to get bios and other updates when XP SP2 was released. :)

Even though I would prefer HP, I looked for updates for a friends old HP (1999), without any luck. :(

[papertech]

Thanks jlreich for the positive point for Dell. And a biggie, too!

I also appreciate the problems and bad experiences many techies face with proprietary systems, including Dell. I've witnessed a couple of problems myself with Dell's telephone tech support.

Kindest regards........

[jlreich]

Keep in mind this does not reflect a change in opinion about Dell. Only one good thing about them. ;)

[papertech]

I understand and am pleased!

[illumina]

I agree 101.9929345 percent that 256 MB is just getting by for WinXP home. When I first got my system (custom), she had 512 and she ran fine, but Win XP still ate up half of the RAM...Now that I have over 1 gig or RAM, she runs like a champ.

[illumina]

I forgot: my mother has a Compaq with 128 RAM with Win XP home...Not good at all. It runs like pure garbage. I had to tweak her system some and it still runs too slow.

Lesson? Get some RAM.

[saphalline]

Wow! A lot of activity here lately! Who would have guessed that this would be such a popular subject! :p

RAM is the sore spot for all OEM systems. No question about that! They always skimp on the RAM. The reason is simple: big PC companies buy parts in bulk, and the price difference between buying a few million sticks of 128MB vs 256MB is quite substantial! Again, it's all about the bottom line. I will say that 256MB is enough for WinXP w/SP2, even for the Pro version, and even with 64MB taken up by the onboard video. In other words, as long as the RAM is more than 128MB, you're OK. ;)

Here's WinXP's RAM requirements as I remember them: 64MB required for the installation, 128MB required to run the OS, more than 128MB required for larger programs to run, 256MB recommended. Not a direct quote, just what I remember from MS's site on this issue. Of course, we all know that 512MB is the minimum sweet spot, but hey, not everyone knows that!

Moving on to other OEM issues...

Yeah, Dell isn't alone in all this "badness" that we like to complain about here on the forums, but I always remember Dell for some of the horrific things they've done. I cannot forgive them for the whole PSU connector debacle! :mad: That was just evil. If you don't know what I'm talking about, search the forums for my rant. ;) That, in essence, is why I hate Dell the most.

OEM's in general also get my vote for the most expensive upgrades in history! I'm on HP's site right now doing a customization of a Pavilion a800y, which comes with 256MB (one stick) of PC2700 DDR RAM standard. Upgrading to 1GB of RAM (2 x 512MB sticks) adds $150 USD! :eek: Why? Two sticks of basic 512MB PC2700 cost about $130 on Newegg, then subtract the cost of the original stick of 256MB and it should be less than $100. Why does HP charge at least 50% more for the same upgrade?? All the OEM's overcharge for upgrades to their systems, and they don't offer many upgrade options to begin with! So if you're willing to settle for their advertised systems as the lowest prices, you can get some great deals on basic throw-away PCs (and then upgrade them as you go along). But if you want to take one of their low-end systems and upgrade it to a decent level, then all you're gonna get is a big CHA-CHING on their end!

One final negative note from me on OEM's. They don't tell you jack about system balancing! Dell, HP, and all the others, will sell people a 3.2GHz P4 system, and then drag it down with 256MB of RAM, a 40GB 5400rpm hard drive, onboard video, and an ancient CD-ROM drive. I've seen them, they're horrible. Yes, a system like this is fine for basic duties and for a throw-away system, but for the same cost, the OEM's could go for a slower CPU and upgrade the rest of the system. Move up to a CD burner at least, double the RAM, maybe get a larger hard drive at 7200rpm, that sort of stuff. The overall quality of the system would then be worlds better, and since they buy parts in bulk, I'm sure they could get the price to be the same. The main problem here is that the OEM's are perpetuating this notion that CPU speed makes a computer better. People then pick up on this and they mistakenly think that a system with only 256MB of RAM and onboard video is really going to be much faster with a 3.6GHz CPU vs the 2.6GHz CPU they have now. In the mean time, my own system only runs at 2.55GHz, but I've got 1GB of dual-channel RAM and a Radeon 9700 Pro vid card, and guess whose system is able to run Doom 3 better? Guess whose system is able to run Photoshop better? :cool: Yeah, I thought so. All the systems I build are balanced and well designed - I would never sell a high-end CPU with crap parts surrounding it. Just doesn't make any sense...

Ok, positive points about the OEM's? Well, although I would never buy one, I can still think of positive points! :D For one, the low-end models are indeed cheap. This serves one big advantage that I don't think has been brought up yet - cheapo PC's help to close the gap between the HAVE's and the HAVE NOT's. Mark my words, this whole technology revolution is really going to bring back the days of "peasants" if we're not careful! There are still tons of people who need access to a computer but don't have it, even here in the USA. It's a proven fact that a lack education and educational opportunities is the major factor in poor, crime infested neighborhoods. If I could afford to build a computer for every poor family in the world, I would do it. Hey, if any of you are willing to pay, I'll even do all the labor involved. I'll even teach them all how to use them, one by one if I had to. I really believe that everyone should have access to computers, but they don't. And this one fact, more than any other, will become the biggest factor in being poor & uneducated as the years roll on. If we, as an industry, don't find a way to literally get a computer in every home, we're gonna face some truly daunting problems in about 10-15 years! AMD is currently experimenting with a tiny, rentable computer (not much power, but hey) that will take the first step towards meeting this goal. I for one aplaud their efforts, and I hope others, including the big OEM's, will pick up on this idea. Maybe that's what they've been trying to do with their cheapo low-end systems, but somehow I don't think their intentions have been entirely philanthropic. :p

[mario]

requires deep differential and infinitive calculus:

lim sin(x)
n --> oo ------ = 6
n
actually limit of it by n tending to OO is infinite so solution is "infinite sex"

[mario]

Actually:
1) lim for n -> oo of sin(x) / n is oo:
2) so oo = 6; so solution should be "infinite sex" :D