Magic Latern

[Ass3mbler]

Hmmmmmm I am sure you all have heard of this new virii/trojan/sniffer, whatever the feddies wanna call it. It is supposed to be able to access your PC and see what kind of e-mail, etc you have been receiveing. The problem I have with this is that with the new "Anti-Terr" bill that was passed. In this bill it states that the feddies not ONLY have the right to access your PC at home but are also NOT responsbile for any damage that they may cause to your PC. In addition to this in the same bill it also states that they "feddies" may access your residence and take "anything" they want at any time they want. And they do NOT have to inform you for 14 days past the time that they have accessed either your computer and or residence. The kicker here, in my opinion of being an ex leo (law enforecement officer) for those that didnt know the abbreviation, is that they do NOT need and are NOT goverened by ANY judicial system. Therefore, they do NOT need a SEARCH WARRANT and or a WIRE TAPPING WARRANT for this.

Why am I writing this? Well #1 I do NOT believe any AGENCY OR THE NSA (NO SUCH AGENCY) should have SUPREME control over what I have on my PC at home. While perusing the norton site tonight/this am I find this http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/trojan.danschl.a.html. Now some group of allededly elitness script kiddies are trying to get themselves some publicity riding on the coat tails of the federal goverment in hopes that they will end up being even more elite then they think they are now. Sorry I have been dealing with virii/trojans for well over 10 years now and a VBS script is just LAME at its best. Again more then my two cents worth but now I will be able to sleep once 7AM comes and I can go home from work. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

------------------
Assembler,

Bow before me for I am r00t

[bassman]

Gee sport, you seem to be a little more than upset that the government might be looking at your BVDs. I suggest if you're that worried about it, you unplug your machine.
I for one don't have a thing to hide and could care less. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

I'm courious, since you are an ex-cop and (obviously) a coding professional, did you pass your english test?

That may seem kinda harsh, but I have a hard time taking any advise from a complainer who can't write. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif


------------------
Please go HERE (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000225.html)
Frank's Place (http://www.members.aol.com/frankscompsrvice)



[This message has been edited by bassman (edited 12-23-2001).]

[Gallaeglagh]

I'm with you Ass3mbler I don't trust the government with unrestricted powers to be snooping around. The problem is where does the erosion of privacy end. The bill is meant to protect against terrorism but most likely will not. Furthermore it'll most likely be knocked down by the courts as unconstitutional

I did read an interesting lil' twist on this a couple days ago. Evidently this vbs script could quickly be reverse engineered and exploited by the script kiddies and their ilk. Now where does that leave the Anti Virus software companies? Certainly they couldn't ignore it so they'd have to classify it as a virus and include it in their definitions

------------------
To Beer, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems - Homer Simpson

[YODA74]

I Feel the pain on this But it is a time of war, which gives the feds an absolut power at this time,so if you have something to hide ? well,But if you don't want them in your house then You have to take appropriate action this is still America Not a Police state,just make sure you have Brass Cahoonas,Laws on paper do not excede the laws of existance,It's called you come to my house with a lame excuse and it will be a gun battle.And once one person hits the ground then it does not matter what happens after that.What there doing is nothing new it's just being publicised more they have had no knock laws on the books for years (since the late 70's)so just be careful what you do on the internet and get a monitering device that lets you know when big brother is listening you can pick one up for around $184.00 at any security store.

------------------
Treading,Troden,Trails
HERE (http://www.davematthewsband.com)

[ErnieK]

I have no opinions on the FBI being able to access computers within the US, that is down to Americans as individuals to deal with. BUT! I stay in the UK and they will also be able to access all computers here. This I strongly object to. It will mean that the US will then be able to snoop on anybody throught the world who has AV software installed. What, or who, gives them the right to do this? If you were to be caught spying you would be sent to prison. This is what the FBI will be doing with the US goverments full backing. And aslo with the permission of, in my case, the British goverment.
I reiterate what I have said in the past, I have nothing to hide, BUT NO-ONE has the right to access my, or anyone's, computer without my \ their permission. It is bad enought that the UK goverment has given themselves the right too access my mails, without a foriegn goverment, it makes no difference which nationality, going even further and openly saying that they are going to give themselves the abillity to scan all computers world wide. Because this is exactly what it means. The major AV software manufacturers are all saying that they will build this spyware into their programs. I for one will try to find one that does not do so. The excuse being used is to track down terrorists. Codswallop! Any one with anything to hide will just use encription programs on a computer not set too access the net. After encription they will just have to attache to an e-mail. This way nothing will show on the computer on the net. I mean no offence to Americans in general, and in specific to those in these forums. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

------------------
Ernie

[Gallaeglagh]

What there doing is nothing new it's just being publicised more they have had no knock laws on the books for years [/QUOTE]

The difference being that no knock raids still require a search warrant.



------------------
To Beer, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems - Homer Simpson

[YODA74]

Yes but all they need is reasonable suspision they can obtain a warrent just on a tip from a neighbor,they do not need hard cold evidence.

Wisconsin court said that the "possibility for violence" can be minimized by allowing police to rely on "unannounced, dynamic entry" -- though it's a good bet that the judges don't expect police to carry out such raids in the judges' neighborhoods.
Even in states where search warrants require a knock on the door before entry, police routinely disregard that formality. In a 1991 corruption trial, a former Los Angeles policeman testified that the accused officers falsely reported that they had complied with the knock-and-announce rule. In reality they violated the rule in 97 percent of the search warrents they executed.
No knock raids in response to alleged narcotics violations presume that the government should have practically unlimited power to endanger some people's lives in order to control what others ingest. "The right to batter down a door apparently includes the right to kill any citizen who tries to stop the police from forcibly entering his or her home."




------------------
Treading,Troden,Trails
HERE (http://www.davematthewsband.com)

[fixrupr]

We in the U.S.A. have checks and balances built into the system. This suspension of some of our rights is the only way out of this mess.
Lighten up. We’ll not have “Ruby Ridge “ incident becoming the norm.

I believe most whiners have computers filled with pirated software, porno, and info that is evidence of illegal activities. Go ahead, claim you don’t! I’m not the one that’s paranoid here.

I am perfectly willing to carry an ID with all my data on it.

The extremists (including NRA, Right to lifers, etc. etc.) are suspect in my opinion, and I want them watched using any method necessary. I trust “the authorities” more than a group of whackos that has stores of automatic weapons and bombs.

Some of you can have your own “Ruby Ridge “ over this issue, but
INCLUDE ME OUT!

I prefer submitting my PC to a “strip search” to sending umpteen generations of our kids to fight hand to hand with terrorists of any kind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone. "
---- Al Capone ----

[bassman]

All some very real and scary scenarios. The quick issue warrant based on a neighbors tip(not really that easy), the not knocking when they are supposed to raids, the government keeping an eye on you while you're not looking.
Local, state and federal police are governed by some fairly strick rules and sometimes those rules are broke(kinda like the ones broke by the people they are really looking at), and sometimes those violations even get overlooked.
But the Federal government has ALWAYS had Cart Blanch over our singularly minuscule lives. These new laws and tools are being used to prevent freaks like bin Laden from using our own free systems against us.
I don't like the idea of anyone spying on me, but I will gladly give up the concept of that right of privacy to maintain the other freedoms we so enjoy. The idea that this is something new is preposterous. If you beleive in them, even EVE spied on ADAM http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
I am not saying "Don't concern yourselves with this", just "Don't over concern yourselves." It's the man who feels that everyone is looking over his shoulder, is really the only one looking over his shoulder.

There is not enough manpower in the government to spy on everyone, so they will focus their attention on real targets. These "sniffer" programs are looking for a sign, a key, a red flag. If you don't have one, they don't care about you.

And like Yoda said, when they come for you, be sure they know it wasn't easy http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Ass3mbler, again, I appologize for being harsh. Someone who states the credentials you do should be doing it better than some others. Stick around if you will. I think your experience with virus issues can be invaluable to this forum http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

edit:That was beautiful Fixrupr

------------------
Please go HERE (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000225.html)
Frank's Place (http://www.members.aol.com/frankscompsrvice)

[This message has been edited by bassman (edited 12-23-2001).]

[Gallaeglagh]

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Just a reminder of what the US Constitution says.

------------------
To Beer, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems - Homer Simpson

[fixrupr]

"I confess that there are several parts of this Constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them. For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise."

--Benjamin Franklin, 1787


"The Constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the Judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please."

--Thomas Jefferson

[Gallaeglagh]

fixrupr, I like the old quotes.

The one by Jefferson is pretty much the way this country runs - the executive and particulary the legislative create laws and then the courts interpet, support or strike down those laws. And yes the Constitution can be looked at as a ball of wax to be shaped but still fundamentally it is the same.

Or maybe we can get into a Simpsons quote "why can't we just change the constitution?"

------------------
To Beer, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems - Homer Simpson

[Ghost_Hacker]

I'm not worried about anyone snooping around in my systems. Not only do I have nothing to hide but nobody would waste the time needed to break into my computer without me knowing about it.

I belive that we will have to give up the right "not to be seen" in order to secure our "way of life".


If your worried about the "Feds" sneaking around in your computer. Then I suggest that you learn something about computer security. There is plenty of free software that with a little knowhow can help you to monitor and secure your systems. There are also plenty of web sites that can help those just starting out.


Or ,if your really worried, just do what the goverment does with it's most secured computers. Don't connect them to any outside networks.

[kayofcircles]

fixrupr : I wish to place a mild objection to "I believe most whiners have computers filled with pirated software, porno, and info that is evidence of illegal activities. Go ahead, claim you don’t!" Well, Sweetie, the truth is that I don't. There is nothing on my puter that we haven't purchased, or is freeware..and there is nothing illegal, pornographic, or even objectionable BUT that doesn't translate to me being thrilled/happy/or even resigned about some stranger pawing through my stuff. I am not an anti-government person, nor one who sees conspiracy everywhere, but I am also not comfortable with the idea that we must give up individual rights/privacy for security. So, my final whining comment is this: I do think we're looking at yet another slippery slope, and I pray that we don't end up on the bottom of it.

[iisbob]

Started to get a little hot under the collar when i read this post.

But...instead of stoking the fire, or spitting vitrol-i'll just say this;

If it wasn't for Whiners, aka steve jobs, etc., YOU wouldn't have ANY pc to play with, any email to send/recieve, any kinda of personal computer as you know it!

Because a few Whiners were willing to buck the big blue { IBM }, who are very cozy with the goverment by the way, you have the ability to post on these forums.


I've been guilty of, and continue to do so, of cracking software-that's how i originally learned to program; i've hacked many a PC in my younger days-that's what gave me the necessary skills and knowledge to become a system adminstrator ( and you bet i put it on my resume!-of course it's worded politically correct http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ). And you bet i've got " illegal " software ( though none of the porn trash-i've got a beautiful, sexy wife ) and it's NO ONES business that it's there! especially the goverment! Their ONLY responsibility is to defend the borders and regulate interstate/international commerce! NOT to be in mine or any citizens business!

This baloney of " increased " security for the protection of the innocent is B*ll! Just an excuse for some power hungry politicians to make headway in the goverment and line their own pockets!

OK...i think that's enough. Time for me to step off the soapbox and cool down.

Have a merry Xmas all of you!

------------------
iisbob
""I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know."
Mark Twain

[fixrupr]

Kay,
Point taken, though my inclusion of the word “may”, I believe, covers my butt re not trying to categorize those honest folks that, like you, have valid concerns on this issue. I agree with the notion that carte-blanche powers cannot be granted to the “feddies” but let’s not hobble their actions re getting the necessary information to stop the terrorists.

Bob,
Whiners didn’t build what we’ve got, doers did.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. "
----- General George Patton (1885-1945)-----

[sea69]

bassman:
There is not enough manpower in the government to spy on everyone, so they will focus their attention on real targets. These "sniffer" programs are looking for a sign, a key, a red flag. If you don't have one, they don't care about you.

Think about this. The normal/average user probably doesn't have anything worth investigating, however- that type user is EXACTLY the type that will be spoofed by the bad guys!

I also am unconvinced that the average user does NOT have a bit of porn and non-purchased software in their machines!!!

I do not buy the theory projected that we are all "saints" or merely use our pc's to conduct business, use word processing apps, and play games that we have ALL PAID FOR.

Now, I'm not saying that this is right wrong or whatever but that's the way it really is.

Therefore, if some of choose to have these "illegal" things - then they will have to aware of the possible consequenses!!

Here they used to have to HAVE PERMISSION TO CROSS THE THRESHOLD of anyones residence. Not anymore. Now, they can enter ANYWHERE at ANYTIME if the peace officer feels there is probable cause>> hence, if a cop in my 'hood' is chasing a crackhead murderer, and he runs into my house, the cop can legally follow him and if I have anything consequently going on IN THE PRIVACY OF MY OWN HOME then I too can be locked up or shot.

The problem with the above scenario is that both the crackhead and the cop would be shot by me.

As to the original point of this topic, I personally have no problem with the gov announcing to everyone what they have been already doing for a number of years (non-disclosed)

We need to protect our lifes and lifestyle and >>
bassman (again)
I don't like the idea of anyone spying on me, but I will gladly give up the concept of that right of privacy to maintain the other freedoms we so enjoy. The idea that this is something new is preposterous.


I agree.

I also would add that I do not think this topic is inappropriate, I do however think it innappropriate to ridicule anyone elses opinion.

That, after all is what this is all about.

Freedom

iisbob- HEAR- HEAR!!

fixrupr:
Bob,
Whiners didn’t build what we’ve got, doers did.

again opinions are like parts of the anatomy EVERYONES got them

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 12-24-2001).]

[Lucias_Clay]

I'm courious, since you are an ex-cop and (obviously) a coding professional, did you pass your english test?

That may seem kinda harsh, but I have a hard time taking any advise from a complainer who can't write. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[/QUOTE]

bass I sure am dissappointed in you, if proper english was the main requirment here I'm afraid there wouldn't be many folks here.
everybody has the right to have an opinion and to state it even if they don't spell correctly.Even the greats like 'Pete' some times flub on thier english a litle and probably you also if you were to look back on all your responses.



------------------
"It's not my fault!"

[bassman]

HMMMM. At the risk of starting a Bonfire, I will respond.
As both of you have stated, we all have a right to our opinion. Does this not include me?
I apologized for being harsh in my statement to Ass3mbler about his/her poor spelling. I also gave an explanation as to why I felt that way (his/her stated capabilities). This was not based on a few typos. I have read at leased a half dozen of his/her posts. I believe that this person is intelligent and competent. I also believe this person practices what I call “internet illiteracy.” Where typos and poor use of the English language are acceptable.
I am very much aware that there are people here who don’t speak English as their first language and am very understanding and accepting of their efforts to get their message across. I feel it is very brave and commendable for some of these folks to make this effort in order to get the help we offer here.
That is what this site is about! I am not above mistakes and never made any comments to indicate this. I do however use the tools available to me to reduce them and try to reread and correct my posts carefully.

Now back to the topic at hand.
Sea, you and I have had these discussions before and I am very much aware of your feelings on this topic. I respect your feelings whether I agree with them or not. Lucias, I am now aware of your feelings on this, and extend the same respect.
I did not criticize Ass3mbler for his beliefs. I made a suggestion on how to better deal with his concerns on this issue.
Just a note to anyone who feels that, because you think it should be a RIGHT, does not mean that it is. I see quotes from the constitution, and quotes from some of those who wrote on it. Be sure you know exactly what it says and what changes have been made to it before you start reading your own beliefs into it.

I prefer submitting my PC to a “strip search” to sending umpteen generations of our kids to fight hand to hand with terrorists of any kind. Thanks again Fixrupr

This is not a perfect system, and anyone who feels your right to privacy should not be compromised under any circumstances is wrong. Your duty as an American, to endure the necessary conditions, in order to preserve our society and other freedoms, should outweigh your need for what you think are your rights.
If that doesn’t work for you, try another system.
If you fear that your government is being to intrusive, then here is a quote I just overheard while writing this, “Do not let your fears imprison you, learn what you can do to face them or protect yourself from them.”
There are two things in life that truly scare me. One is paranoid people who spread their propaganda and further fuel their unsubstantiated fears. The other is going hungry http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I think I have said enough on this. I do not want to create any enemies around here because of my feelings. If Ass3mbler has anything to say to me on this, I would gladly respond to him. That is who my original post was directed at.
I will not shy away from anyone who would like to talk further in another place, but I feel this one is getting a bit off topic http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


------------------
Please go HERE (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000225.html)
Frank's Place (http://www.members.aol.com/frankscompsrvice)

[Gallaeglagh]

Back to the original gist of this post - should the US government really go about placing viruses in computers? My feeling is that if a search warrant can be issued sure go ahead. But what most likely will happen is the feds will misuse this power by doing such things as messing with seperated/divorced partners computers and never getting close to any terrorists.

------------------
When in doubt search on Google

[iisbob]

you've got it all confused fixrupr; the whiners are the doers-re: the patriots in the american revolution, the efforts of individuals in the civil rights movement, these are some of the individuals who " whined " about the problems and then did something about them.

Same with steve & Bill-though MS has now become the Big Blue of the modern era.



------------------
iisbob
""I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know."
Mark Twain

[diurnal]

I think Ghosthacker is in the best postion to answer questions of this nature, so what he says ill go with that. As ass3mbler, sounds like your a hacker yourself, that looks like a hacker name. Are you.? Well i didnt read really most of this post, to much for me. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif
See ya

------------------
Sledgehammer will save the day!

[YODA74]

Throw some humor in it and think of what we have here This is a fine country.

socialism
You have two cows.
Give one cow to your neighbor.

Communism
You have two cows.
Give both cows to the government,and they may give you some milk.

Fascism
You have two cows.
You give all the milk to the government,and the government sells it.

Nazim
You have two cows.
The government shoots you and takes both cows.

Anarchism
You have two cows.
Keep both of the cows,shoot the government agent and steal another cow.

Capitalism
You have two cows.
Sell one and buy a Bull.

Surrealism
You have two giraffes. The government makes you take harmonica lessons.

------------------
Treading,Troden,Trails
HERE (http://www.davematthewsband.com)

[bassman]

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Please go HERE (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000225.html)
Frank's Place (http://www.members.aol.com/frankscompsrvice)

[ErnieK]

Did you know that giraffes have no vocal cords! Now ain't that interesting? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Ernie

[pentachris]

A few things I want to throw into the mix...

The government that governs the least governs the best. Unless the government has probable cause to believe that I am doing harm to the person or property of a child or non-consenting adult, it has no business in my business.

Now, I understand that these are idealistic propositions and not always compatible with real world situations. However, we can and should (IMO) keep them in mind when making laws and policies.

Having said that, I (basically, overall, in general, with a few notable exceptions http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif) trust our government to use the tools and power at its disposal wisely. Additionally, I doubt it would be worth the time and money for them to pursue or investigate the average joe with a few pirated programs (that he's not reproducing for a profit) or non-child pornography files. We're fighting terrorism to preserve a free society, and we've got more than a few folks in Washington who know that.

------------------
...
If my computer were the eighth dwarf, it would be Dumpy.
-Chris

[Steve]

Evnin' Folks,

I'd like to add my .02 here.

I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said "those who desire to give up freedom to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either". Or something like that.

I agree. I can deal with the rapists and robbers and terrorists better than I can deal with an out of control government! I don't want the government in my personal business. I'll take care of that, thank you.

I see this country as a place to have the utmost in freedom. Not the utmost in security. Or maybe the utmost in freedom IS the utmost in security.

It's a wild and woolie world. Take care.

------------------
Peace and Love, brothers and sisters. Peace and Love

[This message has been edited by Steve (edited 12-31-2001).]

[hiredgoonz]

An issue that nobody has touched upon yet is how pointless the monitoring programs will be...in order to catch criminals it would have to be installed on a whole lot of systems and if you're a criminal with a lot to hide, methinks you may have some security, ala Ghosthacker, to prevent it.

(not saying GH has anything to hide, just pointing out that many people know how to secure their systems, some do it for privacy and protection from crackers, some do it to hide illegal acty.)

All of this is just a knee-jerk overreaction to getting caught with our pants down on Sept. 11. Everyone in power wants to know "what happened" and who is to blame, so now there is a mad scramble to look busy with security so you don't end being a scapegoat.

Where were the air marshalls? Where were the US fighter jets that used to routinely patrol our borders? Either of these, or both in conjunction, may have averted the tragedy or at least lessened it, but alas, neither was available. Ever the hear the phrase "locking the barn door after the cows are gone" ?

Anyone who has had a job should get what I'm saying. Something bad happens, it could have been avoided, but procedures were too relaxed, so the result is a swing (generally too far) towards measures to prevent it. After time, as memory fades, things end up going back to the way they were before. And the door is wide open again.

This is the same thing with our newfound security concerns. A little effort to begin with could have saved all of those lives, but now we're making up for it with double security. It's like wearing two condoms AFTER you get your girlfriend pregnant. It accomplishes nothing.

The terrorists realize all of this...they are going to lay low for awhile, they certainly will listen to the news and secure their computers (if they hadn't already) when they find out the FBI is using Carnivore or Magic Lantern. They will use encryption to secure their communications and they will study our security looking for holes.

The answer to this is not to pry into John Q. Public's computer. It is to have REAL airline security: air marshalls and x-ray EVERY bag. Customs needs to actually inspect shipments (to prevent the import of, oh, I don't know, a nuke for example) Do a little research on customs procedures, very interesting.

Did you know that the FBI has had tapes of militant Islamic conventions, held in the US, where the topic of discussion was the destruction of the US??? These tapes have been widely available for years, I saw them during a terrorism class at U. of Md. The same Muslims who want to destroy us, use our freedoms to freely plan their activities. Why were these individuals not placed under closer scrutiny? Because it's against the law. Even those under investigation, had little trouble conducting business as usual.

So basically, this is where we stand: we can now break the law and violate the constitution to invade everyone's privacy because we let the real criminals stand untouched in their blanket of US freedom for years. It smacks of window-dressing to me. Looks good to the boss when he's looking for answers, but doesn't get a whole lot done.

To reiterate wht GH said, if you're worried about security, do some research and secure your system. Run a firewall and examine your logs. Linux is ideal for this...

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.