Norton Ghost /External HDD problems

[FastLearner]

Hi all. I have recently installed Norton Ghost on my laptop (from the System Works 2004 package) since I would like to be able to create image backups and store them on an external HDD. I have a 60GB TrekStor DataStation USB 2.0 external drive.

A little background:
I have successfully created and formatted 2 partitions on the external drive (one for a system backup and one for file backup, U and V drives in My Computer, respectively)) - both partitions are much larger than the partitions I'm trying to back up, BTW.

I backed up my files (from my D:\ drive) easily using Windows explorer (copy and paste), but I'm having problems using Ghost to create a drive image of my system partition (C:\ drive).

I'm getting the Error Code 40204 when I reboot into PC Dos mode, which suggests that the correct drivers are not loading at bootup. If I boot all the way into Windows, however, I see my drive (and its two partitions) under My Computer, and Device Manager shows all is working well. I can save to or retrieve data from either partition (both NTFS formatted). One strategy I thought of that might fix the problem would be to let Norton Ghost create a boot disk with USB drivers on it, but I don't have a floppy drive on my laptop, so that wouldn't do me much good.

Any suggestions? I'd really be able to sleep better at night if I could back up my data (oh yeah, and be able to restore it too...:) )

Thanks.

[Sylvander]

The problem is that the external drive can only be accessed when Windows has been loaded, the USB drivers loaded, and the external drive then accessible.
If you tell Ghost to save a backup [of C:] to a drive that cannot be accessed from DOS, then it will fail.
One solution is to tell it to save the backup image file to a partition on an internal drive that is accessible from DOS.
Then you could [from within Windows] move the file to the external drive.
But how then to use that file to restore the C: partition if Windows won't boot?
Ummmmm,
You could keep any old working backup of [a minimalist copy of] C: on a partition other than C: on an internal HDD, and restore that using a copy of Ghost run from a bootable CD made using "floppy emulation" [I'm no expert on that]. That because you have no FDD.
Then once that copy of Windows is restored and working you could boot into Windows, move a selected backup from the external drive to an internal drive, and then restore that using Ghost from your bootable CD.

Does that make sense to you? :D

If you know how to load USB drivers from a floppy, then perhaps you could include those on the bootable CD?

I have a similar situation to you except:
I'm using "HP Simple Backup" [run from "msconfig Diagnostic Mode"] to backup a minimalist C: partition to CD-RW disks.
I can restore that from the CD's using "HP Simple Backup" [run from "Disaster Recovery" floppies], and once Windows is working can access the external HDD and use "MS Backup" to make backups to files on the external HDD.
I've not yet tried restoring any of these, but see no reason why it wouldn't work.

[FastLearner]

Hi Sylvander. I guess that's what I had suspected all along. The web support forums are FULL of posts from people with USB external drive compatibility issues. I guess what you're saying makes sense, but it leaves me with a few extra questions.

1) Would the .gho image file on my internal drive need its own partition, or could I safely store that on my D:\ drive (which contains my personal files) and copy/paste it to my U:\ drive for redundancy?
2) I'm not too clear on the "restore" portion of all of this. Without a floppy disk, this could be a dangerous undertaking... even if I have a .gho image on my D: drive and my U: drive, if I can't load into Windows, I'm hurting. Or is this not the case?
3) Are there any programs that you're aware of that would not need to have Windows loaded in order to access my external drive? I like Ghost, but if it's not the right tool for the job...

[Sylvander]

First I should say that I'm no great expert on the use of backup imaging programs.

"Would the .gho image file on my internal drive need its own partition"
No, it just needs to be off the partition that it's going to be used to restore.
You cannot restore a partition that holds the image file your using to do that.

"could I safely store that on my D:\ drive"
Yes, if it's the C: partition your trying to restore.

"and copy/paste it to my U:\ drive for redundancy?"
You wouldn't need multiple backups on D: with identical copies of those on U:
You wouldn't need redundant copies.
The single backup on D: could be any old backup [that didn't need a copy on U:], just so long as it would make Windows boot.
Then you'd keep all the REAL backups of C: on U:
The versions that are important that is; that include all the stuff you really need.


" I'm not too clear on the "restore" portion of all of this."
That's not surprising; it's a rather convoluted process.
Here it is again:
1. If you cannot load the USB drivers in DOS, then you cannot access the external HDD using the DOS version of Ghost.
2. So the image file you intend to restore needs to be moved or copied from the external HDD [U:] to the internal HDD [D:] and that can only be done from within Windows [with the USB drivers loaded and the exernal drive accessible].
3. Once that's done then Ghost can be run from a floppy [or a substitute bootable CD] to restore C: using the image file on D:
4. If Windows won't boot you cannot do any of this.
5. So you keep permanently on the internal HDD [D:], some copy of a backup image of C:
This copy of C: is unimportant just so long as it will produce a bootable version of Windows that will give you access to the external HDD to retrieve a good backup of C:.

"Without a floppy disk, this could be a dangerous undertaking..."
You'd be ok if you could manage to make a bootable Ghost CD, or alternatively use a bootable Ghost floppy to make a bootable CD.
I was reading a post where Paul Komski + another were explaining how to do that. Search for his name and "floppy emulation".

"Or is this not the case?"
Correct, it's not the case.
So long as you have [on D:] an image of C: that will produce a bootable Windows, then you can boot into windows, retrieve a good backup of C:, then shut down, boot from the Ghost CD, and restore the selected image.
I suppose you could always keep a copy of the latest backup of C: on D: and keep all the older copies on U:

"Are there any programs that you're aware of that would not need to have Windows loaded in order to access my external drive?"
'Fraid I don't.
Do you have a CD or DVD burner?
Won't Ghost save the image file to optical disk[s]?
What I do is keep C: small [holds only "Windows" & "Program Files" folders + odds] and backup C: to CD-RW disks. So the essential backups are on CD's. Those give me a bootable restoration of Windows, then I can access the external HDD.
You should investigate the possibility of loading the drivers from the bootable Ghost CD.

I've been looking at EBCD from http://ebcd.pcministry.com/
Ghost could be added to that CD [and possibly the USB drivers too], but I haven't yet figured out how to do it.
Paul Komski knows, and I asked him to give a lecture in a thread.
He suggested I ask for help in a thread and others could help.
I'm trying to work up to that.
My understanding so far:
1. Download compressed archive and unzip it.
2. Add your own program files to a new folder that you add to the supplied folders.
3. Make alterations to the configuration files to include the new prog's.
4. Use the supplied executable to make those into an ".iso" file that you burn to CD [R or RW] using Nero or some other.
5. When the CD is booted the added prog's are on the menu and can be run by clicking on it. So Ghost could be one of those.

I have a working copy of the EBCD and it boots just fine, but seems rather strange to me. It includes "Image" which will make image file backups, but I cannot get it to work [just like Ghost & Drive Image & Partition Magic] because I have have "Dynamic Drive Overlay" software in use. It has 32 DOS progs included and lots of other stuff.

[FastLearner]

Hi Sylvander. Thanks for breaking that down in an easy-to-understand way.

hmmm. I do have a CD RW drive that I could also use, but then what would I need the external drive for then?...:) No, seriously, you're right in that creating backups on CD RWs might have been the way to go in my case, but I've done that on another system and the restoration from CD took forever - plus one needs to constantly swap CDs in and out. Not that it's a bad method, but it's the one I was trying to improve upon by setting myself up with an external drive. USB 2.0 is great as a connection type, but if it relies on the underlying (or should I say overlying) Operating System to function properly, then it's probably not the best choice for backups.

Anyway you were correct (as usual). I was able to successfully create a backup image of my C: drive and save it to my D: drive (took all of about 10 minutes, where writing directly to DVD with my desktop computer used to take over an hour). I then easily was able to copy and paste the files to my U:drive. I like your idea of using my D: drive for the most recent backup and the U: drive to contain a few older backups - thanks for that tip!

I guess all that's left for me to do now is to create a CD that I can boot from that can run Ghost in the event my Windows installation gets hosed. I'm going to do a search for that thread you mentioned by Paul K... Wish me luck. I'll let you know if I need some help translating Paul's instructions back down to my level...:D

[FastLearner]

Are you talking about thisthread?

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37410&highlight=floppy+emulation

If so, I don't know if that's the answer to my problem. I actually don't want to boot into DOS, I would like to be able to boot into Norton Ghost if possible (as I used to be able to do with Ghost's boot floppies). Is it really true that Symantec does not offer such an image to download? Why not? It just does not make any sense to me that it should be so easy with Ghost to create a bootable floppy but make it so hard to create a bootable CD Rom for those without FDDs (to boot into Ghost). That looks like a heckuva lot of work just to make a bootable disk that brings me to DOS. And then what? How to start Ghost if the hard drive happens to be hosed and I'm trying to restore my system onto a new drive, for example? Maybe I will just use the CD RW drive for backups, but Symantec really needs to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that many newer laptops (unfortunately) don't come with FDDs, and provide a way to boot for these particular customers. Oh sure, I could get a USB Floppy Drive for my laptop, but then I've already (I think) wasted 100 bucks on an external USB drive.

[Sylvander]

There is yet another method of getting a bootable installation of Windows so as to gain access to the backups on U:

1. You copy the Windows [which version?] installation files to a partition other than C: and run the installation from there to confirm it [either that or register that as the location of the files]. A beneficial side effect of that is that whenever Windows needs any files from those it will fetch in a millisecond with no fuss.
2. Whenever you need a bootable installation of Windows [with USB drivers] you just re-format C: and run the installation from those copies of the files.
3. That gets you into Windows to fetch a suitable backup, and then you restore that, which gives you all the extras.
4. With that method you could use Windows own "MS Backup".

[Fruss Tray Ted]

What about Knoppix to run from the cd and access the external drive with that? Does anyone know off hand if Ghost will perform using Knoppix?

If all one needs to do is take an image and paste it to the C: drive, then I would think the 'portable penguin' would do the trick. :)

[Sylvander]

"Are you talking about this thread?"
Yes.

"I would like to be able to boot into Norton Ghost if possible (as I used to be able to do with Ghost's boot floppies)."
I'm no expert on this but:
I think it's possible to produce a bootable [Ghost] CD that behaves just like a bootable [Ghost] floppy; hence the "Floppy Emulation".
But I think that's wasting all that space on the CD.
That's why I like the ESCD.
Imagine booting from that and being presented with a menu of prog's that includes "Ghost". You choose Ghost and it runs and you do what needs done.
That CD could become your "Universal Fix-It CD".

"Is it really true that Symantec does not offer such an image to download?"
I believe so.
Some time back I searched for a backup prog that included the ability to make a bootable CD from which to run the prog to restore a backup in an emergency.
Came up with a modern German Prog; cannot remember its name at the moment. It looked pretty good. Could find it again if you want.

"Why not?"
Not up-to-date enough?
One of the others I noticed ran the restore prog from the HDD!
That's no good if the HDD is useless.

"How to start Ghost if the hard drive happens to be hosed and I'm trying to restore my system onto a new drive, for example?"
Like my son, you have no FDD, and in that situation you MUST have a bootable CD methinks. If your old HDD was finished and you fitted a new HDD, you'd need to install Windows using a bootable CD, then boot into Windows, fetch a backup from the external HDD onto one of your new partitions, and restore it using some program on a bootable CD.
The key is the bootable CD, and I'd like it if ALL of those were on the same bootable CD. Hence my interest in the EBCD.

"I've already (I think) wasted 100 bucks on an external USB drive."
Don't be too quick to write it off; if you find a method of loading the USB drivers so as to get access to that drive, then it will become really useful once again. And even if you don't, it is still useful, if rather a nuisance to access. And it does have the advantage of offering lots of space.
I'm assuming that this is a laptop and there's no space for a 2nd internal IDE HDD.

[Sylvander]

I have Knoppix on a CDRW disk and it works great and looks good; booted up 1st time and I came onto the PC Guide using its own copy of Firefox!
Vazooom!
I haven't yet figured out exactly how it works and what it can do.
It seems to run in a RAMdrive, loads all its own drivers and enables all the hardware [including USB?], but I didn't see it accessing [or able to manipulate] any other drives on the PC.
Seems like because it runs from a CD, it's trapped in its own little world disconnected from the greater environment of the other drives.
Perhaps I should study it more closely.

[FastLearner]

Thanks Sylvander! You've definitely given me some things to think about...:) Are you suggesting that Knoppix might be an easy way out of this?

[Sylvander]

"Are you suggesting that Knoppix might be an easy way out of this?"
I doubt it, but I may be wrong, need to explore it some more, previously I didn't see any way to manipulate the contents of other drives, but that may be because I don't know my way around in that environment. I'll take a look and get back ASAP.

[Sylvander]

See this http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?p=230823#post230823

[Sylvander]

I see no way of accessing the HDD from this.
There was a "Root Folder" with the FDD and the [folders on the] CD accessible.

You'll see from that thread that the method suggested for making image files involves using Linux and typed commands.
Too complex for me I'm afraid, I like to use a GUI and click on icons to get things done.

The EBCD looks to have potential. :)

[FastLearner]

Thanks for looking into that, sylvander. I think you're onto something with the EBCD...:)

[david eaton]

I downloaded Knoppix, and running it on my older Win98 machine I was able to access and manipulate files on the hard drive with no problems.
I don't know, as yet, if it can see NTFS partitions tho'.

[Sylvander]

Are you running it from a CD?
[Or is it installed on the HDD?]

Which Application is used to access the HDD?
I'd like to be able to do this using the OS booted from the CD. :)

[Fruss Tray Ted]

When I boot to my Knoppix cd, the partitions are all on the desktop and I just click on them to open them and do whatever you want from there.

What I have not figured how to do is to see the usb ports or any device connected to them. I can find no similar thing to 'My Computer' where the devices attached are usually displayed in Windows. Nor can I find anything like Device Manager.

[Sylvander]

I don't see anything on the "desktop" other than an image of a ceiling with a lit sign hanging from it saying "Knoppix in use".
Could my difficulty be caused by the fact that my HDD has DDO software installed on it?
There is a taskbar at the bottom of the screen with enormous numbers of strangely named programs accessible from it [most of them meaningless to me].

Probably I should come back here using Firefox from within Knoppix.

[Sylvander]

Back again using Firefox from within Knoppix 3.8 [running in a RAMdrive] booted from the CD.

I got:
Error - Kdesktop
The process for the file protocol Died unexpectedly.

Perhaps that's why I see no desktop?

What is Konqueror? Alternative web browser?

Will keep browsing.

[Sylvander]

Back again using Konqueror from within Knoppix.

This certainly supplies lots of progs!
K->System->Info Center only provides detailed info on all devices in the system. Doesn't allow the user to install drivers etc.

[Sylvander]

Used K->System->File Manager to access:
FDD : ok
CDROM : ok
HDD : not ok, Could not mount device. Could not determine the file system type, and none was specified.

I wonder if I could boot from the HDD, wait for DDO to load, choose to boot from FDD, boot from Startup floppy, run the Knoppix CD Autorun.exe?
Would that result in the DDO running bfore Knoppix loads and give access to the HDD?

[Sylvander]

Nope, that didn't work. :(

[david eaton]

It looks as if Knoppix cannot understand the MBR with DDO software in use. Unless the maker of the DDO software also make a Linux version :rolleyes:

[Sylvander]

Yet another reason to have yet another try at eliminating DDO by installing an IDE controller.
Previous time [and the 1st time] I tried it the shop gave me a RAID controller and I made the mistake of removing the DDO BEFORE switching the drive over to the new controller card and it didn't work. :(
I'll try to work up to giving it another try. :)

[Paul Komski]

Not sure which version of Ghost comes bundled with System works 2004. The latest versions are a hash of Ghost + (the taken over) DriveImage. Only the latest versions support NTFS as far as I know though I dont use Ghost not being a fan of things Symantec and Norton. USB and Firewire support are the other problem areas from a cursory look around in Google.

I would suggest you try BootIt-NG from http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html and get large drive, ntfs, usb and firewire support from a bootable floppy or CD (or from the hdd itself if you install it as a boot manager).

You don't need to install the boot manager so just cancel that part of the installation and go into maintenance mode each time you want to partition, image or restore. Choose copy to make a cloned image and choose image to create a compressed image. Then paste the result where you want it on a HDD, CD or DVD. I think you have to enable USB/Firewire in the settings section by clicking a check box there; I did for it to support a 1gig USB pen drive.

If you decide to try it out and have any problems understanding how to use it then do post back.

I've never added Ghost to an EBCD and although this was once straightforward I would have to check whether the newer DriveImage-based version would work in the same way as before. If, on the other hand, Ghost could be added to a BartPE then I would imagine seeing the USB drive should not be a problem.

Part of the problem with Knoppix (unless someone knows how to safely add the windows ntfs drivers to it) is that it shoud be able to read but not write to ntfs partitions.

[Paul Komski]

Forgot to mention for clarity's sake that, with BiNG, after you go into Maintenance Mode that you go to the Settings button to enable USB before using the Partition Work Button. Also should you install it onto the HDD you will need to have at lease a small FAT partition somewhere and dont choose the option to have more than four primary partitons.

[FastLearner]

Great info! Thanks Paul. BootIT-NG it is...:) I'll let you know if I run into any problems along the way...

Thanks again.

[pawprint]

FastLearner,

1)Open up Norton Ghost 2003
2)select options
3)select external storage driver settings
4)select USB 2.0 drivers
5)make sure Assign drive letters box is checked

To create a backup to your USB HDD drive:

1)Open up Norton Ghost 2003
2)select backup
3)select next using backup wizard mode
4)select C drive in the source window, and select file for destination
5)click next
6)click on browse button next to image file name box
7)click on drop down arrow in save in box
8)select either your U or V partition to send the backup image to
9)select the create a new folder inside the USB HDD partition, and name it Ghost Images for example
10)click on new folder to open it up
11)select the create a new folder inside the USB HDD partition, and name it 05_31_05 for example
12)click on the folder to save your .gho image into
13)type in 05_31_05 for the file name, and select save
14)check path of image file name before clicking next. If you are using the v partition, the path should be
V:\Ghost Images\05_31_05\05_31_05.gho
15)Image description should read: Backup image of Disk 1 with partition C
Backup taken on 5/31/2005
16)click next: A device Information box shows any existing USB devices that need to be addressed. Mine lists an in-system Design-USB Storage Adapter as a device, USB 2.0 as type, and accessible as state.
It says: To use this external storage device, select the appropriate driver in the external storage section of advanced settings dialog, etc.
17)click ok, then next
18)click on advanced settings, and varify USB 2.0 drivers under external storage tab is selected
19)click next, then next again,and disaster recovery box appears
20)click continue, and Norton Ghost task summary box appears in 3 sections:
Backup Task: recheck source and destination paths
Options:Use PC DOS, fast compression
Drivers:Mine has USB 2.0 driver(aspiehcl.sys) listed
21)click on run now, then ok
cheers, ~pawprint~ :cool:

[FastLearner]

Holy Cow. Thanks Pawprint. I can't believe I didn't see this until today... OK I'm going to try this asap...:) Thanks again.

BTW Paul K., I decided not to go with the BootItNG option for a couple reasons:

1) I have no idea how to use this software - it seems at first glance to be quite complex. I get the feeling that one false button press and my drive is hosed!
2) I don't want to mess with my partitions again to create a separate FAT32 partition.

Although I have no doubt that this solution would do the trick, it seems like overkill just to be able to make and restore a backup... :o

[FastLearner]

Still no dice. I'm getting an Error 40213 now after following the advice from Pawprint. The difference is that now at reboot (before the backup takes place) it looks like Windows is recognizing my drive. Many weeks have gone by and I still can't even write a backup directly to this drive (let alone restore one) with Norton Ghost 2003. It's a good thing I haven't had a hard drive crash. Here are a couple excerpts of the error message(s):

Sicherungsvorgang
Quelle: Datenträger 1/(C:)
Ziel: M:\c_backups\06_15_2005\b06_15_2005.gho

Geschätzte Größe des Sicherungs-Image: 4058 MB

Optionen
PC-DOS verwenden
Schnelle Komprimierung
Zusätzlicher freier Speicher in virtueller Partition: 2 MB

Treiber
USB 1.1-Treiber (aspiohci.sys, aspiuhci.sys)
Externen Speichergeräten Laufwerksbuchstaben zuweisen

----------

Excerpt 2 (the error log):

BackupOperation 0

-- GHOST\GHOSTERR.TXT ---------------------------------------------------------

*********************************
Date : Wed Jun 15 18:48:16 2005
Error Number: (40213)
Message: @FIND hat die Image-Datei "C_BACK~1\06_15_~1\B06_15~1.GHO" nicht auf Ihrem System gefunden. M”glicherweise m�ssen Sie zus„tzliche Treiber laden, um auf das Laufwerk zugreifen zu k”nnen, in dem sich "C_BACK~1\06_15_~1\B06_15~1.GHO" befindet.
Version: 2003.793 (Jan 28 2004, Build=793)
Command line arguments: -igb -z1 -imgdescfile=\ghost\imgdescp.txt -wizard -clone,mode=pcreate,src=@GFde7ce608-5fb2-4d46-84b3-9d1063e7d9f4:63,dst=@FIND[ID:1874355]\C_BACK~1\06_15_~1\B06_15~1.GHO -ghwrap
Active Switches :
Autom. Name
Sicher
ProgMode : no progmode
PathName :
DumpFile :
DumpPos : 0
File64 buffersize : 0
FlagImplode : 2
FlagExplode : 0

Operation Details :
Total size.........0
MB copied..........0
MB remaining.......0
Percent complete...0%
Speed..............0MB/min
Time elapsed.......0:00
Time remaining.....0:00

Program Call Stack
Generic_Abort
CheckCloneSwitches
ProcessArg
GetArguments
sub_main
main

Call Stack
0x002430b7
0x0006ef8f
0x0006e23c
0x0006e0b1
0x0006f753
0x00008503
0x0000a50b
0x0000d0be
0x000108d1
0x00010b9b
0x000040bf
0x0000370b
0x002507b8
End Call Stack

etc., etc., etc.

Any ideas?

[Sylvander]

"It's a good thing I haven't had a hard drive crash."
If you're concerned that you don't yet have any backup of your C: partition saved to your external HDD...
I've begun regularly using "Image" on the EBCD to make backup image files to my G: partition [I've also restored one or two], then copying or moving them to my [USB2 connected] external IDE HDD for safe keeping. I keep at least one backup of C: on G: so it can be restored, then once I boot into Windows the ext HDD can be accessed, and any number of backups of various partitions copied onto G: to be restored using "Image".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Komski taught me to use "Smart Boot Manager" [after the Drive Overlay software loaded from the HDD][to boot from the CD-drive] to gain access to my internal HDD from the EBCD. Only by doing so could I use "Image" etc to access partitions on that internal HDD.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Komski]

Treiber
USB 1.1-Treiber (aspiohci.sys, aspiuhci.sys)
Don't know if the reference to 1.1 is of any relevance. Perhaps you need USB2 support and even if you dont have then imaging via an external is likely to be prolonged.

1) I have no idea how to use this software - it seems at first glance to be quite complex. I get the feeling that one false button press and my drive is hosed!
If you get into BiNG's maintenance mode >> partition work it should be straightforward by just selecting image and then saving the file somewhere (having first enabled USB support under options it that is necessary). Creating an image should not hose anything; you just need enough room somewhere to hold the image file. The only time for real care (with any imaging software) is when you restore an image file by ensuring that it is restored to the correct partition.

2) I don't want to mess with my partitions again to create a separate FAT32 partition.
You only need to do this if you want to install BiNG to the hard drive which is only mandatory if you want to use it as a boot manager. You can run BiNG for its partition work from a prepared floppy or CD. Just choose Maintenance Mode when booting up.

[jlreich]

FastLearner, BiNG is great program. I was a little intimidated by it at first. But I recently started to use it to make images directly to DVD and HDD. It's very easy to work with once you start using it. I swapped in an extra HDD to make sure the image restore worked like it should, and restored an image, it worked flawlessly.

Click cancel when the install screen comes up and you will go into maintenance mode. Go into settings, tick USB support, go to partition work, click on the partition you want to image, click image on the right, click the HDD where you want to make the image, click paste.

As long as you don't go messing around with the boot manager or MBR, you shouldn't have any problems.

It's quick and easy, and you don't even have to install it on your system. ;) If you can't get Ghost to work like you want, you may have to use something else. I highly recommend BiNG. Or as Paul said, use it until you get Ghost figured out.

[FastLearner]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

"Don't know if the reference to 1.1 is of any relevance. Perhaps you need USB2 support and even if you dont have then imaging via an external is likely to be prolonged."

Actually, Paul, this was just my last ditch effort. I originally tried the process with USB 2 support and I was getting the same error. Like I said, I'm assuming the driver situation is corrected since at startup Windows is recognizing my drive and even calling it by its Manufacturers Name. Ghost starts as it should and... then the error screen comes up. This is a little change from the original scenario.

"I've begun regularly using "Image" on the EBCD to make backup image files to my G: partition [I've also restored one or two], then copying or moving them to my [USB2 connected] external IDE HDD for safe keeping. I keep at least one backup of C: on G: so it can be restored, then once I boot into Windows the ext HDD can be accessed, and any number of backups of various partitions copied onto G: to be restored using "Image"."

Hi Sylvander, please forgive me since it's been a while since this thread was started, but how can I make an EBCD? You guys always make this stuff sound so easy...:)

"It's quick and easy, and you don't even have to install it on your system. "
and
"You only need to do this if you want to install BiNG to the hard drive which is only mandatory if you want to use it as a boot manager. You can run BiNG for its partition work from a prepared floppy or CD. Just choose Maintenance Mode when booting up."

Thanks jlreich and thanks again Paul.

I think you guys may have found the magic formula here. We can eliminate the possibility of putting BiNG on a floppy since I don't have a FDD, but I am curious as to how to put it on CD - i.e. are there any special settings, etc.? I don't have a disk-burning program installed at the moment, so I was also wondering if I need one of those to do this (or is there a built-in start up CD wizard or something of the like?)?

Thanks again for the help, everyone. Never give up! Heck, once I can create the backup to my external drive, maybe I'll even be able to restore it one day...:):) ROTFL

[FastLearner]

Oh oh. In addition to my last post, I wanted to say that I saw in the BiNG .pdf file the following:

Verify that your system meets the following minimum requirements:
• IBM-compatible personal computer
• i80386-compatible microprocessor
• 16 megabytes (MB) of random access memory (RAM)
• Video graphics adapter (VGA)
• Floppy disk drive
• BIOS-accessible hard disk

Am I screwed? My machine does not have a floppy disk drive.

[Sylvander]

Go here http://ebcd.pcministry.com/ and download the "Image Builder Utility" [and unzip "ebcd-0_6_1-pro-sfx.exe" (make sure you download the Pro version if that's what you want)] then run the ".exe" file to make the ".iso" image file. [Or is my memory at fault?]
After doing that I then used "Easy CD Creator->File->Create CD From Disk Image..." to burn a [bootable] CD-RW disk. You might use another burning Prog.
The EBCD can be used as is or customised as shown here http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37571 to include other programs [perhaps Paul will show you there how to add BiNG to the CD]. :)

"You guys always make this stuff sound so easy..."
Ahhhh, it's always difficult when you don't know how, and easy when you do. :)
The bits I've done become easy, or seem so.
But I must admit that the use of the disk doesn't unfold with ease.
e.g. There are 2 "Menu's", and the 1st item on the 1st menu takes you to a 2nd menu, which has Image as one of the items.

[Paul Komski]

Am I screwed? My machine does not have a floppy disk drive. I think this comes from before you could download a CD iso from the website; (a CD image file that can create a bootable CD by burning it with appropriate software).

I don't have a disk-burning program installed at the moment, so I was also wondering if I need one of those to do this (or is there a built-in start up CD wizard or something of the like?)?
If you dont have burning software do you at least have a CD burner. If so you can use WinXP's native burning software to save ordinary data files and the like to CDs. To burn an iso you would need something like MagicIso (see http://www.magiciso.com/howto/howto.htm and number 10 in particular). Its free to burn small image files such as the BiNG one - well at least as far as I remember.

Whether you want to create an EBCD or a BiNG installation CD you will need some burning software and a CDRW drive.

[FastLearner]

Thanks guys. I am going to give both methods a try. Paul, yes I have a CDRW /DVD drive, which I think means that I can write CDs but only read DVDs. Anyway, I used to always use Nero so I honestly didn't even know that WinXP came with a disk-writing utility. Why would I need a special program to burn an .iso file, just out of curiosity? Is this because something needs to make the cd "bootable" as well?

Anyway I'm in the process of downloading EBCD Pro version. I'm thinking I can use the EBCD disk as an emergency boot disk (once I get that far) and then use BiNG to restore (and create) my backup images to my usb external drive.

Does this sound like a reasonable goal, or have I set my sites too high again?...:)

In the mean time, thanks to you guys for the help once again.

[Paul Komski]

Why would I need a special program to burn an .iso file, just out of curiosity? Is this because something needs to make the cd "bootable" as well?

A lot of isos do happen to be bootable but the essence of burning an iso is that the copy is burned sector by sector and not file by file.

Bootable CDs usually "pretend" to be bootable floppies or hard drives (aka emulation) and the only easy way to do this is for specialist burning software to prepare the way the CD is "sort of partitioned". All the big names such as Nero and Easy CD have a way of burning isos and also have a way of creating bootable CDs.

If you download an iso you must have some way of burning it (not simply copying the iso file to disk as if it were a simple data file) and in the absence of one of the big names MagicIso should do the job for you. I forget how big the iso for EBCD is but if it is larger than 300MB I don't know of any freeware that will do the job for you.

[FastLearner]

Hi. I need a quick verification of something before I continue. Below is an excertp from the readme file that says what is 'supposed' to happen upon creating the EBCD .iso image. It almost matches what happened to me, except I received a warning that I really should install something about rockridge, and the part that is supposed to read "Total rockridge attributes bytes: 2715" reads "Total rockridge attributes bytes: 0."

Is this cause for concern, or should I proceed with installing a trial version of Nero 6 (I've been wanting Nero 6 anyway, unless Version5 is now free, which I doubt)?

Emergency Boot CD-ROM build utility.

makeebcd.exe build date: Aug 21 2003 17:46:56

Copyright(C) 2002-2003 Mikhail Kupchik See http://www.ebcd.i-am.ru/ for more info.



This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it

under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 as published

by the Free Software Foundation.

There is no warranty of any kind, however.





STEP1: Reading primary configuration file...

STEP2: Reading user configuration files...

STEP3: Building CD-ROM filesystem...

STEP4: Building Ramdisks...

STEP5: Building CD-ROM image...Warning: creating filesystem that does not conform to ISO-9660.



Size of boot image is 4 sectors -> No emulation

14.56% done, estimate finish Thu Aug 21 18:14:11 2003

29.7 % done, estimate finish Thu Aug 21 18:14:08 2003

43.63% done, estimate finish Thu Aug 21 18:14:07 2003

58.14% done, estimate finish Thu Aug 21 18:14:08 2003

72.71% done, estimate finish Thu Aug 21 18:14:07 2003

87.23% done, estimate finish Thu Aug 21 18:14:07 2003

Total extents actually written = 34378

Total translation table size: 2048

Total rockridge attributes bytes: 2715

Total directory bytes: 8926

Path table size(bytes): 54

34400 extents written (67 Mb)



Build successful

Press any key to continue...

[Sylvander]

I took notes of the details you gave, then downloaded the file, extracted the contents to a folder, and ran the iso building process to compare/contrast the results with yours.

I got pretty much the same as you, with slight differences in the numbers as follows:
ISO 9660 : same
4 sectors, No Emulation : same
34 378 : 30 898
2048 : same
Rockridge 2715 : zero
8926 : 4374
54 : 38
34400 : 30928
(67) : (60)

I don't think you have anything to worry about, all's well.

[FastLearner]

OK Thanks Sylvander. I will assume then that rockridge is something unimportant and proceed on with the process... (BTW, those weren't my results, but an excerpt from the readme file that shows what the results should be. Either way, my numbers were very close to these, with the exception of this rockridge thingamajigggy.

[Sylvander]

"I will assume then that rockridge is something unimportant and proceed on with the process..."
That's what I did and everything worked out fine. :D

[Sylvander]

If you want to clutter your mind with yet more information you might spend some hours reading this. :(
http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~bjh21/rrip112.pdf

I assume the ISO9660 file system is not being used; the Joliet system is being used instead. :D
Now doesn't that make it sound like I know what I'm talking about?

[FastLearner]

okay a little progress. I now have the EBCD burned and in CDRW form. Now what do you suggest would be the best way to proceed?

I was thinking about trying it your way first, Sylvander, and try using the 'Image' utility on the EBCD to create a backup Image. Then I can try using the same utility to restore the backup. Is it really as straightforward as it looks? Any last-minute tips before I get started? I'd hate to goof up at this point and do exactly what I've been trying to avoid this whole time - namely hose my Windows installation by having a Restore attempt go bad...:)

[Sylvander]

"namely hose my Windows installation by having a Restore attempt go bad.."
I know EXACTLY how that feels. :(
Personally I like to [and do] have the luxury of two different backup systems.
Then if one goes wrong [and a couple have in the past, though never "Image" so far], I fall back upon the other.
Are you aware it's possible to use Windows own "MS Backup" to make backups to a file? And those files can be saved to the external HDD. That could be your second line of defense. At worst you could reinstall Windows to gain access to those backup files and restore those from within Windows. It tends to skip a file or two, and you can save those separately.

USING IMAGE
Just boot from the EBCD | at the 1st menu hit "Enter" | at the 2nd menu select "Image" and hit "Enter" | hit enter again at the displayed message to confirm you want to use it | proceed sensibly.
You'll be asked whether you want to image or restore.
Then what do you want to image backup?
Select your [C:?] partition from the list [looks a little odd, don't let it confuse you].
Then where do you wish to put the file?
To HDD or CD? Say HDD [saving to CD won't work].
Choose to use a 2GB max file size. If the backup is greater than 2GB, a set of files is made, each 2GB or less. Later move those to a folder of their own. To restore that set you only select the single file that is displayed by "Image".
Then you need to specify [type, no "Browse"] a [pre-prepared] Partition\folder\sub-folder\filename. [This might be offputting]
With me its "G:\image\c\050617".
c is the drive, 05 is the year, 06 the month, 17 the day, the backup was made.
The prog will then begin making the image file.
You will be asked at some point if you want to confirm that the backup matches the file system. I don't normally bother, that's how much confidence I have in this.
Restoring the backup is even easier. You just navigate to the file, and choose it to restore.

I believe "Image" doesn't include empty space on the partition in the backup file [which is nice], so a huge partition with next to nothing on it doesn't produce a HUUUUge file. The file is only as big as is needed to hold the contents of the partition. But it doesn't use compression.

[FastLearner]

Already having problems!

I see a menu that looks like:

Hard Drive [0]
Hard Drive [1]

(I only have one physical drive-USB not even hooked up at the moment)

I choose Hard Drive [0]

(tried HD[1] the first time and my computer froze)

Then I see this menu:

[Hard Drive 0]

MBR Entry 0 partition (01) 18999 MB HPFS/NTFS
MBR Entry 1 partition (02) 19148 MB Extended
ZZZZZZZZZ volume (025A) 19148 MB HPFS/NTFS

I choose MBR Entry 0

I type in the path: D:\image\c\050617

Image starts to write and an error comes:

"Error on Write or Disk Full"


The drive is fine and it is not even close to full.

[Sylvander]

Do you have a folder "D:\image\c" already made?
I don't think Image can make a folder system that doesn't exist [not sure though]; you need to "Prepare a place" for the file.
Be careful to observe upper or lower case. I do it as a matter of course, never had any trouble.
Ah, I see the problem; you need to make a FAT32 Partition to save to.
I believe Image can backup NTFS partitions, but can only access [to save to, and restore from] FAT partitions.
That complicates matters a little.
Partition Magic would do that with ease.
The alternative is to make backups of those partitions by some other method, then repartition to make [the last] a smallish FAT partition for backups, then restore the backups of C: and D: [check that the program can do that].

I notice the C: partition is 18999 MB [active primary partition I assume], and D: is 19148 MB Logical partition inside an extended Partition.

[FastLearner]

Do you have a folder "D:\image\c" already made?


No, I didn't have one. Making one now...


Ah, I see the problem; you need to make a FAT32 Partition to save to.
I believe Image can backup NTFS partitions, but can only access [to save to, and restore from] FAT partitions.
That complicates matters a little.


Actually, that complicates matters alot. I really do not want to be playing around with the existing partitions at this point, especially since I have absolutely no backup to fall back on if the partition work goes bad. As a matter of fact, the turning point (where I abandoned the Ghost idea and started toward BiNG and EBCD) was a direct result of Paul's statement that I would not need to add any new partitions to my internal drive. Now what should I do?

I am lost again, and this is starting to look hopeless again. First and foremost, imho, any good backup plan should be easy. I agree the EBCD was almost easy, but now this unfortunate twist puts it more on the risky side.

[Sylvander]

"Now what should I do?"
Nil Desperandum! :)

Plan 1
Do you have any old, smallish IDE HDD that you could fit inside the box, partition as FAT32 and use for backups?

Plan 2
You could use "MS Backup" to backup C: and D: to the external HDD, then restore to test.
Then you could repartition the internal HDD to suit, install Windows to gain access to the external HDD, and restore C: and D: a 2nd time.

"any good backup plan should be easy"
It is once set up and ready to go. Previously I couldn't get the EBCD to access my internal HDD. Once I figured out how to do it, the job became simple.

[FastLearner]

Plan 1
Do you have any old, smallish IDE HDD that you could fit inside the box, partition as FAT32 and use for backups?

Unfortunately...Nope, this is a laptop.


Plan 2
You could use "MS Backup" to backup C: and D: to the external HDD, then restore to test.
Then you could repartition the internal HDD to suit, install Windows to gain access to the external HDD, and restore C: and D: a 2nd time.


This may work. The only problem is I don't have MS Backup anymore. It's strange, because I had it at one point on a different machine that I no longer have (pre SP2). It has never been a part of my XP Home installation on my laptop. I'm sure I could probably get it from Microsoft, but all of these huge downloads are killing me since I'm temporarily on dial-up. I d/l'd 33 MB of the trial version of Nero 6 Reloaded last night...took the whole night. My computer is still up and running...:) Does the MS Backup utility work well with system partitions. Does the image it creates also function as an emergency boot disk, as it would with Ghost, for example?

Off the topic: You know it's strange that the more I learn about computers, the more difficult I make things for myself by trying to learn new things...:) Oh well, I guess that's how we learn. Anyone can write e-mail and use Word all day and call themself an expert, but only a real man can create and restore a backup to and fro a usb drive.... :rolleyes:

[Paul Komski]

Paul's statement that I would not need to add any new partitions to my internal drive

This is still the case if you go with BiNG but choose to not install it onto the hard drive.
Unzip download and run bootitng.exe. Agree to terms and choose the option to create the CD iso - it is a mere 1.4MB iso made in the same folder. Burn that small iso with Nero or similar and boot to the resulting CD when you want to run BiNG. Just cancel the HDD setup and go into maintenance mode. No floppies required; no new partitions need to be created.

[Sylvander]

"I don't have MS Backup anymore"
Isn't it a component of your Windows installation that just so happens not to be installed at the moment? If you chose to, surely it would be installed from your Windows CD.

"Does the MS Backup utility work well with system partitions."
When I used it I chose to backup the whole C: partition. I'm pretty sure it would backup any Partition right down to a single file.

"Does the image it creates also function as an emergency boot disk"
If you mean can you restore the backup even if Windows won't boot, then no. You must boot into Windows to be able to access the contents of your external HDD to restore the backup from the file. But that can be done by re-installing Windows alone. Then when you gain access and restore the backup you get everything restored. Windows, Programs,Configuration Settings, data files, etc.

"the more difficult I make things for myself"
Ah, but you give yourself a MUCH greater range of options to choose from.
Then no matter what happens, you always have some way to bypass or fix a problem.
As I sit here I have 3 different methods available for backup and restore:
1. "Simple backup" to CD-RW disks. [Used]
2. "Image" to the G: partition, with copies to the external HDD. [Most used]
3. "MS Backup" to the External HDD [Not used any more]

[FastLearner]

Thanks Sylvander. Actually, MS Backup was not part of my Windows Install. At no point was I presented with the option of installing it. And I am not too sure about how to go about getting it. Do you think it may be hidden somewhere on my Restore CD. (don't have a full-version CD since my computer came with WinXP already installed).

[Sylvander]

In Windows 98 it's one of the "System Tools" components in the Windows section of "Add/Remove Programs".
I have it ticked, so it got installed.

[Sylvander]

HOW TO: Install Backup from the CD-ROM in Windows XP Home Edition (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;302894)

How to Use the Backup Utility to Back Up Files and Folders in Windows XP Home Edition (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;320820)

[Paul Komski]

If you are going to go down the road of file backup rather than system backup then SyncBack from http://www.2brightsparks.com/syncback/ might be your answer. Particularly so since you have your original "factory restore" disk for your system and don't seem to have a full WinXP installation CD.

The freeware link is at the bottom of the page. DataKeeper from PowerQuest (used to come bundled with Partition Magic) though not freewae, is IMHO one of the best of such backup utilities since it is easily automated and will keep incremental backups into the bargain.

Imaging a system is of course the best way to keep the registry backed up as well as files and any of a multitude of your own customisations that you may have made to your system. Getting one's data safe is, of course, the most important thing for most people.

[FastLearner]

Actually I hadn't planned on following a definite "file" backup system or a definite "system" backup plan, but rather a combination of both. I have a few interesting things to report here:

1) To my surprise, my XP Home "Quick Restore" disk actually contained the \ValueAdd folder and so I installed the MS Backup utility manually. I still can't figure out for the life of me why this is not installed in XP Home by default, but the link provided by Sylvander proves that it isn't a part of it. Anyway, I also was not aware that XP Home does not support ASR. Is XP Home a piece of junk, or is it just me?

2) For the heck of it, I used the utility to backup my partitions in the following way (yes, I was going for redundancy just for the testing phase):

I backed up each partition (only using 2 if you don't recall) to the other partition, as well as each partition to the USB drive (did not just copy and paste or move the file to the USB drive, but rather let the backup utility write the .bkf files directly to the drive. It worked.

An interesting note while backing up my C:\ drive (which contains only programs, and no data files) is that it took 21 minutes to backup to my D:\ drive on the same physical disk, but the backup only took 14 minutes directly to the USB drive. I know USB2 is fast, but I can't imagine it being faster than writing to a partition on the same physical disk. Maybe someone can provide an explanation of how this is possible.

Anyway, I also found it very interesting to note that the .bkf file written to the D:\ drive is 3308172 KB, but the .bkf file written to the USB drive (shortly afterward) is 3308202 KB. Why are these not the same?

Lastly, I used the MS Backup utility to backup my "System State" and had it write the .bkf file directly to my USB drive.

So, finally here are some questions:

1) Is having a backup of the "System State", combined with a backup of the C:\drive's data as good as having an image of the C:\ drive? Why or why not?

The reason I ask is that if XP Home doesn't support ASR anyway, and if I'm pretty ,much looking at the need to reinstall Windows first as part of any restoration attempt (before being able to recover a backup) I choose, then:

2) Should I continue with the MS Backup Utility or with Norton Ghost? With Ghost, I'm thinking I can make backup images of my partitions to the other partition, and then copy them over to my USB drive in their .gho format. Then if I need (or want) to restore, I can 1) reinstall Windows 2) install Norton Ghost 3) copy the .gho backup image back to my local drive and 4) restore the backup.

Does this sound like a practical solution? Will it work?

Thanks again for all the participation in this thread...:)

[Sylvander]

"Maybe someone can provide an explanation of how this is possible."
Beats me, unless writing to the same physical HDD as is being read forces the read/write heads to move back and forth, whereas when writing to the external HDD both reads and writes can be done "concurrently".
And does the external HDD have its own separate controller built into the housing?

"Why are these not the same?"
Perhaps the contents of the C: partition had changed slightly between the 2 backups? Things had moved on when you made the 2nd backup and therefore the contents had increased and the backup was bigger. The C: partition is ever-changing, not static.

"Is having a backup of the "System State", combined with a backup of the C:\drive's data as good as having an image of the C:\ drive?"
I guess the "System State" is a separate record [not really necessary] of the configuration for the "System". The total backup of all files would include that anyway and is the one to have. If you were to restore only the System State there could be created a mismatch with the files to which it relates.
Not quite as good as an image? If the result of a restore looks the same who's to say?

"Should I continue with the MS Backup Utility or with Norton Ghost?"
I imagine Ghost would be best, but why not do both if you have the storage space on the ext HDD? The more options the better until you know which is reliable.

"Does this sound like a practical solution? Will it work?"
Yes & yes I think.

Nice to have something work at last. :D

Now you need to take a deep breath and try restoring one or more of those backups.
1. D: would be the best one to try first.
If you just overwrite the contents you'd see no difference.
But lets say you deleted a single expendable file on D: [perhaps one created for the purpose].
Then when you restore, you should see that file reappear.
2. Then try restoring C:

[FastLearner]

Thanks again Sylvander.

I think I will try restoring D:\ since I can do that now, but wouldn't restoring C:\ first require a new XP installation? That's where all of my system files and programs are kept. Also are you saying that I don't need the System State backup? According to MS, this is where the registry settings and such are kept, but maybe they're also included as part of the c:\ and D:\ backups? At any rate, I guess I'll make an image of C:\ with Ghost and put it on my USB drive just to be sure...

[Sylvander]

"but wouldn't restoring C:\ first require a new XP installation?"
No, at least not unless you had repartitioned and/or reformatted the HDD, you may be doing that later, but not just yet methinks.
If you make a backup of all of the contents [of the files] on C: and then C: changes in minute [insignificant?] ways, and then you restore the backup, then...
What will happen is that the contents of C: will "jump back" to the way C: was when you made the backup. Except that if you do not first reformat C: then there may be extra files in existence [additional to those in the backup] that do not get overwritten by those in the backup. These may be orphan files that were referred to in the later configuration files but not in the older configuration files. Or they may be additional data files [not referenced by the configuration files] created after the backup was made.
Much better in general to first reformat the partition, but in the first steps you may not want to risk that. You can do it once you are more confident of a successful restore.
The restoration of an image of C: is good because it would include EVERYTHING [all files at least], and all the parts would match. No possibility of a mismatch.

"you saying that I don't need the System State backup?"
I don't think you need a separate [partial backup] of the "System State" only [not sure exactly what that is anyway, but I guess it's the registry and other configuration files at least]. That would be part of a full backup of C: anyway.

"I'll make an image of C:\ with Ghost and put it on my USB drive just to be sure..."
Good move.

[FastLearner]

D:\ restore worked perfectly. I tried first deleting one file - file came back upon restore. Then I tried a folder - folder came back upon restore. Then I tried a bunch of folders - folders all came back upon restore. For restoring files, anyway, the MS Backup utility is pretty reliable from what I can tell. Do you recommend tying a reformat of D:\ and then a restore? I see no reason why it wouldn't work, but in the case of an "only files" drive, is it necessary as it would be with my C:\ drive, for example?


"but wouldn't restoring C:\ first require a new XP installation?"
No, at least not unless you had repartitioned and/or reformatted the HDD, you may be doing that later, but not just yet methinks.
If you make a backup of all of the contents [of the files] on C: and then C: changes in minute [insignificant?] ways, and then you restore the backup, then...
What will happen is that the contents of C: will "jump back" to the way C: was when you made the backup. Except that if you do not first reformat C: then there may be extra files in existence [additional to those in the backup] that do not get overwritten by those in the backup. These may be orphan files that were referred to in the later configuration files but not in the older configuration files. Or they may be additional data files [not referenced by the configuration files] created after the backup was made.
Much better in general to first reformat the partition, but in the first steps you may not want to risk that. You can do it once you are more confident of a successful restore.
The restoration of an image of C: is good because it would include EVERYTHING [all files at least], and all the parts would match. No possibility of a mismatch.


See this is the part that is confusing me. If I reformat the C:\ drive, then I've lost all of my system files. Then I could not boot into Windows to launch the MS Backup Utility in order to restore the C:\ drive. Even if I did a fresh install of Windows on my C:\ drive, how could I restore it while it's in use? This is the area about Norton Ghost that I liked - it does it's imaging "outside" of the Operating System, so to speak.

[Sylvander]

"Do you recommend tying a reformat of D:\ and then a restore?"
Yes, that's the next step. The really big step is where you repartition. Especially if you change the sizes of the partitions. I think that where you use a program like this that backs up and restores folders & files, changing the partition size should make no difference; they should restore just so long as the partition is big enough to hold them. "Simple Backup" used to complain when the partition had reduced in size, but it worked fine anyway because there was enough room.

"is it necessary"
I would say it generally is. Not generally a good idea to have extra files, additional to those in the backup. But use your wits. You may know that there are a few extra DATA files [not in the backup, would not be orphans] that you'd like to retain.
You might decide that any small risk is worth it to have those preserved.

"If I reformat the C:\ drive, then I've lost all of my system files"
Exactly, and if you reformat then sure, you'll need to reinstall windows to gain access to your external HDD. Only then can you restore the backups using MS Backup.
But you're not going to do that just yet I hope.
First see if D: will restore after formatting it.
If that works ok, then try deleting some expendable files and folders on C: to show that it will restore.
When you're happy with everything, try formatting C: and restore it.
Take small preliminary steps and build up.
"Boldly go [with intelligence and caution] where no "Fastlearner" has gone before."

"how could I restore it while it's in use?"
Hmmm, I can't remember if I've done that before.
I'll give it a try and get back to you.
Don't risk it until I've checked. I have 3 ways to restore, so can take greater risk.

[FastLearner]

OK, my confidence is growing by the minute. I just successfully ran a quick format on D:\, rebooted, checked Windows Explorer and all of my data was gone...

Ran the MS Backup utility, restored the D:\ drive from my C:\ drive (I have a backup on my USB drive, too, so I could have gone that route if necessary) and like magic, my files are all back!

So far, so good. My next step is to make an image of C:\ to D:\ with Ghost, copy it over to the USB drive. Format my C:\ drive and reinstall Windows (will this kill my files on D:\ as well - I'm thinking not, but better safe than sorry). Then I will wait to see what your results were of trying to restore C:\ with the MS Backup utility while C:\ is in use - still sounds 'dangerous' though...:)

[Sylvander]

"The registry has been restored.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Sti_Trace.log was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\All Users\Application Data\Grisoft\Avg7Data\avg7log.log was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\All Users\Application Data\Grisoft\Avg7Data\avg7log.log.lck was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Cookies\index.dat was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\History\History.IE5\index.dat was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Internet Logs\ABB.ldb was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Internet Logs\IAMDB.RDB was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Internet Logs\fwdbglog.txt was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Internet Logs\fwpktlog.txt was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: C:\WINDOWS\Internet Logs\tvDebug.log was busy during backup. It cannot be restored or compared.
Warning: Active files that were restored will not be usable until the computer is restarted."

That's the report after a backup and immediate restore of my C: partition using MS Backup.
Not exactly the best method to use, but Windows would work methinks.
Those missing files are not insignificant, but Windows could work without them. You could even make separate backups of individual files you knew would be skipped.

At least you know that if [after reformatting and/or partitioning] other restore methods didn't work and this did, then the result wouldn't be useless.

I also made a backup using "Image", so I could restore that if it seems advisable.

Not very keen on expending the time and effort to reformat C: then reinstall Windows and drivers, then restore backup by MS Backup.
You'd need to repartition and reformat if you wanted to make a FAT32 partition for storing the backups by "Image".
I really like Image; it's simple, quick, and effective, and there are no skipped files.

I've lost track...
Can you restore using Ghost after you repartition?
That would be much more simple and easy.

[Sylvander]

Just restored the Image backup of C:
It was much simpler, quicker, and more effective than MS Backup.
MS Backup has a nice GUI, but for all that, and all the time and effort, the result is not nearly so good.

[FastLearner]

"

I've lost track...
Can you restore using Ghost after you repartition?
That would be much more simple and easy.

Good question. I will have to look into that before a test run. I have created my Ghost Image of C:\, left one copy on D:\ and copied one copy on my USB drive.

For a true test run using Ghost (to simulate a hard drive failure and having to install a new one) I need to reinstall Windows, install Ghost, and then use the Ghost restore tool to copy the image back to the C:\ partition - that much we have established, or haven't we? I guess that implies that I have to first create new partitions (as part of the Install process). I'm hoping Ghost is capable of handling this, but I'm really not too sure if Ghost will try to "recreate" the partitions or simply follow my orders and restore an image on the partition I tell it to - even if the size of the partition is a little bit different than the partition the image was taken from.

I do need to find out, though, before I go ahead and run format c:\ from my dos prompt!...:)

[Sylvander]

"I need to reinstall Windows, install Ghost, and then use the Ghost restore tool"
Can't you just run Ghost from a floppy or [if you don't have a FDD] customize the EBCD to include it and run it from there?
Or have I lost track?

"I have to first create new partitions"
1. I keep C: as small as possible [1.6GB used of 3,000MB for Win98SE + 50 prog's].
2. On D: I keep emails, address book, My Documents, IE Favourites etc [274MB used of 2,000Mb].
3. E: I use for MP3's and wave files etc. [20,000MB]
4. F: may have video's in the future. [45,000MB]
5. G: holds backups and the Windows and MS Office installation files. [12,000MB]

"I'm really not too sure if Ghost will try to "recreate" the partitions"
My guess is you only need to make sure the partition is big enough [or greater] to hold the restored contents. Paul Komski's one guy who'll know about that. I remember reading instructions ["Drive Image" (Ghost was developed from that) help files?] giving lots of detail on that.

"I do need to find out, though, before I go ahead and run format c:\"
You sure do, so I hope someone who knows chimes in.

[Paul Komski]

Paul Komski's one guy who'll know about that.
Nope - not when it comes to Ghost, which I never fell in love with and have barely ever played with "in anger". The current situation with Symantec is that, having taken over PowerQuest, they have "ditched" DriveImage and I believe the latest version of Ghost is a hybrid of the Old Ghost and DriveImage. Symantec's take over of PowerQuest was one of my reasons for migrating to BiNG. I have a lot of time however for the old PowerQuest DOS-based Drive Image on floppies or EBCD.

[FastLearner]

Can't you just run Ghost from a floppy or [if you don't have a FDD] customize the EBCD to include it and run it from there?
Or have I lost track?

You've lost track. I gave up for the time being on the EBCD idea when it wouldn't play nicely with my NTFS drives... I guess I'm just being stubborn, but I refuse to create a new partition in order to be able to restore a backup...

Otherwise, yes that would be much easier ... if I only had a FDD... :eek:
(never again will I buy any machine, laptop or not, without a floppy drive - I promise)

[jlreich]

OK. I just read through the entire thread from start to finish. :eek:

FastLearner, did you figure out how to make BiNG a bootable CD? No floppy needed at all. :) And I don't think you need a burning program installed either. Terabyte Unlimited has a free utility called MakeDisk that will burn many of their products for you, including BiNG.

1. Download BiNG (http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html)

2. Download MakeDisk (http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html) , the first one on the list.

3. Extract both zip files to a location of your choice.

4. Double click the MakeDisk icon to start the process, and follow the prompts.

Just to give you a heads up.

I made a folder for BiNG and one for MakeDisk to extract them to. When I started MakeDisk I had to point it to the makedisk config file in the BiNG folder where I extracted it to. After accepting the EULA, enable mouse support and all that, I choose my CD-R drive as the target. It made the ISO image in a couple of minutes, I rebooted and tested it. Works just like the floppy, only faster to load. :D

I am all for redundancy when it comes to my data. And I will experiment with MS backup, and in particular the thread Sylvander and Paul have on EBCD. But I must say, imaging is the way to go. It is the most reliable and simplest way to back up your data, partition or whole system.

Of the ways I have tried to back up my system, BiNG has been the most effective, simple way to do it. I have had two problems with BiNG. First, USB support would not work with my old 99' Dell laptop, but that's a bios limitation and not BiNG. Second, when I was making a DVD image of my main computer, apparently the size of my C: drive was just on the fringe of causing the image to be made on two DVD's instead of one. Which caused byte for byte validation to fail. Once I moved "My Docs" on to another partition, therefore making the partition a little smaller, it worked just fine. I am sure if I had made the partition a little bigger it would have worked just as well. It seems that BiNG was just trying to fit just a wee to much data on a single DVD.

And BTW, I tested the image, and it worked flawlessly. :) :cool: ;)

Anyway, It seemed that Paul's earlier post on putting BiNG on a bootable CD was overlooked. So I wanted to make sure his excellent information was not lost.

[Sylvander]

GREAT STUFF JL. :D :cool:

Hey, itzzz fazzers day and d'kidzzz izz plyin' me wizz strong dwinkkk.

ENJOY :) :D

[FastLearner]

Great point jlreich. I knew I was forgetting something. I have just created and tested the BiNG startup disk - works like a charm. Now I need to go back in this thread and read what and how to do what I wanted to do with it...:) I do remember that for my purposes, I only need Maintenance Mode, though, since I wasn't wanting to (or needing to) install it on my hdd. Just as a quick test, I booted to the BiNg disk, chose Maintenance Mode, and chose Backup. For some reason, I was only presented with HDD[0] as an option (I'm assuming it's just talking about the one physical drive), and I clicked make backup just to see what happens. I immediately got an error box with no explanation saying that BiNG encountered an error - which error? Anyway, I'm going to look back through this thread and through BiNG's .pdf help file to see how to make backups with it and most importantly, how to restore them properly.

[FastLearner]

FastLearner, BiNG is great program. I was a little intimidated by it at first. But I recently started to use it to make images directly to DVD and HDD. It's very easy to work with once you start using it. I swapped in an extra HDD to make sure the image restore worked like it should, and restored an image, it worked flawlessly.

Click cancel when the install screen comes up and you will go into maintenance mode. Go into settings, tick USB support, go to partition work, click on the partition you want to image, click image on the right, click the HDD where you want to make the image, click paste.

As long as you don't go messing around with the boot manager or MBR, you shouldn't have any problems.

It's quick and easy, and you don't even have to install it on your system. ;) If you can't get Ghost to work like you want, you may have to use something else. I highly recommend BiNG. Or as Paul said, use it until you get Ghost figured out.


Found it!!!

[FastLearner]

OK, I think we're starting to see why I do not purchase lottery tickets. If 100 people tried this experiment, 100 would probably have success the first time - unless I was one of these 100 people.

I followed these directions to a tee:

1) Boot to BiNG
2) Choose NOT to install to HDD
3) Choose OK to enter Maintenance Mode
4) Go into Settings and tick the box that says "USB 2.0 Support"
5) Click OK
6) Go into Partition Work
7) Highlight my C:\ drive's partition
8) Choose Image
9) oops - no USB drive on the left side of the screen to choose from (to Paste my image). The only 2 drives listed are my internal HDD and my CDRW drive. That's it.

What am I doing wrong here?

[Paul Komski]

The Drive should appear in the Left Hand List even before enabling USB 2.0; it would just operate at USB 1.1 speeds (and for big drives any manouvres would take for ever).

So it appears that the external is just not recognised - period. Is this a 2.5 or 3.5 drive? and if the former are both connectors joined to the Y connector so that it receives enough power. Presumably you have the drive attached before you boot to the BiNG CD.

I have no problems using a 1Gig USB 2.0 pendrive in the manner outlined. One quirk is that the drive appears in the left hand list at the start of partition work and another drive appears to be added once I enable USB 2.j0 support. In both positions I can image from or to the drive. One takes 10 times longer than the other but both images are identical with a MD5 hash comparison.

Is it possible that there is a BIOS setting somewhere to enable USB support? Apart from that or inadequate power I cant think of another way of gettng it recognised.

Perhaps too this lack of recognition explains some of the problems you have had in using Ghost.

[FastLearner]

That's what I was afraid you were going to say, Paul. I looked in BIOS and found this in my Advanced Options:

USB Host Controller [Enabled ]
USB 2.0 Host [ Enabled]

Reset Config Data [No]
QuickStart Mode [Enabled]

Other than that, I can't think of any reason either why Windows can see my drives (tried 2 different USB Drives) but BiNG or Ghost cannot. :confused:

[Paul Komski]

I have (belatedly/reluctantly) begun to look at the way Ghost works. There is quite a lot on Google about getting its various versions to access both USB and Firewire Drives. Subtle differences in the USB drivers can make all the difference. I have been concentrating on Ghost.exe 7 from a DOS boot floppy. So far I haven't been able to get the USB option to become ungreyed in the GUI - but I'm darned if I'll let it beat me.

Just one thought from preliminary homework is that any other USB connections can screw up recognition in some cases. So if you are using any other USB devices it could be worth a shot of removing all of them bar the external enclosure.

[Sylvander]

I had some initial difficulty getting Windows to see the external HDD never mind a prog loaded from a floppy!
Had to install precisely the correct driver for Windows to use.
And it had to be matched to [among other things] the Windows version.
So which is the OS on the BiNG & Ghost floppies? DOS you say, Paul.
So do you need a USB driver [compatible with the version of DOS] loading from the floppy?
I thought DOS prog's couldn't access NTFS partitions?
I wonder if the EBCD could also load such a driver to give the EBCD access to the USB HDD?

[FastLearner]

I don't have any other USB devices. In fact, the only thing I use that did not come with the computer (besides the USB drive itself) is a PCMCIA network adapter card.

According to the BiNG .pdf help file, BiNG supports NTFS, FAT32, and FAT file systems.

The funny thing about Ghost was that it (PC DOS) was recognizing my drive by make and model (after I enabled USB2 support), but would error while trying to start the imaging process. BiNG shows absolutely no evidence that it sees the drive at all (even after enabling the USB2 support option. This tells me that it is possible that if they both use PC DOS, then they use different versions, at the very least.

[Sylvander]

Took a look at my driver CD for the USB2-AT2 cable [for external HDD in cabinet].
Sure enough, a DOS driver is included.
Cannot upload the pdf file that comes with it because it's greater than 20kB.
Interesting reading. If only I understood it all.
e.g. Command Line Parameters for the driver file in the Config.sys file:
"NOD[RIVES]
Disables support for USB drives. Overrides the DRIVES parameter."

Tells how to set the DOS driver up for use [on the C: drive].

[Paul Komski]

FastLearner I first came across BiNG when I wanted a boot manager that would boot specially prepared windows 9x installations from logical partitions (using no primary partitions in the process). There was then a moment of serendipity when I found that the same program did just about everything that PartitionMagic, BootMagic and DriveImage did individually and at a fraction of the price. I was hooked from that point.

Up till now I had never tried another TerabyteUnlimited product called "Image For Windows". But I have downloaded its 2MB file and tried it out and it could be (at least part of) the answer to your dilemma. As well as IFW you should also download the small AddOn called "PhyLock". This augments locking the active partition since you will be wanting to image the partition you are currently using. PhyLock may be required to lock the current partition so that it can be imaged. Read the readme file(s) before using them and then run both setups and reboot. If there's any problem rebooting windows choose F8 and last known good. This shouldnt be a problem unless there is any conflict with any other disk locking or antivirus software.

Anyway it should have no problem accessing your USB drive since it works from within windows. The interface is very simple to use and the trialware seems to be fully functional.

THE PROBLEM however is how to restore? So back to the Catch22 of seeing the USB drive from without Windows. The companion utility is "Image for DOS" that would normally be used for this purpose. I have used it and it has no problem seeing my USB2 PenDrive. Trial and error if your setup will see the drive but it could be worth a try. If successful the combination of IFW and IFD should be your answer.

Its dead easy to make the IFD boot CD. Download the two zip files MakeDisk.zip and Image.zip from TerabyteUnlimited. Extract the contents of both into THE SAME folder and run makedisk.exe from within Windows. Have a blank CD ready in your burner and choose the burn option; (there is also an iso option and a floppy option). Now boot to that CD. Choose "Restore Image" and then choose the "Partition Option". On the next screen choose the "USB2HD" option and cross your fingers. If your USB Drive is recognised we could be in business. If it is not recognised within the first 5 seconds maybe retry a couple of times. Once recognised one would find the relevant img file (navigate with the arrows and tab) and take it from there. CTL+ALT+DEL to get out at this point.

If this fails I only can see a few more options to try. One is to access both drives using a BartPE CD, another is to use a boot floppy image (copied to a boot CD) simply set up to access USB devices; (there is a page at BootDisk with a number of ways of doing this: http://www.bootdisk.com/usb.htm and if one can make such a floppy image then their should be no problem in getting Ghost to work by adding it to the same floppy image) and finally there is a possibility of using the dd utilitly from a Linux CD such as Knoppix. I have only done the latter from within Linux on a HDD but in principle it should be perfectly feasible.

If it were me I would have partitioned my HDD a long time ago but I realise you want to avoid that and it is a good problem to try and solve; far better than doing crosswords.

Sylvander
I don't know what OS BiNG uses but I think it is proprietary since there is no normal boot file - just one called EMBRL. Modern Ghost can run from Windows but prior to that it was always added to a DOS-boot floppy.

DOS cant "see" NTFS partitions but there are DOS programs that can see and even read and write to NTFS partitions - there is a distinction between what DOS, FAT16, and DOS utilities can see and do. Also most imaging programs dont worry much about the file system since they are working with sectors and not files.

[Paul Komski]

In fact, the only thing I use that did not come with the computer (besides the USB drive itself) is a PCMCIA network adapter card.

Perhaps the PCI card IS the problem: see http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/ghost.nsf/8f7dc138830563c888256c2200662ecd/ac0a10696dbf9aeb88256c3b00567d93?OpenDocument&src=bar_sch_nam

[FastLearner]

Whoa. This is possible that the PC Card is causing this problem. Later when I get home, I'm going to hook up to my USB drive and then try again with Ghost without the PC Card in the slot. Who knows? It just may do the trick. If not, I can try out that other block of advice... Thanks again..:)

[FastLearner]

Well, I disabled and removed my PC Card and gave Ghost another run. It is still not recognizing my drive. Looks like I'm going to have to go to Plan B (Image for Windows).

[Sylvander]

Isn't there any USB driver for DOS supplied with your drive enclosure?

[Paul Komski]

I think that anyone having problems with Ghost should have a good read of the Radified Guide to Norton Ghost (http://ghost.radified.com/). The whole guide is downloadable as a zipped pdf file.

What caught my attention on page http://ghost.radified.com/external_drive.htm was:

Even though Ghost 2003 supports both NTFS and external USB drives, it cannot do so at the same time. The DOS driver that finds and mounts the external drive cannot read NTFS, even though once you get into Ghost, you *can* see NTFS drives. Therefore, if you plan to create Ghost images that involve external USB hard drives, they should be formatted as FAT32.

!!! ;) maybe

[Sylvander]

Hey Paul, have you lost interest in the EBCD thread? :(

I'm hoping you'll show me how to use a "USB for DOS" driver to give me access to to my external USB HDD [formatted as FAT32] using "Image" on the EBCD. :)

[FastLearner]

So Paul, does this mean that theoretically if I format one of my partitions of my usb external drive to FAT32, then I will be able to see it and write an image (of an NTFS drive) to it, as well as restore (to an NTFS drive) from it? If so, then to create a FAT32 partition, will using Windows format tool be adequate. I still happen to have two unformatted dpartitions on my usb drive. Perhaps the answer I'm looking for is in the link you provided, so let me go check that out. This would certainly explain a lot of my troubles, though...:)

Sylvander, nope no drivers came with my iomega drive... According to their help page, the only drivers that one can download are for Windows 98. All of the more recent OSes have built-in drivers that should be good enough...

[Paul Komski]

theoretically
Trial and error might just prove the theory.

Windows formatter should do it but remember that the WinXP formatter cannot make FAT partitions larger than 32GB.

[FastLearner]

Nope. I deleted all of my USB partitions and started from scratch. I was pretty confident it was going to work, but unfortunately I am getting the same exact error as before:

I created a new FAT32 15 GB primary partition at the front of the drive (left the remaining space unallocated for now) and rebooted to make sure Windows was seeing my drive. It was. I then went into Ghost, selected USB2 support like before, instructed it to my C drive to my F drive (my new FAT32 partition on the USB drive). Computer restarted to PC Dos, PC Dos saw my IOEMEGA drive like before, I was hit with the 40213 error again. Well, it was worth a shot...

[FastLearner]

BiNG is still not seeing the drive or the FAT32 partition either...

[jlreich]

FastLearner, how old is the laptop? I was thinking even if it is newer, it may be worth looking at the manufactures website to see if there is a BIOS update that may solve this problem. Or at least to see if there is a known problem with your make and model. I am of course not an expert, but it sure seems to me to be a hardware limitation since the problem is with both Ghost and BiNG.

Just a couple of thoughts. :)

[Sylvander]

Seems rather similar to the EBCD prog's being unable to access a USB external HDD.
Pretty sure that's because there's no USB for DOS driver being loaded.
Perhaps the drivers your softwares are loading are unsuitable?

If we could get the EBCD to work [with the USB HDD], at least that would be a forward step.

[FastLearner]

Well, I just went through the entire „Image for Windows“ and “Image for DOS” procedure exactly as you spelled it out, Paul. Everything was going great – created an image directly to my F:\ drive, made a nice bootable boot disk (with Image for DOS on it), booted to that CD, selected Restore - > From Partition -> USB2HD, and then it went bad again. The message each of the four times I let it search for the USB device for 5 seconds was: “No usable HD found. Please hit enter and wait 5 seconds before trying again.”

So what can we conclude (other than I should buy a new laptop with a FDD)? Is Sylvander's theory correct that this is definitely a driver issue? How can I fix this if my Iomega USB2 Desktop 160GB HDD does not offer any alternative drivers?

BTW, this is kind of ironic, but my brand of USB HDD used to come packaged with Norton Ghost...

[Sylvander]

"How can I fix this if my Iomega USB2 Desktop 160GB HDD does not offer any alternative drivers?"
Various DOS drivers are on offer at the the site Paul gave this link to http://www.bootdisk.com/usb.htm
I used method 3 to make a "USB 4 DOS Bootdisk", but when I boot from it, it doesn't detect any USB HDD. :(
"Duse.exe" [Method 1] was supplied with my external HDD, but I don't know how to use it.

[FastLearner]

Funny how they kept mentioning IOMEGA at the site: http://www.bootdisk.com/usb.htm

I have a feeling I'm not the first person to have to go through this. My problems with this site are:

1) There are 50 alternate solutions and I have no idea which one may do the trick.
2) I have no idea how to implement any of these solutions... What are all of these lines of code? - they look like startup instructions for a Windows 98 machine...

[Sylvander]

"What are all of these lines of code? - they look like startup instructions for a Windows 98 machine..."
I've forgotton most of the detail, but...
These commands determine how DOS and its prog's use RAM [very fundamental to the operation of both DOS and the Windows shell that needs DOS to do eveything for it. So you'll see these both in Windows and on bootable DOS floppies.
METHOD 1 - The DUSE System
e.g. In the config.sys file:
1. device=a:\himem.sys
This prog controls the use of higher memory.
2. devicehigh=a:\emm386.exe
This is the "Extended Memory Manager" that allows DOS prog's to operate from "Extended Memory" [in RAM].
3. dos=high,umb
This specifies that DOS is to run in the "Upper Memory Block" [frees up space in lower memory].
4. DEVICE=a:\duse.exe
Duse.exe is a device, and is to be run. I added a few parameters [from the list in "DUSEUsersGuide.pdf"] to control how it operates.

In the "Autoexec.bat" file:
"duseldr a:\duse.exe"
"duseldr.com" is to be used to run "duse.exe" [this used instead of running "duse.exe" using a command in "config.sys"].

I used Method 1 to add "duse.exe", "Himem.sys", & a "config.sys" file of my own composing to a bootable floppy. It seems to work, but I won't know for sure unless I can then run a prog to access the USB HDD, and I don't know how to do that, and Paul isn't helping for some reason.

[Paul Komski]

The following worked for me but you would need to use the boot floppy as an image to create a bootable CD in the absence of a physical floppy drive. I have been and am very busy during this window of good weather on the farm here.

Boot Floppy Diskette/Image containing>>>>>>>
GHOST.EXE
AUTOEXEC.BAT
COMMAND.COM
IO.SYS
MSDOS.SYS
CONFIG.SYS
di1000dd.sys
HIMEM.SYS
MOUSE.COM
USBASPI.SYS

Autoexec.bat edited to read>>>>>>
@echo off
SET TZ=GHO+05:00
MOUSE
echo Enter Ghost to load Norton Ghost

Config.sys edited to read>>>>>>>>
DOS=HIGH,UMB
lastdrive=Z
device=himem.sys
device=USBASPI.SYS /W
device=Di1000dd.SYS

Notes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Have no usb drive attached
Boot to this boot floppy or to the equivalent boot cd and wait until prompted to attach the USB drive and then press Enter. Hopefully your drive is recognised OK; the prompts will soon tell you.
Note to just use the /W switch with device=USBASPI.SYS /W
Enter ghost when you are ready and if no errors have shown up.

Ghost_2003_boot_floppy_for_WXP_Pro_SP2.zip from http://radified.com/Files/Ghost_2003_boot_floppy_for_WXP_Pro_SP2.zip and its contents modified as above.
Ghost.exe got from Norton 2003 software bundle that came with a CD burner.
USBASPI.SYS and di1000dd.sys got from http://radified.com/Files/usb-dos.zip It is unzipped and then MHAIRUDO.zip is unzipped and then these two files are copied from inside it.

I'm sure that there are other combinations and different drivers that should work better. This worked with my USB2 external storage but only at USB1.1 speed. It only worked with 2 out of 3 of them. I havent had time to do more than this.

It is obviously a very vexed area and USB support from DOS very very quirky. I would think the forums at Radified could be worth a visit.

As stated before, if I was getting all this hassle I would stick a 500-1000 MB primary FAT partition at the start of my main HDD and install Windows (any version after W98se) onto it. Just use it for imaging/troubleshooting. But it should make imaging between the rest of the drive and any usb attachments a synch. Hide this "imaging partition" when not imaging. I would use BiNG to choose between it and the main installation but there are a number of other ways of doing things - though not having a WinXP CD does limit your options. Since you are not going to use this installatin normally there's no need to customise all the usual program and settings on it and in the event of you losing your whole hard drive you would reinstall the OS into a similar partiton on a new drive and restore your main setup from the external.

The choices are obvioulsly yours. I wont be around much until it starts to rain again.

Similar stuff to Radified at: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10215

[FastLearner]

Thanks Paul. I guess my best bet at this point is to just swallow my pride and add a FAT partition to my laptop's hard drive. I am going to look back through this thread to see if I can get an idea of how to do this and which tool I can use for this (without risking my data that's already on my drive). Can I use BiNG Maintenance mode to do this?

Anyway, once I have accomplished this, I will have three partitions:
C:\ (FAT)
D:\ and E:\ (NTFS)

I need to make D:\ my default bootable partition (since it is my existing C:\ drive).
Also how will I be able to install Windows on my C:\ drive? Can I use the Emergency Restore CD to do this? What will this do for me?

Like I said, I'm going to look back thorugh this thread to find the answers to these questions, but there's a chance that a few of them have not been answered here.

[Paul Komski]

Before you try that you might just like to try out a Knoppix CD. Not to run Ghost from but primarily to see if it can see and access your external drive from. Trouble is the download iso is a biggish download. My guess is that if you boot to it with all relevant hardware attached, that it will see and identify all the external's partitions (as /dev/sda1, ...sda2, ... sda3 etc). If so then it means you would have the elusive way of copying an image file back from the external to your D: drive (which must be formatted as FAT; knoppix will read but not write to ntfs partitions) in the event of a total failure of your internal hdd. You could then use Ghost or Image for DOS to reinstate the image now replaced on D back to C and be back in business. Linux may seem a bit esoteric if you are not used to it but organising access and copying and pasting a couple of files is not going to be hard to talk you through.

If you want to make a new partition the least conflicting place to put it would be right at the end of the Hard Drive after resizing your D drive downwards (alternatively between the current C and D partitions). Just ensure it is a primary partition and formatted as FAT. Since you don't have a huge drive there shouldnt be any access limitations in this position. When you are ready to install an OS into it, it is best/safest to temporarily hide the C and D partitions. If, for any reason you get a ntldr is missing error after doing this - dont panic - it just means that either boot.ini or the positions of the partition tables need editing; BiNG should be all that you require to correct things.

One important tip is that after you make the third partition to first of all hide it BEFORE BOOTING into WinXP on the first occasion. This allows WinXP to retain the C and D drive letters for the current two partitions and edit its registry accordingly. You can unhide the partition any time you like thereafter. Learning to hide and unhide stuff is the fundamental way to avoid problems when multibooting, whatever method is used to manage the boot selection.

[FastLearner]

Hi Paul. I think I am going to give Knoppix a try. I just don't know what you mean by hiding the drive and why it is important.

My plan is to do the following:

1) Reduce the size of my D:\ drive with BiNG in maintenance mode.
2) Add a third FAT partition (5 GB?) to my drive. (not FAT32?)
3) ? (hide the drive)
4) boot to Knoppix
5) and then?

I will be downloading it overnight tonight, so I will be ready to proceed with the process tomorrow. Thanks.

[Fruss Tray Ted]

Yes. FAT32. I think Paul assumed you knew.

At over 100 posts in this thread,

1:
I'm so glad I partition my drives prior to loading my os'es! But I'm not using usb externals either as backups so we're all seeing if you will sort it out.
2:
You may want to consider modifying your username from 'fast' to 'not-so-fast'... :eek: ;) J/K!

[FastLearner]

You may want to consider modifying your username from 'fast' to 'not-so-fast'... :eek: ;) J/K!

Hey, that was a low blow ... :D

It's not my fault that no major corporation has been able to "truly" sort out usb access outside of the OS. Anyway, I've learned a lot from this thread, even if I still haven't solved the problem...:)

Knoppix is d/l 'ing as we speak. And then it's time to 'mess' with my functioning partitions - which is what I've been trying to avoid for the duration of this thread - oh well, can't win em all. Wouldn't it be ironic if I killed my hdd while partitioning it in order to back it up?

I'm praying that BiNG doesn't mess everything up here...

[Paul Komski]

You first use the iso to burn a bootable Knoppix distro.
Boot to the Knoppix CD (Try it first with the usb drive attached and the next time without it attached).
When Knoppix gets to the desktop you can minimise or close any open windows and you should be left with a desktop and some icons on it. These will mostly relate to your device drives/partitions. Any designated as hda1, hda2, etc will be partitions on your first (in your case your only) internal hdd. USB drives are designated using scsi emulation and so (as long as Knoppix has recognised your usb drive) it should have its partition icons designated as sda1, sda2, etc.

Single clicking on these should open a window and show you the contents of each partition. At the same time the icon will develop green corners showing that the partition has been mounted. RClicking and choosing mount would also mount the partitions. Partitions must be mounted before they can be used/accessed; it is sort of equivalent to designating a drive letter/label combination in Windows.

As with Windows you can RClick on Files inside these partitions and choose copy or paste. However before you can paste a copied file its partition must have its attributes set to be writable by choosing that option from the partition's RClick menu.

Also note that you can only paste to Linux or FAT partitions and not to NTFS partitions which are not yet writable (in a safe way anyways). I cant remember if you can write to the main windows partition if it contains the windows directory and is FAT - that may be another limitation but I think not.

If the usb (sda1 etc) partitions don't show-up when you boot up with the usb attached then try booting to the desktop and only then attaching the usb connector; normally the partitions inside it should then appear on the desktop after a short delay. If neither method shows the partitions then enter dmesg at a command prompt on a console. The icon to open the console is usually the sixth from the left of the taskbar counting away from the Start button and has a Shell on it. dmesg should give you some notes about any installed usb devices.

Since you are downloading today you should have version 3.6 or 3.9 both of which have native support for USB2. It was supposed to be there in 3.3 but wasnt. It may be necessary to enable this at boot up. Knoppix begins with a flashing cursor just before booting to the desktop and if you simply press enter at that stage the boot is normal. To ensure USB2 support (maybe do this a later stage) you would enter knoppix usb2 at that first command prompt.

Basically that is it and as long as the USB partitions are recognised you should be in business to copy any files from the USB drive to your "FAT FORMATTED" D: drive or from the IDE drive to any FAT FORMATTED partitions on the USB drive. Try copying pasting a couple of small files first since large files may take a while if only USB1.1 is running.

Fingers crossed. ;)

[Paul Komski]

Sorry I forgot to allude to:
I just don't know what you mean by hiding the drive and why it is important.
It is mainly in the context of mutibooting to the HDD that hiding can be important. It doesnt affect using Knoppix from a CD. It's relevance comes in if you intall a second OS to another partition in conjunction with a boot manager or if you resize or move (or effectively move) a Win2K/XP partition.

Point 1. The DOS-based Win9X/ME do not support multiple visible primary partitions on the selected boot drive. FDisk wont actually allow it but if one uses PM/BiNG etc then multiple primaries can be forced to coexist. If a second Win9x installation is setup in such circumstances unpredictable events (including autohiding) can occur and lead to failures to boot and the like. If all other primaries (other than the one being installed into) are marked as being hidden (during setup particularly) MS just treats them as non-existent/foreign partitions and effectively ignores them.

Point 2. Another confusing thing will be the way that Drive Letters are assigned. Under Win9x this is dynamic and ouside one's direct control. Having only one primary and any number of logicals simplifies Drive Letter assignments particularly if drives are later added or subtracted. Hiding a partition takes it out of these "calculations".

Point 3. When the NT-based OSes are installed they initially mimic the way Drive Letter Assignments are made under the DOS-based OSes. This results in Registry ID/Drive Letter value pairs written to the registry. The registry ID is an algorithm that relies on that specific HDD's disk signature and the position and size of all the partitions. Hidden partitions are not ignored in that they still get an ID but are not assigned a drive letter. In this way Drive Letters are "permanently" fixed to their partitions. When partititions are resized etc the algorithm also produces a new value and so that partition is now recognised AS NEW HARDWARE at the next boot time. If it is a partition involved in the boot processes the windows logical boot manager can get very confused and you can get a failure to boot that cant be easily or ever fixed because of the now very confused registry. Hiding a new partition during the first subsequent boot means it doesnt confuse the Drive Letter reassignments. After a subsequent boot there is no problem with it being made visible and getting a drive letter.

There are two basic ways of mutibooting. The MS way which routes everthing through a single primary partition and the 3rd party way which involves installing OSes into separate partitions, usually hiding these installation partitions from interacting with one another by the selection choices in the boot manager. Keeping multiple windows partitoins separate in this way and only using neutral partitons for data and the like is IMHO the least problematic way to maintain a multiboot system.

FAT32 is the best choice for neutral partitons unless you want them to be accessed by early versions of DOS or of WinNT both of which require FAT16. FAT16 would also work OK for smaller partitions but has a number of limitations.

[FastLearner]

So close but yet so far....:(



Here is my latest and greatest setup:

Internal HDD (40GB)
C drive (NTFS) – primary, roughly 20 GB, contents: Windows XP and programs
D drive (NTFS) – extended, 10 GB
E drive (FAT32) – extended, 10GB

USB2 Iomega external drive (160GB):
F drive (NTFS) – primary, roughly 20 GB, misc. contents
G drive (FAT32) – primary, 25GB, will be used to contain several Ghost images

I boot to Knoppix (Version 3.8) without issues. My drives appear on desktop as follows:

C drive – hda1
D drive – hda5
E drive – hda6
(what happened to hda2,hda3, and hda4?)

F drive – uba1
G drive – uba2

First I mounted all of the drives by single clicking them and letting the green arrow appear next to the corresponding drive icons. I then used Konquerer to copy a file from G (FAT 32). I attempted to paste this file to E (FAT32) and receive the error:

“Could not write to /mnt/hba6/file_name”

I have eliminated the NTFS issue from the equation by trying to read and write from and to FAT32 partitions. The only thing I can think of that may be causing this issue is that my C: drive is a primary partition but my D and E partitions are showing up as being extended. I must’ve goofed something from within BiNG, but I don’t know how I could have. Could this be a source of my current difficulties? I must admit I was at least impressed that Knoppix recognized and can read from all of my drives. It’s just too bad the Knoppix CD doesn’t have its own imaging and restoration application built in (not that I could find anyway)!

[Paul Komski]

“Could not write to /mnt/hba6/file_name”
Did you RClick on hda6 icon and choose "Change Read/Write Access" or similar. If you did there should be an option to change or retain the current setting. You would of course OK the write access; the partitions are all read only at start up.

what happened to hda2,hda3, and hda4?
They are reserved for primary partitions - thus the jump from hda1 (first primary) to hda5 (first logical).

One can directly "image" with native utilities. Notably dd. Type man dd at a command prompt to "read the manual" on it. I can come back to that later but it can be done. In my limited experience of using dd and associated commands I have found it a bit slow even on ide to ide drives - but there may well be embellishments such as enabling dma, etc, etc.

[Paul Komski]

Louis Lee's Post (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showpost.php?p=229267&postcount=14) on the full thread at http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36781 outlines the details of using dd but without using paths to files the file references would only copy to the ramdrive.

In my original response to that post I erroneously wrote that the way to backup the mbr would be:
dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb1/backup/hda-mbr-image bs=512 count=1
In your current situation that should be modifed to write the copy to say one of your usb drives (using a fs and not a dev reference which - being a relative n00b to Linux - was a mistake on my part.
You could try:-
dd if=/dev/hda of=/mnt/uba2/hda-mbr-img.bin bs=512 count=1
which should translate as input file = first hard drive output file = hda-mbr-img.bin in the /mnt/uba2 folder utilising just one block size of data of 512 bytes.

The four other "problems" with dd and gzip are that the compression could be much improved/embellished if I knew how, that the process has always seemed very slow to me but could probably also be embellished, you get no progress monitor and most importantly (when restoring to a drive) you must be absolutely sure that you are using the correct dd command line or you could wipe out the wrong thing with just one letter being wrong and you will not be given any warnings. You have been warned - the place to practice is not on a good system.

PS to use dd and the like you must be logged in as root.

[FastLearner]

Today is a GOOD day! Not only did I land my first I.T. job today (web applications developer/ network administrator), I also finally got to my usb drive and copied some test data to my internal drive all from outside of Windows!!! I used Knoppix, and Paul that last tip of enabling write access did the trick.

My next step is to create a Ghost image of C to my D partition. Then I will use Windows explorer to copy it to my USB drive for storage. Then it's as easy as booting to Knoppix, mounting the drives, enabling write access for my internal (FAT) drive, and copying the image back to this drive. I can then (hopefully) format the C:\ drive to simulate wiping all of my programs out, reinstall Windows, reinstall Ghost and restore the C:\ drive with the image found on my E:\ (FAT) drive. Does this sound about right? Any last minute tips before I go through with this last step (The moment of Truth is upon us!)? One important question: If I format C:\, this will not have any effect on my data found on drives D and E, correct?

Oh, by the way, being able to access and manipulate my Windows files with Knoppix got me to thinking that I was able to bypass my Windows password to do this. This means that anyone with a Knoppix CD can come along and manipulate data. Is there a way to protect against this, just out of curiosity?

[Paul Komski]

If I format C:\, this will not have any effect on my data found on drives D and E, correct?
Correct - as long as you do only format THE CURRENT C: Since this is an ntfs partition it will not be seen by dos (if you were thinking of formating from a Win9X boot floppy) so the first FAT drive, (your current D: drive), would become the C: drive from DOS and that is one way how you could format the wrong partition by mistake. Also I would not use fdisk to delete any partitions. In other words stay away from dos - other than running applications that use a nice gui from dos (such as Partition Magic).

If you had a WinXP CD you could do the formatting by starting a new installation, using the WinXP's disk management, use setup to format or delete the specific partition, and then back out of the installation per se. Better to do things using a 3rd Party Utility such as Ranish, Partition Magic or BiNG (maintenance). I'm sure you could also format hda1 using Knoppix. I have only done this once and am not familiar enough with it to advise of any potential problems. The other way of "deleting" the partition is to use PowerQuest's (now Symantec's) PTedit to write zero values to the C drive's partition table. If you write down the values before you do this you can get back to where you were by rebooting to the boot floppy with PTedit on it and write back in the original values. You could also get back if you have a way of restoring the mbr.

So a lot of different ways to skin this particular cat. Just be careful and try and confirm you are dealing with the correct partition before proceeding. Ensuring that all your Windows partitions have meaningful/recognisable labels can often help with such discrimination.

got me to thinking that I was able to bypass my Windows password to do thisIt's always educational to see how relatively insecure the MS OSes are. However, all you actually did was to access a non-system FAT partition. It is the nature of the file system that is important. There is much more inherent security on NTFS partitions particularly encrypted NTFS partitions. All FAT partitions are inherently insecure. Think about it; you would be able to access your current D: drive quite simply from a Win98 boot floppy without going to Knoppix at all.

By all means use Ghost for your imaging needs but you could cut down on one step by using IFW and create your backups from within Windows. Ghost 9 can apparently now do this hot imaging as well. Ghost9 or IFW would mean that you would only need to access first Knoppix and then Ghost or IFD (both from DOS) when you wanted to restore things from the externals.

Great that you had a good day - at last. ;)

[FastLearner]

Great Paul! Thanks again. I wasn't, by the way, thinking of using a dos floppy (remember I have no fdd), so no fear there. I will, however, rename all my partitions to make them easier to recognize (even though this doesn't seem to matter with Knoppix). I will let you know how this all turns out. It also looks like it'd be a good idea for me to upgrade my version of Ghost if I want to continue using it. You're right - my method just has one too many steps. Maybe I'll go with the IFW/IFD solution after all. Oh, and I still haven't given up on the Unix dd command, but I'm going to take this one step at a time. After all, there's no hurry now. The tough part (getting something to recognize and have access to my usb drive) is, thank God, behind us...:)

BTW, how long can I keep using the BiNG maintenance mode before the trial license expires? Or is this license only important if we install BiNG to our hard drives?

[Paul Komski]

Or is this license only important if we install BiNG to our hard drives?
You would have to read the licence or ask TerabyteUnlimited. My impression was that it got increasingly naggish over time - but I so liked the software and thought it such a reasonable price in comparison to most other similar utilities that I actually purchased it. Even if you can still functionally continue to use the software from the floppy/cd that doesnt' make it intrinsically legal.

I didn't reiterate the most important thing regarding any partitioning manouvres and which you almost certainly know anyways. Always back up any important data files on non-magnetic media if possible but certainly off the PC altogether, while such manouvres are being executed.

You have prompted me to send off for (no broadband here) an up-to-date Knoppix version (my latest is v3.3) to see if I can get USB2 support. One nice feature of my 1Gig Kingston Data Traveller is that it glows green if using USB1.1 and orange if using USB2.0. Thus I know immediately which mode it is in without having to time file transfers and such like.

[Sylvander]

I've been keeping up with this thread, and tried using Knoppix 3.8 to access my USB HDD and it worked! :)
Unfortunately I cannot access my internal HDD. :(
Would that be because of the DDO I'm using?

[Paul Komski]

I wasn't, by the way, thinking of using a dos floppy (remember I have no fdd), so no fear there.

It is worth restating that any boot floppy can be "turned into" a boot cd and that there are a number of ways of doing this. Probably the easiest for most is to use an actual physical boot floppy (for the floppy emulation) and then use Nero or similar burning software with the Floppy in its drive to burn the CD which will, in turn, mimic the bootable floppy.

In the absence of a floppy drive one can make (on another pc if necessary) and then use an image file of the relevant boot floppy diskette created with apps such as WinImage. One then uses that image file saved to disk (for the equivalent floppy emulation) when running the burning software.

There are also downloads of various boot floppy images that can be downloaded from bootdisk.com and the like and there are other utilities which can create a boot floppy image from the various constituent files from a program running on one's pc. Any such image files can be used for the floppy emulation.

Some programs will balk when run from CD if they need to write to the same "partition" that the utility is installed on. This isnt always obvious but if a utility just hangs when run from a boot CD this should be suspected. The way round this is to use a RAM drive or indeed any accessible hard drive partition and then copy your utility to that partition before running it from the command prompt. It is even worth saving copies of one's important utilities to the root of a FAT partition (to make them easy to find from DOS) and then all one has to do is to boot to any bog standard Win98 boot floppy/boot CD and run the utilities from where you have previously saved them on disk.

Many people, for example, also dont realise that they can run the dos versions of installed utilities such as AVG, PM and even Ghost (I believe) from the files already installed in their own hard drive folders by just accessing the dos versions of the files (the ones usually lacking a "32" epithet/suffix) from any boot floppy that can see the partition in question.

There is a Radified guide to making bootable cds/dvds at:-
http://nightowl.radified.com/bootcd/bootcdintro.html

Would that be because of the DDO I'm using?
I would guess so - is it time to ditch it??

[Sylvander]

"is it time to ditch it??"
I think so.
Already made one attempt at using an IDE controller card that failed, but I'm led to believe it should work if I do it right.
It's just rather bothersome, time consuming, and the transport costs almost as much as the hardware. :(

[FastLearner]

Well, I finally have a solution that works with Ghost (still using Ghost 2003 at the moment). My next mission in life is to try out the Image for Windows/Image for DOS solution. Then it's on to trying to do it all from within Linux with the DD shell command.

Anyone new to the thread who wants to jump straight to a solution of how to use Ghost along with a USB External Hard drive on a laptop without a floppy disk drive, please read further to see a simplified version of what worked for me:

Make the backup:

1) Create a FAT partition on your internal drive (we'll call it drive F). (leaving you with a fictional 2 partitions, C and F)
2) Run Ghost and write Image of C drive to F drive.
3) Use Windows Explorer to cut and paste (or just make another copy if you have a large enough internal drive, which I don't) the Image files to a partition on your USB drive (we'll call it drive U). This can be NTFS or FAT.
4) At this point you can safely (if you wish) delete the Image file from F (unless you want to keep it there, in which case you can skip the usb drive altogether!).

Restore the backup (assuming USB drive is still hooked up):
1) Use a Knoppix Linux bootable CD to boot into Linux (no need to install anything to your hard drive).
2) Mount the drives you intend to use by single clicking each of the drive icons on the Linux desktop.
3) Right click on the F drive and select that you want Write access to the drive.
4) Use Konquerer or another Linux program to copy and paste your Ghost Image files to your F drive.
5) Restart into Windows (or reinstall Windows and Ghost at this point if Windows won't work).
6) Run Ghost and choose to restore the C partition from the Image that is on the F drive.

That's it.

[Fruss Tray Ted]

FL,
Thanks for putting it all in a nutshell for all to see it in a nice compact solution.

But isn't the F: drive just what you are using due to your current setup? In other laptops I would think it could be others, so to amend your synopsis is to say *: drive where * is the partition where you want to temporarily place the image for later use for backup.

Better? :p

[FastLearner]

FL,
Thanks for putting it all in a nutshell for all to see it in a nice compact solution.

But isn't the F: drive just what you are using due to your current setup? In other laptops I would think it could be others, so to amend your synopsis is to say *: drive where * is the partition where you want to temporarily place the image for later use for backup.

Better? :p

Good point FTT. You are correct. The F:\ drive was just an example, which is why I added:

"Create a FAT partition on your internal drive (we'll call it drive F)."

...but I can see where that may be a little confusing. Just to clarify once again, the F drive from my example can be any partition on another internal hard drive, as long as it is using a FAT file system (very important). The drive letter itself can be whatever you choose it to be.

(thanks again for pointing that out, FTT) :)

[NightOwl]

FastLearner

USB was developed for the Windows environment after Microsoft had moved on and abandoned further DOS development.

So, USB under DOS, depends on the software developer as to how *universal* their driver is in mounting the hardware.

The *Panasonic USB DOS* driver has proven to have the greatest compatibility with various USB devices based on posts at Radified.com's Forums (http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi):

A Better USB 2.0 DOS Driver for Ghost + More!
(http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=10954382 51)

Hope this information helps you and others reading this thread.

[Paul Komski]

Thanks NightOwl. In fact an earlier post of mine in this thread http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showpost.php?p=235926&postcount=100 has an almost identical floppy setup and references the same usb drivers on the Radified site. I had problems with the /v /s switches for usbaspi.sys in config.sys but researched a bit and found that the /w switch worked for me.

The only USB device it had problems visualising was a composite ByteStor Pen Drive that holds both a 1.44 floppy and an ordinary storage drive on it. The real annoyance was that I could only get it to work at 1.1 speeds and couldn't get it to support USB 2.0.

[NightOwl]

Paul Komski

I assume you are loading the Panasonic USB driver v2.06. There has been two additional versions released that you could try:

v2.15 (http://panasonic.co.jp/pcc/products/drive/combi/kxlcb35an/driver/kxlcb35an.exe), size=39,093, dated 10/26/2003

v2.20 (http://panasonic.co.jp/pcc/products/drive/other/driver/f2h_usb.exe), size=39,179, dated 11/07/2004

These are self-extracting files. You will find USBASPI.SYS in the F2H subdirectory.

[Paul Komski]

Thanks for the pointers. I actually discovered once I investigated, that I had actually been trying a pre v2.06 version - so not surprising I only had USB 1.1 access. USB 2.0 was enabled as soon as I changed to the v2.06 version; the v2.20 version also works just fine.

I thought that running Ghost was going to be straightforward but DOS froze once I tried to access a file in the USB drive. I also got system freezes (all from a DOS boot floppy diskette) when trying to run Partition Magic and Drive Image. It must be related to the USB drivers (or to the USB drive itself I guess) since all three apps run OK when no USB device is attached.

Thanks again for posting here. I note that you recommend a simplified autoexec.bat file, which I have also now tried though I don't see any obvious difference. Basically I rem'd out the line SET TZ=GHO+05:00 perhaps you know what this line is supposed to achieve.

[NightOwl]

Paul Komski

You lost me above--you said USB with Ghost under pre-v2.06 didn't work, then said it did with v2.06 and v2.20--but then said it didn't--'DOS froze once I tried to access a file in the USB drive. I also got system freezes (all from a DOS boot floppy diskette) when trying to run Partition Magic and Drive Image'.

I have full access to my USB HDD using the DOS PartitionMagic v8.x while using the Panasonic DOS USB v2.06 or above. But, I'm sure it still boils down to 'does your particular hardware have compatibility with the software'.

Are you loading any other DOS drivers with the Panasonic Driver? For instance, I have found that on my system, that it is important to load the Panasonic Univeral USB driver files( i.e. *Device=usbaspi.sys /e /v* and *Device=di1000dd.sys*) before the *oakcdrom.sys* driver that mounts my optical drives, because the system will hang more often then not if the *oakcdrom.sys* is loaded first.

SET TZ=GHO+05:00 perhaps you know what this line is supposed to achieve

You won't find anything under Symantec's website or the Norton Ghost User Manual, but I did find this at a competitor's website:

How to Set a Time Zone for Image for DOS (http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=260)

Please note that establishing a time zone environment variable is only necessary and applicable when saving images to NTFS partitions, or to CD/DVD discs.

It seems to have something to do with setting the correct time zone, and therefore the correct time/date stamp on the files created, but it's not exactly clear what that accomplishes while in DOS! Must add some *internal file tag* in the files for when they are later read in Windows or Ghost Explorer programs from within Windows.

I've never paid any attention to that! I will have to go back and look at some file dates to see if they have any problems--but, I suspect it only effects things on certain systems and under certain circumstances--which I confess, I have no knowledge about!

The 'GHO' is just a required time zone designation place holder--in this case I guess meaning 'Ghost'--something like PST = Pacific Standard Time in the USA.

[Sylvander]

Sorry to break in.
I've been following this with interest.
Any chance of helping me in this thread or in another with a related problem?

1. I run various prog's from the "Emergency Boot CD" [EBCD], the most important being "Image" [making and restoring backup images].

2. I have DDO software in use.
Loading that from the HDD, then [at the DDO banner] using "Smart Boot Manager" to boot from the EBCD. "Image" can run from that and see the internal HDD [C: D: E: F: G: with Win98SE on C:], but not the USB HDD [J: storage only].

3. Is it possible to use this USB2 driver for DOS to allow the prog's on the EBCD to access the USB HDD?

[Paul Komski]

LOL - "TZ = Time Zone" - who'd have guessed it. Yep that can get ditched.

My problem with the pre v2.06 version was not to do with Ghost per se but that I only had USB 1.1 and not 2.0 support (which now makes sense). I personally was not all that bothered about Ghost working as such because as long as I could copy and paste files to and from the USB drive (at USB 2.0 rates) I could run Ghost or DI or IFD directly from a floppy or CD or from a small DOS utility partition that I keep at the front of an IDE HDD.

In fact if I boot to a Win98 boot floppy (with no special USB drivers at all) my own hardware detects my USB drive OK all on its own (the BIOS must be report it to the system) but (a) Only at USB 1.1 speed and (b) when Ghost is started I get an internal inconsistency error no matter what I try to do with Ghost. PM and DI however BOTH WORK FINE but just very slowly when accessing the USB drive.

I thought if I could get USB 2.0 support that would cure everything (for me) - BUT - although I can now get USB 2.0 speeds, PM and DI both freeze and though I can get further into Ghost with no inconsistency errors, if I try to open or save .gho files (from any partition) causes a freeze. All these freezes are total and attempts to reboot with CTRL+ALT+DEL fail. Other DOS utilities can access all the drives with no problem (eg PTedit and Mbrwork) function just fine, so its all a bit puzzling.

Its hard to know if its a USB drivers problem or a basic hardware problem or indeed a file system problem. It would of course be nice to know the actual reason but it doesn't bother me personally since I'm a terabyteunlimited fan and only use Ghost for testing and researching purposes. I just wanted USB 2.0 support and if I'd installed the correct drivers the first time round I would have had it some time ago.

Are you loading any other DOS drivers with the Panasonic Driver?

Nope - and no CDROM support at all and no other USB devices on the PC.

Config sys reads:-
DOS=HIGH,UMB
lastdrive=Z
device=himem.sys
device=USBASPI.SYS /W
device=Di1000dd.SYS

Autoexec bat reads:-
@echo off
rem SET TZ=GHO+05:00
MOUSE.COM

[NightOwl]

Sylvander

Hey--no problem--I think I may be the one who 'broke-in' here ;) !

1. I have no experience with EBCD.

2. I have no experience with DDO...what does that stand for?

3. I have used the Panasonic USB DOS driver for all DOS programs to access my USB HDD while booted to DOS--I have not done extensive testing to see if there is a program that doesn't work, but so far never a problem!

So if you can edit the *config.sys* to load the programs and you can put the files on the bootable EBCD CD so they are loaded during boot--only trying would answer the question on your particular system--but, worth the try...?

[NightOwl]

Paul Komski

Are you loading any other DOS drivers with the Panasonic Driver?

Nope - and no CDROM support at all and no other USB devices on the PC.

Actually, you might be...without knowing it! You said:

In fact if I boot to a Win98 boot floppy (with no special USB drivers at all) my own hardware detects my USB drive OK all on its own (the BIOS must be report it to the system) but (a) Only at USB 1.1 speed and...

If you have 'native' access to the USB HDD at 1.1 speed...then a DOS USB driver at the BIOS level must be loading! Check out your BIOS settings--I'm betting there are 'legacy' USB settings that can be 'enabled/disabled' to allow access to USB devices in DOS--usually USB mice and keyboards.

If you can disable that BIOS support for USB, you may eliminate what I'm guessing is a memory conflict with the Panasonic USB driver loaded by *config.sys* that may be causing the freeze.

Worth a try...?

[Paul Komski]

In the BIOS setup, USB mouse and keyboard were already disabled. On chip USB was enabled but disabling it of course prevented all USB access from DOS or Windows.

There's a lot of quirkiness with USB that has yet to be sorted out. My mobo (Biostar M7VIK) purports to support booting to USB as fdd, hdd, cd and zip but I've never been able to boot to my 1GB Kingston Data Traveler FlashDrive with any of those BIOS settings. Well not from the BIOS that is, only from BootItNG, which just goes to show that the boot partition itself is fully functional on the drive if the bootsrap code can be directed to it.

My Kingston DT has a couple of nice features; it flashes fast when i/o is happening and it glows green with USB 1.1 and then goes orange with USB 2.0. So when I boot to that floppy with the usb 2.0 drivers on it you can see it green until the prompt to insert the usb drive appears and then it turns to orange!

I actually have a slightly complex setup with Raptors in a SATA-RAID1 as well as an IDE PATA-RAID0 (both using onboard promise controller); then there is a conventional IDE drive and the Removable Storage Data Traveller.

Possibly flashing my ROM might improve the way the BIOS is reporting the hardware but I think my own problems lie with how USB drives are "enumerated" and whether as FDD, IDE or SCSI; this would be further complicated by the two RAID arrays which AFAIK also become enumerated as SCSI devices - at least for bootability purposes - and I suspect that USB drives often use SCSI emulation into the bargain; (they certainly did so under Knoppix Linux until recently).

Thus although I can boot to the USB drive from BootItNG I have found that this makes another boot option in BiNG (for any partitions on the RAID arrays) to get lost if the USB drive is attached from start up. Some interference going on there then.

So there does at least seem to be a common factor when using PM, DI and Ghost in that all three apps start to load but then go crazy and my best guess is they are confused by whatever scsi enumeration is going on in the background. What is important and relevant to this thread is that the panasonic drivers to enable USB 2.0 work very well. I am a happy bunny and the quirkiness of my system is just fine for the time being.

BTW, when booted to the FlashDrive, Partiton Magic works normally but Ghost doesnt want to play at all with its "internal inconsistency" messages.

[Sylvander]

"I have no experience with EBCD."
See this http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=37571

"DDO...what does that stand for?"
DDO = Dynamic Drive Overlay.

"you can put the files on the bootable EBCD CD so they are loaded during boot"
Paul Komski helped me add some customisations to the EBCD at the thread in the link above. Perhaps you could help me there add these "USB2 for DOS" drivers to the EBCD? I've made the floppy disk as per your instructions, but I'm unsure about the customisations of the "config.sys" & "autoexec.bat" files to suit my situation. Most certainly worth trying! :D

[FastLearner]

Holy cow you guys are good!!!

[NightOwl]

Sylvander

I looked at that thread, and the EBCD website--I did not see any resource at the website to explain how to create, use, modify the EBCD--may be inside the downloaded installation program.

But, I have no experience with EBCD, so I don't know if additional DOS device drivers can be added to the boot routine of the EBCD.

Maybe Paul Komski or some other member of this forum that has experience with EBCD can help out.

[Sylvander]

When the downloaded file is unpacked, there's a file named "ebcd_readme.htm" that explains "How to". [I find it difficult to follow.]
Paul explained in the thread how to use a couple of those techniques to add to the EBCD. [I followed those successfully, but haven't gained full understanding of what's going on.]
Perhaps if you followed the instructions [on the thread and in the file] you could make an EBCD for yourself and then try customising it.
That might give you some understanding of how that works, then combining that with what you know of the USB drivers for DOS, we might have a solution.
Paul Komski is the only person helping with this so far [on that thread], but has backed off saying he's rather busy on the farm.

[Paul Komski]

Yes I am busy and sort of lost interest in that thread. Basically you first need a functioning floppy diskette with the usb support working on it. You would then make an image file of that floppy and then add that image to run (from a customised RAMdrive) as one of the items on the first menu. It may be possible to add usb support globally to an EBCD (as with CDROM and Mouse support) but it is not nearly so straightforward and not something I have contemplated.

A BART PE CD would probably be a better way of utilising native usb support in its WinXP preinstalled environment.

[Sylvander]

"It may be possible to add usb support globally to an EBCD (as with CDROM and Mouse support)"
That's what I was hoping to do.
If [as the alternative] I was to include it as an option to select to run, would it be possible to run other programs afterward that would then have access to USB connected devices?

[Paul Komski]

would it be possible to run other programs afterward
I don't know. It's not that straightforward. When configuring the panaosonic floppy setup, for example, there are two main components - to setup usb support and to assign a drive letter to a usb drive (or if you prefer to recognise the drive or device). Adding such support to an EBCD would have to take into consideration any RAMdrives and floppy emulation. In other words when EBCD is running there is already an interplay between drive mapping and what the BIOS is reporting - that's why I would be sceptical of getting a good result - particularly a global result.

[Sylvander]

"that's why I would be sceptical of getting a good result - particularly a global result"
Understood.
I'm feel sure this kind of thing is worth the effort.
You telling me about the "Smart Boot Manager" allowed me to access my HDD using "Image" and thus to be able to make and restore backup images.

SUPER BONUM! :D

[Tarc]

Hi, stumbled in on this via a search, hopefully there's still people around discussing it.

So what I have is an NTFS-formatted 160G external USB drive. We use ImageCast here to image PCs, so what I'd like to do is be able to pile all the image files to the external drive and boot off of either the external drive itself, or a floppy/CD that'd be able to access both the internal and external drives for imaging.

From what I've seen elsewhere and read here, is this not possible at the moment? I'd thought of doing a 30G FAT32 partition and leave the rest as NTFS for other things, but that's more of a last resort-ish solution.

[Sylvander]

"or a floppy/CD that'd be able to access both the internal and external drives for imaging."
Go back to where NightOwl [on 07-09-2005] told us of his "USB for DOS" drivers [on a bootable floppy] making it possible to save images direct to & restore direct from an external USB HDD.
Paul Komski [on 07-10-2005] said that whereas previously he could only get USB1.1 he could now get USB2 whilst doing this.
I wanted to try to add this capability to a bootable "Emergency Boot CD" [EBCD], but no-one feels able to do that, or advise how, though I'm sure it must be possible.
The EBCD can be customised by adding programs like "ImageCast" to it.

[Tarc]

"or a floppy/CD that'd be able to access both the internal and external drives for imaging."
Go back to where NightOwl [on 07-09-2005] told us of his "USB for DOS" drivers [on a bootable floppy] making it possible to save images direct to & restore direct from an external USB HDD.
Paul Komski [on 07-10-2005] said that whereas previously he could only get USB1.1 he could now get USB2 whilst doing this.
I wanted to try to add this capability to a bootable "Emergency Boot CD" [EBCD], but no-one feels able to do that, or advise how, though I'm sure it must be possible.
The EBCD can be customised by adding programs like "ImageCast" to it.

I think the "USB for DOS" is one I've tried before. I was able to get it to work fine to recognize a small 128M USB thumb drive (FAT32), but I've tried it for the big NTFS drive and it just hangs on the "...detecting USB drives..." part.


Tried downloading this;

http://www.ntfs.com/boot-disk.htm

and while within its little shell/explorer kinda browser, I can see all the files on the internal and external NTFS drives just fine, but if I could still have that same access while sitting at actual C: and D: prompts so I could run things, I'd be in heaven.

[Paul Komski]

If the NTFS reader can read the structures on the external then it sounds like your BIOS is reporting the drive correctly but that you just cannot write files to it.

It sounds like the resolutions could be:
To use FAT partiton(s) on the external.
To install the full paid for version of NTFS for DOS (with Writability) http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/NtfsDos.html
If your BIOS can be set to boot from the external then perhaps you could install Win2K/XP directly onto the external.
Use a BartPE CD to access the external http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/