Win98SE Registry FAT Problem

[Singtell]

Hi There
I'm using Win98SE and have been for the last 3 years without
any single problem.
Last night when booted up it started up as usual with the loading/checking
of RAM test/drivers and then the Win logo and only to end up
with the F8 command (although I did not type it) saying I have no
choice but to choose the Command C prompt and that I must run
Scanreg. I did as told but when coming to the scandisk part, the
system hung at the 10% mark and stating that there is a FAT
problem in the Registry.
I have very important data in my 30GB Seagate HDD which I must not
format.
I've tried fdisk_/mbr and scanreg_/restore as well as fdisk/status too and
without success.
However, when in DOS mode, the C drive can be read.
Pls assist
Regards

[justindeen]

Hi,

I know there are registry fixing tool on the market, try a search on google and see if this works?

Any chance you have a back up of your registry?

There are also very good data recovery/diagnostic tools (try get wintech administrator pack - if you use bearshare *peer-to-peer file sharing tool* you can get a free copy very easily).

I have seen instances where windows directories are completely wiped out!
The administrator pack supplies a boot cd enabling you to run loads of diagnostic tools to fix common problems (registry and so forth).

Regards
Justindeen

[Sylvander]

I take it Windows would not boot [serious problem with the configuration or the Windows files]?
And you were taken to the startup menu?
But even "Safe Mode" was not functional?
So it fell back to the command prompt?
And instructed you to run Scandisk or Scanreg [which?]
You ran Scandisk and it reported a problem with the FAT on the HDD? [The registry shouldn't come into this]
Try to give greater [and correct] detail of what happens at startup.
Perhaps you should try "Step-by-step Confirmation" to see if you get to the point where Windows begins loading before the problem arises?

SCANREG /RESTORE should have fixed a configuration [registry] problem if you'd picked a copy that didn't include the problem. Did you restore a backup copy made before the problem was introduced?
It may be a problem that's affecting the files and that's why restoring a good configuration isn't fixing it.

Do you have any backups of the C: partition made when all was well, that you can restore?
Or even a backup of the Windows folder you can restore?
Or you could try running "setup.exe" to "Repair" the Windows installation.

A typical and successful startup sequence
1. http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/index.htm
2. Yes: The system power supply is functioning
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/power1.htm
3. Yes: Something is being written to the screen during boot up [This may be only a flashing cursor]
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/video1.htm
4. The video BIOS message is displayed on the screen for a few seconds and then clears from the screen, or more messages display under it
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/vbios1.htm
5. Yes: The system BIOS startup screen is appearing
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/bios1.htm
6. The memory test completes successfully
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/ram1.htm
7. The BIOS accesses the floppy drives and the boot continues
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/seek1.htm
8. The system is able to autodetect IDE devices successfully
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/auto1.htm
9. The system is not Plug and Play compatible, has no Plug and Play devices, or has PnP devices but identifies them properly
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/pnp1.htm
10. Boot sequence is A: before C: (floppy disk first)
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/seqAC.htm
11. The floppy disk makes a noise and the light comes on
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/fd1.htm
12. The floppy disk light goes off and the hard disk light comes on as it starts booting
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/fd1hdd.htm
13. The hard disk boot process will continue here, if you want to follow it.
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/hd1.htm
14. The system continues booting from the hard disk and the message "Starting MS-DOS" or "Starting Windows 95" is displayed
http://www.pcguide.com/ts/x/boot/walk/hd1os.htm
15. Operating System Loaded From Hard Disk. The system has found a boot sector on the hard disk and is now starting the load of the operating system. The hard disk is working. You have successfully completed the hardware part of the boot process. Any problems encountered after this point should be diagnosed by looking for a more specific problem with a component, or under the section that contains run-time error messages.

[Quantax]

Hi,

I know there are registry fixing tool on the market, try a search on google and see if this works?


Justindeen
But in my experience these may create more problems than they solve. I'm thinking of one in particular that "discovered" all kinds of things which really weren't problematic at all since the Registry was behaving just fine.

[Singtell]

Hi There again

Yes, Boot-up with a single beep ok
Video BIOS message ok
System BIOS ok
Memory RAM tested ok
Boot sequence from A then C goes on ok
IDE detection of HDD and CD-Rom ok
Plug N Play ok

After the above sequence completed successfully, this comes on:
Verifying DMI Pool Data………. And Win98 Logo comes on ok
The system then does a MS ScanDisk and stopped at 10% of scanning
No activity was monitored for abt 5 minutes.
After that this appears… “ ScanDisk encountered a data error while reading
FAT on drive C.
This error prevents ScanDisk from fixing this disk.”

The only option is to enter OK
Again no activity was monitored for abt 8 minutes and then
This appears….. “While initializing device VKD:
Windows protection error”
With a minus (-) sign cursor blinking forever.

Can access A drive by using start-up diskette
This way I can also access my CD-Rom drive as well as my C drive (HDD)
All in DOS mode, I suppose.

Most Registry recovery/utilities files are Windows-based therefore
I doubt I can use them.

Thanks all.

[Sylvander]

"Verifying DMI Pool Data………."
This could be a significant clue to the cause of the problem. Normally this is only displayed when there has been an alteration, often for the worse.
See http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000474.htm
Are all the drive types set to "Auto" in the BIOS Setup?
Apparently the BIOS doesn't detect a serious problem [though there may be a problem (perhaps with the BIOS configuration settings for the HDD)], and continues to attempt to boot Windows, but without success.
I'd like to know WHY it runs Scandisk. Probably detecting that all is not well, but what?

Check all settings in the BIOS Setup that might affect the operation of the HDD.
Check the HDD out using the HDD manufacturers utilities on a floppy.
Run Scandisk, but not from the HDD, and you need a copy that will actually fix any problems it finds. Not sure how. The Windows CD includes a copy and so does a Win98 Startup floppy. The copy I've used that I know fixes problems is the copy on the "Emergency Boot CD".

"“While initializing device VKD: Windows protection error”"
Windows was unable to initialise the keyboard?
Was it able to initialise ANY devices I wonder?
Normally I'd say you should use "Step-by-step Confirmation" to study all the command steps, but your PC won't allow you to choose that from the startup menu, and anyway, Windows doesn't allow intervention once it begins loading. It would be nice to try it if the PC would allow.

Do you have any backups [of C:] you could restore?
It couldn't do any harm [provided you haven't changed hardware or software] to use SCANREG /RESTORE [at a DOS command prompt] to restore a configuration backup [automatically made by Windows on the 1st successful boot of each new day] made before the problem arose.
[Much better than attempting to REPAIR the registry.]

[classicsoftware]

The file allocation table is corrupted.

Get another hard drive and copy the data off ASAP.

Once you have the data off, you can use disk tools like Norton Utilities Disk Doctor to try and repair the drive.

You could also download the diagnostic utilities from the HDD manufacturers web site.

[Sylvander]

I believe an "AVG Rescue Disk" [if you made one][or similar] will rebuild your HDD System Area [including the FAT] using the backup [of the system area] that it makes on the floppies.

[Paul Komski]

I agree with Classicsoftware. If this is vital data then stop using or accessing this drive until:-
(a) you have a copy of the drive that you can experiment with (best option)
or
(b) access the drive slaved to another pc and retrieve the vital data from it with a DIY software program such as GetDataBack for FAT from www.runtime.org

The "Verifying DMI Pool Data ..." message is normal - it is only abnormal if the system hangs at this point. It seems to go beyond this point and then balk when it finds the unrepairable (by scandisk) FAT tables.

Such corrupted FAT tables are probably unrepairable by other means but unless your drive is very heavily fragemented there is a good chance of good recovry with GDB or similar. Such software uses very clever algorithms to stitch your data back togethere and can be surprisingly successful.

DOS can probably just see the "Directory Structure" but I doubt if it can actually copy and paste any files to get stuff back that way. The Directory structure comes after the FATs but then needs to use uncorrupted FATs to find the data on the drive.

[Paul Komski]

I believe an "AVG Rescue Disk" [if you made one][or similar] will rebuild your HDD System Area [including the FAT]
I doubt it - just one FAT on a smallish FAT32 400MB partition could easily take up 3MB.

By all means try copying your files directly when slaved to another PC before trying DIY recovery programs - maybe you will get lucky.

[Sylvander]

"I doubt it - just one FAT on a smallish FAT32 400MB partition could easily take up 3MB."
My "AVG Rescue Disks" span 5 floppies. The backup files total 4,762kB.
What do you reckon these would hold if they don't include the FAT's?

QUOTE
"Rescue Disk is an indispensable tool that can save you in the event of damage to system areas or virus infection that cannot be remedied within the Microsoft Windows environment.
Rescue Disk enables you remove viruses or restore system areas using the MS-DOS environment. It includes a DOS version of the AVG Free, a backup of system areas, and the system files"

[classicsoftware]

It does mot make sense to restore the FAT when the drive itself is bad as appears to be the case. He needs to get the data off first and THEN play with the drive or pretty soon his data will be poof..... :eek:

[Paul Komski]

Apart from the size of the FATs they are not something one would ever go back in time to restore. Their contents are dynamic and change with every file change on the drive. To simply go back and "restore an ancient FAT" would not link up with where the data currently resides on your drive.

I expect that most of the space on your floppies is virus definitions but you have the disks and should be able to see what is on them.

[Sylvander]

"Their contents are dynamic and change with every file change on the drive."
DUH, of course, why didn't I think of that? :confused:
I'd love to have an image in mind of what restores what.
An image of the C: partition versus an ordinary backup plus the AVG backup of the "System Area".
Which, if any, would include the FAT?

"I expect that most of the space on your floppies is virus definitions but you have the disks and should be able to see what is on them."
4 of the 5 disks are mostly occupied by the "avi7.xxx" files, which I assume are the backup file set of the "System Area". But perhaps they are the "Virus Definitions". It seemed to me that the bigger the file system became, the bigger that file set became. Or was it the increase in partition size that did it I wonder?

[Paul Komski]

http://www.grisoft.com/doc/Updates/lng/us/tpl/tpl01

Note the three references to AVI files - all being updates for June 3, 2005; the relevant one for any system depending on how recently it was last updated.

The first is for the full AVI: 267.6.1 (on its own) = 4.8MB

Then there are two min.AVI files (267.0.0) and (267.6.0) both being incremental updates measured in kB.

An image of a partition would include everything from the first to last sector of the partition, whether in raw or compressed format. The "system" area of a partition varies in size from partition to partition depending on the file format involved. That value under Windows or DOS (i.e. the reserved sectors value of the BIOS parameters block stored at offset 0x000E of the boot sector) is likely to be just one for FAT16 or in the 30s for FAT32 and represents an area between the boot sector and the start of FAT1. With NTFS there are usually no reserved sectors since everything (including all the metadata) other than the boot sector is a file. I haven't yet learned how to decipher an ext2 or reiserf Linux boot sector but I would guess it parallels an NTFS partition since everything under Linux is a file as well.

Note that if there is both a boot and a system partition (say the first partiton is marked as active but the Windows folder is on another partition) then both boot-sector-related system areas for both partitions would need to be backed-up. Finally, the whole of track0 (which includes the mbr of course) should also be backed-up. Any time a partition is moved, resized, reformatted, converted, etc, these system areas should be backed up afresh.

My guess is that AVG either just backs up the MBR or the whole of track0. The whole of track0 should always be backed when using any drive overlay, boot managers and so on. The partition tables are the most important area to have backed up, either as a file or just by writing down the values, since it is then straightforward to find all the partition boot sectors with a disk hex editor; the remainder of the mbr can be rebuilt with fdisk /mbr or fixmbr as appropriate.

[Singtell]

Hi To All of You Once again!

I tried the AVG recovery process, 5 disks in all.
But before I did that I took hours to copy all data from
existing HDD to a spare slave HDD.
After following the process and gone thru the 5 disks,
I re-boot and found that the HDD contains all foreign language,
i.e. all data currupted and without a command.com.
Of-course I had to copy into it first.
When doing a "dir" on the HDD there's the usual funny scrolling
sound that comes together with the foreign language.
I'm lost now.
Regards

[Sylvander]

Had you an AVG Rescue Disk set made before the problem arose?
Had you updated it after each time [if] you repartitioned the HDD?
So it was up-to-date and applied to the Partitions as they now exist?

[Paul Komski]

I've suggested it before and I reiterate that you should stop trying to access this drive from the current hard drive or you increase the likelihood of never getting back your data. Slave the drive to another computer or to another drive with an operating system on the same computer and run recovery software such as GetDataBack - RUN FROM THE GOOD SYSTEM.

If Scandisk didn't repair the corrupted FATs then its likely nothing will and you are likely to only be able to recover unfragmented files on your system.

But before I did that I took hours to copy all data from
existing HDD to a spare slave HDD.
You don't say how you did this but if you just copied files then I'm not surprised at the result. You need to clone your drive sector by sector using imaging software so that the copy is a true copy of your drive, corrupted FATs and all.

AVG Recovery diskettes will not restore corrupted FATs.

PS
Since you have a second HDD you could install a version of windows onto it , then install GDB onto it and then slave your current bad drive and attempt recovery of data from it.

[Sylvander]

"AVG Recovery diskettes will not restore corrupted FATs."
So if someone wanted to restore EVERYTHING [including the FAT's], how would it be done?

[Singtell]

Hi All Masters!
Very sorry for the long lapse as I was on holiday.
I've managed to connect the problem HDD to my other spare and
good working HDD, i.e. Good HDD=C drive and Bad HDD=D Drive.
Using DOS I successfully copied most of the important
data to my C Drive. I don't know if it works if I were to
use EXPLORE to transfer the data.
It was very time consuming but the effort paid off.
I don't dare using GetBackData or Restorer2000 as I
was not sure of using them. Maybe I can experiment on
it when I have the spare time and You masters can tell
me the procedures and expectations.
Thanks once again for your precious time!
Finally, can some masters please tell me what key(s) to press
during bootup if I want to do a BIOS setup. I've got a Gateway
Performance PC in a St Francis Mid Tower casing.
I tried "DEL" , "CTL+ESC" but unsuccessful. Please assist
again. Tks once again. Cheers!

[Paul Komski]

So if someone wanted to restore EVERYTHING [including the FAT's], how would it be done?
I believe I answered this once before in relation the the AVG "system backup". The only way to restore the FATs is to restore an image file coz the snapshot of the FATs and the Data on the Drive were preserved simultaneously. The FATs are a dynamic "daisy-chain" representing where all the file allocation units for a file are kept on the drive. If the daisy-chain gets broken then there is no way of repairing it. Occasionally one FAT can be restored from its mirror or FAT1 can be turned off and FAT2 turned on; that is where scandisk comes in. If there are bad sectors in the FATs (the most common reason for such corruption) then you are generally snookered; bad sectors for data can be marked as such (this is normally done IN THE FATs actually) so that they are never re-used. But the FATs don't reference themselves so if they get corrupted - that is that.

I don't dare using GetBackData
One of the features of GDB is the ability to make a raw image file of the partiton or drive. You can do this from step 2 from its Tools menu. Having made the image onto your good drive you can then disconnect the bad drive totally if you want to. Then run GDB again but choose to recover from the image file rather than from any physical partition or drive. That makes it quite safe to experiment since the drive itself is now safely off the computer.

Gateway Performance PC BIOS SETUP
Seems to be mostly F1 or F2: http://support.gateway.com/s/PC/Shared/BIOS.shtml

You may also get a better chance to read any settings written to the monitor from the first screen by hitting the pause button.

[Singtell]

Hi Paul
Many thanks for all the advice.
Gateway's BIOS set-up is F1 and works fine.
Thanks once again.
Cheers!