Dude, Your gettin' Dell-PreInfested

[pop pop]

http://www.theregister.com/2005/07/15/dell_my_way_controversy/

WARNING: DELL AND AOL BASHING ZONE AHEAD

You just gotta love Dell. They kill their online support--too many customers complaining? Disconnect. Now they have to defend why they pre-load systems with spyware. Good business practices Michael. And AOL will not infest your PC either.

We will enhance your surfing experience, whether you like it or not.

[123456]

Wow...I'm speechless

[Rick]

If you read the artical it said it all.

A Dell spokesperson said concerns about the product were misplaced. "My Way is not a spyware product and it does not monitor user's behaviour.


The Rep's at Dell are Clueless as to what spyware is ..


Myway affiliated site, helping their product serve you targeted advertising based on surfing habits of its users.


Based on their End User License Agreement, they may also choose to correlate the anonymous surfing habits with your personal profile

I love it..
It just shows how out of touch these people at Dell are

[Paul Komski]

At the bottom of the article there's a link to:-

Deleting spyware: a criminal act? (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/25/deleting_spyware/)

It caught my eye and ends with:-

The lesson of all of this is, if you get a bargained-for benefit from downloading and installing a program in return for agreeing to provide something (such as your personal information), not only may the distributor be guilty of a deceptive trade practice if it doesn't fully explain what the program does, you may also be guilty of a deceptive practice if you don't live up to your end of the bargain. Another full employment program for lawyers!

[HeadachesAbound]

Just install Linux and be done with it.

[hockey man]

How can I check to see if I have that stuff on my dell dimension 4700?

[pop pop]

SImple. Run HJT and save a log. It may even show up in Add/Remove programs.

[Paleo Pete]

It may even show up in Add/Remove programs.

My Way does show up in Add/Remove Programs, or should, and it's not difficult to uninstall. And if I remember correctly AdAware also locates and removes some leftovers after the uninstall is done, but I'm not positive about the leftovers, it's been a couple of weeks since I've removed it from a machine and so many of these garbage programs leave plenty residue after the standard "uninstall"...

[PrntRhd]

I think this is due to HP/Compaq getting away with loading BackWeb for so long, Dell figures this is simply free money to be made. Still a crappy decision on their part though.

[123456]

I think this is due to HP/Compaq getting away with loading BackWeb for so long, Dell figures this is simply free money to be made. Still a crappy decision on their part though.
Back web.. I remember uninstalling it the day I got my hp.

[pop pop]

All this is is another very good reason to buid your own.

[Steve]

Just to kick a guy (company) while he's down, I'd like to share part of an email I recieved today. My lab partner from some classes I was taking last fall had her computer fail yesterday. She needs something quick and thought a cheap Dell might be the way to go.

"... I was going to just buy a cheap Dell (saw one advertised for $350 Pentium 4, 512 MB RAM, 80GB HD) so I called. You know what the woman asked me? Was I going to keep it on for more than 1 hr/day. I asked, why? She told me because there's no cooling fan included!!!! Can you believe that???? I told her that sounded quite unethical to build a computer with no cooling fan. So, I'm going to just swap out the motherboard for now...."

Now come on. I think I'll call this "Lessons on how to sink a company".

[pentachris]

That's absolutely ridiculous, Steve. :(

[jlreich]

WOW Steve! Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse........

I was working on a friends 5 year old Dell over the weekend. One of the tiniest cases I have ever seen. 7GB HDD (ata 66) mounted vertically on the front. PSU mounted on the side right in front of the CPU only about a 1/2" away. One 5" drive bay. No AGP. At this point I am surprised it had two ram slots. :p

[pop pop]

She told me because there's no cooling fan included!!!!

I believe the story. But there's something very wrong here and it's really sad. I used to own Dell stock. Has this company really sunk that far? Sad. So sad. :(

[Paleo Pete]

I've seen plenty Dells (and others, to be fair, like Gateway and eMachines) that had no CPU fans. They normally use the type of power supply that has a fan on bottom, blowing downward into the case, or sideways for desktop cases, and most of the time have a shroud to direct airflow to the CPU and heatsink. Yes, they do install a heatsink :rolleyes: The secondary power supply fan acts as a heatsink fan. I can't see it as being anywhere near as efficient as a standard CPU fan, but I've worked on several that were over 2 years old and still working fine. Of course, the BIOS has been stripped down to the bare minimum, so no temp monitor is available to see what the actual temps are, but I'd be willing to bet if you put them under a good load they tend toward the warm side...

I have one of the Gateways (Gateway 2000 actually) right here in the room in fact, bought it used for parts. P-II 266, onboard video and slots for one each-hard drive, floppy and CDROM. No way to monitor temps, but the slot 1 CPU still works fine and I bought it [well] used over 2 years ago. I used it as my shop machine for about 6 months until I got some parts together and built a Celeron 466. Paid $20 for the whole thing I think, with monitor, keyboard, mouse and printer. Only things that worked were the motherboard and CPU, the rest was fried...

So that method of cooling seems to work, at least the ones I've seen didn't seem to be having any heat related problems, but I wouldn't trust it for my own personal machine, I'd add a standard CPU fan. Couldn't add one to the slot 1 CPU, the way the heatsink is made it doesn't have room for it or a way to mount one. I'd have to completely swap out the entire heatsink to do it. I tested it for a couple of months, 24/7, before I decided to chance my business records on it though...and made regular backups even then...as in DAILY...

[hockey man]

Yes, my dell4700 has no fan on the cpu :mad: . Instead there's this plastic green funnel that connects the top on the cpu heat spreader to the rear fan. [Might I add the only case fan :eek: .]

[wngman]

Yeah, my dell 4600 has the same green plastic funnel. It just looks so cheap. I'm definitely building my own computer when this one craps out.

[Paleo Pete]

That's the shroud I'm talking about, most newer Dells have them, and I've seen quite a few others too. I don't trust them at all, it seems to me to be a very risky way to cut $5 (probably less) off the cost of building a computer. I'm glad I already build my own, if Dell sent me that garbage I would send it back immediately and demand a real CPU fan or my money back.

Oh, and that was a good point about the power supply fan being the only case fan, it's usually doing double duty as both case fan and CPU fan. I've also seen a few that have two, the power supply fan being the case fan and a secondary fan with a similar shroud acting as CPU fan. I can't remember who used that system, I want to say Gateway but I'm not sure, so don't quote me on that. I don't mind giving Gateway a bad reputation, but not for non-legitimate reasons...Want a legitimate reason? I tried to get a price on a laptop motherboard for a customer about 2 years ago. Gateway refused to talk to me, all the lady at Gateway would say was "You are not the original owner of the computer, I can't give you any information." She kept repeating that exact sentence even after I told her I was the technician trying to work on the computer and only wanted a PRICE so the customer could order a motherboard. The only one I could find online was over $500. The lady (customer) decided she would buy a new laptop. And she said definitely NOT a Gateway.

What really irks me is that they sell thousands of these things and 99% of the time soon as I give a customer a definite price on a quality computer they decide they will go buy the [insert brand here] that wally world is selling for half as much or possibly less. I can't get the parts for twice what the large companies pay for them so they are pricing me right out of a living, and it's almost impossible to get the average guy off the street to realize the quality is just not there and the pile of software included is mostly useless and will rarely if ever be used. Same for most other small shops, we can't survive building good quality machines, while the huge companies like [insert name here] are building and selling garbage and making billions at it...ripping customers off has become the industry standard.

OK I'll stop before this turns into a bona fide rant... :D When I get started about this issue I can get really steamed and carry on for a good while...

[pop pop]

So far, all I do is revive and upgrade people's computers on the side and make enough to pay for upgrades and some luxuries for my own system(s). I build, but only for myself. As I've gained a little bit of a good reputation, more and more I get asked if I can build someone a computer or help them with getting something decent. I get the pertinent info from them, tell them what it would cost for me to build and they cringe (that's with very little $$ for me). So then I tell them what it would cost for what I would recommend (prebuilt), and they balk and almost without fail say, "But, I can get one from [insert name here] for under $400!" All I can do is say that I wouldn't buy one myself, and I wouldn't recommend one. NO SALE.

So for the time being, I'll work my regular job to pay the bills, and revive and upgrade on the side and make some extra change--not a living.

[saphalline]

Yeah, I'm sure we all get that double-take at the prices for a quality computer. But my friend and I don't usually do those cheapies. If someone wants a cheap-a$$ system, we tell them to go to Dell. We deal more with gaming & extras. I mean really, when you build a quality machine, how much more does it cost to make it a gaming machine? About the cost of a vid card! :rolleyes: Now take a look at the OEM's, which use sub-par CPU's (like the 533 FSB Prescott w/o HT) at high speeds to impress people, and then cut back on the amount & speed of RAM (who the hell uses PC2100 anymore?) and hard drive quality (like old IDE drives with 2MB cache) and expandability (I've seen numerous OEM systems that just wouldn't take a faster CPU) and BIOS options and all those other things we love about OEM's. Then they bundle some crap software together (now including spyware!) and slap on a 1-year limited warranty that doesn't really cover anything.

Another area where OEM's cut back is in the chipset. Maybe I'm the only one who cares about this, but I recently saw a computer being sold in a large discount store that had an older (but high clock speed!) Pentium4 coupled with VIA's P4M266A chipset! :eek: WTF? Talk about an old surplus system! But it was a P4, so it didn't exactly have an old surplus price. I just shake my head at things like that, because I know someone will take it home and just use it for surfing the web or whatever for about 2 years, whereupon it will break and they'll buy another crappy surplus system. For crying out loud! I've got a couple PII 350 systems that I'm fixing up and giving away for just that purpose! They're more than 5 years old, and OEM at that, but they're still kicking along. And they have good chipsets (i440BX). The ways in which OEM systems today are lacking is just alarming. Spyware and really old chipsets. I'm not sure where it will end, or even if it will end, but I'll never buy myself another pre-built, that's for sure!

Yeah, inadequate cooling is going to catch up to these systems sooner or later. Back in the days of 500MHz, shrouds and a single fan were acceptable. But when a 3.6GHz P4 can pump out 155W of heat just by itself, ya gotta think of another way! I've heard of quite a few OEM systems using 3.4GHz or faster P4's and having them actually die out within the warranty period! *gasp* :eek: And this is all in the quest for maintaining a quiet system. I don't know what the problem is there. My friend has a Tsunami case, and that thing has a front 120mm intake fan, a rear 120mm exhaust fan, and a side-window-mounted 92mm intake fan. His case is nearly as quiet as a Dell, but probably pushes about 10 times the CFM's! And his dual-fan PSU isn't really adding any noise, either. So his OC'ed A64 Venice is doing quite nicely on the stock HSF. :D Not to mention the hard drives which get fresh air. That's not something you'll see on an OEM system. I've seen quite a few hard drives die in an OEM system from constantly overheating.

I guess mine turned into a rant, too! :p I'll stop there for now. But we should do this more often! :cool:

[hockey man]

Hey I'm all for it!

[Steve]

I, also have seen computers with a fan that has to do double duty. As saphalline pointed out, in the days of the 500mhz cpu you could get away with it. But a P4? I wonder if it really is an attempt to save three dollars on the price of a computer or if the idea is to overheat the processor so that it dies in a couple of years.

Another thought is using the incredibly low price to lure you in and then explain that the computer you get at that price isn't what you want. You can upgrade to a computer that has a fan, enough ram to run the OS, etc., etc. Pretty soon that $350 computer is a $900 computer. Oh, and don't forget the $100 shipping charge.

It seems that my experience building computers is a little outside the norm here. I find a nice stream of folks looking for a good computer. There are plenty who are looking for the cheapest computer possible. Plenty of folks want to be able to call India any time of the day or night and talk to someone about their computer. For them I recommend Best Buy.

But then there are the folks who have been down that route and now want a better computer. I built 23 computers last year. I've already built 12 this year and I expect that will grow to 25-30 by the time the year is over. Certainly not enough to make a living on but it's not an insignificant number for a small time operator like me.

The kids will be going back to school soon. I'm already pushing the back to school computer. I have one order so far but that will increase. Of course, Christmas is the biggest opportunity to build computers.

[hockey man]

Hey, could I get rid of that ugly green guy :mad: and install a real cpu fan? I believe I have what is called a heatsink on my cpu. Would I have to replace this as well? Can this be done :confused: ? I don't really like the chepo system dell uses :mad: . I like to cleap a clean mouth, but times like these take desperate mesures-- you ******* cheap system :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: .

[Variable]

Well I'm gonna disagree with some of this stuff. As far as spyware is concerned most users are already infested. If Dell adds some and tries to mitigate the more intrusive stuff for free I don't see the big deal. Dells work fine. Many here are security hypertensive( which is not a bad thing dont get me wrong) but the main stream user is clueless.

As far as leaving it on for more than an hour at a time... that sounds complete bs to me. I don't believe a rep said that.

If you do not overclock your PC and the airflow of the PC is engineered correctly to start with, you will be fine without a fan - if it doesn't come with a fan, stock. Dell does not sell computers so that that they get RMA'd for fried hardware. They don't use a heat sink because the PC works and is cheaper to manufacture. Plain and simple. Most people worry about heat even though the CPU is running well within the parameters set by the manufacturer. Dell does not make CPU's, the governance of what is acceptable is done by AMD and Intel.

Dells are great computers for the average user, judicial use of the add remove programs is not a bad idea for ANY new computer purchased from a name brand manufacturer. They have been coming preloaded with garbage since Windows 95.

Another thing about heat, If you are a gamer don't buy a off the shelf PC and expect top performance. People who buy cheap Dells get what they get. Most people who do not game will put almost NO load on a P4. They may spike 70-100 percent for tenths of a second. If you just do email, and word documents and play solitaire you do not need to spend a ton of money for a pc. A $400 unit will do you fine for 5-6 years easy. CPU's that don't game are not going to push out a lot of heat. If you want to game with a cheap Dell your goign to have to upgrade it. But cheap Dells are not meant to be gaming machines.

Dells work fine. If you buy a Ford Escort you dont expect Aston Martin style, performance and bells and whistles, you bought a Escort. You are getting what you pay for.

V

[pop pop]

If Dell adds some and tries to mitigate the more intrusive stuff for free I don't see the big deal.

So...it's OK if you're just going to infect me a little bit?

the main stream user is clueless

So, if they're clueless, it's OK to take advantage of them?

that sounds complete bs to me. I don't believe a rep said that.

So...Steve and/or his lab mate are liars?

CPU's that don't game are not going to push out a lot of heat.

Almost right... from THG:a current Pentium 4 can easily put out 30 to 40 watts of heat even when sitting idle - with the specification allowing a maximum of 115 watts

You are getting what you pay for.

That one, you got right.

[hockey man]

Dell makes pcs for the uniformed users :rolleyes: . They just scrape by :mad: ; that's why pc knowledgeable people hate dell. They only do the minimum :mad: .

[Paleo Pete]

Hey, could I get rid of that ugly green guy and install a real cpu fan?

Yes, you probably can, most motherboards have clips to attach a standard heatsink to, and power connectors for a case fan and a CPU fan.

I believe I have what is called a heatsink on my cpu. Would I have to replace this as well?

Probably. The heatsink used with the shroud type setup does not have the correct fins (usually) to attach a fan to. The fan is mounted on the heatsink by screws that fit into the fins. Check it, you might get lucky. If your computer is less than about 8 years old you have a heatsink or you have a paperweight. Anything from P-100 up requires a heatsink to keep from frying the CPU. Most 486 machines were better off with a heatsink, but a fan was not required in most cases. Anything over about 500 MHz and any of the AMD K6-2 series or Intel 166-233MMX chips will fry the CPU in 10-30 seconds without a heatsink and fan. The P-II CPUs required a heatsink and fan too but wouldn't be destroyed quite as fast. Check the Component ID Thread (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25502) to see what a heatsink looks like. Yours will be similar, without the fan and possibly silver aluminum instead of the black one pictured.

Variable - Most of your post has already been disputed, and rightfully so. Preinstalling known spyware IS something to be concerned about. If they get by with it, will they be installing CoolWebSearch next? It certainly is an issue worth serious concern. True, the mainstream user is for the most part computer illiterate, but does that make it right or ethical for any company to take advantage of their lack of knowledge in such a way that their new computer is sending personal information to parties they would NEVER send that information to if they knew about it? Think of it this way...If your local department store was giving out your address and phone number to advertising companies every time you used a credit card, and you knew nothing about it, would you like it? Would you then "see the big deal?" Getting what you pay for...what about getting more than you pay for but that "more" results in the same personal information being sent out. Is that what "getting what you pay for" is all about? We're talking known spyware here and Dell denies that it is spyware. No, that does not come under the heading of getting what you pay for.

What you pay for is a usable computer from an honest company. If it's the least expensive one you can find, don't expect it to be top quality, but just because it's inexpensive does not give the company the right to preinstall software of that nature. I figure if AdAware and Spybot find and remove it, I don't want it on ANYONE'S machine. Preinstalled or not, it's bad and should not be installed at all. And what if it happens to be able to automatically download and install more, or a future "update" adds the ability to do so? Plently spyware programs do exactly that right now.

Think this through and I don't think you will want Dell or anyone else installing anything that even smells like spyware on your computer. And you certainly won't condone it...

Wait...I have a better idea...go spend a couple of hours reading through the Applications and Security (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=34) section of the forums and come tell me how much spyware you want preinstalled on your computer.

[Steve]

I think we must have hit Variables brand loyalty button. ;)

Everyone's entitled to their point of view. Opinions usually come out of experience. If you have had several good results with a brand you tend to trust it. Same thing with people. Good experiences leads to trust. I have never known my lab partner to exaggerate or lie so if she says that's what the rep said then that's what the rep said.

I'm kind of surprised that Variable isn't concerned with spyware on his computer, (or maybe that's just other peoples computers) but once again, experience leads to an opinion. If the spyware on his computer hasn't caused problems, why be against it?

[Variable]

Steve, you pretty much hit the nail on the head on most of your comments, very astute. I deal with PC's and their users every day and Dell is VERY popular and for good reason. They work fine, do the job. For my own use I, like most here, build my own always have. I am not concerned with spyware because I don't get spyware. My security defaults and my personal machines are built to not allow it. Most users simply rely on another piece of software to clean their pc, they have no idea how things work.

Paleo Pete - I agree in principle with what you are saying about not putting spyware on a machine before they sell it to you. BUT, what I have learned is, what I consider spyware some consider useful - like weatherbug and those terrible search bars, for instance. I have had clients get mad if I remove too much of their spyware! I work with end users everyday, I talk to them everyday just like many of you. So I have a broader level of acceptance for mainstream users. What I do personally is held to a totally different standard then what the average person does. I am not average; neither are most of you reading this. We as IT professionals/enthusiasts can have rational discussions about things related to IT but the average user does not care about what we are talking about. Ignorance is bliss I guess. This is my opinion of course, but it is based on several years of doing the job full time.

There are different levels of spyware, some are malicious and some are not. If you are trying to keep information hidden on the information superhighway I think you should unplug your machine. The issue is more complex than most would have it. It will get more so. The line between spyware and normal useful software will blur even more. Knowledge is power. The people with power will always seek to use their knowledge for the betterment of themselves. As long as people give away knowledge for free there will be someone there to use it for their own gain. The real argument is as old as time, how do you educate the public about something that you think is important but that they don't seem to care about. Those of you troubleshooting spyware for infested PC's are doing yeoman’s work. It's done free though... In my experience when users have to pay for fixes they pay more attention to fixing the issues. The key to educating users is through their wallets IMHO

Ok, I need to get back to work...

[pop pop]

I wasn't going to respond at all, but I decided I'll make one or two observations and then totally exit this thread that I started because my blood pressure medication is working overtime. :mad: .

Most users simply rely on another piece of software to clean their pc, they have no idea how things work.

As an IT professional, you should know it's ALL about the user. They're the reason you have a job in that field. The "average" user doesn't feel they should have to know the fine details about how things work, and rightly so. The average user is not a geek, dweeb, nerd, IT pro, engineer, or PC professional. They're moms, pops, students, ordinary employees and people just trying to work, learn or have a little fun. They shouldn't have to be cleaning off crap that they didn't knowingly put on their computer.

the average user does not care about what we are talking about.

Take a look sometime at the statistic for this board. No wait, here they are: Threads: 38,172, Posts: 239,741, Members: 18,157. Somebody cares about what's being discussed here and the information that's being provided and they're not all seasoned IT professionals or even "enthusasts". Many are average users who are curious, confused, frustrated, and in some cases angry.

The key to educating users is through their wallets IMHO

How very philanthropic of you. I and a few thousand others are very glad that people like Budfred, David, and my capitalist friend Classic don't feel the same way you do.

Yeah, my buttons were pushed. So I'll exit now before I get a PM from one of the mods. Have a great day. :D

[hockey man]

Ii must admitt, there is a place for dell- those who need a cheap pc, and will through it away when there done. Simple supply and demand economics. If theres a demand, there will be a supply.

O, what does IHMO mean?

[pop pop]

IHMO=in my humble opinion.

[saphalline]

Haha! That's IMHO, guys, not IHMO! :D

Are the typos being contagious? ;)

[hockey man]

thats too funny, spelling was never my strong suit though. . .

[pop pop]

Schmelling woas neber mine stong smoot neder. :D

Man, I needed a good laugh. :p