Dan Kaminski article re post-MS SP2 security

[PrntRhd]

I just ran across this decent, IMHO, article explaining some of the Windows security issues out there:
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/342

[pop pop]

Very interesting article, though a bit of a difficult read (mainly because of the interview format). One of the things that was said that I found interesting kind of applies to statements made in another thread around here. To paraphrase Kaminsky's discussion point: "Why should I care about that?" He says that attitude "is quite nearly a reflex rebuttal for corporate" ... "types". Kind of like this from the other thread: "the way to educate users is through their wallet".

[Paleo Pete]

Well, unfortunately, that happens to be true, although that isn't a very good way to put it. I've tried to get people to realize for a long time that computers don't do anything (usually) the user doesn't tell them to do and that the Internet is not safe without some caution and virus protection. Fact is, most people don't pay attention and don't want to know about it until they have to pay to have it fixed...the way a friend put it a few years ago, "people don't learn unless they have to pay for it."

He was talking about learning to work on computers, but it applies to learning in general. I get calls from people all the time wanting to know how to install a driver or set up and internet connection, tell them a half dozen times and it just evaporates into thin air...it's too easy to pick up the phone and dial a number, let ME study for several years and try to remember it. Charge them a couple of hundred dollars for a class on it, they remember it for good. Sorry, I don't mean to sound cold or callous, but it's unfortunately a fact. I told one person at least 8 times how to boot into Safe Mode and how to run scanreg to fix the registry. Still called me every time till I moved out of town. And wouldn't stop tinkering and trashing Windows.

A close look at our country's educational system will support that. Last I heard, over 20% of high school graduates were for all practical purposes still illiterate. Few can spell, even fewer can do basic mathematics, and don't even think about getting a correct answer if you ask them who Louis Pasteur was. That's why spell checkers and calculators exist.

My spell checker is between my ears. I've used it all my life and it works great. I run across a word I'm not familiar with now and then, or can't remember, but the only time you see a spelling mistake in my posts is when I fail to spot a typo. I do always proofread. I don't use XP, don't like it, and refuse to install it on my computer, but I've earned to use it and fix it. Sometimes I have trouble remembering the location to get to the settings, when posting on the forums in front of a Linux machine and not XP but otherwise, most of my answers on the forums come from memory, from working on customers' XP machines for several years, except for the times I have to look up specific error messages or with some of the malware. I look through a HJT log and I have to look up filenames I don't recognize to find out what they are, have to look up error messages or hardware info. Otherwise I rarely have to look anything up, I've learned XP by fixing it. And I don't miss often...But I'm one of the exceptions, learning has always been one of my favorite pastimes, right after playing guitar...My favorite books as a kid were encyclopedias and the dictionary. But I do use a calculator, math and history were my worst subjects...I couldn't tell you when the War of 1812 was if I had to...lol

I'm not too crazy about the way the quote above was put across, (referring to the original, not pop pop's comment) but it's true. People generally don't learn unless they have to pay for it. The reason our educational system is so ineffective is more than that though, several factors combine to add up to a poor system. Teachers, same as police officers, are so underpaid they don't have any incentive to approach their jobs with an attitude of getting results, they just want to get home with a paycheck on Friday. They also have almost no control when faced with students who are troublemakers, anything they do in the way of discipline or punishment has resulted in lawsuits and subsequently being banned by the school boards. The students are faced with boring classes day after day, teachers who don't seem to care, (can't say I really blame them either) and quite often parents who both work and don't have time for them. It adds up to a bad situation. Lack of discipline has resulted in several shootings in schools, teachers being assaulted, other students being assaulted, gangs terrorizing students and in most cases having a lot more control over the students than teachers do and that's far from the end of it.

Kids don't see school as an opportunity to learn, it's something they have to do because they can't get out of it. Schools also don't prepare students for the kind of world they have to face when they get out and try to get jobs, 99% of them have no idea how to get a job or what kind of job they want even when they graduate, if they graduate. I've always thought that should be included in shools' curriculum, (I think that's spelled wrong) and I don't remember any of my high school teachers saying anything about what to expect when we hit the streets looking for work. I didn't know what a resume was until I guess about 10 years ago, much less how to put one together, had no idea how to handle a job interview, what to say and what not to say, how to dress appropriately for the particular position, none of that was ever even mentioned in school. And it should be a requirement...

I can't remember the details, I wish I could - specific percentages and such - but there have been several spots about this subject on some of the TV shows like 60 Minutes and 20/20. The problems with our educational system have been building for over 20 years and I don't think it's getting any better. But with an atmosphere not conducive to learning, kids leave school barely able to read and write and with little or no desire or incentive to learn anything more. That carries over into almost everything. I've seen a lot of people who learn just enough to keep their jobs and have no interest in digging any deeper into it.

OK I'm ranting again, I better stop and get off my soapbox...I seem to be doing a lot of that lately, maybe I need a vacation...

curriculuum? curricuulum?? I'll have to look that one up, haven't tried to spell it in a bunch o' years...seems it's supposed to have 2 u's though...supercalifragilisticexpialidocious...I can get that one though :D and of course my old favorite, once the longest word in Webster's Dictionary...antidisestablismentarianism. No I didn't look it up or use a spelling checker...I found it in my dictionary when I was about 12 and still remember it.

[pop pop]

Wow. That was ... a whole lot of stuff. :)

The current issues with education are very interesting to me. I've got other feelings about where the problems lie and when they began. In my opinion, it's not accurate to blame teachers. And I don't think teacher salaries are a demotivating factor. Teachers' salaries, at least here in the metroplitan northeast, are actually quite good. Are they what they should or could be? Maybe not, but the median teacher's salary around here is higher than that of law enforcement, firefighting, or paid EMT--at least last time I saw.

The issue in the US has at its roots a cultural shift as the cause. Americans used to be hungry (figuratively speaking) and aggressive. Being well educated was a lofty goal, but one to which most aspired. Even without formal education, learning was its own reward and it was enriching and satisfying.

Today, its different here. The place I work brings the cultural shift that I'm talking about home to me every day. I sat in a meeting with a small group of engineers Thursday. I was the only systems engineer, the rest were software development engineers. Out of the eight people in the room, two were caucasian and American born. The other six were all Indian, first generation in the US. All six of those graduated from prestigious American universities after moving here. In conversations, they've described for me the differences they see in the value and emphasis place on education in their culture compared to what they see here...now. Growing up they are taught that education is the ultimate goal, it's the way out for the masses. Signing a record deal is not, aspiring to be a mega-millionaire athelete is not, being a movie star is not, being a gangsta' is not. The ordinary person is just not going to record a song that goes Platinum, win an Open, or get an Academy Award.

Somewhere along the way, America came off the tracks. Parenting is where I place the responsibility. Everybody here started looking for the easy way, the fast way, and parents instilled those new (distorted) values in their children. It hasn't happened quickly, it's been a generational change.

One of the other cultural differences is responsibility. It used to be that the opportunities were out there for the taking and you just had to work for them--you were responsible for making the decision and doing the work. The opportunities are still out there, but something's different. What I see today is people claiming victimization if they don't get what they think they deserve, whether they've earned it or not. "I didn't get the education because society deprived me of it". Bull. I looked around that room and saw people who have come from very little--scary little-- and are now software engineers--damned good ones-- in a global corporation. They took responsibility for themselves. They worked hard and achieved. They didn't blame society or anyone. That kind of attitude, that kind of ethic, is what we once had here, and what is now sadly missing.

[jlreich]

My wife used to be a substitute teacher for the city schools in my area. She just quit as a professor at a small business college in the inner city, in part because she is going to start on her masters this fall, also in part because she can't take the inner city "ghetto" crap anymore. So I can make some observations with first hand knowledge from my wife.

First I must agree with Pete, I have thought for many years that teachers should be the highest paid profession in the world. After all, who teaches our presidents, our police officers, our scientists and so on?

I also agree with pop pop. Most teachers are there because they like and want to teach. At least at first. But after dealing with political correctness, parents that don't care, administration that only cares about keeping the suspension/drop out numbers down, first graders that talk to you in a way that would make sailors blush, a real threat of violence, drugs, lock downs while drug dogs search the schools, parents that if they do show up to pick their child up after being thrown out of class cuss the teacher out and threaten violence because they had to leave the crack house to pick up their child. All this and more with relatively low pay. This does not make for an environment conducive to learning. Even the children that have good parents and want to learn have a very difficult time doing so in this awful environment.

My children are in a private school and always have been with the exception of one year for my youngest daughter during a transition period for the family. I wouldn't have it any other way. Even if I had to get a second mortgage on the house, public school would not be an option. The one year my youngest spent in public school was absolutely horrible. She liked her teacher, but her teacher would very often be absent because she was so stressed out dealing with the BS. One day my wife happened to get the call to sub in our daughters first grade class. Well it was so bad she called me about an hour after class started to come and pick up our daughter from class. Now you know it must have been bad for that to happen. I know when subs teach, things tend to get a little rowdy, but this was way beyond spitballs and passing notes. And the principle refused to send any student home.

Well two things happened. My wife endured till about noon, then left. Which subs have the right to leave any job they take at any time they want to. Then my daughter missed any day her teacher was not there. It got to the point her teacher would tell us she was not coming in the next day, and we would keep our daughter home that day. And I will tell you, she missed over half of the days remaining in the school year.

About two years ago my wife was tutoring a twelve year old boy in my daughters class. He came to the school unable to read, tell time, or count the change in his pocket. And even though his mother was a nurse, he looked like he hasn't eaten for weeks. He looked as though he was about four years younger than he was. He wouldn't eat breakfast because his mom wouldn't allow him to unplug the computer so he could plug in the microwave to make something, then his mom would send him to school with $0.25 to $1.25 for lunch. Private schools don't have free lunches. We would pack extra in my daughters lunch so she could give him something to eat. And then the mother was angry because the school told her they could do nothing, and the boy needed specialized help.

I am sorry, but how does you child get to be 12 without you knowing he/she can't read, count or tell time?? :confused:

As for the college my wife just quit. They did testing on all the students. On average, on average, they are at a 4th grade level. How are you supposed to teach college level skills to a student with a 4th grade education?? And yes, they are giving these students degrees! My wife would fail students, and the admin would change the grades to allow them to pass. And yes my wife did report them to the state accreditation board.

I am sorry for such a long rant, but you guys touched on a very sore subject for me. :(

[Paleo Pete]

it's not accurate to blame teachers.

I think you misinterpreted my rant. I don't blame teachers, I blame the system itself, the attitudes seen in a lot of teachers are the result of the conditions they have to face every day. The same conditions listed in the second post. The teachers are a part of that system, but not the part that's causing most of the problems. And as noted above, most or all of them start out teaching because they want to help kids learn, which is one of the most noble goals I can think of...it's onlly later that their attitude deteriorates, when they've seen too much of the kind of things jlreich pointed out.

You are correct in saying this has taken some time, the changes in educational quality, attitudes etc have taken most of my life, none of this happened overnight. I also think you made a good point about an education formerly being a high goal to have acheived, I saw it that way until I got absolutely sick of school, then continued to educate myself. I have a very high IQ and probably the equivalent of at least a master's degree overall, but have not specialized in any one subject, I've always grabbed every book I could find on whatever happened to interest me. That ranges from various aspects of science, astronomy and space exploration to agriculture, psychology, arts, ancient history (we're talking stone age stuff), paranormal phenomena, and other more specific topics such as archaeology and paleontology, mycology, computers of course, and now I'm trying to learn a bit about tube amplifiers while electronics has always been the toughest subject I've tried to tackle, I barely understand any of it at all...

The public school system had almost nothing to do with my actual education, I kept myself a couple of years ahead of the class and usually stared out the window all day, dragging my attention back to class only long enough to answer questions when my name was called. My 7th grade English teacher practically begged me to go to the state spelling bee, telling me I was a dead ringer for one of the top 3 spots. I refused, I wanted nothing to do with it. Other teachers tried to get me into other various clubs and activities...chess club, 4H, debate, chorus, several others. I did finally join the chess club my senior year of high school, but because I enjoyed playing a friend who was good. I finally beat him once, but because he wasn't up to his normal... Same thing usually though, I wanted nothing to do with any of it, I was sick of being there. I learned far more sitting at home with a stack of books. I usually checked out 4-6 at a time from the library, twice a week and sometimes 3 times.

So I ended up with an education anyway, but not a formal one with a piece of paper to hang on the wall. I don't think I would have gotten anywhere near the scope of knowledge I now have if I had tried to go to college, which was just about an impossibility, my father refused to put one cent into college for me and I had no money at all to even think about going. I didn't know about grants and such at that time...and as I said earlier, the school system didn't teach us a thing about actually going out and finding a job...

jlreich made some excellent observations, being so close to the system it's hard not to see the dismal shape it's in. Several of my customers are teachers from a school a few blocks away where one of my cousins also teaches, and the office secretary has told me a bit about how things are going now than most people are ever aware of. In general the teachers make under $30,000 a year, which is not that good at all, but fortunately in this location they don't have the problems that plague a lot of inner city schools in metropolitan areas. This is a smaller country town, it's not quite as bad but we do have our share of trouble, including indignant parents who lash out at the teachers when their own children are the ones that should be wearing the uncomfortable side of a belt.

Boy did this one get way off topic in a hurry...but it looks like it might get really interesting before it dies down. Good comments guys, some of it I might not completely agree with but both made some excellent points.

[tommy]

Some EXCELLENT responses but I think PopPop hit the nail on the head when he said:
Somewhere along the way, America came off the tracks. Parenting is where I place the responsibility. Everybody here started looking for the easy way, the fast way, and parents instilled those new (distorted) values in their children. It hasn't happened quickly, it's been a generational change.

I think a large part of the problem is the lack of mothers who stay at home and properly instill good habits (learning, living, etc.) and nurture their children rather than getting a job and sending the kids off to a day school starting at age three. IMHO, The two worker family is not necessary in most cases. The thrill of having SAVED over a period of time for a sofa, a car, a TV set, etc. is very rewarding once the purchase can be accomplished. Unfortunately, the "got to have it now" syndrome is one cause of the two wage earner family because that is the only way they can pay off their excessive credit card debt which is about the most expensive way to purchase anything (such people don't pay off the credit card each month).

And a major reason for all of that is because their parents wanted (needed?) to hand everything to their offspring on a silver platter because the only amount of time they could allocate to their children was so called "quality time" which they felt could be turned on and off like a light bulb rather than spontaneous. This leaves the kids with the feeling that the world owes them a living and everything else their little hearts desire.

And now I will step off of my soap box.

[Paleo Pete]

Good point, I didn't give parenting the share of blame it deserves, but I don't completey agree with you. Parenting AND the system are both equally responsible.

Let's face it, the public school system stinks, a major overhaul has been needed for years and the older generation still in charge of running it have fought it all the way. As with anything else, I think once you hit 50-55 you should NOT be in charge any more, after that you are far too resistant to change, which is why our school system is not being upgraded, our government is the exact same "by the rich and for the rich" crowd that's been running the country for at least 75 years, and nobody can get a foot in the door that's not of the older generation because they keep it that way. Until that changes, things will not get better, the octogenarians running the show refuse to even consider changes, for better or worse.

Don't blame only parents though, that's not fair even though parents are doing a deplorable job in general and your observations are accurate for the majority of them. Remember the old saying "It takes two to tango"...that's true in this case, the parents are responsible for raising and education of kids to a degree at home, the schools take over at school. BOTH must share the responsibility if it doesn't work, and neither wants to accept their part of the blame. I'll have to ask around at the school where I know some teachers, I'm willing to bet very few parents show up at school board meetings to participate. Those are open meetings usually and parents have always been encouraged to go. To be completely fair, mine didn't.

[jlreich]

Don't blame only parents though, that's not fair even though parents are doing a deplorable job in general and your observations are accurate for the majority of them. Remember the old saying "It takes two to tango"...that's true in this case, the parents are responsible for raising and education of kids to a degree at home, the schools take over at school. BOTH must share the responsibility if it doesn't work, and neither wants to accept their part of the blame. I'll have to ask around at the school where I know some teachers, I'm willing to bet very few parents show up at school board meetings to participate. Those are open meetings usually and parents have always been encouraged to go. To be completely fair, mine didn't.
It isn't just the parents, or just the school system. It's without a doubt both. And the only time my parents were involved in my schooling was when I was in trouble. And I must admit it was far to often in my case. :p

In my area they are always crying for more money to fix the problems. Money is not the problem with most if not all school systems. A few years ago I looked at the report of the school system in my state. In the city I live, at the time it was the second worst school system in the state, scoring a 4 out 27 in academic ratings. :eek: Trust me it hasn't gotten any better in the last few years. Point is, at the same time they are receiving the most money per student in the entire state by a good margin. All the while a suburb school system that receives more than $1000 less per year per student received a rating of 26 out of 27. The best public school system in the state. Money is not the issue. The only way I would ever vote in favor of a school levy is if I knew the money would go 100% to the teachers salary. With what they deal with between the students, administration, and the parents they would deserve every penny. And they do fairly well in my city. A teacher with a bachelors degree makes $30,000 - $45,000. And one with a masters degree makes $45,000 - $70,000.

Now I know some of you are thinking that's nothing to complain about. Well the pay hasn't been enough to keep good teachers in the public system. Over half of the teachers at my kids private school have left the public school system to make less than $25,000 a year at the private school. And a couple of them do have their masters degree. They said it was just to much to deal with in the public school system and it wasn't worth the money.

When my wife subbed for the school system, the automatic phone system would literally call offering jobs up to 50 times a morning. :eek: NO exaggeration. It wouldn't quit till she either accepted a job, or 10:00 rolled around. Further more, there are classrooms without a permanent teacher. They offer subs "permanent substitute" positions to fill these vacancys. Even though some of the subs have a BA or BS, many of them only have an Associates degree, and most lack the required classes in child development to become a full teacher. Meaning that there are several substandard teachers (no pun intended) filling full time positions. Not a good thing. Although I guess it is better than having several classes without any teacher at all. :rolleyes:

There are so many things wrong with the school system/parenting this thread could go on for months. It seems todays parents and kids think that education is a right. Well it isn't, it is a privilege. I think they should kick out disruptive students, and students of parents that wont take responsibility. That way at least the kids that are there to learn can get a quality education. But they wont do that. They say everyone deserves an education. Well no they don't. It is a privilege there for anyone wanting it. If you don't want it, then get out of the way of those that do.

(steps off soapbox....)

[Dangerous]

Wow, intersting topic and I agree with many of the points. It's a very similar situation over here in England. Many parents just don't care enough, the system is not right and needs changing, teachers can't stand up to students for fear of being sued or kicked out of their jobs. It's totally insane.

When I was at school (not that long ago, I'm 26 now) I remember messing about and being sent to the headmaster's (principal) office, he went upstairs and came back with a long piece of bamboo cane, and wandered about smacking it into his hand - he told me that I was to behave from now on or I'd get the cane. I knew he wasn't allowed to do that, but damn was I scared. Maybe the fact that I was about 8 and 3 ft small and he was about 7 ft tall (literally) had something to do with it?

I think once you hit 50-55 you should NOT be in charge any more, after that you are far too resistant to change
Totally agree with you Pete, you say the government (and ours is in a very similar state) are the same as this, run to keep the rich rich. It's odd, how we both live in democracies where we ELECT our own leaders, yet it seems to make NO DIFFERENCE to our situations. I just vote for the best of a bad bunch. Cynical I know, but probably truth! If only there were some decent people to vote for!!

Dave

[Steve]

:eek: Good grief!! Wasn't this thread about Windows security?!?

Well, to hell with Windows security. This has developed into a much more interesting thread.

Teachers and the educational system. Subjects near and dear to my heart. The educational system is in general a state run enterprise, meaning that it's going to have differences from place to place. From the sounds of it, Pete and jlreich live in some questionable areas.

I've raised a daughter who did quite well in school. And now she is half way through college and still doing well. It's in general the same type of education I got years ago. Industry wanted a pool of willing workers with a general education. One that trained them how to learn so that they could learn the manufacturing skills this country needed in the 1920's-1970's.

But lets get one thing straight. Teachers are not responsible for educating the next generation. I am. And you are too, if you have kids. I hire certain people (teachers) for a certain purpose and that's all. If they get the job done, great. The problem comes when a union takes over and the teachers who don't get the job done are allowed to leach off the taxpayers until they are dead. If you think that the schools are responsible to teach your kids certain things well think again. It's your job. Stop blaming others.

My first (and last) wife was a teacher. We had teacher friends and neighbors. You don't have to sit around with to many teachers on one or more of their FOURTEEN WEEKS OF VACATION to get the point. It's interesting what teachers talk about after they have a few drinks in them and they have forgotten that a civilian is around. It's a racket and they know it. The average income in New Hampshire is thirty-two grand. That's for people who work fifty, forty hour weeks each year. Sometimes with benefits sometimes not. The average pay for teachers is forty grand with benefits. That's fourteen weeks of vacation, health insurance, fifteen days of sick leave and personal days on top of that. And due to the union, once they are tenured, it's impossible to get rid of the bad ones.

The general purpose of the educational system is still the same. We need a generally educated work force. The topics have changed from the manufacturing days put the purpose is the same. What we need is to trash can the whole public education system to get rid of the people who are just there to suck me and you, the tax payers, dry. I'm talking about the NEA. They are the biggest waste of time and money I have ever seen. No amount of money is ever enough. No teacher should ever be held accountable. Teachers are special people. They deserve even more time off. God help them if I was ever made king....

Oooops..heh heh...kind of got on a rant there myself.... ;)

Carry on.

:)

[jlreich]

From the sounds of it, Pete and jlreich live in some questionable areas.
Yes. But no more questionable than any other mid sized city in the USA. I lived in Chicago when I was 16-17. Now let me tell yeah, that was wild... I remember walking through a gang fight on my way to catch a bus going to work. Whew... :eek:

But lets get one thing straight. Teachers are not responsible for educating the next generation. I am. And you are too, if you have kids. I hire certain people (teachers) for a certain purpose and that's all. If they get the job done, great. The problem comes when a union takes over and the teachers who don't get the job done are allowed to leach off the taxpayers until they are dead. If you think that the schools are responsible to teach your kids certain things well think again. It's your job. Stop blaming others.
I couldn't agree more. School is not a babysitter so you can go out and do what ever it is that you want to do other than be a parent. And I think it realy sucks that I have to pay taxes for a school system when I struggle to pay tuition for my children to go to a private school because the public school system is horrible.

[tommy]

Steve said:
What we need is to trash can the whole public education system to get rid of the people who are just there to suck me and you, the tax payers, dry. I'm talking about the NEA. They are the biggest waste of time and money I have ever seen. No amount of money is ever enough. No teacher should ever be held accountable. Teachers are special people. They deserve even more time off.

To which I say, AMEN

[pop pop]

And I think it realy sucks that I have to pay taxes for a school system when I struggle to pay tuition for my children to go to a private school because the public school system is horrible.

I was going to add something along these lines the other day, but didn't have time.

I totally agree with that statement and I ask you, how could anyone be against school vouchers (tax breaks) just for that purpose and reason?

[jlreich]

I am whole heartedly in favor of vouchers. It would put the public school system in competition with the private schools. It would also allow more of a budget for private schools, allowing them to pay their teachers a much better salary. :)

[Paleo Pete]

School vouchers...Ok now you're going to make me go look things up....right...ok...

If that's what I think it is from reading that post, I would be in favor of it too. If a person decides to send his/her children to private schools, why should that person have to ALSO pay for public schools? Definitely a tax break would be in order.