64 Bit System

[Paleo Pete]

Guess I should have posted this earlier this weekend, but thought I'd look around some first...my bad...

I just built a 64 bit AMD system for a customer, my first try at 64 bit, (socket 939) SATA drive and PCIX video. We had fun building it, went nicely after I figured out how to get a SATA driver on floppy. Asus should have put it on a floppy and put it in the box, what's a home user supposed to do if there is no computer available to make a floppy on??? Or if he doesn't know the floppy creator program is on the CD?...I didn't...We worried about it for an hour and couldn't loacate it on the Asus site, I happened to wonder if it might be on the CD, popped it into another machine and did some browsing. They also didn't put a link to the floppy creator on the main autorun page.

Anyway, that's just observations, here's the basic system and it's running fine, no hardware issues, just software ones. Even found a 64 bit driver for the Smart Link PCI modem. (Which has Linux drivers on the CD for it too, by the way, I was impressed, and that's why this vendor carries that modem. Drivers for everything)

Asus A8N-E motherboard
AMD 3000 64 bit CPU
1GB Kingston DDR, set up dual channel - pair of 512's.
WD 80 GB SATA drive
ATi Sapphire 128MB video PCIX
Winderz XP 64 bit

I know that's not the latest and greatest, customer wanted new and fast, but no top of the line, so it wasn't quite as expensive as a machine with everything just released last week...runs good, sitting here idling now with a temp probe taped to the heatsink that reads 90 F, hasn't shown higher than 96 F since yesterday morning. Not bad at all. BIOS temp after idling 10 minutes or so was 35C, not bad at all either. He's also not a gamer so actually the video card is waaay more than he'll ever really use...

Now on to the problem...SOFTWARE...

I've been looking around online since Friday night and don't see 64 bit versions of anything...Zone Alarm, AVG, AdAware, Firefox, Thunderbird, forgot to check Spybot but will be looking soon as I post this. Norton Internet Security is on the motherboard CD but since Norton started their "subscription" ripoff, I've avoided it and haven't been too impressed with their software anyway. Might install it if I have to, but I'd rather have AVG and Zone Alarm. Why are the free security apps better by far than the paid ones in general? Corporate greed astounds me...

Went ahead and put Firefox 1.0.5 on it and plan to redo that with 1.0.6 this evening, haven't downloaded the newer one yet. 1.0.5 worked fine to download a couple of drivers right after XP was installed. That and drivers is all that's installed so far, and Adobe Acrobat from motherboard CD too. CD installation screen where you pick what drivers or utilities to install is labeled 64 bit, so everything on it should work fine.


I guess I'll have to run with 32 bit versions of a few security apps that MUST be on this machine, I decided soon as it was built I didn't want to use IE even to download Firefox, so I popped in my USB drive and installed Firefox, set it as default and it works fine. Are there 64 bit versions out there that I haven't found of things like Adaware, AVG, Zone Alarm etc? Or will the 32 bit versions work well? I have been all over the websites for all the apps listed in the paragraph above, no mention of 64 bit anywhere except at AVG where it was mentioned that 64 bit wasn't available yet and they weren't sure if the free version would support it or not. Here's the quote from their support forms:

+++++++++++++++++++
all the programs that you mentioned are applications without system drivers - they run in "32-bit compatibility mode". AVG contains system drivers (that can'be launched in this mode) - the Resident Shield. Moreover, AVG needs access to all directories in the system but the compatibility mode does not allow applications to do so directly. Therefore, it's necessary to modify AVG to support Windows 64-bit. We're working on it but so far it has not been decided whether this support will be available in the AVG Free Edition.
+++++++++++++++++++

This was dated April 2005, I found nothing newer than that.

I'm supposed to deliver this thing tomorrow evening, but it won't be a problem if I have to go back a couple of times to get things sorted out, this is a customer who has already bought one machine and had me doing repair work at his business, and I don't mind going an extra mile to get things right and keep this guy happy. And he's definitely done me right so far, I don't mind a 5 mile drive and an hour of tinkering...

Some feedback would help a lot, I'll be doing some more looking too.

[Budfred]

Last I heard, there were few to none when it came to 64 bit applications... I think there is a 64 bit version of Win2003 Server software and not much else... If the next Windows comes in 64 bit (and I believe it is supposed to), it will probably result in a bunch of 64 bit apps being released... Right now the main advantages to 64 bit are speed and being prepared for future apps....

[Whyzman]

This from AMD: http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_8796_11869,00.html?redir=CPOP64

This from MS...note the ZoneAlarm info at the bottom:
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=884130

[pop pop]

My heart goes out to you, Pete. I have a "free" copy of XP64 that I got directly from MS and I didn't bother installing it for this reason. I was concerned not only with 64-bits apps but also drivers, of course.

I guess is MS and the developers got into a chicken or the the egg kind of situation here, but it's not like they have been there before. It seems to me that the migration from 16 to 32 bit went more smoothly.

For security apps, several months ago, I read articles about what's been tested already, what works and what doesn't. I just don't remember where I read it all now--maybe PCWorld or THG or eWeek. Anyway, I recall that out of the lists there was only one firewall that "worked" (functional but with minor bugs). I'm not sure, it might have been Kerio. There was also only one AV that worked at the time and it wasn't one of the big ones.

I'll be watching to see how this goes. Good luck

[pop pop]

Pete, you likely have seen this. It's a compatibility guide for XP 64. It includes H/W and S/W. Looks pretty comprehensive. Maybe--hopefully--it will be of some use to you. It was last updated July 18th.

http://www.3dvelocity.com/articles/win64compatibility/win64softlist.htm

[Paleo Pete]

Good info guys, thanks. I haven't looked at pop pop's link yet, I'm still checking otu the others but will get there...I saw this about Zone Alarm on the M$ page:

+++++++++++++++++++
When you try to remove ZoneAlarm, you receive a Stop error message or your computer restarts before the uninstall program finishes.
+++++++++++++++++++

When you try to REMOVE Zone Alarm...nothing about problems with it working or installing, that's version 5.0.590 on 32 and 64 bit hardware...I think I already have that version on either my USB drive or in a download folder, I'll have to check, but from the info given there it doesn't say it won't work at all, just that uninstalling it causes trouble. I can live with that, if it will work...all the antivirus programs listed look like bad news, nothing there about AVG though, but I already know it's not a good idea from their own website.

Kapersky sounds like it might be worth looking into, it says their website has updates that may fix it, and Kapersky has a good reputation, at least for Linux. The Windows version should be good too, seems like I heard favorable comments about it in the past year or so.

OK now I have to dig through the 14 or so tabs I have open and see what else I can find...and look at the link pop pop posted...I see another pot of coffee in my future... :eek: :D

[pop pop]

For free antivirus, AVAST! is listed as working. AVG is listed as DOA. For firewalls, ZoneAlarm and Sygate are listed as not working, Kerio is not listed at all, leaving Tiny Firewall Pro as the only one working that I can find (is that a pay app?).

Thank God Kazaa, Limewire, Shareaza, and eMule are still working! :eek:

[Paleo Pete]

Hehe...I noticed Kazaa was listed...I wonder who was dumb enough to risk a high end 64 bit system to test that one..I wouldn't even think about it. Just looked at your link, saw the ones you mentioned and am looking through the Avast page, think I might go with that one, and might even already have a version around here that will work. I've already used it on at least one or two systems before, so I know it works with no serious problems, and it has a good reputation with the folks around the forums too. That always counts...Whyzman's link says Norton Firewall and antivirus both don't work, or at least both are unchecked in the list. But Norton Internet Security is on the motherboard CD, which is supposed to be 64 bit ready stuff...I'm not going to try it, the only one listed on the page pop pop posted is Norton antivirus 64 and I don't have that.

Drivers...didn't give me any problem so far, tried the one on the Smart Link modem CD and it gave me a no go so I checked their website and they had a 64 bit driver, installed it without any trouble and modem query says it works, but hasn't been tested yet. I'll do that tomorrow. XP picked up the ATi video card and it works fine, 32 bit true color available and twice the screen size the monitor is capable of. 2048x 1536 I think and the monitor will only handle 1280x1024. Since this guy is not into gaming I think I'll stay with native drivers, it works fine so why fix it? The sound drivers on the motherboard CD didn't install, although it was specifically for that motherboard and 64 bit, but I may have made a mistake. Downloaded them anyway and the downloaded drivers installed perfect. The other drivers, chipset and such, went fine, now I have to see what he has for a printer and try to get 64 bit drivers for it. I know he has a couple, and at least one is an all-in-one job, I hate those...I also noticed on the list you posted the most applications that don't work are the ones produced by good ol' M$...I didn't add it all up but it looks like more of their software won't work than any other company...gotta love it... :D

Overall it's going pretty well so far, no serious problems, and looks like a good variety of software will work, at least until 64 bit versions are developed. I'd like to see this system with Linux on it to see how it runs, XP seems to run pretty well, but it has a gig of RAM to play with...I might pop in my Knoppix CD and try it out, it's 32 bit but might run, I doubt it though...

If you decide to go ahead and check out your 64 bit XP, I'd say go for it. This one hasn't given me any problems so far, once I got the SATA driver issue figured out it installed XP in under 30 minutes, and it's fast...You've seen the software list, so if nothing else a lot of 32 bit software will still work, but you'll have to be careful about security apps. That is my main concern right now, I didn't even think about it until I had to go looking for drivers then suddenly was afraid I'd jumped into a mess...fortunately it looks like it won't be as bad as I suspected. I'm wondering whether I should try Zone Alarm or not...I have several versions, I've never deleted the older versions from my download folder when newer ones are released, I still have 5 or 6 versions sitting in a folder...

[ErnieK]

Asus A8N-E motherboard. using XP (32bit) prof.

Pete this is the board I used for my new build a few weeks ago and I did not have to install SATA drivers for it as they are built in. I just hooked up my 200BG drive formated it and away it went. I have it running as first boot without problems

[Paleo Pete]

Hmm...odd, with this one the XP setup stopped and said it didn't have a hard drive to install to, none listed by BIOS at bootup either. SATA drive was not seen by the system at all. We had to install SATA drivers to get XP to load. Tried it 3 times, same all 3 so I started trying to get drivers figured out. Drive is a Western Digital. The driver issue might be due to 64 bit Windows though, you're using 32 bit, I'm not. This is all 64 bit...whole different animal.

Should be delivering this one today, still not sure what to do about a firewall, it looks like none of the 32 bit ones will work, so I might be forced to go with Norton, which is a last resort for me. NIS is on the motherboard CD, but I don't really like it or the Windows firewall. Can't find anything else about Zone Alarm except the info listed on the pages posted here, so I'm not sure if it 's a good idea or not. I also have to set it up onsite, and will be getting printer and so forth installed and working, so I'll probably be back tinkering with it 3 or 4 times to get everything sorted out.

This was my one issue with a 64 bit system, too new. I've always waited about a year till they got the bugs worked out before, never jump into it when it's brand new...didn't try AGP till it was about a year old, then it worked great. Same for USB, P-II and P-III, Winderz ME and 2000, right on up the line...This is why. I don't like having to pull my hair out looking for a way to just get the thing up and running decent and halfway secure. I don't want to have to fight it. Put it together, install the OS and set things up and I want it to run without hassles. This might bring the hassles back to a customer, which is not a good thing.


Tiny Firewall Pro as the only one working that I can find (is that a pay app?).

Tiny Firewall 64 bit (http://www.tinysoftware.com/home/tiny2?s=5375286922906845599A0&&pg=content05&an=tf64_download) is $99, from what I can find on their website the home edition is $59, all are pay versions I think, didn't see anything about free on the site. Tiny is supposed to be a good firewall too, but I've never tried it. I'm wondering if it's worrth it to try ZA. UNinstall problems won't be an issue, if it will instyall and run I'm a happy camper.

[ErnieK]

Pete, sorry to piggyback your post, but as an aside to this board. If you can figure out how to enable the front mike and headphone coonnectors and still retain the use of rear desktop speakers and rear mike connection let me know. even Asus could not tell me. I can get either but not both.

[Paleo Pete]

Just off the top of my head, I don't have a clue...the case I got has cables that plug into the jacks in back and reroute them to the front panel, and no connectors to make use of the front panel onboard connectors. I rolled them up and tucked them away inside, since I don't think they will be used.

I just also took a quick look at the manual, it has nothing but the pinout for the onboard connectors, nothing about using both at one time. So, as far as I can tell, if Asus can't give you any answers, I doubt if it can be done...it's probably an either or situation. I'm not the one to ask about this board anyway, this is my first timt to use it and my first try at a 64 bit system, so I'm groping my way through it hoping I don't mess it up too bad in my ignorance...but so far it's turned out pretty well.

Downloaded Avast last night, used my USB drive to transfer it to a folder but will wait to install it until eberything else is set up and running right, Antivirus is always the very last thing I install, so I don't have to shut it down every time I need to install other software. I still have to get his printer and scanner drivers figured out, and find out what photo editing software will be used, check it for compatibility, and probably a few other things. So antivirus will wait a while, but it's sitting there ready to go when all the rest is done. Also just looked and I see Thunderbird 1.0.2 works, that's a good thing.

Anybody have experience with the Norton Internet Security? Know how well it works and if it's a decent firewall, any issues that will pop up with it, and does it end up with the same subscription nonsense their antivirus does? That's why I toook Norton Antivirus off my machine, I refuse to pay $30-40 for the software THEN pay to continue to use it. I'd like to see what they'd think if Ford or GM tried to make them pay $20 every time they had to get a new battery or tires on their car...I know that's not a great analogy but it's the same principle. Fender doesn't try to charge me a dollar every time I put new strings on my guitar, Peavey doesn't try to charge me every time I put new tubes in my amp, or better speakers, Ambassadeur doesn't try to charge me every time I put new line on my reels...Sorry, I just hate outright, blatant greed...

[pop pop]

My notebook came preloaded with NIS 2004. It's typical Norton...resource wise and hooks everywhere wise. As far as the firewall goes, it's very not intuitive, not like ZoneAlarm or Sygate. Subscription rules will apply. The Password Manager is a PITA. Never even looked at the antiSPAM feature. The AV is solid. Configuring the suite was also more effort than it should have been. Other than that, it's great! :(

I honestly hate bashing Norton because I was a fan from the very old days--all the way back to 1988. But now the only way I would use it is if nothing better was available.

[ErnieK]

Thanks Pete

[Paleo Pete]

Thanks pop pop that's about what I expected, I haven't used NIS but I've seen it on a few customers' machines and wasn't impressed. I'd install Adaware, Firefox, Spybot and try to get things lined out, it would pop up a notice that it was "setting access rules for xxxxx" program, go away and I had no idea what those rules were or how it decided what to allow or not allow. I may be left with no other choice, I suppose it's better than no firewall, but would rather have something else on here with more control.

I'm a bit different than you as far as past experience, the subscription thing hit the first time I ever used Norton and I didn't like that at all, and it bogged my P-233MMX down more than McAffee had (Win98SE, 256MB RAM). Fortunately AVG appeared about 2 months after I reinstalled with no antivirus at all and ran without one but carefully, I've used AVG ever since. Emailed McAffee twice about a problem I had with their software, no answer after 3 months so I broke the CD and threw it in the trash, emailed them again and told them where it was and that I would never spend another cent on their software if they didn't intend to support it. My opinion of Norton isn't a bit better.

[Paleo Pete]

OK we have issues...finally got to take it over and set it up, found out what hardware issues are going to be a problem.

Toshiba PCX 2600 USB Cable Modem
HP PSC2355 all in one printer
HP Photosmart 7550 printer

No drivers available for any of these that I can find so far. His wife is apparently a teacher and is getting ready for school, lesson plans etc and HAS to have a scanner. The printers will both print using a Deskjet 990c driver as per the HP website workaround, but no scanner. Cable modem won't work, so no Internet. I've been searching for drivers all evening, nothing...HP site has the Workaround (http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lang=en&lc=en&cc=us&docname=c00364640&lang=en&cc=us) but that's it.

Odd that the cable modem has no 64 bit drivers yet, Internet is practically required these days and I would have figured even the beta testers would have screamed about cable modem drivers long ago. No such luck, can't find a driver for it. The only one Driverguide listed was for win3.11 HUH??? I had to look at the post 3 times to be sure I was really seeing win3.11 there...didn't bother to try it, the Toshiba site didn't have anything, I don't think anyone else will either.

Anybody have any ideas or know of a site to get drivers I haven't found yet? I've never had a dissatisfied customer before and this is not fun...

[ErnieK]

Pete
I got this hit with Google. Hope it can be of some help.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cable+modem+64bit+drivers&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[pentachris]

Odd that the cable modem has no 64 bit drivers yet...
OK, I'm confused - the cable modem shouldn't require drivers. Unless, and this just hit me, maybe you've got it hooked up via USB? If so, just switch to ethernet and call the NIC MAC in to the cable company.

[ErnieK]

Pete
I went looking for something for you again and came up with this.

http://www.extended64.com/forums/426/ShowPost.aspx#426

a list of the various software etc that has 64Bit support with links to appropriate sites.