Sound Cards...

[jimmyo]

So I'm looking at a better speaker system for my computer, and I've came across another possible buy for my computer. I always see these Creative Sound Blaster cards at the computer stores and stuff and was wondering if I'd benefit from them or not. What all do the sound cards do exactly? Will they greatly enhance the sounds and things for games and/or everyday computing? Would I only benefit from them if I had like a 5.1 surround sound system or something?
I'm basically trying to make my computer into a really good gaming/entertainment system. I'm in the process of buying a Radeon X700 Pro Graphics card right now, but I might get a sound card too, if I find that it's worth it. Thanx!

[123456]

What's your current sound card?
Yes, you do need 5.1 speakers for the best effect of 5.1 sound cards.

[Whyzman]

It appears that your board has onboard audio. According to one of our audiophile regulars, saphalline, I believe he stated recently that the onboard audio now-a-days rivals separate sound cards.

For speakers, you might want to have a serious look at Logitech. Their subwoofers are absolute dyno-mite! Here's one example: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002WPSBC/102-9856350-4547351?v=glance&n=541966&n=507846&s=pc&v=glance

[jimmyo]

Yeah, mine has the onboard audio. That's all I really know about it though.

Those Logitech speakers are really nice, but WAAAAY out of my spending range. I was looking at something more under the $70 range. I guess im just going to stick with what I've got and go with these.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Creative-Labs-Inspire-T3000-2-1-Speakers-T3000-/sem/rpsm/oid/98317/catOid/-13041/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

It's not 5.1 , but people seem to really like these. I guess I could ask this now. This may be a dumb question, but do you all think this would be a very good upgrade from my speakers that my computer came with?

[i an not a nerd]

This may be a dumb question, but do you all think this would be a very good upgrade from my speakers that my computer came with?

My guess is yes! Btw, here is decent 5.1 system that i use for games: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16836121118


Also, about sound cards, I find an enormous difference between onboard and dedicated sound cards. I have the Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS sound card and it is "teh pwnage" lol. Amazing sound. Anyways, with a dedicated sound card you free up CPU usuage (a big plus for games).

[Whyzman]

Here's a bigger selection of the Logitech's: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/102-9856350-4547351?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&field-keywords=logitech+speakers

What I would suggest doing is going to one of the big box stores or our local computer store where they have a selection of them hooked up and give them the personal test.

In my later years I've become much more respectful of the fact that not everyone "appreciates" my choices in music. Also, gaming noises can get a bit annoying. I invested in some wireless Sennheiser headphones that are simply out of this world.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-9856350-4547351

There maybe better deals to be had on these bad boys, but they are awesome and you don't contribute to "noise pollution!"

Again, as far as they onboard vs. PCI...I would defer to sapalline as far as CPU usage and drain on one's gaming system. Hopefully, he'll stop by and chime in...

[Rick]

if you intend to do video capture with the on board sound.
You may find a sound lag in your video files.

It looks like a hit or miss setup.
Some have No problem with it.
I have found 2 systems with on board sound that would not match the sound to the video.
Installing a PCI souund card was the cure .. Even a simple Sound Blaster Live card is better than some of the on board sound chips

[saphalline]

Hmmm... loaded question these days. Separate sound card or onboard audio?

As of right now, if you want a sound card for gaming, I would suggest nothing less than an Audigy2 ZS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829102178) or one of the X-Fi's (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829102188). If you can't afford one of those, don't bother. Rick has a good point about video capturing with a DSP instead of a codec-based audio adapter, but I just can't recommend an old SB Live! sound card for modern gaming. The capabilities for hardware acceleration just aren't there, which means emulation in software regardless of the DSP. At least the Audigy2 and X-Fi have massive support for 3D hardware voices/sources and the latest EAX Advanced HD (as well as DTS and all that for DVD playback in hardware). The older SB's don't have these.

DSP-based audio solutions like Creative Labs is famous for does indeed rely less on the CPU for audio duties. The purpose of the DSP is for full hardware acceleration of DAC on the audio streams. Codec-based audio solutions like onboard audio is basically a quick set of instructions for the CPU to perform DAC on the audio streams. There are advantages to both, but for gaming the DSP reigns supreme. But of course, this might be short-lived given the new breed of games. For instance, HL2 and Doom3 both used custom audio engines so that the game designers could produce complex sound effects and exact 3D interferences that no current DSP can do (X-Fi included). The result is that the audio is processed in software by the CPU regardless of your audio device. Upon hearing of these new A-class audio engines, NVidia discontinued development of their excellent SoundStorm audio chips. While I do admit that having an Audigy2 ZS or X-Fi is better than onboard audio for gaming (overall) I must also concede the point that most future A-class games won't use the DSP's on these sound cards. For instance, pretty much any game that uses the HL2 or Doom3 engines (because the custom audio engines come with the rest of the rendering engine). I hear rumours that the Quake4 engine will also have a custom audio engine. This is also why Futuremark's 3DMark 05 doesn't have an audio test, like the previous versions do. If this is all true, what future does Creative Labs' sound division have?

About the only thing I can think of for future sound cards is codec-based solutions. Onboard does have the disadvantage of noise and local RF interference, but then again I've seen more and more mobo's lately that have onboard audio mounted on a PCI card to combat these issues. Codec-based solutions are infinitely more customizable in their sound creation vs a DSP, and if these custom audio engines for games continue to be developed, then codec and DSP sound solutions will become indistinguishable in terms of sound accuracy and reproduction. One of the few advantages of an X-Fi right now is the lower noise/RF interference and a few DSP-enabled functions with certain games. But the gap is decreasing all the time. I predict that PCI/PCIe-mounted onboard audio solutions will multiply over the next year, and become much more popular among gamers who want to shell out more money for their graphics and dual-core CPU's than for their audio equipment.

This sort of ended up being a long rant, but that's my opinion on this matter. Not a very succinct opinion ;) but my opinion, nonetheless.

[Rick]

I should have included that I don't do any gaming with these rigs

BTW,,
If you buy one of the new sound blaster cards and you run Nortons Antivirus
Check both sites for compatablity issues
the SB Audi and nortons 2005 don't play well together

[DigitalJ]

While I do admit that having an Audigy2 ZS or X-Fi is better than onboard audio for gaming (overall) I must also concede the point that most future A-class games won't use the DSP's on these sound cards.

I predict that PCI/PCIe-mounted onboard audio solutions will multiply over the next year, and become much more popular among gamers who want to shell out more money for their graphics and dual-core CPU's than for their audio equipment.


And I immagine that game designers will make full use of multi-core procs by, among other things, including even more custom sound. If I was a bettin' man, I'd say that the xfi's are the last gasp of the sound card age. They'll come out with all sorts of neat acessories, but in two years the market just won't be there. As Saph said, the benefits keep dwindling, and it's far more expensive.

[i an not a nerd]

As Saph said, the benefits keep dwindling, and it's far more expensive....

But, can the onboard sound card give me extreme high def sound pumping through my music system I wonder..... (My sub can go down to 4 Hz and the tweeters to 60,000 Hz lets see an onboard sound card give me that! Then again, theres the problem of cooling all the HDs to keep all my music at high quality...)

[pop pop]

I agree with everything said here. HOWEVER...I have a question. What about professional sound mixing/editing...as in music? I have a friend who just started that sort of business. He did it for fun for a while, naturally using the top of the SOundBlaster line. He's now going commercial. As good as onboard sound is, and given the technical caveats stated here with regard to gaming, someone in the sound "business" would still make good use of a separate sound card, don't ya think?

BTW--definitely upgrade the speakers. If you want to stay with 2.1's, try out the Klipsch Pro Media GMX. You'll be amazed. I am every time I listen to mine.

[i an not a nerd]

someone in the sound "business" would still make good use of a separate sound card, don't ya think?


O yes definatly, one of my friends makes trance music for extra $$$ (originally for fun) and used his onboard sound card. Because of this, he was very limited in the quality (kbps) he could "render" the music at. Also, he was limited to 2 channels. He bought a Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum Sound Card recently and now he can make 64 channels of sound at really nice quality. Sound cards are here to stay. And also, think about it movie creation... and in music creation. They may not use PCI sound cards, but they use the technology. I believe that Creative is licensing the technology for their X-Fi proccessor for other applications such as TVs, dvd players, mixing boards, amps, etc.

[saphalline]

My sub can go down to 4 Hz and the tweeters to 60,000 Hz lets see an onboard sound card give me that!Onboard audio chips can do that. Minimum playback rate for AC97 qualifications is 96KHz. Will onboard audio give you the same quality as a separate sound card? Depends on how the audio is outputted. Like I said, HL2's custom audio engine runs everything in software, so the audio output is sent to your speakers in pre-rendered signals. It sounds the same on every system. Noise and speaker quality also has an impact, but the original audio stream signals are always the same.

Here I only qualified onboard audio as being "good enough" for gaming. I said nothing about recording or music editing. You want the best for that, you're looking at one of the high-class editing sound cards that have both a DSP and a complex codec chip. These professional sound cards can reach upwards of $300-500. And it's very difficult to find a vendor/seller for those things (very odd I think). Otherwise, for basic recording, yes you'll need a separate sound card with multiple inputs and outputs. Onboard audio is only meant for playback, not recording. Their recording capabilities are very simple - usually limited to stereo 96KHz 16-bit samples (as has been mentioned).

Something like an X-Fi can input multi-channel 96KHz 24-bit samples from analog, and can mesh all sorts of waveform combos and digital samples with ease. In fact, one of the interesting aspects of the X-Fi audio processor is that it's a programmable audio engine with multiple embedded mini-DSP's and codecs. It has over 51 million transistors, runs at 400MHz, is capable of 10340 MIPS, and has onboard RAM configurations of 2MB to 64MB. This is only scratching the surface of what the X-Fi can do, but suffice to say that this thing is a monster!

The only thing Creative Labs needs to worry about now is whether this monster will be used, or if the performance disparity between it and onboard audio will force game designers to use more custom audio engines. DigitalJ brings up a good point in favor of custom audio engines running in software: with dual-core CPU's already here, and with quad- and multi-core on the way, why not use all that extra power? What's wrong with running the audio engine and the AI on one core while the physics and game code runs on another? Very soon we will have plenty of cores with plenty of horsepower available to us, which makes the X-Fi's ten thousand MIPS seem quaint. Especially when you also consider that most A-list games (*cough* Doom3 *cough*) can take up to 5 years to make. Where will our hardware be in 5 years?

I'm not saying that discrete audio solutions are dead, I'm just saying that gamers can more or less skip it. $400 worth of sound card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829102191) is usually better spent on a more powerful vid card these days (or a second one!). Unless you already have two 7800 GTX's in SLI and two gigs of RAM, who wants to spend that much on a sound card? Historically speaking, I haven't seen many PC gamers that buy a separate sound card if they don't need it. And if they do, they buy the cheapest thing they can find.

[i an not a nerd]

Eh, I find a performance increase in most games. Btw for HL2 you can force it to use EAX.