Shut Down Problems

[bowen]

I am describing four separate problems because I think they may all be related. I have Win98, and all of the following problems occur frequently but intermittently:
1) When I shutdown from the Start Menu, instead of completing the Shut down, I am left with a black screen with a strange blue line at the top.
2) When Power Management shuts down the computer for a relatively long time, it won't wake up again.
3) Sometimes the system spontaneously shuts itself down and restarts itself while I am using it.
4) Sometimes the system freezes up completely. After 2-5 minutes it will unfreeze itself. This usually happens when I am using certain Internet sites, usually with "search" functions.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Sylvander]

Hello bowen

In these circumstances I would not even bother trying to figure out the cause . I'd just eliminate it by re-formatting my C: drive and restoring a [good] backup taken before the problem appeared. If that fixed it I'd know it was a software or configuration problem.

If that didn't fix it I'd be looking for a hardware cause.

If you don't have a backup and it's not too long since the problem appeared then going to a DOS prompt and typing "scanreg /restore" and selecting one of the five backups taken before the problem developed might make it disappear like magic. [that's if it is only a configuration problem]

[classicsoftware]

Dear Bowen:

Welcome to the forum.

I don't think you have to reformat and reinstall, at least not yet. That is a tool of last resort. It's a little overkill to start out with.
You should post back all of your system specs, processor, RAM, hard disk, video card, etc...
First I would disable ALL power management software. Microsoft has never done a good job of implemeting this feature of the OS. Reboot and see what happens. It may be as simple as that. Let us know what happens. Some brighter people that me will happen by with their suggestions.

[bowen]

Hello, Sylvander,
It's been too long to do the registry backup, and I am hoping I won't have to do the C: drive reformat. I will keep that option in mind as a last resort. Thanks for replying.


Originally posted by Sylvander:
Hello bowen

In these circumstances I would not even bother trying to figure out the cause . I'd just eliminate it by re-formatting my C: drive and restoring a [good] backup taken before the problem appeared. If that fixed it I'd know it was a software or configuration problem.

If that didn't fix it I'd be looking for a hardware cause.

If you don't have a backup and it's not too long since the problem appeared then going to a DOS prompt and typing "scanreg /restore" and selecting one of the five backups taken before the problem developed might make it disappear like magic. [that's if it is only a configuration problem]

[bowen]

Hello, classicsoftware
My computer is a Dell 400 MHz Pentium II with 128 MB SDRAM, 8.4 GB Ultra ATA hard drive,& 16 MB STB nVidia TNT AGP Graphics card. I'm running Win 98 using Internet Explorer 5.5,& Panda Titanium virus protection. The power management software has already been disabled, with no change in the other three problems. Let me know if you have any other ideas. Thanks for your suggestions.

Originally posted by classicsoftware:
Dear Bowen:

Welcome to the forum.

I don't think you have to reformat and reinstall, at least not yet. That is a tool of last resort. It's a little overkill to start out with.
You should post back all of your system specs, processor, RAM, hard disk, video card, etc...
First I would disable ALL power management software. Microsoft has never done a good job of implemeting this feature of the OS. Reboot and see what happens. It may be as simple as that. Let us know what happens. Some brighter people that me will happen by with their suggestions.

[Anubis]

"4) Sometimes the system freezes up completely. After 2-5 minutes it will unfreeze itself. This usually happens when I am using certain Internet sites, usually with "search" functions."

What sites does this freezing occur. Does the freezing occur when you actually enter what your searching for or as your looking at the search page? This sounds like their could be a plugin for IE that is fubarred. I think this is a seperate issue from your power issues.

How did you disable the power software? Did it actually load and you shut it down or did you disable it from even loading on startup?

------------------
I can feel the wheel, but I can't steer
When my thoughts become my biggest fear
Ah, what's the difference, I'll die
In this sick world of mine

[bowen]

Hello, Anubis
Welcome to the discussion. The freezing only occurs part of the time, e.g. sometimes after typing in what I'm looking for in Google, it freezes when I click on the "Google Search" button. After 2-5 minutes, it continues and brings up the search results.
I shut down the Power Management function through the Control Panel.
I hope this helps. Thanks.

Originally posted by Anubis:
"4) Sometimes the system freezes up completely. After 2-5 minutes it will unfreeze itself. This usually happens when I am using certain Internet sites, usually with "search" functions."

What sites does this freezing occur. Does the freezing occur when you actually enter what your searching for or as your looking at the search page? This sounds like their could be a plugin for IE that is fubarred. I think this is a seperate issue from your power issues.

How did you disable the power software? Did it actually load and you shut it down or did you disable it from even loading on startup?

[Anubis]

Here is an idea, goto Start....Run...msconfig and then click over to the startup tab. It will list all the programs that automatically are brought up when windows comes up, make sure the power software is not loading something behind the scenes that could be giving you fits.

Try using another search engine instead of google and see if the system freezes. Be interesting if its related to that search engine or em all.

------------------
I can feel the wheel, but I can't steer
When my thoughts become my biggest fear
Ah, what's the difference, I'll die
In this sick world of mine

[classicsoftware]

Dear Bowen:

You don't have to quote my responses when you answer the questions. I'm old, but not so Old I don't remember what I asked you.

How do you get on-line? Cable/DSL/T1/Dial-up?

You could have some program that is trying to update when you first go on line and be using your resources......

When you get a freeze, hit <CTRL>+<ALT>+<DEL> once and bring up the close program dialog and lest us know what programs are running in the backround.

Also when you start up and get to the desk top, do the following and report the results:

Right click on my computer
Choose properties.
Click on perfromance
what % of resources are free?

[bowen]

OK, here we go. I'll try to answer as many of your questions as possible.
1) When I first start up, 88% of system resources are free.
2) I'm connecting through a 56k modem dial up.
3) Programs that are running now (from Cntl-Alt-Del): Explorer, Accstat, ZoneAlarm, Apvxdwin & Pavproxy(both virus components), Stimon, Systray, & Rnaapp. When it freezes, I can't do a Cntl-Alt-Del or anything else.
4) I have used other search engines without problems, but since it only freezes intermittently, I probably haven't used the others enough to really test whether or not they are freeze proof. It sometimes freezes on e-bay's search, and Forum searches, such as PCguide's.
5) According to MSCONFIG, the following items load at StartUp: ScanRegistry, System Tray, Load Power Profile, StillimageMonitor, APVXDWIN(that's a Panda program), Load Power Profile(again), Encompass_ENCMONTR, V128IID, Zone Alarm, TrueVector, & MiniLog(these last two also with ZoneAlarm).
Thanks to all of you who are working on this.

[mjc]

OK, there isn't really all that much running that isn't needed...

Stimon, unless you do a lot of scanning isn't really needed, but it isn't really that big of a program.

LoadPowerProfile runs twice, once before login and once after...it can be prevented from running if you are not using any of Windows power management features.

Encompass_ENCMONTR:

Some computer manufacturers (Compaq, Dell and others) use software to have you sign-up with their Internet services. This places an entry called Encompass_ENCMONTR in the Startup tab from msconfig (Select Start > Run and type msconfig in the Open: box). You can remove this entry by deselecting it's check-box (Not recommended IF you are indeed connected with the ISP from your computer manufacturer), this has fixed the annoying prompt "Do you Want To Close Your Connection?" for many.

from: http://www.windows-help.net/windows98/ie50-09.shtml

Looks like the V128IID may part of the video drivers for an STB velocity card...if you are using that card look for an updated set of drivers. If not hunt down and remove all the drivers for it.....



------------------
mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[bowen]

I just took the two "Load Power Profile's" and the "Encompass_ENCMONTR" out of the Start Up, and It has at least stopped the annoying prompt. I have looked for a way to stop that thing.
I already uninstalled and reinstalled the video drivers. According to Dell's update site, there are no updated video drivers for that card. Thanks for your help. I'm always open to more suggestions.

[classicsoftware]

How does your anti-virus software update?

Some anti-virus programs will go on line to whenever there is a connection to get updates, this can cause the problem you experience.

Do you have any Intuit products, such as Quicken or QuickBooks?

They also have automatic update features...

You should disbale all power management in MSCONFIG. Also check the bios to see of there is any power management in the bios.

The system doesn't really freeze, it just pauses as if all of the processing power is devoted to something other than your surfing and returns after a few minutes.....

Please advise.

[bowen]

The only automatic updates I am aware of are done by the anti-virus software. When it updates, other functions slow down but don't freeze. I have not had another freeze since I ran "Repair I.E. 5.5" from the Control Panel's Install/Uninstall. It's really too early to tell if that made a difference since it has only been two days. I'll be testing that with Google regularly.
Following your suggestions, all power management is now disabled in the BIOS as well as in MSCONFIG StartUp.
I've also noticed that the longer I use the computer in a given session, the more likely it is to have ShutDown problems.
Thanks.

[kayofcircles]

bowen : Just a couple of thoughts..hopefully, you already have the problem fixed. But in Internet Options, Advanced tab, second line under Browsing has an automatic update line that can be unchecked. ZA has an automatic update on the Configure page. You said you already unchecked the AV auto update. And I asked mjc recently about what it should say in Power Management (in Control Panel) and he confirmed the "Always, Never, Never, Never" settings there. And this a bit of a "stretch", but I remember reading that if one has "Auto insert" turned on for the CDRom, that the puter has to check every so often and see if there is anything in the CDRom. We always turn ours off, so have no idea if that's really true.

There's a good troubleshooter on Shutdown problems at aumha.org (http://www.aumha.org/a/shutdown.htm) you might glance through. And just to cover all possible bases, have you "dusted" the innards lately with a can of compressed air? We are still working on an older puter...and you would not believe the dust clouds that flew out of that one! I am just a bit concerned about your number 3 on your first post, but hopefully that was a power management type glitch.

And last..my system is really close in specs to yours, and there are a few places that my system struggles with...ironically, M$'s "improved" database is one of them..but sites with multiple pop up windows will slow me down something fierce, so I make a mental note to not go "there" again. But not Google, thank goodness..so please post back if you're still having problems.

[bowen]

I'm beginning to think that I have been dealing with three separate problems.1) Since I disabled Power Management in the bios I get the "It's Now Safe to Turn Off Your Computer" message when I shut down. That's different, and so far has worked great. 2) I took Kayofcircles' advice and chased the dustbunnies out of the computer's fan, air intake, and other internal nooks and crannies. But, ironically, when I rebooted after the cleaning, the computer almost immediately spontaneously shut down and rebooted. That was before I turned off the autoinsert for the CD-ROM and the CD-writer, which I have now done. When it does the spontaneous reboot there seems to be an immediate access noise from the CD-writer. 3)It still has not frozen again since I did the "Repair IE 5.5" routine. I have my fingers crossed. Thanks to all of you who have been offering suggestions.

[kayofcircles]

I agree..think at least two separate issues involved here. I think you may have fixed the browser slowdown by either a combination of changing the Power Management things and removing unneccessary items from StartUp, or one of them. But think the Shutdown problem is separate. I may have erred by mentioning the Auto Insert stuff..have a alarm memory bell going off in head because I seem to remember that some CD writers insist on leaving it "on" for theirs..so please check with your manufacturer on that part. The CDRom part should be fine. Did you look through the Shutdown Troubleshooter (http://www.aumha.org/a/shutdown.htm)? Frankly, I am rapidly getting out of my depth here because we've never had to deal with spontaneous reboots before. I was concerned about heat, and that's why I mentioned dusting..and it's a good idea to do that on a regular basis anyway especially if one lives in dusty areas like ours. Did you check and see if fans were turning normally after you dusted? We've had to replace fans every so often..

Another thought..and we really need one of our experts to check back in..but if you go into Safe Mode (reboot, hold Control key down, choose Safe mode) and look in Device Manager, is it showing a bunch of "ghost" things...like 4 monitors, and three video cards..that kind of thing? If so, remove all the "ghosts" there in Safe mode. I am assuming you have drivers, and it's been recommended here to remove all video cards in Safe mode (if there are "extras") and let Windows "find new hardware" upon rebooting. Same for modems. I don't think one needs to do that for monitors and printers, but unsure. We didn't..just removed the ghosts.

Something I should have asked before. Is this a "new" problem? Has it just begun..the spontaneous reboot and shutdown stuff..recently? Have you installed anything in the last few weeks? Sometimes the weirdest stuff happens..like my husband installed a game, and I played it one day on his puter, and then couldn't get puter to Shutdown afterward. Kept getting the "this program is busy and not responding" and nothing in ConAltDel except for Explorer...so ran a Scandisk in "desperation" and afterwards, 98 shutdown fine. Have no idea, but went ahead and uninstalled the game.

[mjc]

Removing the "ghost" drivers for all devices that show them is always a good idea...if for no other reason it trims some of the junk from your registry. If you know exactly which item listed is the active one then you don't have to remove them all, but at least for me, if I don't know I end up removing the active one anyway...so I just remove them all.

------------------
mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[bowen]

I had hoped the ShutDown problem was gone, but, alas, it happened last night and again late this morning. Both times when I ShutDown, it left me with a black screen with a strange blue line at the top. The line is composed of small blue dots in strange patterns, like a code. It goes all the way across the top of the screen. Someone else must have seen this line and knows what causes it.
Yes, I did look at the ShutDown Troubleshooter and tried some of the suggestions; many of them I had already done. I am unable to do some of the troubleshooting there and in Microsoft's "StartUp & ShutDown Troubleshooter" because my shutdown problem is intermittent. For example, under one procedure it says "If the computer restarts correctly, repeat steps 1-5, but in step 4, click to clear one of the check boxes. Continue repeating these steps, clearing an additional check box each time, until your computer does not restart correctly. Once your computer does not restart correctly, repeat steps 1-5 again. In step 4, click to clear all the check boxes except the last check box that you cleared in step 6. Click to select this check box."
If mine restarts correctly it doesn't really tell me anything. That has made troubleshooting this thing very difficult.

The fans seem to be functioning fine.
As far as the "ghost things" in Device Manager, the only things that looked strange were an "Unknown Monitor" in addition to my monitor and an "Unknown Device" under "Other Devices". I left them alone pending sage advice from this forum.
These problems have been going on for several weeks or longer. The only recent software I recall is an update to my Panda AV program, but I am fairly sure the problems started before that.
Speaking of games, my computer does have several of my stepson's games, though he hasn't played them recently, preferring his PlayStation. That's all for now. The Shutdown drama continues.

[mjc]

Remove both of the unknown devices.....


------------------
mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[bowen]

I have removed both unknown devices. They only showed up on Device Manager when I was in Safe Mode. Also, holding down Cntrol at bootup didn't work on my computer; to get to safe mode, I had to enable the StartUp menu through MSCONFIG.

[kayofcircles]

There's another..either F5 or F8..that is supposed to work, but Microsoft said to hold down the Control key for 98. That said, I too have had to do the msconfig thing because couldn't "catch it" right. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif Ghosts do only show up in Safe mode, and it's a good thing to check after installing a new printer or monitor or whatever because sometimes ghost devices cause a conflict in the background.

You said that you had checked on the automatic update for your anti-virus, but you did "disable" the automatic stuff, right? For me, the most aggravating part of Shutdown problems is that although one knows there is something "running" in the background making it impossible to shutdown, one doesn't know "what" because in the rare occasions it happens to us, there's nothing showing in the ConAltDel screen. One computer that we worked on wouldn't restart or shutdown...and we were pretty close to the end of the troubleshooter I linked above before doing something that made it possible for 98 to shutdown normally. We didn't fix the restart problem..it still hung on that, but we figured they could turn it all the way off, wait a few seconds, and turn it back on in those few times that rebooting is necessary. Best we could do without wiping and starting over and losing their stuff.

Is there any particular program that is usually running right before you try to Shutdown? The reason I ask is because I have a 95 game that I like to play, and I have learned through experience that I need to "give it a minute" or so after closing the game screen before shutting down the puter. Apparently, something "hangs" just a bit on the game so that when 98 is wandering around the puter turning off lights and locking windows, it will hang on that if I haven't given the game time to close completely out. I have noticed that "rnaapp"..the modem stuff.."hangs" a bit after disconnecting from the Net. Just a minute or so.

Edit: Did you get the Customer Service pack for 98...the bug fix thing? You can either download it, or order it on CD, if you haven't already installed it. Really reaching..don't know if it would help at all, but couldn't hurt.. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif Customer Service Pack for 98 (http://www.microsoft.com/windows98/downloads/default.asp)

[This message has been edited by kayofcircles (edited 06-25-2002).]

[bowen]

I can't believe no one else has seen those strange blue hieroglyphics I get when the puter doesn't shutdown correctly. Yes, I have disabled the automatic AV updating, ZoneAlarm's automatic updating, and even Outlook Express's automatic mail server checking. I'm now operating everything manually, even turning the hand crank to get it going in the morning.
The Win98 Server Pack and other updates have been installed.
Usually the last program I use before shutdown is Internet Explorer. I use the Internet most of the time since I teach two on-line college courses. One thing I thought of trying is Netscape instead, to see if the problems persist with a different browser. I still have the shutdown problem and the spontaneous rebooting problem (it did it just after I cleaned out the dust bunnies), but I haven't had a "freeze" in several days. Of course, with the Power Management disabled and removed, I don't have to worry about that one anymore.
I'm also taking Kayofcircles' advice to wait a few minutes after closing programs before shuting down. I'll report on how it goes.

[kayofcircles]

If you want to try another browser, many here are using and recommend Opera (http://www.opera.com/download/get.pl?platform=win&force=6.01) .

When I have a Shutdown problem..thankfully, very rare..I get stuck right on the "dimmed" Desktop. Get the "this program is busy" silliness when nothing "running" other than the shutdown program..lol..so have no knowledge of interesting screens. My uncle, with ME, reports his problem shutdowns as "golden Venetian blinds". I can usually reboot mine with the ConAltDel stuff, and then it will shut down normally..so I do recommend giving it a minute or so, and the rnaapp does hang a bit as I said above on my 98, 400 Mhz, IE 5 puter. There's a lot going on in the background when the OS shuts down..files being put back and things closed out..etc, etc. Much like a shop owner turning off lights, locking windows and doors, etc before leaving for the night. Too many improper shutdowns can cause serious damage. We worked on one, with ME, where the guy had shutdown problems, so just yanked the plug to turn puter off...hard drive totally messed up and had to be replaced. And we gave him a stern tutorial on proper shutdown. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Edit: I just thought of something else. When I go offline for the day, I right click on ZA and turn it off. No sense it using resources when I don't need it..but I notice that often the hour glass pops up for a few seconds while ZA is "closing down". Just a thought, but you might try closing ZA out before shutting down as well.

[This message has been edited by kayofcircles (edited 06-26-2002).]

[bowen]

Well, I've been away from this forum for a few days, and I definitely notice a difference because of the new software. I said I would report back, so here goes: In the last several days I have experienced the freezes, faulty shutdowns, and spontaneous reboots. However, there is some good news. These problems seem confined to Internet Explorer, because when I use Netscape 4.6, which was already on my computer, everything seems to work smoothly. Thanks Microsoft. I have my fingers crossed yet again.

[John0904]

bowen,

This may or may help you with your shutdown, but it's worth a shot. :)

I had a problem with the computer coming back from stand-by mode.
It was totally random. It would either come back fine, or it would lockup with a blue screen or I'd have a black screen and lockup.

After this has happened off and on for about a month, I found out it was ZoneAlarm causing the problem. When I turned off ZA and went to stand-by repeatly, it came back fine.

Come to find out, if I lowered my Hardware Acceleration for my graphic card one notch, the problem stopped.

Go to your display settings and lower your 'Performance' one notch and see if you are able to shut down ok.

If that doesn't work, that rules out that idea. :D

Also there might be a conflict with ZA and another program running.
Just another idea.


BTW, I'm not too fond of ZoneAlarms technical support site. Very limited in my opinion.

[bowen]

Hello, John
I have already cut the graphics acceleration by a notch and tried shutting down ZoneAlarm before shutting down the computer. Neither of those made any difference. Thanks for the suggestions.

[kayofcircles]

bowen: I just discovered that you can turn off the atavars/pictures if you find them distracting. Go into the userCP at the top..and find the option part.

And I am a bit uncertain about your problem now. Are you saying that you can work around the "freeze" problem by using Netscape, but are still having the Shutdown problem? Or using Netscape solves that too? If that's the case..that using Netscape solves the whole thing..maybe you just need to uninstall IE and try reinstalling. If not, then I am pretty much at wits end. You did say, early in this thread, that the shutdown problem seemed to be related to "how long" the computer was running, so you don't "hear" any change in the sound, right? Like maybe a fan isn't turning properly after awhile, or something? If you've looked through the shutdown troubleshooter, and none of that worked..and done all the stuff you did above..it just may be that you do need to consider a "fresh" start. Hopefully someone will have a better idea, but in case you do need to go that route.. Revamping Windows (http://www.pcnuthut.com/Info/revampwindows.htm) has a good article on saving important stuff and reinstalling 98. And a second opinion/article here at ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews/0,4161,2531288,00.html).