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Son of Zeus
09-19-2000, 03:08 PM
I want to add a newer, larger, faster Hard Drive to my older i486DX4-S/100MHz PC. Does anyone know if my drive interface has the bandwidth to handle the maximum burst transfer rates of a modern HD? Or have they outstripped the DX4’s capabilities?

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Charles Kozierok
09-19-2000, 11:21 PM
What's the interface type of the hard disk controller? PCI or VLB? If it's ISA, fahgettaboudit.
You may (probably will) have BIOS size barrier issues to contend with as well..

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...
Note: Please reply to my forum postings here on the forums. Thanks.

Will Rickards
09-20-2000, 12:51 AM
since you are intending to upgrade the memory and hard drive...
why not the motherboard, processor, video card? I wouldn't plunk down
any more money into a 486.

------------------
Will Rickards ~ wrickard@home.com
http://www.willrickards.net

Paleo Pete
09-20-2000, 01:00 PM
Don't know if the machine will handle modern drives, but you're very likely to run across an 8GB size limitation no matter what you do. You can get an EIDE controller card for $50 or less that will handle larger drives on a 486 up to 6 or 8 GB, depending on the motherboard, chipset and BIOS. I would check around for smaller drives in the 2-4GB range since you're likely to have to set up 2GB partitions also. DOS 6.22 and Win95A only support 2GB partitions, win95B went to basically unlimited, but the machine won't handle really large drives.

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-20-2000, 02:00 PM
ixl,

don't know about the interface type of the hard disk controller, but will look into it. The BIOS limitations have already been a nightmare...in terms of getting info re upgrading my BIOS. Have tried Award & Phoenix who supplied the BIOS. They tell me to try ASUS who supplied the motherboard. But after numerous attempts I have given up on ASUS as they refuse to answer my emails.

Will,

since my goal was to take an older computer & upgrade & improve it to achieve its maximum potential (sort of like those strange people who enjoy taking old dilapidated cars & spend a lot of time & effort, but hopefully not to much money, in finding parts etc to restore them) changing the motherboard, processor, video card would be self-defeating. The DX4 does everything that I want it to as it is basically a student's PC. I only use it to access the Net for research & use Word 97 for email & word processing. I am playing around with Excel & Access 97, just to learn them to add to my resume, but that’s all. None of these tasks are CPU intensive & there are Net Appliances on the market, like my current Sharp Electronic Organiser, which I seriously doubt would be as powerful as the DX4, yet still can be used for email & Web Browsing. So I would consider any further purchases to be overkill. A Pentium, even a 100MHz, would be too much power.

My real interest is in programming-for which I will use mainframes. I just want the satisfaction of getting the best possible performance out of my current DX4. For this I need to increase the RAM & install yet another newer, faster Hard Drive. With such an old machine I only buy second hand parts, which hold their value. I already have four legacy Hard Drives & the original 16MB (2x8MB) FPM RAM to sell eventually. They will virtually cover the cost of these upgrades, as you can sell them for the same price that you buy them for.

Paleo Pete,

I would lean towards a software overlay rather than an EIDE controller card-as it is free with the drive. My ex-wife once told me: “you are so tight you would have difficulty even passing strawberries”. But I say: “Why waste a strawberry? It may not be properly digested yet.”

Thanks all. The saga continues. As they say the best way to learn is in the front line of the battle. And doing up a 2nd hand legacy PC, with no manuals, & no prior knowledge of PCs has certainly been “front line” stuff. But it has also been an invaluable learning curve.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-20-2000, 11:17 PM
Zeus: Glad someone else is into the older stuff. I have several here ranging from 8086 w/10-20MB MFM hard drives, to 386, & P-60. Unfortunately the 286 died...I'm using 3 versions of DOS, Win3.11 and win 98 on various machines. Don't guess I'll ever stop, it's too much fun tinkering with them.

On yours though, I'd still stick with smaller hard drives, 2-4GB or so. Larger would be overkill, and some motherboards won't accept over 8GB period. If it's over 8GB it refuses to use the hard drive under any circumstances. Dynamic Drive Overlay or not, BIOS upgrade or not, EIDE card or not. End of story. That's what you're very likely to find with any 486 machine, I found out the hard way.

As long as you know about the drive size limitations and how to deal with them, it's your choice which way to go. Drive overlays work well, and as you said, are cheaper...

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-21-2000, 02:00 PM
Paleo Pete,

good to hear from another "Legacy Lover". I also have a second earlier model 486, although I am not sure exactly what it is yet, as I have been concentrating on my beloved DX4/100. Which will be passed on to my young daughter, "The Princess", when I eventually get a new system. I know it will serve her well as an entry level PC to learn the basics & run some children’s games.

I am still trying to track down an article re an entrepreneur in the US who has had his programmers working on a very basic GUI which incorporates a word processor, spreadsheet, database & web browser that will run back to 386s. It loads on a Pentium in only 3 seconds.

Now that is one lean, mean, fighting machine in my books. Evidently he picks up old PCs that companies have sitting in warehouses, because they are too expensive to dispose of, due to the heavy metals etc in them which can't be put into landfills. So he takes them off their hands, has his technicians check them out & install his software & flogs them for about a $100 US.

He wants partners to work with him. I’m sure these would sell like hotcakes in Asia, where interestingly enough, AMD Durons are outselling Thunderbirds 4 to 1. The complete reverse of the US where the Thunders are the prime mover.

Think about it...an Internet Appliance with basic PC functionality.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-21-2000, 10:45 PM
Just a note I thought you might find interesting, concerning my old dinosaurs. Before I had to resort to Juno (the worst peice of crap I've seen yet) because they bought out freewwweb and dotnow quit, and it's not much better...

I used my Packard Bell Legend 100CD on the net a couple of times. It has Win3.11, 20MB RAM, 340MB Seagate drive and 140MB Western Digital, 2X CD ROM, sound card and 14.4 modem. Logged on fine, at 14,400 and had no trouble surfing, even posted a message on another forum related to obsolete machines. I use this machine regularly to run Microsoft Money, since it came with it, and for games I don't want to put on my P-200MMX, which I'm using now. All I had to do was replace the dead 540MB hard drive, and figure out the line in config.sys to give the CD ROM a new drive letter. Still works perfect, and even plays Descent well. Haven't tried Descent II yet, but plan to soon.

Obsolete Computer Helpline (http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/helpline/helpline.html) if you're interested. Some people there have posted messages recently about using 286 machines to get on the net with Arachne. One guy even said he'd used a 9600 baud modem...

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-25-2000, 09:29 PM
Paleo Pete,

thanks for the Obsolete Computer Helpline link it appears interesting & I will post there directly. Have found some BIOS info don’t know if this will help. Any thoughts?

MY i486DX4-S/100MHz PC’s BIOS INFORMATION
=========================================
First Screen:
 TRIDENT TVGA BIOS A5.2(67)
 1024k 32bit Bus DRAM VGA Mode
 Copyright 1994 TRIDENT MICROSYSTEMS INC.
 Copyright 1990 Phoenix Technologies

Second Screen:
 Award Modular BIOS v4.50G, An Energy Star Ally
 Copyright (C) 1984-94, Award Software, Inc.
 #401A0-0101
 11/23/94-SiS-496-497-PVI-4SP3-00

BIOS Setup Screen:
 ROM PCI/ISA BIOS (PVI-4SP3)
 CMOS SETUP UTILITY
 AWARD SOFTWARE, INC.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-26-2000, 12:12 AM
Take the BIOS ID string, 11/23/94-SiS-496-497-PVI-4SP3-00 to my site, posted below, and look up the links to identify it and see if you can find a manual. If the site is down, I can't access it tonight, go to Trish's Escape from Hardware Hell (http://www.hardwarehell.com) and you'll find the links in the Motherboard/BIOS section. If you can find a manual, it might have some moreinfo. I can't tell much from the BIOS info you posted...on most 486 boards though, you'll find they have an 8GB maximum drive size limitation. Some earlier ones would only handle 540MB. Most of the 486 boards that have 72 pin memory will handle the larger size.


------------------
If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-26-2000, 01:58 AM
Paleo Pete,

thanks heaps for all that. I have actually already been to Wim Bervoets' BIOS Information Site (their info below), according to which I have an ASUS motherboard (with a SiS chipset?). I have tried Award & Phoenix, who supplied the BIOS, to get a BIOS update & manual. But they tell me to try ASUS, who supplied the motherboard. Because OEMs tweak the BIOS Award & Phoenix won't comment about it at all. I have tried ASUS, but they seem unwilling to answer my emails. I will keep trying though.

I have actually updated the Hard Drive that was originally with the DX4: a Seagate ST3660A 520MB running at 3800RPM, with an Average Access Time of 14MS. As 2nd hand 2GB HDs are in short supply here I picked up two Seagate ST51080A 1.0GB HDs running at 5400RPM, with an Average Access Time of 10.5MS. I noticed a huge leap in performance when I installed these, almost as big an improvement as when I upgraded from 16MB to 32MB RAM.

An 8GB BIOS limitation (I run Win98SE-so there should be no OS limitations) will still be fine, as it allows me to procure a Seagate ST36810A Barracuda ATA 6.8GB running at 7200RPM, with an Average Access Time of 7.6MS for $US125.00 & I can live with that!
www.Wim (http://www.Wim) Bervoets' BIOS Information Site
=======================================
ASUS motherboard numbers:
All Asus BIOS ID numbers at the top of the screen, just above where the system memory count occurs, contain # 401A0 - XXXX.

The A0 indicates ASUS as the manufacturer the four digits following the dash indicates the BIOS revision level. Thus it is easy to identify whether or not you have the latest BIOS version or not.

At the bottom of the same screen you have more information, in the following order; A date, which is the date of the motherboard manufacture, then the Chipset used, the model of ASUS motherboard and finally the revision of the motherboard.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-26-2000, 02:29 AM
The drive size limitation is related to the motherboard and chipset, not the Operating System...True, Windows after 95B will handle any size drive, theoretically at least, but the board/chipset itself will not.

Rhetorical I guess though, since you seem to be decided on a 6.8GB drive, which should be sufficient. Let's just hope the board will support the newer drive specs, that I'm not sure about. It was made when the ATA 33 spec was industry standard. 7200 rpm shouldn't be a problem, and should have very good access time.

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-26-2000, 03:30 AM
Paleo Pete,

shouldn't u be asleep?

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-26-2000, 11:00 AM
Look who's talking!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Finally cashed it in about 4 am, had one of those nights I hate when no matter what, I can't go to sleep. Woke up at 4:45, took over an hour to get back to sleep...

Been a borderline insomniac since I was knee high to a duck...Never could sleep before daylight till I was over 30. Talk about hell making it through school!! Awake till 3 AM or so, and they'd drag me out of bed (sometimes literally) at 6 to get ready for school. I have no idea how I managed to still ace every test I ever took, although I refused to do homework, book reports, essays, etc and almost flunked out of high school as a result...The teacher's nightmare, never EVER made lower than 90 on any test, and about to flunk out...could pass the finals after 4 weeks in any grade, and could barely keep my eyes open past 10AM...I think I even answered the teacher's questions in my sleep on occasion...knew the principal's office better than my bedroom...lol

Now I manage to sleep nights, but only part of the time. I was awake yesterday at 6AM, took a 5 or 6 mile walk along the lake bank, mowed about a half acre and stacked up a brush pile 5' high. Should have been gone early, but noooo....now I feel like a zombie...

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-27-2000, 10:24 AM
I just realised something re my current Hard Drives setup. I followed the recommendations outline by Charles in The PC Guide. My primary HD has the OS, applications & data. Whilst the secondary HD has a permanent Virtual Memory Swap File in the first partition & my data backups in the second partition.

But when it was set up for me it was set as a master/slave relationship. After reading comments by Charles: “IDE channels can't access both drives on the channel simultaneously” & in 3D Spotlight: “Ideally you will be able to place your Swapfile onto a separate hard drive, on a separate IDE channel (Do not put 2 hard drives on the same IDE channel).”

If they are in a master/slave relationship does this mean that they are on the same IDE channel? If so, how do I shift them?

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-27-2000, 11:12 PM
Yes, if they are set as Master and Slave, that means they are plugged into the same cable (same IDE channel). To change it you would have to remove the Slave, and plug it into the secondary IDE channel, and set it as Master. Check the jumper settings on the other drive too, sometimes they are set as Master with Slave, or Primary in a dual drive system. Inthat case you'll have to set it as Single Drive.

The CD ROM is probably on the Secondary IDE channel, you'll also have to set it as Slave to the hard drive. Don't put the CD ROM on the Primary IDE channel, as Slave to the Primary hard drive, it will slow down the system.

Watch the colored stripe on the cable, it has to correspond to the # 1 pin on the controller. (In case you don't already know.)

You can find drive documentation on the net if you don't have the jumper settings for your drives, check my site below, and you can find links there to drive info. I would say check the top link, Trish's, first. It's an old favorite.

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-28-2000, 11:24 AM
“The CD ROM is probably on the Secondary IDE channel, you'll also have to set it as Slave to the hard drive. Don't put the CD ROM on the Primary IDE channel, as Slave to the Primary hard drive, it will slow down the system”.

My system came with a ViewSonic 6E Monitor, a Diamond Multimedia Kit 5000 version 1.0 (1994) & a TEAC CD-55A quad speed CD-ROM Drive. The CD-ROM interfaces with the Diamond MMK (I believe that this was common at the time it was put out).

“check my site below, and you can find links there to drive info. I would say check the top link, Trish's, first”.

I’ve tried your site & Trish’s & found them most helpful. Thanks again.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-28-2000, 10:58 PM
Ok, that would mean it's a Panasonic interface, not ATAPI...Panasonic connects through the sound card controller. I have two, one is in a working Packard Bell P-60, the other is in a box as a stand-by in case the one in use decides to say bye bye...both 2X...Hope I can find a spare sound card someday.

and you're welcome. Glad you got some use out of the site. And it just passed up 1000 hits!! COOL!! I'm glad people are using it, don't care much about hits, I don't get a penny out of it, just like to see that it's being used. I guess I could put some money-click banners on it, but since I HATE those things, I refuse to put them on my site. The geocities pop-up is bad enough...

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-29-2000, 05:51 AM
"Ok, that would mean it's a Panasonic interface, not ATAPI...Panasonic connects through the sound card controller."

Very good. Go to the top of the class.:-)

1000 hits on your site & 200 posts here for the much coveted title of "Aspirant Master Geek". Gold. OLYMPIC GOLD here. That’s for sure.

And now for the bad news. As I now run Win98SE & not Win95B & the floppy disk that held my Diamond Multimedia Kit 5000 software has become corrupt I contacted Diamond, to download a copy of the original MM Kit, only to be told the following:

“Thank you for contacting Diamond Legacy Product Support.
All of the files for the MMK 5000 are located here:
ftp://ftp.diamondmm.com/pub/multimedia/mmkits/MMK5000/
This includes driver files. Keep in mind that this kit is not compatible
with anything above Win95. You may be able to do a minimal install of Win95 drivers and operate with minimal performance under 98. I would suggest upgrading the components of your MMK.”

Arggggg...so if I have to upgrade my MM Kit...Grrrrr you may have yourself a sound card. The 4x CD-ROM would be too heavy I imagine to post, but the sound card might be ok. Let me know if you want it & are willing to pay the postage, it will be of no use to me as I don't intend to return to 95B.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-29-2000, 09:54 AM
I hate it when that happens!! I never would have guessed it wouldn't be supported by win98, that's a real bummer...

I'd be glad to cover postage, I just had a CPU shipped here, it was under $2. (Cyrix 6x86 133 runs at 110MHZ, should make a great Win 3.11 machine.) A sound card should be about the same. CD ROM shouldn't be more than $3-4, weigh it and see, and let me know. They'll weigh it and tell you the cost free. I'm real close to broke right now, but might be able to handle it...

Wish I had a working ATAPI CD ROM around here, I'd swap you, but both of the ones I have refuse to work no matter what I do. They're about to go to the dump...

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-29-2000, 12:39 PM
Paleo Pete,

mind if I call u Paleo for short? Australians tend to abbreviate everything. For example barbecue becomes Barbie; Christmas becomes Chrissie & Rockhampton becomes Rockie. Also we like to run words together into one long word to save time & energy. Consider the way an American might hail a buddy if they were to meet them during his/her daily meanderings "Greetings & salutations my long term friend. How are you progressing in life’s pilgrimage?".

This, in Aussie lingo, would translate to "Giddaymatehowsitgoen". Note the speed & functionality such brevity allows. It also means u don’t have to open your mouth for as long. The advantage of this being that there is less chance of accidentally swallowing half a dozen dirty great blowies (blow flies). As u can see, there is indeed method in our madness!

Actually not real flush myself. But we should be able to work out something, if it is not too many dollars all up. Actually good technical advice is probably worth more to me than money at the moment, so maybe we can trade there. You trade me your knowledge & time & I'll ship u a Diamond Multimedia Kit 5000 v.1.0 (1994) & a TEAC CD-55A quad speed CD-ROM Drive. If you have Win95 or lower the Diamond Legacy Support Site files & drivers will work fine. Can we transfer further discussions on buy/sell/trade to our private email? U should still have mine & I have yours. So we can discuss it further there.

I have heard through other US posters that legacy HDs; video cards, sound cards etc can be difficult to pick up in the States. But they are still readily available here, so we may be able to set up an export/import business. 2nd hand goods don’t attract import duty here. We could end up Billionaires. Bill Gates eat your hear out.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-29-2000, 10:17 PM
Sounds pretty good, but I didn't realize you were in Australia. Shipping might be just a tad expensive...I'm running Win 3.11 on the machine I'd be using the hardware for, no problem there, but if it's going to go halfway around the world, I think we both might find it advantageous to let it stay in your country...check on it, we'll see...I'll send you a note by email, mine's not posted on the forum.

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-30-2000, 01:33 AM
Paleo,
as Big Arnie would say: "No Problemo!!!"

Catch u in the email.

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

P.S.
U know it’s the Olympics when the alternative TV stations replay Saturday night movies such as "Pretty Woman" & "The Dream Team".

Son of Zeus
09-30-2000, 02:19 AM
Well finally may have found some information on my i486DX4-S/100MHz on the ASUS Web Site, which I have posted below. Touch wood I have the right motherboard specs!!! Gave up on waiting for their Tech Support to return my emails & actually stumbled across this info by mistake.

So, although slightly sidetracked there for awhile, I can now resume trying to determine the best RAM & HD (& sadly, perhaps Diamond MMK) upgrades for my system.

In a previous post Charles asked: “What's the interface type of the hard disk controller? PCI or VLB? If it's ISA, fahgettaboudit.” As Charles is occupied elsewhere can anyone else answer Charles question as I don’t have a clue? Is the interface type of the hard disk controller ISA? Any takers?

ASUS PVI-486SP3 MAINBOARD SPECIFICATIONS
========================================
Processor (On Board Intel Socket 3, White Socket):
 Intel DX4 - 100MHz (P24C, DC 3.45V);
 Intel i486 DX2/DX/SX, 487SX and 486 OverDrive Processor (P23T);
 AMD Am486 DX/DX2/DX4 25-100MHz;
 UMC Green CPU-U5S 25-40MHz.

Coprocessor:
 Internal Coprocessor of Intel DX4, 486DX, 486DX2, 487SX and
486 OverDrive (P23T).

Chipset:
 SiS 85C496 & 85C497 PCI Chipset;
 SMC 37C665GT ISA Multi-I/O Chip.

Cache Memory:
 128KB/256KB/512KB for option.

System Memory:
 Two 72-pin SIMM Sockets Support 1MB to 128MB;
 Use 1/2/4/8/16/32/64MB 72-pin DRAM Module with 70ns Fast Page Mode.

On Board Super I/O:
 1 Floppy Port (2.88MB);
 2 Serial Ports (16550 Fast UART Compatible);
 1 Parallel Port (ECP, EPP Port).

On Board IDE:
 2 x 32-bit Local Bus Enhanced-IDE ports (up to 4 IDE devices);
 Support PIO Mode 3.

Expansion Slots:
 2 32-bit PCI slots;
 1 PCI/VL shared slot;
 3 16-bit ISA slots.

BIOS:
 Award 486 PCI BIOS and NCR PCI SCSI BIOS;
 Flash EPROM (for option).

Board Size:
Half Size PCB, 22cm x 26cm (8.7" x 10.2").

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

Paleo Pete
09-30-2000, 08:48 AM
Look at the Onboard IDE section, it answers your question. It's Enhanced IDE or EIDE as it's also known. This means it will support large hard drives, up to 6 or maybe 8GB in size. Personally, I'd go with 2-4GB drives...

Also pay attention to the Memory section, it's Fast Page Mode.

The one shared ISA/PCI slot referred to means the middle slots are shared. If you use the last PCI slot, next to the ISA, it disables the ISA slot beside it and vice versa.

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Son of Zeus
09-30-2000, 11:02 AM
Paleo Pete,

I think I could kiss u!!! Knew the good ole faithful DX4/100 wouldn't let me down. And all those legacy detractors out there said it couldn't be done with a 486. U little beauty!!! Aussie, Aussie, Aussie!!! Oi, Oi, Oi!!! Olympic Gold, Gold, Gold!!! Oi, Oi, Oi!!!

Sorry...got carried away with the currently very contagious Olympic Fever. I'm afraid that in the last two weeks this fever, beginning in Sydney, has swept up the Eastern Coast of Australia, over the Northern Territory, down the Western Seaboard, across the Great Ocean Bite (home to the largest population of Great White Sharks in the world), across the Southern States & back to its origin: the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games.

And what a great couple of weeks this virus has bought us all Down Under. But the party is almost over & everyone will be going home soon. Indeed this Sunday has been declared "Sad Sunday" nationwide as it brings with it the Closing Ceremony, the end of the Olympics, & the end of "The Dream".

But the DX4/100 upgrades will continue & who knows Paleo Pete they may even see the winging of a Diamond Multimedia 5000 Kit v.1.0 (1994) & a TEAC CD-55A quad speed CD-ROM Drive the USA way. Who knows? We can all dream I say.

Will keep u posted. And as Big Arnie would say: "I’ll be back!!!"

Cheers.......Son of Zeus.

P.S.
Also noticed that my BIOS natively supports LBA so hopefully should make it to 8GB ok. I want a new, Year 2000 HD, but don’t know of any in the 2-4GB range in current production. But I will use PartitionMagic to cut it up. Only really interested in the first 4GBs anyway as the last half of a drive is so slow compared to the first half it drags down your performance levels.

Paleo Pete
09-30-2000, 11:23 PM
OK, so it's EIDE and the BIOS supports LBA, so you should be all set...good luck with it, hope it works out well.

And yes, Paleo or Pete for short is cool with me...I sometimes even answer to "Hey stupid!!"

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If you had everything...Where would you put it?

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)