Graphics Corruption - Caused by Motherboard?

[Wunderbear]

Hello. I have a problem with my computer.

I am currently running my computer with no graphics card. This is because of this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/cheeseweasel/MoreBugs.jpg

This started around May of this year. It started occuring in 3D games. The grpahics corruption screwed up 3D games, but once on the desktop everything worked normally but for the corruption. I believed it was the Graphics Card (An Abit Radeon 9600SE) and after an exchange in emails, sent it back to the sellers Dabs for repairs.
While it was gone, my step-dad lent me a spare graphics card to use, an Nvidia 5200. When we installed that card, the Mobo wouldn't recognise it. We reinstalled Windows XP; the same thing happened. Finally, we transferred the components to a spare motherboard, and it recognised the 5200.
When the 9600SE came back, it worked fine. However, after a while, (around September) it started to screw up again on 3D games. I concluded that it (The graphics card) was struggling on the 3D games. So I installed and played some 2D games, (RA2 and Baldur's Gate). These worked fine, until recently, when they began to screw up too. So I stopped playing games.
However, yesterday, the graphics corruption occured on the desktop. This would occur when it started up XP (As soon as I logged on). So I switched off the graphics card.

BUT. Last night, the graphics corrupted with no grpahics card. (I was dong something 3d at the time, so it was a silly thing to do) So this means that it's the motherboard's problem.

What I want to know is:

Why is this happening?
Can it be fixed? (If so, how?)
And why did it happen on two separate Motherboards? (How can I prevent it happening again?)

My motherboard specs:

SiSoftware Sandra

System
Manufacturer : VIA Technologies, Inc.
Model : KT400-8235
ID : FFFFFFFF-FFFFFFFF-FFFFFFFF-FFFFFFFF

Mainboard
MP Support : 1 CPU(s)
MPS Version : 1.10
Model : KT400-8235
System BIOS : 04/24/2003-KT400-8235-MS8147C-00

System Memory Controller
Location : Mainboard
Error Correction Capability : None
Number of Memory Slots : 3
Maximum Installable Memory : 768MB
Bank0/1 - A0 : DIMM 256MB
Bank2/3 - A1 : DIMM 256MB
Bank4/5 - A2 : DIMM 256MB

Chipset 1
Model : VIA Technologies Inc VT8377 Apollo KT400/A/600 CPU to PCI Bridge
Bus(es) : ISA AGP PCI IMB USB i2c/SMBus
Front Side Bus Speed : 2x 133MHz (266MHz data rate)
Maximum FSB Speed / Max Memory Speed : 2x 166MHz / 2x 200MHz
Width : 64-bit
IO Queue Depth : 4 request(s)

Chipset 1 Hub Interface
Type : V-Link
Width : 8-bit
Full Duplex : Yes
Multiplier : 1/1x
Speed : 8x 66MHz (528MHz data rate)
IO Queue Depth : 9 request(s)

Logical/Chipset 1 Memory Banks
Bank 0 : 256MB DDR-SDRAM 2.5-3-3-6 2CMD
Bank 2 : 256MB DDR-SDRAM 2.5-3-3-6 2CMD
Bank 4 : 256MB DDR-SDRAM 2.5-3-3-6 2CMD
Bank Interleave : 4-way
Speed : 2x 133MHz (266MHz data rate)
Multiplier : 1/1x
Width : 64-bit
Power Save Mode : No
Fixed Hole Present : No

APIC 1
Version : 0.03
Speed : 16MHz
Multiplier : 1/2x
Maximum Interrupts : 24
IRQ Handler Engaged : Yes
Enhanced Support : Yes

Memory Module 1
Model : 32MX64U-33B
Serial Number : 02120425
Type : 256MB DDR-SDRAM
Technology : 8x(32Mx8)
Speed : PC2700U 2.5-3-3-7
Date of Manufacture : 25 December 1999
Set Timing @ 167MHz : 2.5-3-3-7
Set Timing @ 133MHz : 2.0-2-2-6

Memory Module 2
Manufacturer : Nanya
Model : NT256D64S88B0G-75B
Type : 256MB DDR-SDRAM
Technology : 8x(32Mx8)
Speed : PC2100U 2.5-3-3-6
Date of Manufacture : 13 August 2003
Set Timing @ 133MHz : 2.5-3-3-6
Set Timing @ 100MHz : 2.0-2-2-5

Memory Module 3
Manufacturer : Nanya
Model : NT256D64S88B0G-75B
Type : 256MB DDR-SDRAM
Technology : 8x(32Mx8)
Speed : PC2100U 2.5-3-3-6
Date of Manufacture : 13 August 2003
Set Timing @ 133MHz : 2.5-3-3-6
Set Timing @ 100MHz : 2.0-2-2-5

Environment Monitor 1
Model : ITE IT8705/12 ISA
Mainboard Specific Support : No

Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 40.0°C / 104.0°F
CPU Temperature : 75.0°C / 167.0°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 35.0°C / 95.0°F

Cooling Device(s)
Auto Fan Speed Control : No
Chassis Fan Speed : 3835rpm
CPU Fan Speed : 2482rpm

Voltage Sensor(s)
CPU Voltage : 1.63V
Aux Voltage : 3.01V
+3.3V Voltage : 2.54V
+5V Voltage : 4.38V
+12V Voltage : 12.85V
Standby Voltage : 2.61V
Battery Voltage : 3.06V

AGP Bus(es) on Hub 1
Version : 3.05
Speed : 8x 66MHz (528MHz data rate)
Multiplier : 1/2x
Fast-Writes Enabled : No
Isochronous Mode Enabled : No
Addressing Enabled : 32-bit
Aperture Size : 128MB

PCI Bus(es) on Hub 1
Version : 2.10
Number of Bridges : 1
PCI Bus 0 : PCI (33MHz)
Multiplier : 1/4x

LPC Hub Controller 1
Model : Elitegroup Computer Sys VT8235 PCI to ISA Bridge
ACPI Power Management Enabled : Yes
Multiplier : 1/4x
Speed : 8MHz
DMA Multiplier : 1/2x
DMA Speed : 4MHz

USB Controller 1
Model : Elitegroup Computer Sys VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All VIA Chipsets)
Version : 1.10
Interface : UHCI
Channels : 2
Speed : 48MHz
Supported Speed(s) : Low (1.5Mbps) Full (12Mbps)
Legacy Emulation Enabled : No

USB Controller 2
Model : Elitegroup Computer Sys VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All VIA Chipsets)
Version : 1.10
Interface : UHCI
Channels : 2
Speed : 48MHz
Supported Speed(s) : Low (1.5Mbps) Full (12Mbps)
Legacy Emulation Enabled : No

USB Controller 3
Model : Elitegroup Computer Sys VT82xxxxx UHCI USB 1.1 Controller (All VIA Chipsets)
Version : 1.10
Interface : UHCI
Channels : 2
Speed : 48MHz
Supported Speed(s) : Low (1.5Mbps) Full (12Mbps)
Legacy Emulation Enabled : No

USB Controller 4
Model : Elitegroup Computer Sys VT6202 USB 2.0 Enhanced Host Controller
Version : 2.00
Specification : 1.00
Interface : EHCI
Channels : 6
Companion Controllers : 3
Supported Speed(s) : Low (1.5Mbps) Full (12Mbps) High (480Mbps)
Addressing Support : 32-bit
Legacy Emulation Enabled : No

System SMBus Controller 1
Model : VIA VT823x SMBus
Advanced TCO Mode Enabled : No
Slave Device Enabled : No
PEC Support : No
Speed : 16kHz

Expansion Slot(s)
PCI0 (1h) : PCI 32-bit +5V PME Full-Length Available (VIA Technologies Inc ProSavageDDR P4X333 CPU to AGP 2.0/3.0 Bridge)
PCI1 (2h) : PCI 32-bit +5V PME Full-Length Used
PCI2 (3h) : PCI 32-bit +5V PME Full-Length Available
PCI3 (4h) : PCI 32-bit +5V PME Full-Length Available
AGP (8h) : AGP 32-bit +5V Full-Length Available (Abit Computer Corp Radeon 9600 (RV350))

Port Connector
PRIMARY IDE : None - ATA / None
SECONDARY IDE : None - ATA / None
FDD : 8251 FIFO - Floppy Disk / None
COM1 : Serial Port 16450 - 9 Pin Dual Inline / DB-9 pin male
COM2 : Serial Port 16450 - 9 Pin Dual Inline / DB-9 pin male
LPT1 : Parallel Port ECP/EPP - DB-25 pin female / DB-25 pin female
Keyboard : Keyboard - PS/2 / PS/2
PS/2 Mouse : Mouse - PS/2 / PS/2
USB : USB - None / None
AUDIO : Audio - None / None

Performance Tips
Tip 2530 : MPS 1.4 or later is recommended for MP systems. Check BIOS version.
Notice 224 : SMBIOS/DMI information may be inaccurate.
Warning 2508 : All memory slots are full. Upgrading the memory may be difficult or expensive.
Warning 100 : Large memory sizes should be made of Registered/Buffered memory.
Tip 2546 : Large memory modules should be ECC/Parity.
Tip 2 : Double-click tip or press Enter while a tip is selected for more information about the tip.



Help... Please!

[ski]

If there's no video card installed in the AGP slot, then you have to be using the video adapter built into the MB, and the MB being the cause is a logical assumption.
Check the MB's capacitors for signs of leaking, bulging, or rupturing. If any of these are noticed, then replace the MB.

I also see 2 other things that may be cause for concern:
(1) The CPU temperature of 75 C is way too high. It should not be higher than 60 C at full load. Check this temp in BIOS, since the readings there are more reliable than those from a monitoring program.
If BIOS also reads 75 C, then clean off any dust built up on the CPU's fan and heatsink. If that does not reduce the CPU's temp, then make sure that the heatsink is correctly and securely mounted(it may be a register fit), there are no air gaps between the bottom of the heatsink and the CPU die, and the CPU socket's ears are not broken.
If those are ok, then remove the CPU's heatsink, and apply thermal compound(recommend Arctic Silver) if none exists on the heatsink/CPU die interface(If there is a thermal pad, then make sure the plastic covering has been removed from it).
If no luck, then a more powerful CPU cooler(fan/heatsink) may be required.
Also, the system temp of 40 C is on the high side. Remove the computer's cover, and run an external fan. If that cool things down, then your system needs either additional or more powerful fans.

(2) The voltages of 2.54V and 4.38V for the 3.3V and 5.0V legs, respectively, are way too low. If the BIOS gives the same readings, then the power supply is either bad or undersized. Recommend replacing it with a more powerful unit. And get a reliable brand, like Antec or Enermax.

[Wunderbear]

If there's no video card installed in the AGP slot, then you have to be using the video adapter built into the MB, and the MB being the cause is a logical assumption.


The Graphics card is still installed. I just removed the drivers.

And thanks for the other tips. I'll check these.

[saphalline]

Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 40.0°C / 104.0°F
CPU Temperature : 75.0°C / 167.0°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 35.0°C / 95.0°FHoly $#^&!!! :eek: I can't believe your system is still alive! If those are idle temps, I shudder to think what full load on games must have been like for your system. In short, you've been melting your vid cards! I'm surprised your processor hasn't melted yet. You must have a slower Thoroughbred AthlonXP in there, huh? Then again, with all that graphical corruption, it's possible that your CPU is dying, too.

You don't have any case fans in that system, do you?

After running your system at those temps for months and months, I can barely hazzard a guess as to which components are still any good. Your vid card is definitely fried - graphical artifacts are usually a sign that the vid card's RAM is overheating or bad, overheating in your case. The mobo may still be good, but only testing will prove that. The CPU is questionable. The PSU, like ski said, is a goner.

[Wunderbear]

Holy $#^&!!! :eek: I can't believe your system is still alive! If those are idle temps, I shudder to think what full load on games must have been like for your system. In short, you've been melting your vid cards! I'm surprised your processor hasn't melted yet. You must have a slower Thoroughbred AthlonXP in there, huh? Then again, with all that graphical corruption, it's possible that your CPU is dying, too.

You don't have any case fans in that system, do you?

After running your system at those temps for months and months, I can barely hazzard a guess as to which components are still any good. Your vid card is definitely fried - graphical artifacts are usually a sign that the vid card's RAM is overheating or bad, overheating in your case. The mobo may still be good, but only testing will prove that. The CPU is questionable. The PSU, like ski said, is a goner.

Thank you for that. :( At least you are honest. I'll check the system temps in BIOS.

[saphalline]

Sorry I was so rough on you, but damn! Those temps are high!

The way I see it, we all learn from our mistakes. I'm thinking you won't be doing that mistake again. ;)

Oh by the way, just so you know for the future, this is what "normal" temps look like:

System Board/Mobo: 30-35C (+ 2-4C at full load)
CPU: 35-40C (+ 10-15C at full load, 50C or more is getting high)

[Wunderbear]

okay. Here are the BIOS thingies:

Temperature: 75C (BAD)
CPU Vcoure = 1.63V
+2.5V = 2.54V
Voltage Battery = 3.21V

CPU Fan = 3835 RPM
CAS Fan (Yurns out I do have one at the back. heh) = 2518RPM

Now tell me what has gone horribly wrong, please.

[saphalline]

Regardless of if you have a fan in the back or not, those temps are waaay too high. My original assessment is still true - you've been melting your hardware.

What kind of case do you have? It looks like it's just not getting enough airflow. Come to think of it, where do you keep the computer itself? Is it being stored away inside a cabinet or something?

[Wunderbear]

For a picture of the case and it's environment, you would do well to look here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54627386@N00/68753536/).

Or just this:

http://static.flickr.com/18/68753536_e9beef66ae.jpg

So it's a bog-standard beiger, with the sides taken off (for access and cooling?). The enclosure is a two-sided affair, however the back opens on to a wall. Not the best place. But as you can see from that pic there is not much space elsewhere, so I place it there. (Also partially (totally) influenced by my stepdad)

[saphalline]

The airflow is non-existent then! :D With the sides taken off, there's no direction for that exhaust fan in the back. So ironically, that fan is doing nothing for your system cooling. :rolleyes: That case also has no spot for a fan up front, or at least there are no vents up front such that a front fan wouldn't do much good. Having the back of the case up against a wall is also a bad idea. There should be 2-3 inches (5-8 cm) minimum between the wall and the back of any computer.

Given the poor cooling potential of the case, it wouldn't do much good to put the sides back on. Get a new case, and PSU. For a small space like that, I'd recommend a case like the Antec Super LANBOY (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129145) which has excellent cooling performance (a 120mm fan in both the front and back). Cream of the crop for cases in tight spaces. It can handle any ATX system and actually has quite a large number of drive bays for its size. For a replacement PSU, probably the Enermax NoiseTaker 420W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103459) because of its convertible 20-pin/24-pin power connector. Or visit your local Fry's or Microcenter or other hardware shop for a high quality ATX 2.0/2.01 PSU at 350W or more.

Once you get the cooling worked out, you can test your hardware to see what's good and what's been melted.

[Wunderbear]

okeys on that.

Cost so far:

Case: £44
PSU: £36
Mobo: £43

I had my eye on this motherboard: AGP and PCI-E good (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=291356). Since i'm getting a new gfx card for Christmas (One that's AGP) This would be a good idea.

Okay, so far, that's £123 (Minus p&p which will be horrendous). Quite good.

Now, I am assuming/hoping that the RAM isn't damaged. This is good, since it's about 768MB (Neat, huh?). The CPU, i'll need a good one. Someone suggested an Athlon 64 CPU. What kind of mid-range ones are there?

Thanks so far. The rebuilding has now commenced.

[Wunderbear]

Just checking - is THIS (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=56769) the same one as your suggestion?

If so, then good. So going by british sites, that means:

PSU (Enermax FMA Series 460W (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=98387)): £50
CASE: £58
Mobo: £43

So that comes to £151.

Ah well. You can't ignore progress. (Or a fried gfx card and motherboard).

So, any ideas on the CPU front?

[saphalline]

Ooh, NO! Bad idea! That mobo sucks! It uses an ULi chipset! Yuck! Oh shoot, it might be too late on the vid card, too, huh? See if you can't return that new AGP vid card you'll be getting. If you want to rebuild the core, go for PCIe all the way. No more AGP. There's no upgrade potential in that. As for your new CPU, if your budget is low, go for a Sempron64. Best gaming performance on the low-end, and it's not too shabby, either.

If you want some ideas on specific parts, check out my sticky (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39018). The vendor and prices are from this side of the pond, but the components themselves are all top-notch. Try to stick as closely to those parts as possible - they were all hand-picked by me to be (among other things) the best of the best for gaming systems. If you can remember just one thing, it should be this: the two most important parts for any computer are the mobo and the PSU.

If you have any other questions, just come on back and ask away! We always enjoy spec'ing out a new system. :D

EDIT - That's the same case, alright. But not the same PSU. Don't get one of the "FMA" versions, it should be a "SFMA 2.0" to ensure ATX 3.0 compliancy. Also, if you check my sticky, you can also see other good PSU's, like the Antec TruePower/SmartPower II series.

[Wunderbear]

Ooh, NO! Bad idea! That mobo sucks! It uses an ULi chipset! Yuck! Oh shoot, it might be too late on the vid card, too, huh? See if you can't return that new AGP vid card you'll be getting. If you want to rebuild the core, go for PCIe all the way. No more AGP. There's no upgrade potential in that. As for your new CPU, if your budget is low, go for a Sempron64. Best gaming performance on the low-end, and it's not too shabby, either.

If you want some ideas on specific parts, check out my sticky (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39018). The vendor and prices are from this side of the pond, but the components themselves are all top-notch. Try to stick as closely to those parts as possible - they were all hand-picked by me to be (among other things) the best of the best for gaming systems. If you can remember just one thing, it should be this: the two most important parts for any computer are the mobo and the PSU.

If you have any other questions, just come on back and ask away! We always enjoy spec'ing out a new system. :D

It sucks? I doubt i'd be able to return the graphics card - it's from my dad, and he believes in the presents being used. Besides, he won't give me the receipt.
I can't not get a motherboard that's AGP, then. But as you said, i'll probably want to get something PCIE in future. So I want, nay, need a mobo that has both.
So any help on finding one that's better (hint - I woudn't be able to afford SLi in a few grillion years) would be much appreciated.

[saphalline]

Great, just great. It never benefits anyone to be sentimental about computer hardware. In 6 months, it's no longer the latest & greatest. In 12 months, it's old news. In 18 months, it's 2 or more generations behind. And since AGP is already old news, it really shouldn't be bought for a new system anymore.

If you can't avoid the new AGP card, I'd almost suggest you stick with an older AGP mobo. AGP and PCIe should definitely NOT be mixed. And for all the gaming systems that I've seen with both slots, there's always something that goes wrong. Especially when you deal with crappy chipsets. *sigh* However, if you want a recommendation from me, the best I can give you is this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813153036). Or if you can possibly find another mobo based off the NForce4-4X chipset with both slots.

I'm not comfortable recommending this course of action, but it's the best I can do for you.

[Wunderbear]

Great, just great. It never benefits anyone to be sentimental about computer hardware. In 6 months, it's no longer the latest & greatest. In 12 months, it's old news. In 18 months, it's 2 or more generations behind. And since AGP is already old news, it really shouldn't be bought for a new system anymore.

If you can't avoid the new AGP card, I'd almost suggest you stick with an older AGP mobo. AGP and PCIe should definitely NOT be mixed. And for all the gaming systems that I've seen with both slots, there's always something that goes wrong. Especially when you deal with crappy chipsets. *sigh* However, if you want a recommendation from me, the best I can give you is this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813153036). Or if you can possibly find another mobo based off the NForce4-4X chipset with both slots.

I'm not comfortable recommending this course of action, but it's the best I can do for you.

I'm not sympathetic towards old computer hardware (i'm a sadist, judging by my comp.). I'm just saying that going up to my easily-stressed dad and saying "oh, thanks for the graphics card, i'm going to return it now, may I have the receipt" would NOT be a healthy cause of action. I like my hearing.

Plus, i'm sure mine (Here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157081) on Newegg) seems to have a better overall response than the suggestion (Thank you anyway, appreciated).

I'm sure that if I could get a receipt, than I would change it. However, my dad is the kind who does not like the sudden changes/returns. (Neither do I; it seems a little brattish and unthanking. However, i'm neurotic.) By the way, the card I reckon i'm getting is a Rad. 9800 Pro/XT, or something else which i'm not sure about. (I think I stressed at the time I asked him that it must be AGP; i didn't/don't have PCI Express)

So. What about on the CPU front (just suggesting I get the board I suggested)?

I did find this: AMD Athlon 64 3000+ (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Socket_939_cpus.html). Cost? £106. Ouch.

[Wunderbear]

Another forumite on a different forum (HERE (http://forums.techguy.org/hardware/426699-graphics-corruption-problem-graphics-card-2.html?posted=1#post3225534)) suggested it might be due to my CPU overheating. Now as much as I want to believe this, i'm assuming this is wrong. Right? (What i'm assuming is wrong is that if I can lower the temp on my CPU, it'll fix le problem. Wrong, right?)

But oh how I wish it was right...

[master_tech05]

If i was you ,, I justo turn it OFF and wait for a few minutes after it cools down turn it back ON go to the bios setup and stay there just to see how the temperature change on the CPU,, to that's the main problem

[saphalline]

Very well. Looks like that mobo has good reviews, but I'm still not willing to fully trust that chipset. Mixing technologies in my experience is never a good thing. However, I understand your circumstances being what they are. And it is your money and your new computer, after all.

The CPU choice could end up being a sore spot, I'm afraid. The A64 3000+ is actually the cheapest and slowest CPU for Socket 939. Whatever price it's at, that's what you'll have to pay. That's the only downside right now to Socket 939 - the price of admission is high. ;)

An overheating CPU doesn't cause graphical corruptions. If a CPU gets too hot and starts doing miscalculations, things crash. Games, programs, even Windows. So basically, if it were just a problem with an overheating CPU, your games would crash and your computer would randomly reboot. Graphical corruptions are the fault of the vid card. If the vid card does a miscalculation, it's not system critical, it just makes your display look funky. It is perhaps possible that your vid card is fine and your mobo instead is the one that's damaged, but not likely. Vid cards fail before mobo's. I'm afraid your hot CPU is the least of your system's problems. Or rather I should say, if it were me, I wouldn't trust any of that hardware anymore. Not for a main system, and certainly not for gaming.

Hmmm... interesting responses on the other forum. I suppose it would be possible to slowly replace parts and see what works and what doesn't. That would be a fun project (fun for me :p) but it would be a lot of work on your end. If you were to go that route, I would suggest pulling your computer out of the desk and aiming a house fan over it while you test parts. A large part of the problem with your current system is still airflow and overall cooling. Replacing just the CPU HSF unit (heatsink/fan) wouldn't be enough. Not with the level of graphical corruption that you have.

It's up to you how best to proceed. There are some good suggestions on that other forum, but I still think I'm right about your vid card being fried. Or your mobo, since you've gone through 2 vid cards.

Another thing I should mention is that the cooling set-up you have for your current system would actually have been quite adequate for an older system. Like say a PII 400 system with a TNT2 16MB vid card. But modern systems produce far too much heat to be comfortable with that set-up. As technology has improved, heat output has increased dramatically.

[Wunderbear]

Very well. Looks like that mobo has good reviews, but I'm still not willing to fully trust that chipset. Mixing technologies in my experience is never a good thing. However, I understand your circumstances being what they are. And it is your money and your new computer, after all.

The CPU choice could end up being a sore spot, I'm afraid. The A64 3000+ is actually the cheapest and slowest CPU for Socket 939. Whatever price it's at, that's what you'll have to pay. That's the only downside right now to Socket 939 - the price of admission is high. ;)

An overheating CPU doesn't cause graphical corruptions. If a CPU gets too hot and starts doing miscalculations, things crash. Games, programs, even Windows. So basically, if it were just a problem with an overheating CPU, your games would crash and your computer would randomly reboot. Graphical corruptions are the fault of the vid card. If the vid card does a miscalculation, it's not system critical, it just makes your display look funky. It is perhaps possible that your vid card is fine and your mobo instead is the one that's damaged, but not likely. Vid cards fail before mobo's. I'm afraid your hot CPU is the least of your system's problems. Or rather I should say, if it were me, I wouldn't trust any of that hardware anymore. Not for a main system, and certainly not for gaming.

Hmmm... interesting responses on the other forum. I suppose it would be possible to slowly replace parts and see what works and what doesn't. That would be a fun project (fun for me :p) but it would be a lot of work on your end. If you were to go that route, I would suggest pulling your computer out of the desk and aiming a house fan over it while you test parts. A large part of the problem with your current system is still airflow and overall cooling. Replacing just the CPU HSF unit (heatsink/fan) wouldn't be enough. Not with the level of graphical corruption that you have.

It's up to you how best to proceed. There are some good suggestions on that other forum, but I still think I'm right about your vid card being fried. Or your mobo, since you've gone through 2 vid cards.

Another thing I should mention is that the cooling set-up you have for your current system would actually have been quite adequate for an older system. Like say a PII 400 system with a TNT2 16MB vid card. But modern systems produce far too much heat to be comfortable with that set-up. As technology has improved, heat output has increased dramatically.

Ah, no. I haven't gone through 2 video cards- the one I have now is the one that's buggered up twice. But I am concerned with the fact that the same corruption occured with the 'onboard' graphics.

Also, would this other picture provide any other clues/ideas?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/cheeseweasel/VpuProblems.jpg

This happened occasionally. Instead of staying screwed up, it would blank out the screen, and if I had managed to turn the offending game off, it provided that message. Could this mean something wrong with the AGP slot?

Also, someone did just point out that the board's temp seems not so bad, and that it's the CPU that's overheating. Any ideas?

[saphalline]

The CPU is definitely overheating, but with all that graphical corruption with the onboard video, I'm also concerned about the mobo. I think it got damaged. As for the "VPU Recovery error" that only happens when an ATI vid card crashes due to stability problems. Since you didn't OC it, the only other cause would be overheating.

Try blowing a fan into the system as run the computer normally. See if that fixes anything.

[Wunderbear]

Okay, i'll try that when I get home.

(And probably stay like it until I can raise the necessary funds for the new parts, £250)

[Wunderbear]

Also, just a question, but:

Case (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=225527)

Would this case be better or worse than the Lanboy?

[saphalline]

Hey, that's a pretty good case! :D About the same as the LANBOY, but with that case you'll have to buy another 120mm for the back exhaust. Not such a bad thing considering the price, though. And fans are cheap enough.

[Wunderbear]

I could possibly transfer the fan on the current case. (All the luck it's done me so far; I was uncertain about the effects of leaving the sides off of the case)

Anyway. Even if I did use a house fan (or two) on my computer, would it be a bad idea to continue using it?

Also, another thing. Between the time it failed again and now, I decided to take out and put back in the gpu, to recreate what happened last time (when the spare card wasn't recognised by the old motherboard (That's something; the spare never corrupted once)). I didn't have a spare, but I thought it would be the same thing. Anyway, I took it out, dusted it and the computer with some canned air, and put it back in. Started up, the mobo still recognised it.
I installed and played a 3D game, expecting it to corrupt. But it didn't. So for a few weeks I played some 3D games (UT2004, HL2, etc.) but a few weeks later, it corrupted again. I tried taking it out, dusting it and putting back in, but it still corrupted.

Might this story bring any ideas or observations?

[saphalline]

The dust prevented the vid card from being recognized that specific time. I've seen dust create a lot of problems over the years, as well as oxidation. Dusting regularly is all part of hardware maintenance.

Later, heat became the problem again. Ever since you built that computer, heat has been a problem. I'd suggest you fix it soon. Whatever you do, just do something. Fans, water pumps, liquid nitrogen, whatever - just do something to cool that thing.

[Wunderbear]

Well, i'm home, and i've aimed a housefan at the motherboard. I'm not there's much of a difference though:


Board Temperature : 33.0°C / 91.4°F
CPU Temperature : 72.0°C / 161.6°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 34.0°C / 93.2°F


Has it made any difference so far? (I've been running the thing for about 20 mins. Is that enough time to make any difference?)

Also, how much damage will occur to the components like RAM, PCI cards, USB-connected components, etc.? I plan to replace the Mobo, CPU, PSU and Case anyway, so will it do damage to things like the Hard Disk?

[Wunderbear]

Two things i've just thought of:

What two things can I replace first (let's say a budget of about £60-£100) and not have them damaged by other possibly defective parts?

Also, if my motherboard temp is fine, then how do the damages occur?

Sorry, I am stupid and require clarification. Thanks. :confused:

[saphalline]

Hmmm... your mobo temp dropped down to normal, but what's wrong with your CPU temp?? It should have dropped by at least 15C with a house fan blowing into your case. You know, I don't think the HSF unit on the CPU is properly installed. There's no reason that temp shouldn't have come down by a lot! Is that the HSF unit that came with the CPU? How did you install it exactly?

The graphical corruptions are annoying, so I would think the new vid card would fix that. With the house fan blowing into the case, and with the old vid card, do you still see those graphical corruptions? Ok, before you start replacing parts, let's address the issue of the CPU temp. It's very high even after a house fan blowing into the case, so something is wrong there. If we can get that under control, and see how a lower CPU temp affects the system's condition, we can figure out where to go next.

[ski]

Check that the CPU's heatsink is correctly and securely mounted, there are no air gaps between the heatsink and the CPU die, the heatsink's metal hold down clamps are not broken or loose, and the CPU socket clamp ears are not broken.

If those are ok, then make sure that there is thermal compound on the heatsink-CPU interface.
If a thermal pad is used, then make sure that its clear plastic protective cover was removed.

[Wunderbear]

Okay, thanks so far.

Two things I want to check before I twiddle with the CPU:

Which way should the air be flowing with the HS Fan?

and can I check there is thermal compound on the CPU without removing it? I have none handy.

I would like it if these questions were answered quickly so I could hop to it.

Also, I have no spare card. Which is why I haven't been playing games.

[ski]

You're welcome.

That's a good question regarding the CPU fan's airflow direction. It normally blows air into the heatsink.

Because the CPU die is normally a lot smaller than the bottom of the heatsink, and with capacitors, etc., blocking the view, it's extremely difficult to see if thermal compound or a thermal pad exists without removing the heatsink. And removing the heatsink messes up the existing compound or pad making it necessary to apply new compound.
If you do not have any, then you should be able to get some from either a local computer repair shop or computer retail store.
Note that all of the existing compound or pad must be removed from the heatsink and CPU die before applying new compound. This can be done by scraping off the excess with a plastic object, like a credit card. Do not use anything made from metal as it will scratch the heatsink surface reducing its heat transfer capacity, and may damage the CPU die. Then, remove any remaining compound/pad with high purity alcohol(91% or higher available at any pharmacy) and a soft cloth.

[Wunderbear]

Thanks! I should go and get some thermal compound in the next couple of days. Either way, the results will most likely be here by tomorrow at the earliest.

Thanks. :)

[Wunderbear]

I haven't done the thermal compoond thing operation yet, but I did 'open 'er up' (figuratively speaking) and dust the HS/F as well as other parts of it (case fan, Gfx card, etc).

System temps as of 10-15 mins running:


Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 31.0°C / 87.8°F
CPU Temperature : 66.0°C / 150.8°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 57.0°C / 134.6°F


Any better?

Also, my stepdad has an idea; get a smaller motherboard that just runs AGP for the time being, and save up for a larger upgrade. Good/Bad idea? He also remarked that the new Intel Celeron D 346 processors would be good in that case.

Would those be good ideas?

Also, concerning a previous message:

The graphical corruptions are annoying, so I would think the new vid card would fix that. With the house fan blowing into the case, and with the old vid card, do you still see those graphical corruptions?

Did I say that the corruptions happened whilst using onboard graphics? (Ie. after I removed the drivers for the graphics card) And if the corruptions are a cause of the motherboard or anything else, would it damage any new card used in the system?

I was running a 3D application on the onboard graphics when it corrupted. This may have been a silly thing to do, but does that throw any light on anything? As well as the fact that I haven't experienced any other corruption since, but neither have I done anything 3D, played any games, or reinstalled the graphics card drivers (still using onboard).

[Wunderbear]

Also, my PSU is a 300W one. Does that shed any light?

[saphalline]

CompUSA and MicroCenter both have Arctic Silver, so look there first. I would recommend buying some. It always comes in handy, and based on that CPU temp I'd say re-do the CPU's heatsink. That temp is too high with a house fan blowing on it to have been done properly. And I'm starting to think that the root cause of all your problems with that system is the overheating CPU.

A mobo with AGP for now sounds good. Socket A mobo's using awesome chipsets like NVidia's NForce2 Ultra 400 (or even the NForce2 400) and VIA's KT600 can be had for really cheap. Like this Biostar M7NCG (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=246410) for about $62 + shipping. Cheaper than a "value" CPU and a darn good mobo. Plus, you could keep all your other hardware. I guess right now I'm only concerned with getting you up and running again! I can't imagine not being able to play games! :eek: One of my favorite quotes is "The only legitimate use for a computer is to play games." :D I don't know who said that, but I always try to live by it! ;) :cool:

300W is OK for what you have now, but you'll need to upgrade to a more powerful ATX 3.0 PSU when you upgrade to a new computer. The latest CPU's and vid cards suck up too much power, to the point where 400W or more is needed.

[Wunderbear]

Okay! Thanks for the motherboard suggestion. I did come into a bit of money over Christmas, so it should be easy to get a motherboard at that price. As you said, it's imperative that I can play games as soon as possible; the copy of Battlefield 2 I got for Christmas isn't going to wait around forever!

One thing i've been trying to find out is the safe running temperatures of my CPU. I know mine's overheating, but I want to know the ideal running temp for my AMD Athlon XP 2400+. I have heard it can run up to 80-90 Degrees C! (his sounds stupidly high) Also, I don't think I've suffered any CPU troubles so far, as said earlier in the thread, CPU problems usually cause more severe symptoms, such as crashes and rebooting, none of which i've suffered.

So i'll redo the thermal compound. I actually did buy some from a local computer shop; Spire Stars 700. Any idea how good/bad that is?

Thanks so far. I think I may just be seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. (although that might just be my pc on fire :eek: )

[Wunderbear]

Also, I might consider getting a couple of new case/CPU fans to keep the thing cooler. Any suggestions? I've heard a company called Delta (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Delta_Fans_58.html) do some good fans. (I'm not bothered by noise level, by the way - it reassures me that the PC is still working)

[pave_spectre]

80-90 Degrees C is getting very close to the melting temp of the CPU.

60 would be considered an absolute maximum for comfort. Generally 40-50 degress C is considered adequate if not spectacularly cool temps.

[Wunderbear]

Me and my stepdad redid the thermal compound today. There was originally a thermal pad on there; we removed that with a petrol-based cleaner and a credit card. We put in the new compound, and the result is after 15 mins of running my temps are:


Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 32.0°C / 89.6°F
CPU Temperature : 56.0°C / 132.8°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 6.0°C / 42.8°F

:D

I've reinstalled the Card, and tried a game or two, just low-spec ones. They work! HALOO! HALAY! OH FRABJIOUS DAY!

However, i won't take this as an example. I will be testing the system (ie. playing HL2) for a few days. If it remains like this, I will say so.

I will still be getting a new motherboard and case fans, of course. But now at least, it works.

Thank you all for your help so far.

[Wunderbear]

#Okay, played a bit of counter strike, and appeared to have a small graphical bug in the form of missing letters, in messages, or in an unfortunate example, the Title Bar (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/cheeseweasel/de_dust0003.jpg). (A bit risque, that pic; don't look if you're offended by naughty words)

I'm looking it up at the mo. But apart from that, no problems so far.

[Wunderbear]

Okay, if I try to start a game on BF 2, it freezes on the menu. GRRR.

[jlreich]

There was originally a thermal pad on there; we removed that with a petrol-based cleaner and a credit card.
You should use alcohol, at least 91% pure. Petrol based cleaners tend to leave a residue and interfere with thermal transfer. I know it doesn't seem like much but it does make a difference.

Although the temp is much better I would say do it again with alcohol. It's still running hotter than it should be. That's just my opinion though, wait for the others to give theirs.

[ski]

Also, what's the status on the PS voltages?

[saphalline]

Ummm, yeah, 80-90C is not just getting close to the CPU melting point, it is the CPU melting point! Most CPU's max out at 75-95C (depending on the specific CPU), and they usually start crashing at around 60-70C. That's why I was surprised that your CPU was still alive and kicking at that intial temp. Anything under 60C is reasonable, and under 50C is considered "comfortable". A good idle temp is below 40C. A great idle temp is below 30C, which a few of our members have actually reached with certain CPU's.

I don't care what you did or how you did it, but a CPU temp drop of 20C is frickin' fantastic! Now that it's down to manageable levels, you can see the increased stability, which is good. That means we're getting somewhere. It's still enormously high for that CPU and the stability isn't perfect, so now the problem lies in either the mobo or the CPU (or possibly both).

At this point I'd recommend buying a "test mobo" to determine what's wrong. Buy a cheap Socket A mobo that you can easily return if necessary. Try using the new mobo with your current hardware to see if the graphical defects go away. (Keep in mind that a new mobo will mean reinstalling the OS, so I hope you have a spare hard drive.) If they do, you're golden. If they don't, return the mobo. That means you need a new CPU, and if you need a new CPU then it would be better to go with a Sempron system (with AGP of course).

[Wunderbear]

Yeah, I will be getting a new motherboard anyway, so I will test it.

Just checking though: if I put my new card in (Actually a Radeon 9800SE), and the bug's still there, would it damage the card?

Also, BF2 DID work later! Just with a couple of graphical bugs. But apart from that and CS:S, no other bugs so far. That counts as a sort-of-win in my books!

Still testing however.

[Wunderbear]

Oh, and for ski:

Voltage Sensor(s)
CPU Voltage : 1.63V
Aux Voltage : 3.20V
+3.3V Voltage : 2.54V
+5V Voltage : 4.81V
+12V Voltage : 12.79V
Standby Voltage : 1.80V
Battery Voltage : 3.06V

[Wunderbear]

Ah, there seems to be a fix for the cOunter-strike problem. It involves deleting the font files and letting them be reinstalled. :D

[Wunderbear]

HOWEVER. I just tried to play Half Life 2 (With a mod called SMOD), it ran for a bit (up to the bit in the train when it parks) and it ctd'd, with this message:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/cheeseweasel/DRIVER.jpg

I searched it in google, and one site had this to say:

In DirectX 9.0, the following happens:

* If D3DERR_DRIVERINTERNALERROR is returned from a Createxxx call, it should not be considered fatal. The driver should treat it similar to a D3DERR_UNSUPPORTED or D3DERR_OUTOFMEMORY error.
* If D3DERR_DRIVERINTERNALERROR happens during 3-D rendering, the runtime returns it at the IDirect3DDevice9::Present call. The application can do one of the following:
o End, with the pop-up window saying that the application cannot continue because of problems in the display adapter and that the user should contact the adapter manufacturer.
o Attempt to restart by calling IDirect3DDevice9::Reset, which is essentially the same path as recovering from a lost device. If IDirect3DDevice9::Reset fails with D3DERR_DRIVERINTERNALERROR, the application should end immediately with the message that the user should contact the adapter manufacturer.

Erk. Shall I install my new graphics card? I'll try another game. (It seems to be failing on games that use Dx 9.0c shader type thingies.

Any help on this (soon) would help.

[ski]

Before swapping out video cards, the 2.54V reading on the 3.3V leg should be addressed since this lower than acceptable voltage may be the cause of the 'Engine Error' message when playing Half Life 2.
What is the make, model, and wattage rating of the existing PS?

[saphalline]

Those voltages definitely look bad. At the very least, you should replace the PSU before trying your new vid card. Voltages like that are sort of "poisoning" your system. Now that the CPU temp is under control, I think the PSU should be addressed next. The good thing is that a high quality PSU is good for any computer and won't need to be upgraded for compatibility or anything (make sure you get an ATX 12V 2.0).

As for the errors, I'm thinking right now that the PSU needs to be replaced before a verdict can be made. PSU problems can look like any number of other problems, so they can be very confusing to diagnose.

[Wunderbear]

Okay then. I should get a new PSU. Anything you suggest? (Providing my current balance is about £30 so far, but I may get more soon)

Also, this error has only occurred on two games; Half-Life 2, and a mod for UT2004 called Soulkeeper. (It uses bloom, so it may be Dx 9) Graphical errors seem only to occur on games using the latest shaders.

I'm going to install the latest drivers for now, see what that does.

[Wunderbear]

Is this one, the Enermax Noisetaker 370W (the second one from the bottom: PSUs (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Enermax_111.html) ) a good one? Hmm?

[ski]

What is the brand and watt rating of the existing PS?

[Wunderbear]

Not sure about the brand, but the max wattage is 300W. (It's an LC-A300ATX)

[ski]

If you're staying with the same setup for a while, then the 370 watt Enermax is a good choice.
But if you plan to upgrade anytime soon, then suggest you go with the 485 watt unit. No sense in buying 2 PS's within a year, right?

[Wunderbear]

Well, i'll probably have this system for a while before a big upgrade anyhoo, so i'll probably get the 370 Watter. But i'll remember the advice.

[saphalline]

The 370W will be perfectly fine. Keep things on the cheap side for now. No sense in spending the extra money for SLI-certified hardware if you'll never be able to afford an SLI system. ;)

[Wunderbear]

Indeed. I don't think I would want SLI anyway for the mo, even if I did have the perfect system for it. Twice the graphics power? More like twice the constant problems.

[saphalline]

More like twice the constant problems.Hahahaaa! Yes, that would probably be true in this case. ;) :D

[Wunderbear]

Bah. I'm getting the little bugs that were present before. Dragged vertexes:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/cheeseweasel/darnit.jpg

This is an old pic, but it explains it. It's only happened on Half Life 2 and Battlefield 2 so far.

Can't wait till I get me new motherboard and PSU. D'you reckon i'll need to get a new processor too? My current one (AMD Athlon XP 2400+) works fine for me, but it's 462 pin. I doubt there's many newish motherboards with that.

[Wunderbear]

Okay...

So it just corrupted. LOTS.

Yeesh. Should I buy the PSU first?

[saphalline]

Should I buy the PSU first?Oh definitely. I wouldn't connect a new mobo to that PSU. That's the equivalent of "poisoning" your new mobo.

PSU first.

[Wunderbear]

Okay then!

Lucky, as I haven't decided on a motherboard yet and it doesn't seem the Biostar you recommended is available in Europe, let alone england.

Here are some sites that are either based in or deliver to England:

Ebuyer (http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?rb=14839000423&action=c2hvd3N1YmNhdGVnb3J5X3BhZ2U=&subcat_uid=265)

Dabs (http://www.dabs.com/productlist.aspx?&NavigationKey=11143&NavigationKey=4294959852&CategorySelectedId=11143&PageMode=1)

Novatech (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/products/a557x1y0z1p0s0n0m0)

I want to know; are any of those Socket A motherboards any good? If you know any european-based sites, go ahead and recommend those. It's just that the delivery to England would probably be immense.

Thanks so far, Wunderbear.

[saphalline]

From our European members, I've heard lots of good things about Dabs. So I guess that would be my choice.

On Dabs, they have the Gigabyte GA-7N400SL for about 33 GBP (inc VAT) and that's a darn good mobo. For a little more penny-pinching, there's the ASRock K7VT4A Pro for less than 26 GBP which would also be fine (but has only two RAM slots). Both the Gigabye mobo and ASRock mobo support Socket A Semprons out-of-the-box, so either way you have a cheap CPU upgrade path. The Socket A Semprons are just re-branded AthlonXP's anyway.

Those two mobo's would be my top picks. While I think the more expensive Gigabyte mobo is superior, I also think that the ASRock mobo would fit your budget better and still be quite good. It's up to you.

[Wunderbear]

The Gigabyte's well within my budget! (About £7 in) That'llk be the one I order then. Dabs was the company that sold us the graphics card (Radeon 9600SE), and I must admit I got a bit irrationally mad at them when it failed! You have to have someone to blame, I suppose.

But good. Thanks! I'll get round to ordering them then.

[saphalline]

You have to have someone to blame, I suppose.Yeah, I usually surreptitiously pick someone in my neighborhood. :p From another street, of course! Then I get angry at them. Inside my house. That way they don't know about it and can't get angry back at me. They don't need to know about the voodoo dolls...

[Wunderbear]

Ah. Indeeeed.

Anyway, I shall get to ordering the PSU first, sometime during the week. (I'm at my dad's for the weekend)

[Wunderbear]

How odd! How queer!

When I started up my computer just now, I left it for about half a minute. When I came back, it was on the screen that usually flits by in the opening seconds. It said, "CMOS Checksum Complete" (It probably usually says this). At the bottom, it had Del for menu, and F1 to continue.
I pressed F1.

It continued. And apart from that, nothing else new has happened so far.

Any ideas?

[saphalline]

That usually only happens when the CMOS has been reset. Have you done anything like that?

[Wunderbear]

Nooooo, I don't think so.

And it hasn't happened again,

Weird.

[saphalline]

The more these issues occur, the more I think your mobo is broken. Your CPU thankfully sounds like it survived, and RAM can survive nearly any beating short of being set on fire :p but I don't think the mobo is any good anymore. On top of that, there's no way to be certain if your vid cards have been melting first or if they've been fried by the mobo all these times.

This is why it's not advisable to hook up a new vid card to that mobo. First replace the PSU and mobo, then you can try the new vid card. And don't forget to back up all your files and stuff. A new mobo will mean reinstalling Windows. Just a reminder there.

[Wunderbear]

Okay. Thanks.

Anyway, I'm going to have to find a couple of CD's to write to, to save my Documents.

[Wunderbear]

Dudes. I need to find out - what would be the best medium for backing up to?

Since My Documents is about 9gb, and I want to back up some other stuff, would you have any idea what would be the best way for going round to it?

[saphalline]

Well, typically I have several hard drives sitting around, but if you don't then you can't do that. :p

You can either try and hunt down a cheap IDE hard drive of sufficient size (80GB drives are usually on sale lately) or you can just get a 50-pack of CD-R's on sale for $20 or so. Personally, I'd go for the pack of CD-R's right now. 50 CD-R's at 700MB each gives you just over 34GB of total storage. 40 cents per CD is a darn good price for a surge of storage.

[Wunderbear]

Well, typically I have several hard drives sitting around, but if you don't then you can't do that. :p

You can either try and hunt down a cheap IDE hard drive of sufficient size (80GB drives are usually on sale lately) or you can just get a 50-pack of CD-R's on sale for $20 or so. Personally, I'd go for the pack of CD-R's right now. 50 CD-R's at 700MB each gives you just over 34GB of total storage. 40 cents per CD is a darn good price for a surge of storage.

Hmm. The Hard Drive idea is a bit interesting; would it damage it if I connected it up though? I'm guessing probably not.

And as for the CD-R idea, it's a more viable one. It'll take a while though. :D
My Pictures folder is about 1.15gb (it's artwork, honestly) and my music one is 3gb (although most of that is probably my sister's; her usb ports don't work because we can't find the driver cd that came with her motherboard, so she sends her music to me and uploads it to her mp3 player on mine).

So that should take a few CD's each. It does sound a bit cheaper though. BUT; if I were to get a cheap hard drive - how would I connect it to the pc? Like the default one?

[jcnoernberg]

youe IDE cable connecting to the hard drive right now should have an extra, unused connector. Just use that and set the jumpers on the new harddrive to slave... or you could always just use a connector from one of your CD-ROMs, as they are the same and its only temporary.

[Wunderbear]

Hey again!

Just calling in to say that i've got in a back-up hard-drive. About 20gb, which is enough, but it was something my stepdad had lying around! So no cost there then!

Just for the sake of the current plan, i'll post the current voltages:


Voltage Sensor(s)
CPU Voltage : 1.63V
Aux Voltage : 3.22V
+3.3V Voltage : 2.54V
+5V Voltage : 4.84V
+12V Voltage : 12.67V
Standby Voltage : 2.28V
Battery Voltage : 2.03V

Any difference?

Thank you again.

[saphalline]

Nah! Usually just adding one hard drive won't break a system. I doubt it will cause problems because in this case your PSU is just cr@ppy quality, not overloaded. Should be fine, especially since hard drives are a lot less sensitive to voltage problems (though they're not immune).

[Wunderbear]

But it is still the PSU/motherboard that's the problem, right?

[Wunderbear]

Okay, update:

Since my world of money is slow-moving, i've almost got enuff for the PSU. I know it's taken a long time, but it'll be werf it. Soon.

Anyway, just got a couple of questions I want to ask:

1. I'm glad i'm getting the necessary components soon, as a familiar problem is starting to creep up again. I call it the spots. Basically, what happens is (it starts in strategy games for some reason) a couple of tiny splotches of colours appear. They'll always be really small, which is why I think that it's affecting individual pixels. Then they'll spread to other games. They'll become more prolific, spreading everywhere until you get this:

http://fs4.deviantart.com/i/2004/235/e/f/call_of_duty_gone_BAAAAD.jpg

That was last time. Then, our solution was to reformat and reinstall. The bad went away. This leads me to believe that it isn't something caused by hardware, but rather something spread by certain games. First time (a long long time before the current heatey/powerty problems started) it began with Black and White. This time, I first saw it in a demo for Rome: Total War.

It hasn't reached THAT stage yet, but in a while, it will. So, would you know what it actually is, if my diagnosis is incorrect?

ALSO:

2. I heard from my step-dad that if I were to get a new motherboard and reformat my HDD, I would have to purchase another copy of Windows XP. Is this true?

If it is, I shall turn into the lower-level demon Bgrahthaklikon, and slay Microsoft. (In my mind)

Well, thanks for any help you may give.

[saphalline]

Oh wow! That's really funky! :p Never quite seen anything that extensive before, but it almost looks like your graphics driver needs a reinstall. Try this:

- Make sure you have your graphics driver install file on your desktop
- Restart your system in Safe Mode (usually by holding down F8 right after the POST beep and choosing "Safe Mode" from the menu)
- Go to Control Panel -> Add/Remove Programs
- Find your display driver in the list and uninstall it (just hit the "Remove" button)
- Once that is done, restart your computer
- Cancel the Add New Hardware Wizard
- Install your graphics driver from the desktop like normal
- Reboot again for good measure

That's the "proper" way to reinstall a graphics driver. See if that does the trick.

As for a new copy of Windows, I don't think that would be necessary. Refresh my memory here - do you have a full retail or OEM version of WinXP on CD? If so, you won't need to buy a new copy. You'll just have to reinstall it and possibly activate it over the phone (M$ will want to know why you're reinstalling it, and they need to verify that only one copy of that particular CD is active at a time, blah blah blah).

[Wunderbear]

Oh wow! That's really funky! :p Never quite seen anything that extensive before, but it almost looks like your graphics driver needs a reinstall. Try this:

- Make sure you have your graphics driver install file on your desktop
- Restart your system in Safe Mode (usually by holding down F8 right after the POST beep and choosing "Safe Mode" from the menu)
- Go to Control Panel -> Add/Remove Programs
- Find your display driver in the list and uninstall it (just hit the "Remove" button)
- Once that is done, restart your computer
- Cancel the Add New Hardware Wizard
- Install your graphics driver from the desktop like normal
- Reboot again for good measure

That's the "proper" way to reinstall a graphics driver. See if that does the trick.

As for a new copy of Windows, I don't think that would be necessary. Refresh my memory here - do you have a full retail or OEM version of WinXP on CD? If so, you won't need to buy a new copy. You'll just have to reinstall it and possibly activate it over the phone (M$ will want to know why you're reinstalling it, and they need to verify that only one copy of that particular CD is active at a time, blah blah blah).

Ah, thanks! I think the phoney thing was what happened last time I reinstalled so yes, that's good.

As for the graphics drivers help, I will foller that to the letter. And i'll most likely be telling you tomorrow how that turns out.

Thanks for the help!

[Wunderbear]

Hooray! I'm back!

Hi again. I'm just posting to update: I have my new PSU! It's installed, and so far it's working well. I got this:

Thermaltake PurePower 430W. Cool. (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?TT-W0051)

I reckon it's a good component for it's price. And now, I have a lot more money, so I am very close to ready to buying a new Socket A motherboard. So, are there any good models you can recommend nowadays? I'm not that good at choosing. My budget's probably about £50.

Oh, almost forgot: Here's the new voltages collected from Sandra.

Voltage Sensor(s)
CPU Voltage : 1.63V
Aux Voltage : 3.31V
+3.3V Voltage : 2.54V
+5V Voltage : 4.92V
+12V Voltage : 12.48V
Standby Voltage : 4.35V
Battery Voltage : 3.06V

[Wunderbear]

Ooh. Odd. Look at these temperatures!

Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 32.0°C / 89.6°F
CPU Temperature : 58.0°C / 136.4°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 75.0°C / 167.0°F

There's something wrong somewhere.

EDIT: There's no airflow coming from the Power Supply! What the hell?

[Wunderbear]

Okay, the big fan on the bottom is spinning at a pelt, but I'm still uncertain.

UPDATE: HeddeheddeheddeWHA?!

New temps:

Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 32.0°C / 89.6°F
CPU Temperature : 59.0°C / 138.2°F td
Power / Aux Temperature : 26.0°C / 78.8°F

What's going on here?!

[Wunderbear]

The temperature seems to oscillate. This may just be the monitor program I use (SiSoft Sandra) but it could just be some sort of faeture. Well, so far it works fine.

Anyway. I would like to find out anything known about this make/model of motherboard:

Asrock K7NF2 Raid nForce2 Ultra (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?ASR-K7NF2R)

Or possibly this:

Asrock K7VT4A Pro Socket A VIA KT400A (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?ASR-K7VT4P)

Any help would be good, as one of these I may well be purchasing. Thank you.

[saphalline]

I don't think you'll see that system settle down until you replace the mobo. That's where the temp sensors are, afterall.

I'm putting my vote in for the NForce2 Ultra 400 mobo. That chipset has the best performance out of the two and supports the 400 FSB. The other mobo only goes up to the 333 FSB. Other than that, they're extremely similar.

[Wunderbear]

Okay. I reckon I might have to get new Ram though - unless it supports more than PC3200? I'm not sure whether mine is; it's probably not.


Chipset 1
Model : VIA Technologies Inc VT8377 Apollo KT400/A/600 CPU to PCI Bridge
Front Side Bus Speed : 2x 133MHz (266MHz data rate)
Total Memory : 768MB DDR-SDRAM
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 133MHz (266MHz data rate)


Would I have to look at it in the case? *Is clueless*

[saphalline]

DDR RAM is fully compatible. You can use any RAM speed with any mobo (for the most part) and have it work. The only thing is that the RAM speed will only run at the min speed of the RAM + chipset. So yes, it will work.

[Wunderbear]

Phew. That's a very hefty relief; I might even be getting my new stuff by the end of the month!

I'll hopefully be ordering that mobo, and some of these (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?EN-8CMFAN) and one of these (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?tt-a1745&P=0). :D I'll need to save a bit, but very soon...

EDIT: Ah. There might be a cooling issue with my PC: there's no fan holes in the front, which is probably the reason there's no fan there. Not even a vent! I mean, there's a hole in the base of the front, but i'm not sure that's enough. :S

Any ideas? Perhaps drilling some holes in the front? This is what it looks like again:

http://static.flickr.com/18/68753536_e9beef66ae.jpg

[Wunderbear]

Yay!

I bought my motherboard today! My step-dad decided he wanted one as well, so we got two.

Only thing is: on the board itself, it says that 3.3V AGP cards cannot be used, or it will cause permanent damage. This is bad, as I do not know the voltage of my soon-to-be card. It says nothing on any documentation with the card.

EDIT: Oh, the card's an Xtreme Radeon 9800SE.

Also: apparently, I wouldn't need vents on the front of my PC for a fan there to be effective. Is this true?

[saphalline]

3.3V AGP cards were the very first ones - AGP 1x & 2x. These go all the way back to the original NVidia TNT, so there's no way a new AGP vid card will be the old 3.3V kind. The new ones use voltages of 1.5V & 0.8V (for AGP 2.0 & 3.0 respectively).

If there's a spot to put a fan in front, then that hole at the bottom you mentioned is the vent for it. Basically, if you can install a fan there, the case manufacturer put some sort of ventilation there to make it at least partially effective. Although from the pic you posted, it might be wise to prop up the front end of the case (or the whole thing) so that the front fan gets some air.

[Wunderbear]

*Klaxon*

Wunderbear is back!!! But did you know I was gone?

I spent today installing my new motherboard. The installation almost went smoothly, with only a brief correction of leads for the Switches and Leds.

Reinstalled Windows, and after a brief moment of dismay and anger where after I installed the mobo drivers, nothing worked, I got things sorted, and i'm back to a workable state! (The problem was, I had left the PC to boot from the CD-drive, so the mobo drivers weren't properly installed. Reinstalling them did the trick)

Anyway. I will be replacing the backup hard-drive, with all my lovely files, tomorrow. Looking at my the temperatures, meanwhile (from Motherboard monitor instead of Sisoft Sandra), gives the CPU at 27c, and the general case at 33. :D (I still need to purchase the new fan, but there seems to be a problem; there's only one chassis fan socket on the motherboard! :O )

I am pleased. Verily.

[mjc]

That isn't too much of a problem, since it is better not to run chasis fans through the motherboard, anyway.

You should probably find a splitter and run them off of a Molex (drive connector)...

[Wunderbear]

Ah...

Connected up my backup hard drive to the computer. Set jumpers to correct settings, connected IDE connectors and power connectors.

Start up... and nil. The computer runs, but no output to the monitor or other peripherals. I try rearranging IDE connectors: Nope. Between startups, I try removing the power connector for the second drive. It works. After changing the hard-drive jumpers, here I am.

Obviously, the PSU can't handle all the power requirements. Or is it something else? Help would be nice, as I would like my old documents back.

Secondly; apparently, the reason for the low CPU temp is due to it being underclocked, apparently. How would I check this?

Thanks in advance. And I was so close, too! :(

EDIT: Also. Here's a list of the things the PSU's connected to.

Motherboard (20-PIN)
DVD Drive
CD-RW Drive
Floppy Drive
Radeon 9800SE.
Hard Drive.

[Wunderbear]

Okay.

I'm gonna try and access the Hard Drive again, just temporarily. This means i'm going to have to disconnect the Disk Drives. If this works, I'll say. If not, then obviously something else is wrong.

See you on the other side.

[Wunderbear]

...

I believe the term is, BOOYAKASHA!!!

Oh yeah. It works all right; I disconnected the CD-RW to make the power boundary. Once this is done, i'll reconnect the CD-RW drive.

It's quite surprising though; I thought I would have got more power from it. Ah well; I don't need the backup all the time.

Tomorrow, I have a day off. So i'm going to go to a local computer shop, to see if I can purchase a decent case fan.

EDIT: Confirmed with my step-dad; I should be getting more power from it. It's 430W, for Jeezey-Creezey's sake!

[saphalline]

Go into the BIOS and change the FSB from 100MHz (default on all Socket A mobo's) to 133MHz. Or from 200MHz to 266MHz - however it's listed in the BIOS. That will bring your CPU back up to full speed.

I don't think the PSU is the problem. It sounds like the IDE configuration is giving you problems. Try making your other hard drive the slave to the CD drive, and leave your main hard drive as the master of its own channel. Also, just in case, remember not to power all your drives from the same power cord. Use two different power cords. If it is a power-related problem, that's probably what it is.

[Wunderbear]

Okay. I'll try the different power cables first: then, if that doesn't work, i'll do the Master/ Slave CD configuration thing.

I'll check back in a bit.

[Wunderbear]

It works! The power cable business was right! Thank you!

I haven't done the FSB business, but i'm sure there's a set of jumpers on the bottom that set FSB speed.

EDIT: Ooh! 100th post! I feel this is worthy of recognition for a single problem. :D

[saphalline]

Ooh! 100th post! I feel this is worthy of recognition for a single problem. :DHahaha! :p Yes, it probably is. Check in with the mods for your official PCG Decoder Ring Set! :cool:

It might be a set of jumpers, but both of the new mobo's you listed should be modern enough to be jumperless. If so, just do it in the BIOS. It's a lot easier do it that way.

[Wunderbear]

Ooh! A PCG Decoder Ring Set? How marvellous*. ¬_¬

Anyway. Me and the step-dad are sure that it's to do with the jumpers; you can't change it in the bios (It's greyed out). Mine's running at 133mhz when it's supposed to be 266mhz, and my step-dad's is running at 100 when it should be 333. Could this cause damage?

Anyway. It still runs games well; I played BF2 for about 20-30 minutes (at low detail for now) and with no bugs, it's okay. Temps afterward were 25C and 45C. Quite good? Bad?

Anyway. I've been trying to get fans from some local computer shops, but for some reason, they're all out of stock of ordinary ones! One shop has casefans with LEDs, but i'm not sure I should get it. Should I? They say they'll have ordinary ones tomorrow, but I want to get some as soon as possible.

Advice would be muchly appreciated. -Wunderbear

[Wunderbear]

Okay. Here's what happened:

On the way home, I popped into another computer shop and bought (What I thought was) a casefan. When I got home, I realised it had no screws! So I went to a local PC shop I hadn't been to before. When I got there (and gawked at the amount of cool PC stuff they had), I was told it was a processor fan! So I bought from this shop a proper 80mm (albeit with UV leds and orange blade) Casefan.

Fitted it, and now my PC has two case fans! I've put my PC on a big thick catalogue, to give space for the front vent, and I can just see a dull purple glow from within. Eerie!

Anyway. When I started up, my temps were:

CPU: 25C. MB: 35C. When I did a big patch job on BF2, the MB temp slowly went to about 40C. As of now, with half an hour activeness (Albeit with just internet) I've got 28 and 37. Is that good? Bad? Ugly?

Thanks so far.

[mjc]

Pretty good...any temps that stay in the 25-40 range are pretty good. 40 to 45 is getting warm. Over 50 is time to start looking for ways to cool things down.

[Wunderbear]

Hasn't gone over 50 yet.

[saphalline]

Mine's running at 133mhz when it's supposed to be 266mhz, and my step-dad's is running at 100 when it should be 333. Could this cause damage?Yours is fine. The FSB speed is actually an effective speed since the FSB itself also uses DDR. In the BIOS, it will show half what you expect since 133 x 2 (for DDR) = 266. So yours is fine. Your step-dad's should be set to 166, because 166 x 2 = 333. That's how the FSB for AthlonXP's works in the BIOS. But next time you change CPU's, this will be different. :rolleyes: Ah well, the price of technology...

And no, it won't cause damage to underclock your CPU, just if you overclock it.

LED and other fancy case fans are just as reliable as the plain ones. They're a bit more expensive, but not overly so. I kinda like 'em myself. Gives my case an eerie red glow to it. :cool:

Those temps look MUCH better!! They're down in the good range now, so no more worries. Like mjc said, over 50C is when we start worrying, so anything under that is fine & dandy. Don't know why your mobo's idle temp is higher than your CPU's idle temp, but hey, whatever! As long as it stays around 40C under full load, it's fine.

[Wunderbear]

Eek!

I started my computer just now, reached the login screen, and GRAPHICAL CORRUPTION!!! AIIEEE!!!

Not the old kind, though. Lots of darker-coloured/misplaced blocks of pixels, in a checkerboard pattern. Rebooted, happened at the XP Loading screen. Turned off for a bit, turned on, and it's fine, for now.

Why is this happening! I checked the BIOS when I first started, and I had CPU and MB temps of 20 and 21! I don't want this to happen, HELP!

EDIT: Also, last night, I got up to 50 on mobo temperature, after an hour on BF2. Bad? What other things can I do for cooling? Would replacing the case help?

Help! And thank you.

[saphalline]

I don't think your computer likes you! :eek: :(

Seriously, this is getting pretty funny. Well, try it again with the top off and a fan. Could be the vid card is overheating again, especially if your mobo temp gets up to 50. Also, is the temperature of the room itself changing now? With summer upon us (in the northern hemisphere), everything is bound to warm up a bit.

[Wunderbear]

Well, it hasn't happened since, I can say that. It's odd; I don't think it was the temperature, as I had just started it up and all. And later yesterday, I played lots of BF2, with no problems.

Damn you, intermittent problems! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

Anyway. Do you reckon getting a new case would help my temp problem? What other things would help? I'll tell you what's not helping though; the ridiculous amount of cables coming from my new PSU. I know it's great and all, but they the case! Ay-ay-ay!

[Wunderbear]

Hmmm.

Just installed good old SiSoft Sandra, and checked temps.

Let's see:

Temperature Sensor(s)
Board Temperature : 32.0°C / 89.6°F
CPU Temperature : 41.5°C / 106.7°F
Power / Aux Temperature : 41.0°C / 105.8°F


CPU 32
MB 43


¬_¬

Could I be thinking that the sensors on one of these programs is the wrong way round? To help, i'll need some advice and sense:

Which component would heat up quicker, CPU or MB?

Thank you in advance!

[jlreich]

The CPU heats up, and should cool down, pretty quick. Do something CPU intensive and see which one goes up, that would be the CPU.

And yes they do sometimes report the temps backwards. Everest reports my system/CPU temps mixed up. Has the system as CPU and CPU as system. But there's no doubt which one is which when the temp rises 10C when I play a game.

[Wunderbear]

Brilliant! Thank you, jlreich! Now I know almost for sure that it's the processor that is overheating!

This can be easilier-ly solved than an overheating mobo! When I have the cash, I shall purchase this (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?TT-A1745), I can solve my woes!

Hip-hip hooray!