PDA

View Full Version : Adding a CD-ROM & HD to 486



jimclake
12-25-2000, 01:37 PM
I am trying to add a CD-ROM and hard drive to an old 486DX2-80 machine. I have 16 bit ISA slots available for the two IDE contoller cards I have (I couldn't easily find a ISA card with two available places for both devices). Is there an easy way of telling if the GMB-486SV (Megastar) motherboard supports a CD-ROM drive? I find no mention of it in the manual nor in the Award v4.50 BIOS.
Will both devices act as "master", with them being on their own channel? (I'm equating a "channel" with controller...is this a correct assumption?).
I'm a newbie at this upgrade business and am starting off with low cost, low end equipment as my learning process gets started!!!
Happy holidays to everyone and thanks!

Reid
12-25-2000, 02:58 PM
I was unable to find that motherboard during a search. Is the "SV" part of the model correct? Nothing comes close when using it in the search string.
Does the board have VLB slots? Look for an extra socket in-line with a 16 bit slot. If it has a VLB I/O board, it should be able to support an IDE drive (up to 540M without boot overlay software).

I used a DTC 2183 (http://www.datatechnology.com/support/guides/2183/2183.shtml) IDE controller to run the CD-ROM.

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

[This message has been edited by Reid (edited 12-25-2000).]

jimclake
12-25-2000, 11:36 PM
Sorry, Reid, I was typing that from memory! It should have read GMB-486SG.
Yes, it has 3 32-bit VLB slots. The existing controller board occupies one of the 16 bit slots. I was simply going to add two 16 bit I/O controller cards I have lying around and go from there.
I'll try it again tomorrow and see what happens.
Thanks.

Paleo Pete
12-26-2000, 07:23 AM
Specs are Here (http://www.gemlight.com.hk/proindex/G_486SG.HTM) and I think they have a pdf manual you can download. A picture of it is Here (http://www.igoshop.com/cfacts/docs/systems/80486/460113.htm) but you need "tokens" (???) to download their manual. Forget 'em, the other link has it too.

I don't see any reason it shouldn't handle a CD ROM, I haven't seen a 486 yet I couldn't get a CD ROM to work on.

To use the dual I/O card setup you might have to tinker with the jumpers a bit to eliminate IRQ/DMA conflicts, but it should work. I would use the existing controller and one other, and avoid having to change everything around. Each controller should handle two drives. Most have jumper settings to set them for primary or secondary, and IRQ/DMA channels to use. You might have to dig up specs for the cards, it may get a bit hairy, but should work.

To use hard drives larger than 540MB you'll have to go to an EIDE controller.

Some I/O card manuals are Here (http://www.tdnservices.com/manuals.html) if you're lucky, they'll have yours. The manuals are not easy to find these days...Also check my site, Trish's might have links to more specs, and maybe one or two of the other links.

------------------
My hairdresser charges me a finder's fee!!

Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

jimclake
01-03-2001, 09:49 AM
Still trying to get my CD-ROM & additional hard drive installed in my trusty old 486DX2-80.
I loaded DOS 6.22 on the original (C http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif drive just to put something there. I inserted the GoldStar Prime 2 I/O board in one of the VESA slots and the machine wouldn't boot correctly. I then switched slots with another board and put it in a 16 bit ISA slot and now, at least, the machine boots OK. I know there must be a difference between the two but I guess I just assumed if the board fit in a 16 bit ISA slot it would work just as well in a VLB slot. I understand they must be different but if it works in the 16 bit ISA slot, shouldn't it also work in the VLB slot?
Also, regarding the driver for the I/O controller card, I thought I had the correct DOS driver for it, tried to load it but it errored out, saying I had the wrong card. Then I realized that I don't have (or at least I don't know where it is!) a driver for the existing UMC contoller card (for the original C: drive) yet it works just fine! I always assumed that all devices needed drivers...not so for IDE hard drives???
Learning more every day!!!
Thanks!

Reid
01-03-2001, 07:45 PM
I have used two different brands of VESA I/O controller cards and did not need to drivers for hard drive access. The BOCA board was supposed to support a CD-ROM, but I could never get it to work. I only had success with the DTC card or using a sound card with a CD interface when working with 486's.

I also had trouble loading the CD drivers until using Creative Labs CTLOAD (http://www.creativehelp.com/faqs/opsys/95-ctload.html).

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

jimclake
01-04-2001, 06:54 AM
OK...I have the contoller card installed, apparently correctly since the computer boots OK. I installed the IBM CRMC-FX400C3 CD-ROM drive, downloaded the DOS driver and installed it, and now I get the message that it's "Unable to detect ATAPI IDE CD-ROM drive" and that "ATAPI IDE CD-ROM drive not loaded".

I got the driver from here: http://www.mitsumi.com/enduser/1_drivers.html#CD-ROM

Do I have the wrong driver? Or am I missing something else? Or (ugh) might this not work at all?

Paleo Pete
01-04-2001, 08:02 AM
I don't have access to my win3.11 machine right now to look up the exact line, but look in your config.sys and you'll find a line that tells DOS to look for the CD ROM. add l:x to yhe end, and substitute the drive letter the CD ROM should have for the x used here. That's a lower case L by the way, not a capitol I. That tells the CD ROM driver to give it a different drive letter, since usually they want D and unless I misunderstand your posts, D is already taken. That's what I had to do to get my CD ROM working in the win3.11 machine, and got the same error message, no ATAPI CD ROM found. That's because it's looking for one on D drive and it's not a CD ROM...

Hope that makes at least a bit of sense...Give me a day or 2, I'll be able to look up the exact line and location, don't have the machine available at the moment.

------------------
My hairdresser charges me a finder's fee!!

Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

jimclake
01-04-2001, 09:36 AM
Sorry, Pete, you didn't misunderstand my post, but I have not installed the second hard drive yet. I was thinking I need the CD-ROM drive more than I needed the additional HD and, so, had wanted to make sure I could install the CD-ROM. I felt more confident that the second hard drive would install with no problems (since I read in all the mb documentation about support for a second hard drive) so I was focusing my efforts to see that the CD-ROM drive was "installable".
I'm still thinking it's the controller card. I experimented and switch my C: drive connection to the new contoller card and it didn't work. I'd have to try it again to see what the exact message was...something about not "seeing" the drive. So, apparently, the machine is not "seeing" any drives attached to that controller card.
Perhaps I should try a different contoller card?
One thing I'm learning from all this...a lot of the knowledge to be gained is by simple trial and error, isn't it? See what works or what doesn't work, learn from it, and try something else!

jimclake
01-04-2001, 11:49 AM
I just checked, Pete, and I do not have that l:x parameter. I'll add it when I get home & see what happens.
BTW, should that be a /l:x? I noticed one parameter on the DEVICE statement I assume you're referring to, had a slash preceding it.
Thanks again.

Paleo Pete
01-05-2001, 05:05 AM
Yep, you're right, it should have a forward slash in front of it.

------------------
My hairdresser charges me a finder's fee!!

Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

Reid
01-05-2001, 05:48 AM
Do you have MSCDEX loaded and referenced in autoexec.bat and config.sys?
This MSCDEX (http://www.techadvice.com/tech/M/MSCDEX.htm) link has details and also many examples of setting up drivers for various CD-ROM brands.

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

jimclake
01-06-2001, 08:20 PM
Pete:
I assume you meant autoexec.bat when you mentioned the /l:x option?
And, yes, I did have that in there.

Reid:
Yes, I also had the mscdex.exe line in my autoexec.bat.

config.sys: DEVICE=A:\MTMCDAI.SYS /D:MTMIDE01
autoexec.bat: A:MSCDEX.EXE /D:MTMIDE01 /L:E /M:10

(I am booting from my A: drive. I also am trying to direct the CD-ROM drive to E http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I did manage to fix what I believe was some sort of memory issue today by changing a jumper on the I/O board that had something to do with the IDE port select. (The machine would boot but some DOS commands would act strangely; e.g., sometimes edit would work, other times it wouldn't, often when I exited edit, I received a command.com error message. When the unexplainable happens (no discernable pattern), I usually guess memory problem).
With that behind me, I set down to work on the drive again. I have a jumper set on the CD-ROM drive to slave (can you have a slave device without a master?) but the drive isn't detected when booting from the floppy. When booting from the hard drive, not only is the drive not detected, but the machine loses sight of the hard drive (C http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif! I get this message:

Bad or missing command interpreter

It then goes to a C> prompt instead of the usual C:\>.

I did try setting the jumper to master on the CD-ROM drive but it refuses to boot past the memory test. The C: drive light flashes briefly and the everything stops.

Reid
01-06-2001, 08:50 PM
Putting prompt $p$g in the autoexec.bat should get the prompt back to the familiar look and it sounds like the batch is missing the path (http://www.csulb.edu/~murdock/path.html) statement. PATH tells DOS which directories should be searched for external commands after DOS searches your working directory.

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

jimclake
01-06-2001, 09:11 PM
I have PROMPT$p$g in autoexec.bat.
I can boot from the floppy and get the A:\> prompt. I type C: to go to the C: drive and I get a C:\> prompt. I type DIR to get a directory listing and it hangs...no response at all.
I even added a PATH=C:\DOS statement at the end of my autoexec.bat and it executed OK (I stepped thru the process with F8). But still no response when I try to access the C: drive.
It seems to know the C: drive is there but, for some reason, can't get to it.

Reid
01-06-2001, 10:05 PM
DIR is an internal DOS command, so path wouldn't matter. Was the C: drive accessible before trying to add the CD? Seems now to appear like it is not partitioned and/or formatted.

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

Paleo Pete
01-06-2001, 10:26 PM
OK, sounds like it's either not finding system files or they're corrupt. Boot to the DOS boot disk and at the A:\> prompt type
sys_c:
using a space in place of the underscore used here. That should make the drive bootable again.

For now until you try to add the second hard drive change the MSCDEX line in autoexec bat to direct the CD ROM drive to drive D using the /l http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif command instead of /l:E. You can change it later after you add the second hard drive.

Is the CD ROM on the same controller as the hard drive or the secondary? Are you sure you downloaded the proper DOS driver file, ide 158.exe? Do you have it jumpered right? If on a separate controller what position is it in? The list on the Mitsumi site says it's a 4X ATAPI drive, so if you got the right driver, and the autoexec.bat and config.sys file references are both correct, it's jumpered correctly and in the right position on the cable the drive might be bad. Also check the orientation of the cable, it could be upside down. Check BIOS settings too. Often with a BIOS that has no autodetect it's hard to get a CD ROM to work at all.

If you're running it on a different controller than the hard drive, try it on the same controller as Slave and see if you get the same results. I think half the problem is trying to use two controllers. It can be done, but it sometimes takes quite a bit of tinkering to get all the jumpers and BIOS set so they get along.

------------------
My hairdresser charges me a finder's fee!!

Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

jimclake
01-07-2001, 01:10 PM
Too many unknowns here (Is the I/O card good (btw, both the original I/O card (which is working OK) and the one I'm trying to add support only one hard drive each; hence the need for both boards)? Is the CD-Rom drive good? Do I have the jumpers on both correct?) so I'm attacking this one at a time.
So, first, the I/O board...shouldn't I be able to connect the existing C: hard drive (which is working OK...I am able to boot from it & use it after disconnecting the CD-ROM drive) to the new I/O board and still have it work? It shouldn't care which I/O board it's connected to, should it?
I'm thinking if the drive won't work from the new board then either I have the jumpers wrong or the board is no good. Does that sound right?
Thanks again...and thanks for bearing with this newbie!

Reid
01-08-2001, 04:42 AM
I don't know if this will help, but the IDE contoller I was using with the CD drive was set up (default) with IORDY On (Signal passed to ISA bus), Secondary port address (170h-177h, 378) and IRQ 15. The hard drive was using the VESA I/O board.

It will simplify troubleshooting if you can get a Windows 98 Startup disk to boot with since it will try to find a driver that works with the CD.

The ide158.exe file looks like the right one for your drive if you are installing it from DOS.

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

Paleo Pete
01-08-2001, 08:10 AM
OK...each I/O controller should handle two drives. That means either two hard drives or a hard drive and CD ROM. That is determined by the ribbon cable, not the card. CD ROM cables are available with only one plug, but CD ROM's will work on the standard hard drive cable too, which has two plugs. Having one IDE channel does not limit the card to one hard drive, just one channel...each channel should handle two drives. Each card should be able to act as one channel. But the jumper settings on the cards have to be just right to allow them to work at the same time.

Too many unknowns is a good observation, so you have a good idea to eliminate one. Remove the known good I/O card and try only the unknown one. Try it with only the known good hard drive, see if it will boot to it. If so, the card is good, when you install both and it won't work you'll know you're dealing with a configuration problem. That will eliminate most of the unknowns in one step, the only thing left will be getting the jumper settings right.

Have you found any specs or other info on the cards? You might need to tinker with jumper settings on both to get them to work together, but they should work together. I'd try to leave the jumpers on the working card alone if possible, and get the second one configured to work with it as secondary. Specs on both would be very good though, some I/O cards do have a jumper that sets them for single, Primary or Secondary. So you might have a jumper on the working card stopping everything by thinking it's the only card in the system.

If you get the hard drive to boot, then try adding the CD ROM to the same card, see what happens. You might have to tinker with some BIOS settings to get it to work right.

Another question I'm not clear on...are you trying to install two hard drives and a CD ROM, or one hard drive and a CD ROM?

Also it might be a good idea to copy your autoexec.bat and config.sys files into a post so we can have a look and see if we find anything wrong. Another thing to consider might be the possibility of investing in an EIDE controller, and make sure it has two IDE channels before spending any money. That will also allow larger hard drives. That's a last resort though, we should be able to get these two to cooperate before it's all over with...

I think we're just missing something here, and I can't put my finger on it...



------------------
My hairdresser charges me a finder's fee!!

Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

jimclake
01-08-2001, 07:38 PM
Progress!!! I pulled out the original I/O contoller board out completely and connected both the floppy drive and the original hard drive (Pete, I have one existing, functional C: drive and am trying to add another hard drive, as well as the CD-ROM drive) to the contoller board I am trying to add. I booted the system up and voila! It booted up fine and I have access to both the floppy drive and the original hard drive.
So the board is good...it seems to be a configuration problem with getting both of them to work together. I'll track down the specs for the original controller board (I already have the docs for the new board) and go over them both a little more carefully.
I had connected the drive to the new board but never bothered to pull the existing board out until now!
BTW, just to double check, the docs for the new board do not specifically mention CD-ROM drive support. I'm assuming that's not a problem and that I can connect the CD-ROM drive to its IDE connection (normally assigned to a hard drive). Is this correct?
Something else I'm not quite clear on...both of these cards can accommodate 2 drives but one of the two is a floppy. It's clearly marked on both cards (HDD controller and FDD controller) so, unless I'm mistaken, I'll need both boards (and probably a third) to handle both hard drives and the CD-ROM drive. Is this correct?
Thanks again, guys!

Paleo Pete
01-08-2001, 09:26 PM
Nope, reread my above post. The ribbon cable determines how many drives you can use. If you use a CD ROM cable, it will only handle one drive, use a standard hard drive cable and it should handle two. They have two plugs.
Same for the floppy controller, the ribbon cable has two plugs, you can use a floppy on each plug. Mine has two now, a 3 1/2' and a 5 1/4" to copy files to transfer to the older XT/AT machines.

The controller should handle a CD ROM, but it could be tricky, the BIOS settings can be a hassle sometimes. Usually I set my CD ROM to autodetect, but if that option is not there, you have to tinker with the settings to get it to work sometimes.

Glad you have some progress though, now you know it's a configuration problem, not a bad controller.


------------------
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

jimclake
01-08-2001, 10:49 PM
Thank you...thank you...thank you.
I didn't know what you were talking about until I cut the plastic tie that was holding the cables together and it was like a bolt of lightning hit!
There was the second connection you were referring to!
I connected it to the CD-ROM drive and it works! Just like that!
I now have a 486 with a functioning hard drive AND CD-Rom drive.
Tomorrow I'll go to work on the second hard drive.
One final question, though...(there had to be one more!)...it seems I read somewhere where it was recommended to put the CD-ROM drive and the hard drive(s); i.e., which channels to put which drives. It had something to do with the speed of the second device which was on the same channel as another. I can't remember, though, what the recommended setup was (CD-ROM drive on its own channel or the boot drive on its own channel or what).
Do you know of any recommended setup?
Thanks again, especially Pete & Reid, for all your help.
I have another machine I'm gonna attempt a mother board upgrade on so I'll be around!

Paleo Pete
01-09-2001, 09:42 AM
CD ROM is usually preferred on its own IDE channel, since it will slow the system down if placed as slave to the primary hard drive. On a 486 I'm not sure you'd notice a big difference, but it might be worth trying to get it on its own channel, since every little bit of performance will matter. I'd definitely try to get the CD ROM on the other controller.

What I would do from here is pull the CD ROM, forget about the other hard drive for now, get the CD ROM working on the other controller, then add the second hard drive to the primary IDE channel. Watch the jumpers!

If necessary you can use the second hard drive to test the other controller, but I would try for the CD ROM, since that's what will end up on it in the long run.

Glad you finally figured out the cable issue..Now you can use a CD ROM cable if you want to for the CD ROM channel, but I would go with a standard hard drive cable, if you have an available drive bay it can take another hard drive later on.

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

jimclake
01-11-2001, 09:03 AM
I may have run into another obstacle...
I have adjusted the jumpers on the additional I/O card several different ways but no luck adding the second I/O card with the CD ROM drive attached.
I then read this in Scott Mueller's book, "Upgrading and Repairing PCs":

"The standard I/O port addresses used by disk contollers are 1F0-1F7h. These are the only addresses that the motherboard BIOS supports, so if you have a disk contoller at any other port address, it must have an on-board BIOS. Obviously, if you are adding a second controller to a system, that controller must use different I/O addresses and also must have an on-board BIOS. Most contollers use 170-177h as secondary I/O addresses, which would be used if another disk controller were in the system; however, you can use any I/O addresses that are free."

This sounds exactly like my situation. I'm reasonably sure that the I/O board I'm trying to add has no BIOS on it (at least, I don't see one).
So it appears as if I can add only one device.
What about physically replacing the BIOS? If possible, would it be worth it?
What is boot overlay software? Can I install a bigger hard drive with it?
The reason I was going to add the second hard drive was simply to allow more space with the Win 95 software I was going to install on it. 450 MB (or thereabouts) didn't seem like a heck of a lot for Win 95 & its accompanying game, word processing software, etc. (a machine for my kids)
Any other ideas as to getting around this?

Reid
01-11-2001, 10:14 PM
If the controller that you want to use with your CD does not have jumpers to change the address, I don't think there is any practical fix for that.
The DTC controller I mentioned in my first post does have jumpers to set the secondary controller address that you mentioned.

This EZ-Drive (http://www.wdc.com/service/FAQ/ezdrive.html) link is Western Digital's drive overlay solution to get around drive size limitations. Other drive manufacturer's have similar programs and are usually available for download if you do not get a copy with your new hard drive. The link should answer any questions you have.

------------------
reido@my-deja.com

Friends don't let friends load Windows ME

Paleo Pete
01-12-2001, 08:05 AM
EZ BIOS will work, but the best way to get around disk size limitations is with an Enhanced BIOS or EIDE controller card. It means spending a few bucks, $20-50, but to me it's worth it. I've used both types, they work very well. They may be cheaper now than when I bought mine 4 years ago. The PC Guide's section on Overcoming BIOS Disk Size Barriers (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/over.htm) has plenty info concerning several solutions, including Dynamic Drive Overlays, such as EZ BIOS.

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)