Safe OC level for X2 Toledo + 7800GT

[paul_]

I am building my 1st computer in March, I have all the parts on order, they should arrive today. Once I put it together, I plan on OC'ing my rig as far as safely possible("safe" as a figurative term, as in not very dangerous). I have a Tt Tsunami Dream case, am Asus A8N-SLI Premium board, top-of-the-line Zalman coolers, and a Tt Silent Wheel exhaust fan. What would be an acceptible elvel of OC? My conservative goal is FX-60 speed or slightly less, and my ultimate goal is 3GHZ. Where should I shoot? Having less-expensive RAM, will I be able to OC my CPU without changing the clockspeed ratio? I assume not, but idk. O yeah, and I am using Arctic Ceramique on the CPU and GPU.

-Paul

EDIT: Also, I have come to understand that there are no extra pipes or shaders to unlock on the 7800GT. True? It is an XFX card.

[i an not a nerd]

OK, first, there are no more pipes or shaders to unlock because it was designed with a maximum of 20 pipelines. The pipelines just arn't there to unlock. Then again, you might get lucky and get a defective core from a GTX that isn't really defective.

Now, to OC your CPU, you will need to either adjust the FSB or the CPU/FSB ratio. Now sence you have cheaper ram, I would suggest OCing using the ratio. You can probly OC up to 3ghz, but I wouldn't push it past that.

[paul_]

That's what I thought about the core, just wanted to make sure. Thanks.

I assume you mean the RAM/CPU ratio, not the multiplier. the multiplier on the 4400+ is locked(at 11, I think). I am hoping for 3, but 2.6 may be the tops. So the main thing I need help with is the graphics card. I've always used ATI, so I have no bearing on what OC is allowable on the 7800GT.

-Paul

[paul_]

Only 2 weeks 'till the build! The superb cooling for my CPU, GPU, and case will be from a Zalman CNPS 9500, a Zalman ZF700LED-CU, and a Tt Silent Wheel 130mm fan, respectively. Anyone know what I can push for clockspeed??? (no higher than 1.5 vCore on the CPU)

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

Hmmm, for the 7800GT, you can push until you get artifacts. If the card gets too hot, it will reset automaticaly (gotta love modern tech!).

And yes, i meant the CPU/RAM ratio. I was kinda tired at the time of writing. (in fact, i'm always tired... i don't get alot of time to get on here). What i meant is that you will need to lower the CPU/RAM ratio to get higher CPU OC.

[paul_]

I will definitely have to reduce the ratio if I get to 3 GHZ, but how do I tell when the proc is on the edge without frying it? (I know I'm a n00b, I'm used to retail systems where all is locked :( With almost half a grand going into the proc, I don't exactly wanna fry it. ;)

My other major endeavor around the time of building this new computer is getting my permit :D which oughtta be fun. I'm also learning on a bright yellow MINI Cooper S :D :cool:

[madad2005]

If you want to avoid frying your CPU, try to avoid increasing the cpu voltage whilst you overclock, then when you are increasing the front side bus (or however else you are doing it) do it in small steps, say 2-3 Mhz each time. Then reboot, run prime95 (burn in) for say 20 minutes, then memtest till it tests the memory once to 100%. If you get an error in either of these, you have gone too far and you'll have to go back a few percent in your overclock, but you should be good to go. Remember that the overclock also depends on how far the motherboard is willing to go too.

Please don't fry your system though. Don't rush for a result. Take your time and do it right and it will keep your equipment safe. I'd cry for you if you knackered it.

Best of luck!

[paul_]

I have a USB key with me... where can I get the programs you specefied? Or do you have to pay?

[madad2005]

You'll find the programs here. Read the help files (readme's) after you install them to get an idea about what they are for. You'll need something like 3DMark05/06 as well to burn in your gfx card. I'd suggest that, if you are going to install the vf700 cooler, to not overclock your card seriously for a few weeks so that they grease has time to burn in, then try. Remember to use coolbits and test new settings each time you increase the gpu and ram frequencies. Increase bit by bit just like you do with the CPU.

Prime95:

http://mersenne.org/gimps/p95v2414.exe

Memtest:

http://www.memtest86.com/memt32.zip

[paul_]

Thanks. Coolbits is...what? The program that resets your GPU if it's burning up?

[i an not a nerd]

"Coolbits 2 unleashes hidden function within ForceWare drivers, it enables several new Direct3d and OpenGL configuration tabs, and even more tweaking capability from the nVidia taskbar settings panel. " Its a OC/tweak program for NVIDIA cards.

Before something burns up, it will shut off. Modern GPUs will shut off when they get too hot, and CPUs will get an error and crash the computer. Remember to keep the TEMPS under 80 degrees celcius for the GPU and 70 for the CPU.

[madad2005]

Here is the link for coolbits - you just double-click on the file and it will automatically update your registry. Then, when you go into display properties -> 7800 GT there should be a menu called clock frequencies. Turn this to manual and you can now overclock by moving the little bar right and using the button below called test new settings. There is another option then lets you choose AA , AF, and VSync settings too.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=815

With the Zalman cooler, I'd be surprised if your GPU got any hotter than 55C, and that is in a hot room with a decent overclock. When i overclocked my 6800xt to the max, my temps increased from 49 to 55C, max.

Download the latest drivers from the nvidia website as well. The ones they have at the moment are very stable.

[paul_]

Remember to keep the TEMPS under 80 degrees celcius for the GPU and 70 for the CPU.

70 for an X2??? I've heard 55-60 MAX. Now I'm confused...but whatever. Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm still open for overclocking suggestions, and don't overlook anything that seems really obvious or :rolleyes:

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

Well, technically the CPU can stand up to 90, but that doesn't last long. BTW don't even try to OC a sound card... When I tried, bad things happened.

[paul_]

Overclock...what? A SOUND CARD??? You'd have to cover everything with bits of RAMsink, and you'd gain...a couple of mhz, maybe. Right? Either way, I'd probably start trying to overclock my PSU before I thought of a sound card :D

Any other nifty apps or utilities I can play around with? I've been using Speedfan, and it is fun to screw around with :cool:

-Paul

[madad2005]

Get fraps. It runs in the background and it gives you the frames per second of any application you use. Quite nifty. HDD Thermometer is quite nice too (it is all in the title). Motherboard monitor is a more complete tool for this as well. Just google them and you'll find each of them. They are all free.

I guess you're going to have a busy weekend. What PSU did you get by the way?

[paul_]

Thanks. Just the kinda stuff I was looking for. I'll get fraps right away so I can benchmark my old computer before I build my new one. Mobo Monitor sounds helpful as well. My PSU is an Antec TruePower II 550W. Should be plenty of power to juice up even my setup. From what I've heard, it's pretty stable, too. That reminds me - What are acceptable fluxuations for the 5v and +12v rails on a PSU?

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

I actually did OC my old Audigy 2 ZS...

For benchmarking, I recommend a version of 3dmark. 3dmark 03 is probly the best to meld between old and new computers.

[madad2005]

By overclocking your soundcard, do you mean you increased the system front side bus without setting the AGP/PCI ratio (I think thats what its called) to 66:33? I've done that before too.. not the best idea ive had.

Paul, before you overclock anything, make sure you go into the BIOS, in advanced settings their should be an option to set a ratio for your gfx/pci devices to system bus. I don't know how it will look on a PCI-E pc. This is necessary as if u increase your fsb normally then you increase the bus speed to ALL peripherals, which can cause a lot of problems as some devices are made tobe overclocked.

[paul_]

I thought AMD solved that by having the memory controller linked so closely with the CPU...But what do I know. I'll try to find a PCI divider, but I believe PCI-E is locked for the exact reason of OC'ing. I'm note sure whether the same is true with normal PCI, but I thought so. OC'ing things like sound cards is bad news though - It's like trying to put nitrous in a snowmobile...I've seeen it done, and the pistons were little balls of metal after the race :rolleyes:

-paul

[i an not a nerd]

madad2005, yup thats what I did, and the results were entertaining. Not that i expected to USE the card afterwards... lol

Ok, for a PCIe mobo, you don't have to worry about OCing the PCIe when changing the FSB. You do have to worry about the RAM speed though. On an AMD system with PC3200 RAM, you will have a 1:1 ratio for FSB/RAM. If that is your case, speed the RAM down in the BIOS (try 166 or 133mhz, depends on how much you OC).

[paul_]

That's what I thought, thanks for making sure. I can also change the CPU/RAM ratio to, say, 8:7 right? while my RAM isn't even close to a two-hundy OCZ kit, it has been said that it OC's with the best (A-Data Vitesta 2X1GB). they seem to rule... I'll memtest it first to see what it can take, starting at a healthy 220MHZ :) which is blazin' for a $160 2GB kit. my guess is that it will push at least 225-230, but you never can tell till it's in your system. Hell, my Asus board might even spit it out, which it's been known to do. I've got finals now though, so I gotta put the computer to the side until I get home on the 4th :D :D :D

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

I can also change the CPU/RAM ratio to, say, 8:7 right?

Yup.

Good Luck with your finals.

MIkeB

[paul_]

1st final:ACED :cool:

My next is in 4 hours, so time to hammer down...maybe...not. :rolleyes:

But yeah, I have made up a little guideline for myself for OC'ing the CPU. The most important one is NEVER to exceed 1.45vCore. I've read it is pointless to go to 1.5 and the heat output shoots up over 1.425, so 1.45 is the end of the useful increase. Also, I don't think I'll go past 3GHz on air :D just not gonna happen, so I stop there. Unless, of course, I can run Prime95 and Memtest errorless for 24 hours...then I'll keep inching up. Like that's ever gonna happen :rolleyes:

Anyway, can you increase tyhe core voltage on a GPU? Curious to see how far I can push the graphics card, so that might be the way to go. I'm gonna do some research on that A-Data Vitesta RAM and see what it can take, and I might even get new RAMsinks/RAM coolers.

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

1st final:ACED Good job!

can you increase tyhe core voltage on a GPU? Yes, but I DO NOT reccommend it whatsoever. This involves sodering the card, making this process irreversible and you will probly damage the card. There is no point in risking damaging that card.

[madad2005]

Isn't it possible to alter the core voltage by flashing the bios? I know that graphics cards voltage levels vary depending on what it is resolving and how hard it is working, but these are specified by the card manufacturers. I wouldn't reccomend it altering them as it can seriously give you a melted bit of hardware. I'd do a lot of researching on overclocker forums before that thought becomes action.

Well done on your exams. Eye of the tiger n all that.

[paul_]

Well said...I didn't think playing with GPU voltages would be easy...

thanks for wishing me good luck, I need it, but then again in 3 days I can start building my computer :D :D :D

What else can I do to tweak the computer?

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

Isn't it possible to alter the core voltage by flashing the bios?

Hmm, I'm an ATI guy, and as far as i know, on ATI cards flashing the BIOS will not do that. I'm not sure about NV cards.

[/QUOTE]What else can I do to tweak the computer?[QUOTE]

Well, you can slim down what Windows is running by turing off services that you don't need. But then again, with the setup that you are building, and with the OCing, do you really need to tweak any more? Lol.

Well sounds like that your computer is gonna be flying! Remember to post back when you are done building your computer. If you have a highspeed connection, think about downloading and running Futuremark's 3DMark '06 to benchmark your computer.

MikeB

EDIT:

O btw, I forgot another thing. You may need to lower the HT multiplier to get to higher speeds.

[paul_]

umm...yeah. about that. the HTT multiplier is locked on every current AMD save for the FX series and maybe some of the Opterons, so I can't do spit with it. It's all in the FSB/CPU ratio and HTT freq...

I do plan to run my own msconfig every time the computer starts up, as I do now. msconfig itself annoys me because I like the control over the individual boots.

-Paul

[i an not a nerd]

the HTT multiplier is locked on every current AMD save for the FX series and maybe some of the Opterons

Huh, maby i'm not talking about the right thing. On my machine, you can change the HyperTransport multiplier (x1, x3, x5)

[jlreich]

The HT multiplier on my AMD64 3000+ is not locked either. I can choose 1-5x. Which means I can only lower it and not raise it past the default 5x. Although Everest says it can go up to 9x, so I guess it is locked to a point.

[paul_]

The system is built! I found the HTT multiplier, as jlreich said it is 1-5. I am giving it till tomorrow for the ceramique to set up and then I will start nudging her up, starting with RAM. I need to figure this whole memtest x86 out though, it seems a little confusing for a n00b... I can tell you though, it has the potential. I played HL2 Lost Coast and after I finished, the fins on the Zalman were not even really warm...and the fan was on LOW. I can't wait to put the other Zalman on the GPU!!!

VIVA LA NEW COMPUTER SMELL!!!

-Paul

[madad2005]

Memtest is easy... just extract the .exe file and run it... simple as that. You may need 2 run it twice at the same time to use up 2GB of RAM. The Zalman coolers are extremely impressive - I'm glad you think so too! If you have a dual-core CPU you may need to run Prime95 twice as well, as I can't remember if it has dual processor support.

Anyway, best of luck! If you ever decide to give any of your gear away for free, just let me know ;-).

[paul_]

I've broken down and I am actually on the internet with this thing (albeit in Opera) and downloading the **** out of it :D Can't wait to fire 3Dmark 06 at the 7800GT!!! Memtest is running, let it go 2 passes and no errors, so I'll let it run tonight and be overclocking in the morning! Can't wait to push this thing! And I don't even have the Zalman on the graphics card yet. O yeah... As I said last post, this SOB idles at 30, and I used BurnIn Test and it got up to only 40 with the fan on low!!! I opened the case and the heatpipes were cool to the touch! I am in love...Oh god, do I need a girlfriend.

-Paul

[paul_]

It's been only a day and now I'm really pushin' it! It's working, too. 2 iterations of Prime95 running at 2600MHz (400 above stock) on the high STOCK voltage - 1.40V! Still idling at 30-32C and with Prime95 going for an hour at full blast, my cpu tenp is at 46C with the Zalman on LOW! Gotta go, prime95 is almost done, so time to hike it up another 50!

-Paul

[paul_]

nevermind...I had the multiplier in BIOS set to auto :rolleyes:

I fixed that, tried 200mhz over normal, and my graphics card is going ballistic! the screen starts flashing whenever I try to do something intensive. I know for a fact that this is a problem...because a CPU based overclock should bot snd the GPU into a fury! I thought the PCI-E bus was always locked...wtf...

-Paul

[madad2005]

Be careful there! That doesn't have to be your gfx card that is giving probs, but your processor. Last time i went to0 far o'clocking, I was getting windows error messages almost every second and it was a struggle to shut it down. It is best not to up voltages too early.

I can't offer too much knowledge on overclocking athlons as I've never had one. Have you made sure you haven't pushed your RAM too far? I'd suggest, initially, to make sure your RAM never goes above its rated speed until you can find a stable overclock. Once you have a stable cpu overclock, check to see how far you can push your RAM.

By the way, before overclocking anything, you should really be benchmarking your system so you have a baseline result to compare your results too. Prime95 has an option to benchmark (it calculates some numbers - can't remember which now and i don't have it installed). If you are actually overclocking your system, the time taken to calculate them will reduce (obviously).

Best of luck again!

[paul_]

I got it fixed. I flashed the CMOS back to its normal config and started from scratch. Not a big deal, but thankfully it's working fine. The CPU was too far OC'ed for the voltage, as was the RAM. I'm cruising along at an eh... pace of 2300 now, so progress is being made. The FSB mult. is 10, and the HTT mult is set to auto.

-Paul

EDIT: Perhaps someone can tell me why my processor is running about 5C cooler while OC'ed 100MHz over stock? :rolleyes: not that it's a bad thing.. :D

[jlreich]

Perhaps someone can tell me why my processor is running about 5C cooler while OC'ed 100MHz over stock? :rolleyes: not that it's a bad thing.. :D
Did you reduce the voltage? If so that would account for cooler temps. Most likely though the thermal paste is probably starting to set in after what you have been putting it through. :p

Do be careful though. Make sure you understand how everything works together. OC'ing AMD with the HT is not quite as straight forward as OC'ing a Pentium is.

I would really hate to see you fry your new system by being in too much of a hurry and without proper research and understanding.

I would try the system out with no OC for awhile. If it suits your needs just fine then leave well enough alone. Or maybe do a modest OC for a boost in performance. I mean after all you do have a X2 4400+ and a 7800GT. :cool: I know I know, it's really hard not to OC.... :p

[paul_]

I know I know, it's really hard not to OC.... :p

REALLY HARD is an understatement :D How is it not that straightforward??? I have it running at 2500 with a stock vcore and no errors (yet--the 2 prime95s are running as we/I speak). At least, I think 1.4 is stock...itsaid 1.3-1.4 on newegg. Either way, the RAM isn't even runnung at it's rated speed, so gotta keep goin' :rolleyes:

BTW, the temps are back to the high 40s where they should be :D I bet it was the ceramique setting in...It really does help, then ;)

-Paul

[paul_]

C:\Documents and Settings\Paul\My Documents\My Pictures\speedfan screenshot.GIF


I'm having 2nd thoughts. Which line makes more sense to be the CPU???

-Paul

00ps...does the link work?

[madad2005]

Nope. Can you post the picture?

As I said before, the best way to see whether you are actually getting better performance is to benchmark your system at each new overclock. Then you will see whether performance is going up or down.

Jlreich made some good suggestions - if i had the system you have, there would be no way in hell i'd be messing with it! Ok, maybe the gfx card then ;-p!

[paul_]

Last night was worth staying up. I've gotta work on ratios to bring the RAM up, but my CPU is officially at FX-60 speed!!! That's right, I have got this thing stable at 2.6G @1.425vcore. I couldn't be happier now. Once I bring the RAM up to snuff, time to install the other Zalman and crank the vid card! that will be much safer and more straightforward, though. Still, hard to believe...I spent half the money for 2.6... :D

-Paul

P.S. How do I post the pic?

[madad2005]

When you post a message, there is an option below the text box to manage attachments - use that. Other ways to confirm your cpu speed is through 3dmark or even my computer should show your new speed. Hell of a nice setup though!

What PSU are you using?

[paul_]

My PSU is a 550W Antec TruePower 2.0. Voltages are solid as a rock for an $85 PSU...

I'm not looking for cpu speed, I'm looking for which graph more likely represents the CPU and which is the NB. I am assuming that the onr that skyrockets the moment I start Prime95 is the CPU and the one that rises gradually is the NB. Benchmarks:
PCMark '05 = 5655 marks

3DMark '03 = 6455 marks

3DMark '05 = 6568 marks

3DMark '06 = 4365 marks

uhhh... :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

good stuff. Comparatively, my original PCMark score was around 3950 :eek:

I am getting quite a few artifacts, though. I'm gonna back it down a few...

-Paul

[madad2005]

Your 3Dmaro03 score is half of what it should be. The other two scores look pretty good! Nice job!

Yeah, that sounds about right. The mb won't get much hotter when you are benching your system, especially since it has its own cooling fan. Do you have a cpu chart for each core?

[paul_]

Obviously I don't hgave temp graphs for each core, but for usage, yes. It looks so cool... The only time I've ever seen them working at full tilt is with double prime95 runnung, and even then I can do other stuff (dual primes are running right now and all night while I watch a DVD and defrag the hard drive :D)

This system is amazing, except I'm still getting artifacts... MY X700 would run higher frequencies than this!!! not with RAM though...

[madad2005]

Have you installed the Zalman cooler yet? Check www.guru3d.com for maximum overclocks on a 7800GT with good cooling. There will be someone there who can tell you if you've gone too far or not!

[paul_]

Yep, I've got it on and with my Zalman 9500 on low, it has cut the noise of the computer by about 90 percent :D Checking link...

[i an not a nerd]

3DMark '03 = 6455 marks Wow, that is not right! Do you have the latest drivers for your card?

[madad2005]

Do you have vsync turned on?

[paul_]

I think I have vertical sync on in the nvidia options, but I have the base version of the 3dmarks so I have no control in that. I just got back from houston, so I haven't had time to toy around. I also need to back off my OCing on my graphics card, I'm gettin lots of artifacts.

BTW I completely HATE my new mouse...it jumps and makes me suck at FPS games.

[madad2005]

Bad workman blames his tools! ;-)

You can force vsync and any other setting off in the advanced section of display properties, so that 3DMark can#t use those settings.

What settings is your card at?

[paul_]

OK, so vsync should be off. Every other setting is up all the way or app preference. What SHOULD they be?

[madad2005]

For benchmarking, the settings should be:

VSync = Off
AA = Off or Application Controlled (test both)
AF = Off or Application Controlled (test both)
System Performance = Quality (although you should also test with performance)

Turning settings to application controlled will give more comparable results with everyone else. When playing games though, I'd set Vsync, AA, and AF to application controlled, and system performance to quality or high quality.

Either way, you have an uber machine so it isn't going to make much difference anyway! ;-)

[paul_]

lol i just thought of something...
Isn't the FX-60 the fastest proc on the market? I mean isn't it faster than all of the Intel dual cores? That means... My computer is faster than any stock intel rig!!! :D

I'll set the settings to what you said, and try marking again.

[paul_]

OK I fixed the scores, and they're summat awesome!

PCMark: 6025
3DMark 03: 16315 :eek: :eek: :eek:
3DMark 05: 7502
3DMark 06: 4998

MUCH better! almost a 3x improvement on '03 and a decent improvement on everything else. This thing is a friggin' BEAST :cool:

Now I'm gonna get flashy. Air coolers for the RAM, LED fans, diode/LED tubes, the works! I hope I can fund it all...

-Paul

[paul_]

Nevermind about RAM cooling, I ran outta money :rolleyes:

I'm planning on 2 new fans, a 120mm for the front and a 90mm for the side, both with LED lights. Then I'm also going for one 12" cathode tube and one 4". Hopefully they'll be here by friday...

[i an not a nerd]

Ok, about case modding. BE VERY CAREFUL! You want this to look good right? So don't just plug stuff in and be all like "whao lights"! Try and have matching lights. For example, I have a RedvsBlue setup where on the bottom I have a red cathode on the bottom and a blue on the top, and the graphics card in the middle. Very cool shadows. Also, don't make it too bright, or if you can't change that, then at least make sure that the lights are not directly viewable (try and hide them behind stuff). Also, about the fan in window thing, my personal preference is to keep it clear of lights because the lights distract from the inside of the case (eyes trying to adjust to 'layers' of lighting at once doens't feel good...). Last, but not least, think about getting something to control the fans from the front of the case, such as this: http://www.xoxide.com/logisys-multifunction-panel-silver.html
This is what I have, the remote gives a big boost in !wow! factor at Lan Partys!

[paul_]

Right. So scatch the side panel fan. Can I cover the cathodes to make the light softer or something? Oh, and...I think I'm finally getting a better monitor. Finally time for me to say goodbye to D-Sub!

[i an not a nerd]

Ok, for covering the cathodes, try using tissue paper. You can tape it into place. if your tubes are in the corners out of direct view of the window then thats a bonus because no one can see the tissue. Just to warn you, the first time that I tried that i had a few unfriendly laughs. But, when people realized what vid card I have they shut up pretty quickly.

Going from D-Sub to DVI is quite nice! Improved image quality and the lot. What moniter are you getting?

[paul_]

I thought I was getting an AG Neovo 19", but my mom is kinda wobbling between buy.com and newegg, so this could take awhile... :rolleyes: