IE vs. Firefox

[alpinemonkey]

I've heard so much about the benefits of Firefox and understand that it is 'safer' and also faster than IE.

I have Norton Internet Security and thus my PC can't really be much safer than it is...however...if Firefox is faster then this sounds good.

I DO use Hotmail though and am told that it doesn't load in Firefox.

If I did get Firefox, could I uninstall IE? If not, what's the point?

[jcnoernberg]

I've heard so much about the benefits of Firefox and understand that it is 'safer' and also faster than IE.
It's not "safer", it's just not as targeted by the a-holes... yet. as far as faster? I don't know I haven't used it.

I have Norton Internet Security and thus my PC can't really be much safer than it is...however...if Firefox is faster then this sounds good.
I have Norton as well w/ IE and have never had a problem, I've never come accross something Norton didn't catch...

I DO use Hotmail though and am told that it doesn't load in Firefox.
You could always use outlook express for hotmail...

If I did get Firefox, could I uninstall IE? If not, what's the point?
Just keep IE installed.... why? Because you already pointed out that Firefox wont load everything...

[Budfred]

There are a number of things that Norton will not catch and using only Norton is not enough...

You cannot uninstall IE because it is built into Windows... You can use FireFox for another browser and it is much better in a number of ways, including security... Not only is it not targeted as much as IE, it is probably more secure to begin with and the response time when a threat is found is much quicker than MS...

[Sylvander]

I use Firefox almost all of the time and only use IE for the odd site.

I find Firefox slightly slower than IE, but still prefer to use Firefox.
Firefox does some really cool things.
The best is the fact that there is a GREAT search feature included for Bookmarks [see below].
As you type in a series of characters, the number of bookmarks reduces to display only those bookmarks that include those characters.
That alone makes it worth more than IE in my opinion, but there are other nice features too.

[ErnieK]

My main browser (and has been for a few years now) is OPERA. Give this a serious thought as it is a really good fast browser. http://www.opera.com/download/

If set to show tabs you can right click a tab where it will give you the choice of duplicating the existing page which is very handy if you want to keep the first but need the second page as well (they sit side by side in the main frame - handy when you want to answer a question in PC Guide)

I also have Firefox installed to use when I arrive at pages that say they need IE and to check with if I am having problems getting into a web page. I use this for checking my Hotmail account without problems. The only drawback is that I have to enter the mail address and password every time, though this is not a bad thing.

As for using OE to check hotmail, my personal thoughts on this is no. you are more likely (less nowadays) to get a lot of spam into oyur hotmail account than you OE account and if you check it out with OE you might download them to your computer.

I use MAILWASHER to check my POP and Hotlamil accounts.

[pentachris]

It's not "safer", it's just not as targeted by the a-holes... yet.
The lack of ActiveX makes Firefox safer.

You could always use outlook express for hotmail...
If you pay for an MSN subscription...

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=878462

[classicsoftware]

It's not "safer", it's just not as targeted by the a-holes... yet. as far as faster? I don't know I haven't used it.


You are just 100% dead wrong. By not having active-X as pointed out above, it is safer. Second if you add the NOSCRIPT extension you pretty much eliminate any drive by spyware installations.

Firefox is safer than IE any day of the week and twice on Sundays.....

[hockey man]

Firefox is safer than IE any day of the week and twice on Sundays.....

I like it. . .

[pop pop]

I really shouldn't pile on, but I waited a good long time to calm down (read jcnoernberg's response this morning at work). Firefox, without a doubt, is more secure, even Norton has recently done an about face on that. Here's a snippet I love:

I have Norton as well w/ IE and have never had a problem

Good. But you must have never tried to uninstall Norton.

[Whyzman]

classic, thanks for the heads-up on the NO SCRIPT extension! ;)

[ErnieK]

I have use Jason Levine's SCRIPT SENTRY for guarding against scripts since it was released in 2002. Set and leave it. It watches for ALL scripts on a PC and asks for permission to open them. I work under the assumtion (am I correct?) that it will safe guard for drive by scripts as well

Check it out here http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/programs.asp?Program=Script%20Sentry

[Matt H]

I have been using microsofts IE7 beta and so far I havent had any problems.

[hockey man]

Just wait. . .with Windows it is not a question of if but when.

[PrntRhd]

IE can be made relatively safe if set up properly, it is just that the default setup is nowhere near safe. IESpyads and SpywareBlaster can increase the safety if IE is used.

Maxthon is safer than default IE but still uses IE as a core.

Firefox and Opera are both safer by design, and are my choices.

[Ace Card Jones]

I have found FF to be slower than IE and not as good an interface but it has a built in pop up blocker which is always good i run both and have only caught anything on IE that was down to me not the browser.

And if you have something like Defender blocking pop ups you dont need a built in feature in IE.And the lack of active X can lead to not being able to view sites properly so its all about what we do on the internet really that determines whether we are safe or not.I dont think IE is as bad as all you pro FF people make it out to be.It has more compatability which is a plus but isnt QUITE as safe as FF so basicaly surf safely and you will be ok really......right?

[classicsoftware]

The initial load is slower, because Windows loads IE as part of the OS. The page rendering in FF is faster than IE in my experience.

Except for MSN and MSNBC, there are no sites I cannot view with FF.

As for safety, FF is safer any day of the week and twice on Sunday...

its all about what we do on the internet really that determines whether we are safe or not

If that was true, The Applications and security forum would be empty and Budfred would have a life. IE is a huge part of the spyware problem.

[Ace Card Jones]

But if no one downloaded all the ilegal stuff they do and only went on safe known websites they wouldnt get infected.(And they checked their email carefully)

[classicsoftware]

But if no one downloaded all the illegal stuff they do and only went on safe known websites they wouldn't get infected.(And they checked their email carefully)

Not true. Click on the wrong link in a Google search and get sent to a bad site and your screwed. A great deal of the spyware is installed by social engineering. But there are many nefarious people who create sites and get traffic from people who do not frequent porn, gambling or other less than reputable sites.

Just because you have not been infected yet, does not mean you wont be soon.

[pentachris]

But if no one downloaded all the ilegal stuff they do and only went on safe known websites they wouldnt get infected.(And they checked their email carefully)

And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses hopping.

Unfortunately, this is as unlikely as everyone practice safe surfing habits.

[Ace Card Jones]

Not true. Click on the wrong link in a Google search and get sent to a bad site and your screwed. Just because you have not been infected yet, does not mean you wont be soon.

Thats happened to me before i was looking for pics from FFVII and i clicked on a site and the site didnt load up my computer just died on the spot.i only had mcafee then and now i have a lot more security and i still dont think infection is avoidable.And about getting viruses i have and im sure i will get viruses but you said one wrong click on GOOGLE.if your searching something then the site isnt known is it?lol

I suppose we could sit and discuss this for hours and still not agree but if we were not on the wrong sites or downloading the wrong stuff we would be fine.

[bassman]

Just my 2 cents, had to check for myself as I was certain it worked. Just checked my hotmail account in Firefox :rolleyes: It works.

[jlreich]

Using FF is safer out of the box. Even with proper tweaking IE is still less safe than FF.

If you add the NoScript extension to FF it really locks down the browser. Even if you happen upon a bad site it will stop most anything just by not allowing any scripts to run. No scripts means no crud.

No matter what browser you use if you download something and run it on your machine you can get infected. That has nothing to do with the browser.

[Paul Komski]

I dont think IE is as bad as all you pro FF people make it out to be.It has more compatability
Compatibility with what? Other MS products maybe. One of the real (non-security problems) with IE is that even though MS sits on the W3C consortium it makes a browser that doesnt adopt the W3C standards. As a result if will render certain pages in a non-compliant (or just as bad, a much too compliant) manner. Firefox adopts the standards fully.

e.g. as per http://jp29.org/test.php

But the problems do not end there. Current XML
compliant browsers such as Mozilla, Netscape, Opera, et
al. retrieve and render these pages with no problem.
However, older browsers -- and more importantly by far
-- the most frequently used graphical browsers today --
MSIE 5.x/6.x -- will not render these documents
correctly. MSIE presents them as Down Load files and
there is no backward compatibility for older
browsers.

[classicsoftware]

And about getting viruses i have and im sure i will get viruses but you said one wrong click on GOOGLE.if your searching something then the site isnt known is it?lol


You don't understand the nature of the threat. The virus issue is well handled by current AV software. It's the spyware issue that is the major problem. Let's say your child is doing research on breast cancer. You use Google to look up information not just links for sites. You click on a link that looks interesting, instead it's a porn site. That site has a script that will infect your IE browser, but not your FF browser.

Your child did not attempt to go looking for porn sites, he/she got there by accident. This happens all of the time.

You can say we can agree to disagree and that's fine, it's just your are woefully unaware of the nature of threats that are out there. Keep using IE and make sure you post your HJT log in this (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=34) forum.
after you get zapped.

[Ace Card Jones]

Im not saying FF is not safer it is im aware of the noscript extension but the only time i got infected on IE was all down to me.Thats all im saying.And im well aware of all the horrible spy-ware you can catch i have gotten spyware 3 times the first time was the time that killed my first computer and i had to wipe my drives and re-install windows.
Another problem with what happened then was that i was only running service pack1 then.

And i have and always will post my HJT logs here.lol

[jcnoernberg]

There are a number of things that Norton will not catch and using only Norton is not enough...



I'll let you know when I visit some bogus warez, porn, or P2P site and find something...





You are just 100% dead wrong.



well I’ve read countless times on this forum that firefox is less targeted and budfred just said that like 5 minutes. i think you're 100% wrong becaused there's no denying that statement. that contributes to a lot of its security, not all of it, but some... commence whining now...



Good. But you must have never tried to uninstall Norton.

actually no i haven't had to... maybe inadvertintly by a reformat. but that wasn't what the discussion was about. I'm not one of these people who's like "oh i use firefox so i'll defend it to death" or "i use norton so therefore it's the best". All I said was that I use Norton, and I have never come across something catastrophic or something I couldn't fix in 5 minutes. There’s no idiot proof security, but when you take the idiot out of the equation and stop visiting porn sites or warez sites, you'll be fine with just about anything you use.

[Budfred]

I'll let you know when I visit some bogus warez, porn, or P2P site and find something...
My work computer uses Norton and it got heavily infected when I went to a site to look up some lyrics... I didn't know at the time that lyric sites are often massively infected... Strangely, there were no warez, porn or P2P options available at that site and my computer got infected anyway... Norton didn't even notice the approximately 20 infections it was hit with...

[classicsoftware]

well I’ve read countless times on this forum that firefox is less targeted and budfred just said that like 5 minutes. i think you're 100% wrong becaused there's no denying that statement. that contributes to a lot of its security, not all of it, but some... commence whining now...

I you wish to be uniformed, then in the USA you are free to believe anything you want.

Is it true that Firefox is less targeted than IE and that contributes to its improved security. Yes it is and I never denied that. The truth, which is something you choose to ignore is ACTIVE-X. IE has it and Firefox does not. This is the MAIN reason why Firefox is safer. Active-X allows a web-site to run a program as if it was on your hard drive WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT!. This is how people get infected without going to PORN, P2P or other known sites.

I have removed spyware from many machines and I know the people involved and they are not into porn, P2P or other known bad sites. Does going to Porn, gambling, P2P and other sites increase your chance of getting infected, yes, does avoiding them guarantee you won't be infected, NO!!

Two of the people who deal with malware on this forum on a DAILY basis are telling you one thing, you are free to believe we are wrong.

p.s. I'll make sure to remind the Easter Bunny to stop by your house.....

[classicsoftware]

Just another reason why Firefox is and always will be Safer (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=45540) than Internet Explorer as long asIE clinges to Active-X.

Please note: FireFox and Opera users are NOT affected.

[saphalline]

The safest computer is the one that never gets used and is not connected to the internet at all. But safe isn't why humans exist, and we can't live our lives in true safety because that would basically mean sitting at home doing nothing. It's dangerous to drive a car - you could get in a car accident. It's dangerous to cook - you could burn the house down. It's dangerous to work - stress can and will shorten your life span. It's dangerous to do anything, but we must do something eventually.

There is no way to surf the net and still be completely safe. It's just never going to happen. A few people out there ruin it for the rest of us, and some of them aren't actively trying to be cruel, they're just incompetent.

I also don't think it's fair to attack jcnoernberg or anyone else who uses IE out of principle or lack of understanding. The forums has always had a great reputation for informing, educating, and offering good reliable advice to people. By attacking people who use IE because they see nothing wrong with it, and by calling them an idiot for not using a technically more secure browser I think goes against the PCG ethos. I honestly don't know why the security experts are so gung-ho emotional about all of this. For crying out loud,
chill out!

Geez, you guys, I never go on rampages like this in the hardware section of the forums like the Four Horseman of the Apocolypse! Attacking someone about the way they do things is a sure-fire way to never convince them that your side of the argument has any validity. You put people on the defensive, emotions get involved, and you've lost them forever. This is psychology 101 stuff. They call me the "hardware god" in Buying and Upgrading and Core Hardware. Why? Because I know a lot and I'm willing to give you the facts and my reasons for picking a component or recommending a certain course of action for an upgrade. If I feel you're wrong, I'll say so and give you more info to back up my side of the argument, but when push comes to shove it's the buyer's money at stake. And they can spend it however they want. I do my utmost to prevent myself from ranting like this, despite the fact that there are also a lot of hardware-related emotion wars out there, like Intel vs AMD and NVidia vs ATI. This isn't the first time I've seen a rant like this, either. You guys either need to chill out or learn how to express yourselves in a more constructive manner. Perhaps you don't even know how overbearing and jabbing you are being.

I'm going to stop here.

[classicsoftware]

Saph:

I appreciate your rant. However, Since I spend so much of my time fixing the things that go wrong when people don't take adequate precautions, I get annoyed when people insist on encouraging others to behave the same manner.

Yes, there are risks with everything we do in this life. What we should try to do is minimize them. If jcnoernberg wants to use IE, that is his privilege. If he wants to encourage others to also do it, I draw the line there. Until MS addresses the active-x issue, it will remain less safe than non active-x browsers like Firefox and Opera.

Especially since the newest exploit noew includes a rootkit that will be extremely difficult to remove. Also since much of the malware is now slipping in key logging software to steal banking and credit card information, it is critical that users be informed of the best ways to protect themselves...

[saphalline]

If jcnoernberg wants to use IE, that is his privilege. If he wants to encourage others to also do it, I draw the line there.Ah see, now we hit the nail on the head! Very well-said.

I agree with the information that has been presented in this thread - all very good security advice. But we need to stop the attacks. Like I said, all of you may not even notice that you are attacking eachother or feeling attacked. But we do need to communicate more about the underlying problems. What you just said makes so much more sense, is much less argumentative, and is a heck of a lot shorter than the last 10 posts!

jcnoernberg - Understand that this is not a case where we all think you are an idiot! Quite the contrary, since you are now a regular on the forums and are able to offer advice in many areas. But you need to be more careful about how you phrase things. Jumping into a thread extolling the security virtues of alternative browsers by saying "IE works for me" is just asking for commentary! And of course we all need to realize that no matter how we do things and how lucky we have been, it is still just our way of doing things. What works for you and what's best for everyone (keep in mind the level of expertise that visitors to the forums may have) may not be the same.

I'm also not trying to single anyone out or say that everyone in the security section of the forums is mean. I fully understand the problems that you have to deal with as I've seen it, too. Systems that take 5 minutes to boot and show red flags with BartPE disks - oh the horror stories... And yes, it can get very frustrating. In fact, I don't think there is a more frustrating part of computers than cleaning up the sh*t that "Wintel" systems collect over time. It would certainly be wonderful if everyone took just one or two very basic security precautions with their systems, such as doing Windows updates or installing and using some type of anti-spyware/malware utility. But woe is us who understand these things and have to deal with the resulting mess.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a little bit of understanding could have prevented some of the attacks here. Anytime a thread can raise your heart rate, that's a red flag to be careful.

[carrot]

wow.
well said saph! i was looking at my other post (the USB drive thingey) and i saw this and it looked interesting. i read it, and i agree wholeheartedly (wow, i spelled it right on the first try!)

[classicsoftware]

And last but not least: Please read this article on Linux Watch Entitled:

Why is anyone still using Internet Explorer? (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8517467708.html)

Just a few quotes for those who don't want to read the entire article:

OK, how many times must Internet Explorer be ripped open like a hot 16-year old in a summer slasher movie before people finally get it: IE is not safe. Period. End of Statement.

I don't care if you only run it around the Web on Sundays and to the nicest sites. If you run IE, you're just asking to me slammed by worms, bots, adware, and every other kind of malware on the planet.

Here's the simple truth: Even if you don't believe in Linux, open-source, and all that jazz, no one who knows anything about computer security can believe that IE has been, is now, or is likely to be secure anytime soon. Firefox is simply the better choice.

an unattended copy of Firefox is still a lot more secure than even a constantly watched and updated copy of IE.

If you care about your security, about the security of any of your friends, family, or co-workers, it's time to switch to Firefox.

And while I continue to pile it on, as far back as June 2004, The Department of Homeland Security U.S. government's Computer Emergency Readiness Team, or US-CERT said:

But last Friday, in response to the latest security exploit involving Microsoft products, the usually staid U.S. government's Computer Emergency Readiness Team, or US-CERT, published a warning strongly suggesting that users of Microsoft's Internet Explorer should switch to another Web browser, due to "significant vulnerabilities" in technologies included in IE.

This is not a personal attack on anyone. It is a plea to all computer users anywhere. IE is not safe. The world of hacking is much more dangerous. The first wave of hacking was like kids playing around mild vandalism. They changed your start page. Then came the adware, then the spyware. Now we have key loggers designed to send you to the poor house. There are signs that IE7 will be safer, but until it is out of Beta, please please please be aware IE is not safe and the hackers are playing for keeps....

[Paul Komski]

It's not just IE - it is Microsoft more generally that has constantly left the door open to abuse. Leaving aside hacking, even embedded systems with no IE on them are at risk, as the following three year old article shows. http://www.microsoftmonitor.com/archives/001963.html

Now 90% of the world uses Windows so there is a huge problem. MS got into this state because it always wanted presentation and ease of use AND MARKET SHARE to take precedence over security; it stayed ahead of the game only by compromising itself. That has left it with a monster that will persist until Windows is redesigned from the ground up.