Graphics card upgrade advice

[skallben]

Hello, as the topic says I need some advice in the jungle of GPUs :)
I got an AMD2800 processor, 756 mb RAM, 400w PSU and currently a Radeon 9600pro.

For budget, Id like to stay around 170-200 euro, not more than 200. Thats 200-250$ dont know which currency to put it in. I live in europe I dont know if that effects the price. Any advice on models and brand would be welcome, Im open to softmodding if its a good alternative. Several alternatives with motivations would be greatly appreciated.

First post here btw, looked like a competent bunch here so I figured you might be able to give some good advice.

Edit: Its an AGP card Im looking for. And on that subject, exactly how much better does PSI-E perform?

[Gothmog]

I'm not sure that you would gain a lot by upgrading your graphics card.
You might try adding Ram first and go from there. Maybe get up to 1Gb or 1.5

Here is a list of gfx cards that meet your criteria. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048+1069609639+1068509619&Subcategory=48&description=&srchInDesc=&minPrice=&maxPrice=&ATTR2=&ATTR3=&ATTR4=&ATTR5=&ATTR6=&ATTR8=&ATTR9=&ATTR10=&ATTR11=&ATTR12=&ATTR14=&ATTR15=&ATTR16=&ATTR17=&ATTR18=)
I think that the eVGA Geforce 6800GS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130264) might be what you are looking for, but I'm not sure of price or availability outside of US.

I'm in somewhat of a similar situation as you, but my system is a little older I think, so my upgrades in this range would make greater gains.
good luck

[saphalline]

I'm not sure that you would gain a lot by upgrading your graphics card.:eek: skallben would most definitely gain a lot by upgrading the vid card!! It's the most important component for determining gaming performance!

The 9600 series is getting old. The AthlonXP 2800+ is good enough for gaming, and 768MB of RAM is also adequate (certainly much better than 512MB). The 400W PSU might be a little on the lean side, though, depending on the rails and number of drives in your system, but it should be able to handle one of the higher end VPU's/GPU's.

For your price range, I would start at the GeForce 6600 GT. Below your budget, yet still about 3-4 times as powerful as your 9600 Pro in modern games. Moving up from there, the Radeon X800 GTO is about 40% more powerful than the 6600 GT, and is probably the best fit for your budget. Just beyond your budget is the 6800 GS that Gothmog referred to. From what I understand of European hardware prices, this is too expensive, but provides yet another 30% boost over the X800 GTO.

PCIe vid cards don't necessarily perform better than their AGP counterparts right now, but PCIe x16 is the new vid card slot and has more potential bandwidth than AGP 8x. As such, PCIe vid cards are more plentiful, have a better upgrade path (AGP is slowly dying), and are cheaper (because all the latest GPU's/VPU's are native PCIe). The PCIe versions of both the 6600 GT and 6800 GS are significantly cheaper than the AGP versions by about 10-20%. If you had a PCIe capable chipset/mobo, the more powerful 6800 GS might squeeze under your budget. But don't mourn too much - moving up to PCIe for you would be a major core upgrade and would cost more than a new vid card.

I say upgrade your vid card one more time, then call it quits for that system. If you are really so inclined, you can also pick up a gig of DDR400 RAM for really cheap, but I would sink more into a vid card first. And by the time you want to upgrade again, it will probably be time to toss that system (in terms of using it as a main gaming system anyway).

[skallben]

Ok, thanks for the reply I think the 800GTO is the alternative Im interested in judging from your feedback. Could you recommend any brands and models of that particular card? I find many different ones, different memory setups and such, which are the key features I would want in a good 800GTO card?

[hockey man]

Some good manufactureres are eVGA, Saphire, Leadtech, Gigabyte to name a few.

[skallben]

What about the memory on the cards, I take it I shouldnt get a 128mb one. Also there are different types of memory on the different manufacturers variants on the card, DDR, GDDR2, GDDR3 etc. Id like some basic info if someone would be as kind :)
Ive been trying to find any recourses on internet about different AGP cards on t he market, trying to get some kind of reviews with comparasions but I cant find one thats up to date.

[skallben]

Ok, Im starting to spam my own thread here, I had some time to do some more searching today ;)

I saw that ATIs X1600 pro cards are really cheap here, also I found a couple of very interesting cards on auction, within my price range.

First one is this, which have only been use for 1 month and warranty is included: http://www.powercolor.com/global/main_product_detail.asp?id=67
Correct me if Im wrong but this seems to be a VERY good deal, its just a gut feeling though :)

Second is this "Gainward 6800GT AGP". I couldnt find that model on Gainwards site.

It would be great if someone could give me a little advice here and help me compare these cards.

Thank you,
Skallben

[Deagle]

The 1st card that you gave link to is the X850XT and it's a powerful card, neck to neck with Nvidia's 7800GS if you don't take SM3 into account.http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/wink.gif
It will definitely beat the Gainward 6800GT in performance. Take a look at this here benchmark (http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/07/05/vga_charts_vii/page9.html), it shows how both of these perform in the game DOOM III. This is a game that heavily favors Nvidia over ATi yet the X850XT performs better than the 6800GT. You can also look at other games to compare these two.

[saphalline]

The X1600 Pro is pathetic compared to the XT version. That's why the Pro is cheaper (oddly enough for a "Pro" ranking) but I wouldn't recommend it. Efficient architecture for shader-intensive games, the Pro just isn't worth the money compared to the XT.

The X800 GTO is nice, but it does lack the sheer power of the X850 XT and 6800 GT. All 3 of these are way too old for the PCIe crowd, but you have to take what you can get with AGP. Before you make a decision, however, tell us the specs on your PSU. There should be a sticker on the side that says "+3.3V 30A max" and stuff like that. Post all that info here. It will be very important to take the PSU into consideration, or else you'll end up having to return a vid card for a lower-powered one or buying a new PSU to support the new vid card. :rolleyes:

The X800 GTO is light enough that it will probably work either way, but the other two are power-sapping 16 pipe chips that will crash a system with a lesser PSU.

[skallben]

Opened the box and checked. Got the following
voltage peak max
+3.3V 28A 18A
+5v 35A 25A
+12 16A 12A
-5 1A 0.5A
-12 1A 0.5A

Got one DVD-recorder(use that for reading aswell)
AMD 2800 processor
512mb RAM module
256mb RAM module
Western Digital Caviar 120 gb HD
some crappy PCI networks card and onboard sound card
Right now Radeon 9600pro, obviously not there if I replace it :)

Also, got a related question here, my brother want to do the same thing as me and his setup is almost similar, two exceptions though:
He have 2 Harddrives, one is pretty old
He have 1 CD writer and 1 DVD reader

[saphalline]

Ooh, relatively low amps for modern vid cards. You've basically got 330W of standard usable power.

The X850 XT would consume the most power, followed closely by the 6800 GT (about 3-6% less). The X800 GTO would consume far less power and would work just fine in there. The other two are questionable. They would probably work, but you might be pushing your PSU at that point. And if it's not a high quality name brand unit, you don't want to push it too hard.

[skallben]

Suspected as such. Its not a quality brand.
I eventually found a buyer for my old card also. Which means I could push my budget and buy a 7800GS instead. Found out about it yesterday http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/319/1/
This would be for the sake of Pixel Shader 3 and most importantly what comes with it, HDR.

So now the question is, will I need a new PSU for this card then? Probably eh?

[saphalline]

None of us mentioned the 7800 GS before because it was out of your price range. Oh, SM 3.0 and HDR is common to all of the other vid cards, too. It's just that the other ones can't do HDR at respectable frame rates. ;)

Yes, the 7800 GS still uses the 110nm G70 GPU, and it's a power guzzler! Anything higher than a Radeon X800 GT or a GeForce 6600 GT would mean a new PSU.

[skallben]

Well, the more I learn about this it seems that the gain when stepping up in prices is almost exponential :)
Ill give it some time and do some more digging meanwhile I ponder it. However, I thought that 850xt couldnt handle either PS3 or HDR?
About prices btw, are they likely to fall now that they release so many new cards? Or will that just affect the PCIe cards?

[skallben]

Update, I just got a mail from the guy with the 850xt.
I basically got three options now. All are with freight included:

Low budget choice, I get a x800GTO either Connect3D or Sapphire for 230$.

Second option:
Second hand, but only used 1 month and never clocked, warranty and receit included, Powercolor x850XT VIVO for 245$ BUT, I need a new PSU so we have to add another 65$ so totally, 310$

Third option:
GeForce 7800GS for 360$, with new PSU, 425$.

Keep in mind I will likely not upgrade my system for quite a while after this except some memory. So in what order would you rank them in bang-for-buck order? And what about PS3 and HDR, only card here that supports it would be
7800GS right?

[skallben]

Decided to go for the badass option, 7800GS, way over my initially intended budget but I decided its worth it. Just waiting for a new shipment to hit the stores now :) There's just one last remaining question, the PSU.

Since I will probably not upgrade my system with anything else than more memory before building a completely new one I dont really need a extremely good one. I scoped out this:
NorthQ 4001EXT, Silent ATX 400W, 140mm Fan
12 db so its very silent. Also a a user review on the stores site says he runs a 7800GS on this one. I just figured I wanted a last expert advice here, is NorthQ known to make good PSUs and will this be enough for me?
And thanks again for all advice Ive gotten here :)

[saphalline]

Since I will probably not upgrade my system with anything else than more memory before building a completely new one I dont really need a extremely good one.Oh really!? :eek: You don't need a good PSU? So then you like the possibility of your new system having stability problems, dirty power, and perhaps even fried components?

Most newbies building a gaming system make this one big mistake. They get an expensive vid card and CPU, and then get a cheap PSU and wonder why their games always crash. :rolleyes: Good quality PSU's aren't just about wattage. They're about high amps on the important rails, the most recent ATX spec, and reliable clean power output up to a 90% load (100%+ costs extra). I won't even bore you with the problems associated with bad PSU's. You can do a search here on the forums, on Google, or on any of the tech sites for further investigation.

I've never heard of NorthQ, which probably means they aren't any good. I can't tell, though, because you didn't give a link to the PSU. I'll hazard a guess and say that PSU is a piece of cr@p, but I won't know for certain until I see the specs. Do you know the rails on it? Do you know how much it is? If it's less than $35, it probably doesn't deserve to power that nice 7800 GS of yours. Proper amounts of electricity are extremely important to a PC, and a new ATX 12V 2.01+ PSU will be fully compatible with any new hardware, so why skimp?

PSU's get no respect...

[skallben]

PSU's get no respect...
Misunderstanding :)
What I meant was that I dont need an uber-PSU, I just want a reliable PSU that doesnt sound like an aeroplane. No fancy 600W with blue lights in :p

Here are links to the NorthQ PSU variants:

http://www.northq.com/products/powersupply/nq4911.html
http://www.northq.com/products/powersupply/nq4001at.html
http://www.northq.com/products/powersupply/nq4001al.html
http://www.northq.com/products/powersupply/nq4001bx.html
http://www.northq.com/products/powersupply/nq4001ext.html

If these doesnt cut it I think Ill get this which someone recommended me but its a tad more expansive:
http://www.datorbutiken.com/se/default.php?artId=HIPTR480WBL

oops, that was in swedish - here's another link in english
http://www.hipergroup.com/English/products/hpu-4m480.html

Update:
Found this and I read some good review but I dont know the numbers well so Id like an opinion on this one aswell please
http://www.qtechnology.net/html/en/psu_index/qt03400gp.htm
http://www.qtechnology.net/html/en/psu_index/qt03400g.htm

[skallben]

Meh, I just got told that my CPU(AMD XP 2700+) will be a huge bottleneck and that I waste my money if I buy a 7800GS.. Can you guys straighten this out for me please, Im confused.

[saphalline]

Meh, I just got told that my CPU(AMD XP 2700+) will be a huge bottleneck and that I waste my money if I buy a 7800GS.Who told you that!? They obviously don't know what they're talking about (or at least not entirely). An AthlonXP 2800+ is not the fastest of the bunch these days, but it's still more than powerful enough for modern gaming if you have a good vid card to back it up. Vid cards are the gaming bottleneck, not CPU's.

What are the prices for all those PSU's? I don't trust NorthQ, though, if only because they don't have specs for their PSU's on their own website! :eek: Out of the ones you linked to, that "Hiper" one looks to be the best. But I've never heard of any of those manufacturers so I can't comment on the reliability. I usually stick with the big list - Antec, PC Power & Cooling (a bit out of your price range I assume), Enermax, Seasonic (also a bit out of your price range), and Thermaltake. Tom's Hardware had that article series on PSU stress testing - very informative if you want to look it up.

[skallben]

Thanks alot for all your help, you have been a great help Saphalline (you others too :) ) its now ordered and done with. Hoping to go to my local post office and pick up one box with a 7800gs card and one with the Hiper PSU. I feel good about this and I can live with spending a few extra bucks for getting quality :)

Ill get back to this thread after the installation and some testing just to share the results for others with the same questions, seems to rain threads like this :)

[skallben]

The performance is outstanding and lightyears better than my old ATI 9600pro, only problem was that I got a card with a small error and I have to RMA it. The model itself though, the 7800GS is an outstanding card and I recommend it to anyone who's considering getting their last AGP card before AGP is truly dead.