At the end of my rope: Pentium 4

[fcostanzo]

I have an emachine T2240. It has a TriGem Imperial 1.07 motherboard. I upgraded to 512 RAM. When I install the 478 pin Pent 4 2.40aGhz, 533Mhz, 1MB CPU, nothing comes on except the power fan ( not the heatsink fan) What's happening and why won't this work.

PC Wizard and other sources all show the motherboard should be able to handle the 533mhz. The BIOS is flashable but I haven't been able to locate an upgrade from the PhoenixBIOS 4.0 Release 6.0.

Can someone out there lend me some advice? Do I need more RAM? Suggestions?

Thanks,

Frank

[Erik]

What kind of CPU was in the PC before the upgrade?

Also sometimes these OEMs use slightly different processors, I seem to remember having seen a Gateway that took a 477 pin P4.

Is everything getting enough power? Are all of the connections good?

[saphalline]

478 pin Pent 4 2.40aGhz, 533Mhz, 1MB CPUThere's your problem. I'm guessing that mobo uses an older chipset? And I'm guessing that it only supports Northwood core P4's? Yeah, you bought a Prescott P4. So unless the BIOS upgrade provides support for the Prescott's, you'll have to return that CPU and get an older core revision, like a Northwood B (those use the 533 FSB).

[fcostanzo]

Thanks for the reply Erik. It was a Intel Celeron. Pins are OK. How would I know if it's getting enough power....or needs more?

[fcostanzo]

saph,

I think you're right. I knew there was a diff between Prescott and Northwood but wasn't clear on what it was. rookie mistake. Hopefully newegg will swap.

thanks

[rond36]

Hello fcostanzo, and welcome to The PC Guide Forums.

Newegg doesn't have any Northwood core P4 processors in stock and the listings have been removed so they won't be back in stock.

Before you get another processor that you can't use find out if your BIOS will support a 533 FSB processor. The processor that you removed was a 400 FSB Celeron. You may need a P4A Northwood good luck finding one of those.

[fcostanzo]

rond

Man, you guys have really been helpful. I posted on another board (where ironically they were complaining about how "dead their board was") and they spent plenty of of finger-time typing trash about emachines. You all on the other hand have put me on the right path. Thanks. As a return gesture, I'm a lawyer specializing in copyright, patent, corporate start-up, etc. If you guys need some advice on business ventures or IP please email me I'd like to return the favor.

Frank
frankATvmbs247DOTcom

Edited to obscure email address...

[saphalline]

Woah! Take off the email, dude! Or put it in another format. Something like frank -at- vmbs -dot- com. Makes it so that the crawling spam bots/daemons can't just pluck your email address off a public website like this, but it still lets us know what your email address is.

You are welcome! We always strive to be the best (or one of the best) around here.

[rond36]

How did I edit my post with 2 subsequent posts.

Not supposed to be able to do that.

[saphalline]

I've noticed I can do that every now and then, also. I don't know, maybe a bug in the VBulletin software? :confused:

[fcostanzo]

Thanks for the spam tip. FYI: I picked up an Intel Pentium 4 Northwood 2.8GHz, 533MHz, 512KB, 478 last night on Ebay. I have a P4 heatsink ready for it when it gets here. I'll let you all know how it goes.

(I checked earlier and the mobo can accomodate 533. do you expect I'll need to do anything to "set" the BIOS from 440 to 533?)

[fcostanzo]

PS Current BIOS is PhoenixBIOS 4.0 Release 6.0. PC Wizard states the mobo is flashable. CPUID id's the mobo as 400/533.

[rond36]

The mother board should detect the processor and set the FSB to the correct speed. If not you may need to go into BIOS setup and change the system clock from 100MHz to 133MHz or there may be a jumper on the motherboard.

FYI: The FSB for a P4 is the system clock X 4 ie... 4 X 133 = 532 ~ 533 FSB

I personally wouldn't buy anything off Ebay it's to easy to get ripped off, but that is just my opinion.

If you don't get that one you can get at Ajump.com (http://www.ajump.com/ajump/product.asp?dept%5Fid=2526&pf%5Fid=6A40357&sku=99%2D99%2D99%2D99%2D99%2D6A40357)

The P4 2.8B 478-pin, 512K cache, 533Mhz FSB is the fastest processor that your motherboard can fully support.

You may be able to use a P4 3.06 478-pin, 512K cache, 533Mhz FSB with Hyper Threading but HT will be disabled because your motherboard doesn't support HT.

[saphalline]

4 X 133 = 532 ~ 533 FSBIt's not a flat 133, though. Not many people know that. It's actually 133.3333... repeating - a ratio actually. 400/3. So it's 4 x (400/3) = 1600/3 = 533.3333...

Same with CPU speeds. The 3.06 P4 actually runs at 3.0666666... GHz.

[rond36]

You may be right saph and the multiplier for the 3.06 is 23 and 133 X 23 = 3059MHz = 3.059GHz.

The system clock, FSB, and operating freq are almost never advertised using exact values. The default for my P4 3.2C 800MHz FSB Northwood system clock = 199.90, FSB = 799.61, operating freq = 3198.33MHz and the default for my daughters P4 2.0A 400MHz FSB Northwood system clock = 99.95, FSB = 399.8, operating freq = 1999MHz

BTW my daughters system has the same limitations as his and I am going to buy one of those 2.8B Northwoods at Ajump for her system.

fcostanzo, I found the user guide, drivers, and system specs (http://www.emachines.com/support/product_support.html?cat=Desktops&subcat=T-Series&model=T2240) for your system there wasn't any BIOS update so there probably isn't any available. All of the drivers are original release so there isn't any updated drivers either. I also found where you can order replacement parts and upgrades (http://parts.emachines.com/emachines/sys_lookup.asp) for your system.

PS; We only bash eMachines, Dell, and HP if someone is thinking about buying one :D

If someone already has one we try to help them make it better or fix what is broken ;)

[fcostanzo]

Rond and saph,

Thanks for all the help. I'll keep you in the loop as things progress. I previously jotted down the id's on the dip switches should I need to jump. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will ramp up to 533 on its own. The TriGem description of the board says "400/533"...I'm hoping that indicates its ready for 533....we'll soon see. I have Intel P4 fan ready, just waiting on the chip.

Although I got it on Ebay, it's a reputable seller with warranty etc. Plus if they screw me I have the means of making their lives difficult. (Perk of being a lawyer.)

As for the Emachine...I agree I'd never buy one...a client of mine was updating his company's computer system and was literally throwing away three T2240's. So as a free-bee, whatever I put into it to make it better is bonus.

That upgrade/replacement link was great. Thanks.
PS. Your explanation of FSB system clocks is the clearest I've ever read.

[saphalline]

You shouldn't need to set any jumpers or DIP switches, it should be auto-detected. Just plop it in and go. I haven't had to set any jumpers on a new mobo for years.

Oh, a free computer, eh? That's awesome! :D Well ok then, no need to rant about buying OEM. And by the way, have you upgraded the RAM yet? Or was it upgraded when you got it? Because 128MB really isn't enough for WinXP. 256MB should be the minimum, with 512MB being recommended for power users and 1GB for gamers.

[fcostanzo]

Man, i hope so.

I upgraded RAM to 512 as soon as I got it. I have an open slot that I'm thinking about putting in another 512. i also burn a lot of material to CD so I added a combo DVD RW drive. Power is stock 250w. I'm starting to get concerned about maxing it out. With the network card and this P4...I'm guessing I'm up around 230+

[fcostanzo]

Good news is I received the P4 installed it and the computer (sounds like) its booting when I turn it on. About two or three seconds into the boot, there are two series of beeps that come through the speakers. Beep pause BeepBeepBeep x2. Then all goes silent except for the power and processor fans.

I took the liberty of reproducing the jump settings below.


Jump Pin Function 1-2* 2-3

J1 FDD write protect Normal Write Prot

J2 Password Control Enable Disable

J3 CMOS Setup Enable Disable

J4 CMOS clear Normal CMOS clear

* Factory Default

[Whyzman]

Here's BIOS beep codes:

http://www.pchell.com/hardware/beepcodes.shtml

[fcostanzo]

whyz,

Thanks. That series of beeps was for a BIOS problem. I just bought the BIOS update from http://www.esupport.com

Not cheap but hopefully it will be effective. They confirmed my FSB can handle upto 533. The problem is my BIOS version doesn't work with XP's handshake for new device ID'ing. Rep said somehting about IRQ. Does this all sound legit? esupport guarantees it will work with my Phoenix board and Pentium 4 Northwood 2.8GHz, 533MHz, 512KB, 478.

I'm going to do the BIOS this eve.

[fcostanzo]

I'm about to give up on this venture. I bought the Phoenix update BIOS that is reportedly designed to make it so my T2240 can support P4 533. After a number of problems I finally got it installed.

I pop in the P4 and...nothing. esupport (who sold me the BIOS) said its clearly a FSB issue (tech specs on board say "400/533" and esupports' tech sheet says the board can handle 533.) However, there are no jump switches and the BIOS has no frequency setting so...basically I'm screwed.

Any thoughts? Possible solutions?

I have a Phoenix BIOS and TriGem Imperial motherboard.

Frank

[mjc]

First thing that comes to mind...after all the playing around you've done, try wiping the current settings for the BIOS and letting it redetect everything. Jumper J4 is the one you want for this...set it over to the "Clear" position, wait a few minutes, flip it back and hopefully you'll be back in business.

[fcostanzo]

So you're saying put in the P-4, flip the jumper let it clear the cmos, flip it back then boot it up. Right? OK I'll try it. Thanks

[fcostanzo]

mjc,

PS. T. Paine fan I see...here's my favorite from Rights of Man (No.11)

"The unrestrained communication of thoughts and opinions being one of the most precious rights of man, every citizen may speak, write and publish freely..."

[mjc]

You got it...often times when switching a CPU the autodetect feature just doesn't and you end up with all sorts of errors until you manually reset the BIOS settings.

[fcostanzo]

Didn't work. Now I'm at a crossroad. Should I ditch the idea that this thing will ever work in it's present config.? Is my only option a new mobo? Assuming the thing was free and up to now I've invested $107 in a cpu and $40 on Ram...(kudos to esupport for refunding my $50 for the BIOS since it didn't do what they said it would/should)...what's my best course of action?. My initial goal was to take what seemed to be an 4-5 year old averagely equipped PC (emachine T2240) and tweek it to 2006 standards....more RAM, network card, DVD-RW, cooling and cpu upgrade. The barrier I guess is the mobo, right?

How technical of a job is swapping boards for a newbe that isn't afraid to take things apart?

[jlreich]

My initial goal was to take what seemed to be an 4-5 year old averagely equipped PC (emachine T2240) and tweek it to 2006 standards....more RAM, network card, DVD-RW, cooling and cpu upgrade. The barrier I guess is the mobo, right?
:eek: You have your work cut out for you right there. Trying to make a 4 or 5 year old computer come up to 2006 standards? No way it can be done IMO. There has been way to many advancements.

Add in the fact that it is an OEM and an eMachine really kills things right now. OEM's cut corners and the mobo is the biggest one. They usually use a mobo that is already yesterdays technology and cripple the features to boot. So now that 4 or 5 year old machine is really more like 5 or 6 years old in terms of the mobo. Which really kills any upgrade potential.

Now I am not saying an old machine like that can't be useful. I have several old machines like that get some use. Even if it's just browsing the internet when all the other computers are in use.

[saphalline]

what's my best course of action?At this point, you have to decide how much more money you want to spend on this thing. Do you want to keep working on it? Do you want to scrounge what parts you can to build a separate system? Or do you want to give up and move on with your life?

You've invested a good chunk of money as of right now, and a lot of people like to keep spending to make their investment worthwhile. But you have step back right now and figure out what you want. If you have to replace the mobo in that system, then you'll either need to pay more for an exact replacement, or buy a standard mobo and probably need to replace the case & PSU as well. The implications of replacing the mobo in an OEM machine are... problematic.

[mjc]

Most eMachines cases are roomy enough to allow for expansion, but the power supplies are definitely a weak link and there tends to be very little room for a new one.

Also, remember, being an off the shelf machine the OS is tied to it in ways that make it nearly impossible to restore once you swap the motherboard.

[saphalline]

Yes, good point about the OS. Because of the legal implications (even beyond the technical ones) I would even go so far as to say that replacing the mobo necessitates buying a new copy of Windows. The copy that came with the system from EMachines is tied to that collection of hardware. Legally speaking, you must buy a new copy if you change enough of the components.

[fcostanzo]

Gotcha. I guess I'll have to look at this pragmatically...which is to say I'm not going to throw good $ after bad. The upside is though that I have a working well equipped emachine that has the extra bells and whistles of DVD-WR, xtra RAM, better cooling, updates BIOS.

I really thought jumping the CMOS would have done it. It made sense. That and the specs all say the board would handle 533. Oh well. Know anyone who wants a P4 CPU on the cheap? lol

Thanks again for all your input.

Best,

Frank

[fcostanzo]

As a last ditch, I emailed emachine's tech support and asked them if my machine can be upgraded to a P4 cpu. The response is as follows:

Thank you for your e-mail.

I see that you want to upgrade the CPU on your T2240 eMachines System
to
Pentium 4 533mhz processor.

I understand how this interest you and I am more than willing to
provide
you with the information that you need.

The ImperialGL motherboard manufactured by TriGem International of your
system supports Intel® processors in the mPGA 478 pin package running
at
400 MHz system bus with an integrated 256K L2 cache.

Supported Intel 478 Pin Package Processors: Willamette and Northwood

We apologize if we cannot provide you with the exact make and model of
the processors that your system supports. I suggest that you visit the
Intel website for the most up-to-date list of supported processors of
your system based on the information above.

Seems like my Northwood should work right?

[jlreich]

The ImperialGL motherboard manufactured by TriGem International of your system supports Intel® processors in the mPGA 478 pin package running
at 400 MHz system bus with an integrated 256K L2 cache.
It says in the email that it can use a P4 @ 400MHz. If it doesn't support 533MHz there's not much you can do. The BIOS upgrade didn't work and that's about only thing that might have helped. :(

For a free machine it's still not bad at all. Plop that celery back in there and go with it. :)

Most of the freebies I get are P2's and Pentium's. I got a slot1 P3 450Mhz not long ago. First time I have seen one in person. It was kind of exciting. :p I installed win98 on it yesterday and it's running great. :cool:

[saphalline]

Yeah, looks like EMachines says the 533 FSB isn't supported. That's quite odd. Where on the computer does it say 400/533?

[fcostanzo]

PC Wizard printout

[saphalline]

Ah, I was under the impression that the EMachines PC itself told you somewhere that the 533 FSB was supported. If it just came from PC Wizard then... yeah...

What happened there is that PC Wizard is giving you the technical capabilities of that chipset. The chipset in that EMachines is capable of the 533 FSB, but EMachines locked the BIOS to only use the 400 FSB. So although the 533 FSB is theoretically supported, EMachines pulled the ol' OEM trick by crippling the BIOS. This is why we don't like OEM systems around here - they limit what little upgrade potential you might have. Another upgrade-related OEM limitation is including only 2 RAM slots, whereas the chipset may be capable of supporting 3 or 4. Little things like this really ruin the computing experience, IMO.

[mjc]

And before you ask...

No, finding an non-crippled BIOS to use isn't an option.

One problem is that once flashed with a non-stnadard BIOS there is no going back. That means the little code thatis included in the BIOS to designate it as an OEM and tied to the restore disk/partition will no longer be there and you will not be able to reinstall your OS with whatever eMachines provided you with to do so.

That, of course, doesn't take into account that the motherboard wasn't crippled in some other way and the functionality you were looking for still isn't available.

Sometimes you get lucky and the board will be 'unlocked', but generally that isn't the case and I wouldn't try it unless it was on a machine that was going to be used solely for experimenting on.

[jlreich]

Another upgrade-related OEM limitation is including only 2 RAM slots, whereas the chipset may be capable of supporting 3 or 4. Little things like this really ruin the computing experience, IMO.
Oh I hate that. Especially when you can see the leads on the mobo where the ram slots should be, and they are even labeled DIMM0-DIMM1. But they just didn't spend the extra nickel to put the actual slot in. :rolleyes: