Win ME question...

[CLTEK]

I've never worked with the OS. I've used MS Win 3.1, 95, 98, 98SE, NT4 and Win2K. As time has progressed, I've been dissatisfied with each as I got to know them.

But nowadays, I'm working on building my own system and, until now, I was set on Win '98SE because of compatability and familiarity issues to use in my home recording studio as well as for webdesign and photoediting.

Until last night, I wouldn't even consider Win ME because of all of the bad things that I've read about it. But I was talking to a friend of mine who makes a living doing web design and music production for a living. He's on that darn machine of his sometimes for 20 hours a day. He's running ME with an oc'd P3 500 and he's never had a 'hang' or a 'crash'. How is it that he hasn't had any problems with the OS when all I read are horror stories?

He said that all of his sound and video cards work great. No problems with any of his Web software. No problems with any of his music prodction software. How can this be? He says he set it up right out of the box with a few tweaks when he does music stuff. That's it!

I'm baffled.

Anyone actually happy with WinME?

Respectfully, Cory




------------------
Age and Treachery will forever triumph over Youth and Skill.

[mjc]

For some reason, from some posts I've seen elswhere, ME seems to be OC friendly (like people running it on an OC machine have a great time-if they can get working the first time) and like lots of memory (if he's got more than 128MB then that may help). Also there are certain hardware items that it likes better than others. If some of his tweaks "reigned in" things like system restore and some of the other features then that'll help too.

But most of the "improvements" in ME can be had for 98 (DX8-WMP7-IE5.5), there are of coursse things like system restore that can't be added. One of my major gripes is that is so much slower, my father-in-law's machine is faster than mine (essentially the same but just faster) he has ME , I've got 98 and his machine is noticeably slower not just on boot up but all the time. His machine is not very 'tweaked' so it is pretty much stock and he has his share of crashes and hangs so I don't see that much of a stability increase either.

I guess I feel that the price and way MS went about it also are a sticking point, but if your going new and fresh then the update price doesn't really matter.

------------------
mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

[Randy_tx]

I would not want to install a OS that is slooooooow, requires a ton of RAM, has documented compatibility problems with many devices, is sloooow and couldnt be fixed with a Service Update. If the desire is mainly to have the "Latest & Greatest"....wait for XP. Win98 can do ANYthing Me can do (except the restore which I'm told rarely works), and do it faster http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Will XP save Me ?

[hiredgoonz]

In all fairness to WinME, it boots faster than 98...and in my experience with it, it was a little more adept at handling program crashes...it actually recovered from some bsods when I hit "any key to continue"...never had 98 do that successfully...

It has a few "friendlier" features than 98 for installing devices and as far as it being slower than 98...we're talking a difference that only shows up in benchmarks and is negligible...I don't care what anyone SAYS, you can not tell that it runs slower...

That said, I wouldn't buy it at this point, with XP coming later this year...but if someone gave you a copy, you shouldn't be afraid to try it...

[mjc]

Hired,

I must not be human then because I can notice differences, play solitare on 98 the cards just seem to flow when the piles are completed in ME they kind of stutter away. Other apps that I have on my machine (98) and on my father-in-laws machine (ME) are noticeably faster on my machine. Maybe because I'm not running 'stock' 98se but well tweaked, I don't know for sure, but in my experience ME is slower.

------------------
mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

[hiredgoonz]

I don't need to remind you that comparing results from one computer to another is not an accurate way to compare the performance of two operating systems...if you were talking about fresh installs on the same computer and noticed differences that would be one thing...

ME is slower (as a result of system restore running in the background), but the difference should not be noticeable (in the real world, not benchmarks) on any relatively new system...I find it very hard to believe that anyone could tell the performance difference between 98se and ME given equal systems that are not pushing the low end of the system requirements...

I think the "to the last man" defense of 98se on this board by several people is pretty funny...personally, I like Win ME better than 98, in my experience, it was easier to use and more stable, but I like 2000 better than either...gripe all you want about compatibility...if you do your homework, you won't have any more trouble with 2000 than any other M$ OS...

Any computer that has come out in the last year is limited primarily by the person operating it, not the hardware or OS...I know what you mean about solitaire though, I hate it when the cards don't move smoothly http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

I really think ME got an undeservedly bad reputation and the arguments for 98se are just ridiculous at this point...it's still based on dos (ME suffers from this also), it's still unreliable and it's going to be phased out...yeah if you spend tons of time tweaking it, etc. it's great, you know what I like to do? Use my computer, not prepare it for use.

2000 runs better and more stably out of the box than any "tweaked" 98 system I've ever seen...

And I also think that some people here have forgotten that at one point they didn't know anything either and had to learn...for a beginner, ME is a much better OS than 98se...it was designed to be that way...ME is no worse an OS than 98se, but you'd think the amd/intel debate was going on when you start to compare them...

[mjc]

Hired,

OK, point taken.

But my real sticking point now is the cost/benefit factor, if you are doing a fresh install on a new machine then ok (I'll bite my tongue and grin as I say this--I still don't like ME that much bad first impression...), but if you are just doing it because it is the latest and greatest, then no. Driver support has gotten better over the last few months, most majors have at least one and in some cases more driver updates, so that is less of a problem.

So while on some systems it is incredibly stable while others, crash and burn is the norm, I think is more than just driver problems, could be the different manufacturing runs or something but I seen other people like youself that have had no problems with it. So maybe the early runs are were the problems lie and now things have improved....

As to Win 2k , no arguements there, I haven't personally used 2k (no need that I can see -- can't justify the expense for home use) but people like my insurance agent who use 2k at work and 98 at home can't say enough nice things about it.....

Of course this is all going to be a moot point when both 98 and ME (oh, 2K too) are replaced by XP, which is still very scary (the "activation" and all).

Oh aren't Cyrix the best? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
(please don't reply to this last line it is for fun only)

------------------
mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

[sea69]

hehe gotta add my 2¢

brand new gateway:- pentium III 6xxMhz, 64MB sdram winME.(a)

freshly installed (by me)Win98se compaq:- K6-2- 533Mhz, 64MB sdram. (b)

both just standard off the shelf systems.

boot time (complete boot no 'hour glass') :

(a)= 68 seconds

(b)= 49seconds

Word, opens instantly on win98, winME hesitation.. as well as just about ANY other app.

I think that allot has to do with which version too. The FULL Version seems to be much better than the OEM.

CLTEK- I would find out which version of ME your friend has and see if he could 'lend' it to you. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

additionally, make sure to have at least 128 ram (suggestion) I bet he does. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

not trying to have a slamfest on ME.. thats been done to death.. I say, if you have it and want to try it, and it's not going to cost you anything, then go for it.

otherwise, there isn't enough 'improvement' to justify paying for it.

------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 05-01-2001).]

[pavermech]

Hi guys!
Not trying to defend ME, just tell about my experience with it. I have an HP 400mgz with 191mgb ram that came with Win 98SE that crashed A LOT! I recieved a copy of ME upgrade as a gift from a friend and figured what the heck, try it. I don't have hardly any crashes anymore. Sometimes my comp stays on for several days without having to restart it at all. I have not any hardware problems, or any other problems to speak of with the OS. I have not noticed that it runs slower, although I don't play games or do any kind of processor intensive work on this computer. I have found very few programs that I tried to install that would not work with ME. And the system restore is a godsend at times. I've had to use it twice and it saved me from the major ordeal of having to use the HP system restore disks that came with the machine. Another great thing about system restore is that you can set a restore point when you are about to make major changes to your system and if there is a goof, you can reset everything back to the way it was with just a click. Anyway that is my experience with the OS, purely for informational purposes only! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Have a great day! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"Beam me up, Scotty--no intelligent life here"

[Icy]

In my opinion (I run the floor for a tech support center for HP) I loathe ME. It seemed to me to just be 98 with a large batch of bugs, sloppy design, and terrible structure with no improvements to make it worthwhile.

There are only two good improvements in my opinion

1) The much easier file extraction utility in msconfig
2) The greatly expanded range of dates in the system restore (previously scanreg) from only seven days to ANY previous successful boot.

Those two features don't justify the cost or headaches for me at all.

My biggest complaints are far to numerous but the top are:
1) The constant kernell32 errors that occur
2) The lack of DOS support (I have many Dos based programs that I'm missing)
3) The lack of proper USB support (at least in HP's and this was corrected with a patch rather quickly)

This list could go on and on if I wanted to waste my time complaining with nobody here able to help resolve it. All in all I feel that it was more of a ploy to keep microsoft in the public eye as well as fat in the wallet. No offense if you disagree just my opinion after all.

I should state however that the upcoming Windows XP OS seems to be a different story. I have had the opportunity to beta test it for several weeks now and am kinda scared to admit that it has grown on me a little. Given that it is only a beta version (so I'm lacking most drivers and some of the true functionality) but I must say it may give me some faith in Microsoft again.

For those of you that haven't had the opportunity to see XP then I will give you some of my more noticed points of improvement.
1) It has a CD Burning utility made by roxio (previously adaptec) built into Windows Media Player.
2) It's built on the NT/2000 kernell so it is supposedly (not heavily tested but noticed) much more stable.
3) It comes with a user interface very similar to Linex for seperate user log on's.
4) It has a very fresh (a little hard to get used to) new look for the desktop. Also an option to run like the classic if you don't like it.
5) It has many internet customizations than other Microsoft OS's (includes a firewall)
6) And last but not truly (just the last I'll bore you with) it has an option to fix itself by transferring missing or corrupted files from another unit with XP installed over the net (this could be a back door for hackers though).

Enough from me already.

------------------
ICY

[kayofcircles]

Icy: Any chance that you could go to Oregon and help my poor uncle "fix" that HP he bought in January running ME? He is 77, and if ME is supposed to be easier for beginners, he sure hasn't noticed it. He's hard of hearing and so it is difficult for him to call you. He's been getting error messages since the get go, including (my favorite) "Your hard drive is not configured properly." We still think he should wipe everything and start over with 98 which he had on his old puter, but he would doze off long before all that got done, and I have to admit that the whole "restore" thing is still beyond my understanding. Read something in this forum yesterday about a Compaq needing a Restore disc.

Pleeeeezzzzz? Would really appreciate it.

[bassman]

Hey big Cor,
Did you get the answer you were looking for? I'm with Hired on this one. I have 2 machines running ME and have not seen the volume of problems that others have. I like it and would recommend it. As a matter of fact I am doing a new build now and that is what I told the customer I wanted to put in it.
Pricewise, shop around. There are some great prices thru some of the sites regularly posted here.
As for XP, well, isn't that going to be a brand new OS. I realize it is supposed to be tested more, but I will be watching closely to see how well it flies out of the box.
I'm almost ashamed to see my comrads bickering about a card game as a benchmark http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif LOL
For me, 2000 looks to be an excellent OS. Wish I had a use for all of it's features. I would use it at home.
ME is a step on the non-dos, non-legacy path. You will pay a bit more for it and some of the apps. to go with it (most are already compatible) but on a new system I would recommend it. If you can wait, you might want to check out XP, as it seems to have quite a following already.
good luck

------------------
They say to eat before you go to the grocery store so you don't buy so much. That doesn't work at the liquor store does it!

[This message has been edited by bassman (edited 05-12-2001).]

[CLTEK]

Ahh Hah!

Wow. Thanks to everyone for your comments and criticisms (constructive and otherwise. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif ).

An unexpected rash of financial problems have hit the household very hard. So, *EVERYTHING* is on hold. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif Thanks to every single one of you for your help. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Just a thought... I hate to use the word 'sucks' in a general sense. Basically because the word has such a negativity connected to it. Not only that, the word is most frequently used in cahoots with an 'opinion'. Kinda like when one of your friends tells you, "Dude. Aerosmith *SUCKS*!" That statement demonstrates nothing more than an individual's opinion. Purely subjective. 'Art' can not suck. *You* may not like it. But it doesn't suck. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

However, sitting here at the terminal, I've decided that the word 'sucks' can indeed be used... As long as it's attached to a universal truth such as "Did you here? Cory got hit by a train." Now THAT... Sucks. It's a universal truth.

The truth at hand? Money problems *SUCK*!!!! That's a universal truth, right? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif LMAO

Have an outrageously bitchen day, folks! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Much respect, Cory

------------------
Age and Treachery will forever triumph over Youth and Skill.

[This message has been edited by CLTEK (edited 05-14-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

I am in total agreement, Cory! Having to pay bills when you yearn to buy new puter parts does, without question, SUCK.

On the ME question, I saw some advice about waiting until they gets the bugs worked out which I think is most practical. If you're comfy with 98se, why switch?

[CLTEK]

Hey there Kay...

Why would I change?

Truth?! 'Cuz change is good. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif LOL

It's just a consideration. The primary motivation is the 'new' system. I'd like to start off with a 'new' OS so it would be a completely 'new' machine. 'Cuz ya know... <insert lame southern accent> If'n I had da money, I'd buy me a new car just so's I could git summa dat jin-u-ine new car smell! LOL

Respectfully, Big Cor

------------------
Age and Treachery will forever triumph over Youth and Skill.

[sea69]

hehehe.. is you a pickin' at us southern boys ?????????

why I aughtta........

lol

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)

[Paleo Pete]

Ah'm afeared ah'm a gonna haf ta dispute that...seem to me Meryland is off'n to the north of tha Mason-Dixon line a fer peice there pahdnah... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Now don'tcha be gittin' no brite idees here sonny, Ah dun spied me a cactus patch... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

------------------
So many idiots, and only six bullets...
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)



[This message has been edited by Paleo Pete (edited 05-14-2001).]

[sea69]

lmao.. way off topic.. 'Texas_Style'... hehehe http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

what was the topic again..??

"they calls me sunny cause im brite".....

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)

[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 05-14-2001).]

[Icy]

Well Kay I wouldn't be able to go there but as an alternative he could go through our E-mail support. It can be accessed through HP.com and was implemented just for situations like this. All he would have to do is make sure the unit is registered with us, send an E-mail through the site and our E-mail team will take care of the rest. Policy states that responses are are made within 24 hours of arrival in our system. This support department also is required to assist individuals that are out of warrenty (HP offers a one year warrenty starting from date of purchase)customers free troubleshooting (phone support charges $25.00). A fact that most customers arn't aware of.
If that option is not suitable you could always use one of those translation services for the deaf. I however couldn't give you details on that form of assistance.
A third option would be to ask me directly either here, ICQ, or my personal E-mail and I would be glad to help in anyway I can. Best of luck to you.

P.S. if you do change operating systems HP policy states that we couldn't support any software related issues until the system is back to it's original configuartion.

------------------
ICY

[AwARe]

To add my 2 cents worth not that anyone wants it hehe

PIII 600 BX chips, 128mb pc100, GeForce2 MX, SB Live!,......None of the OS's had any compatibility issues that I noticed......All installs went very well

Installed Win98 1st Edition, Win98SE, and WinME All from full versions on a Clean HDD all with "Close to Default Settings" ............Win98SE Crashed more then 1st Edition, and ME is noticably Slower and also crased alot, not to mention the surprising sudden reboots for no good reason........

I settled on Win98 1st Edition after trying all 3

Record Uptimes
1st Edition: 1wk 5days 9hrs 13mins 39secs (Running all kinds of programs and under heavy use)
SE: Less then a week
ME: "Maybe" a couple of days

I ran lots of tests and dont have any of the backup data to post, but since I own all 3, this is what I have found, and use......

Of course none of them compare to 95b http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Recently got 2k and probably try it soon......from what I hear thats going to end up being my new OS...............That is of course until I see what XP is gonna do (Im getting a Free Copy From MS, WooHoo! Bout time they gave me something back hah)

Extra Note: A friend of mine with a very similar system finally "after 3 attempts at installing" and tweaking it to hell and back, got ME to run stable........He swore once he "finally" got it running right, he liked it alot better then 98..........but as soon as he got a copy of 2k, he ditched WinME like it was a desease <-(That speaks for itself I think)


[This message has been edited by AwARe (edited 05-16-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

Icy: Thank you, I will keep it in mind and recommend it if need be. He says that it is working fine now. Did a "restore" thing not too many days ago.

CLTEK: Beg to differ. "New and improved" is often not either.

We've had experience with only three puters running ME, so very limited experience, but so far our opinion is that it stands for "Many Errors". And granted you can't really compare performance, but compared to our two puters running 98 and the work puter running ME...ME is unbelievably, noticeably, SLOW about opening programs, booting, card games, etc.

[kayofcircles]

Agree with Sea's "What is the topic again?"

Agree also that art cannot suck. But don't think that what we're talking about here fits in that catagory. I think we're talking "tools" here. If you invent a hammer that only works for left handed people with one eye, then it's still a tool and they will like it, but the majority of people will not be happy about purchasing such a hammer.

[kayofcircles]

Sorry...have no idea what just happened. Got messages of "can't go there", etc. and guess I posted all of them. Confused, and apologetic. This was already too long.

[tjaymadison]

Kay --

Heard MS is considering a change to "Your hard drive is not configured properly."

They're selling naming rights to the highest bidder for this one:

"If you buy and install a __________ hard drive, you will not have this problem again."

May also include links to vendors. Bids are being accepted now.

Would you let me know where I can get 'a holt a' that hammer? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Thanks, Lefty

------------------
"I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage, mathematician, computer pioneer, analytical engine designer (1791-1871)
-- (Question: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?')

[This message has been edited by tjaymadison (edited 05-16-2001).]

[CLTEK]

Kayofcircles...

Thanks for uh... ALL of your replies. LOL. Sorry. Had to poke fun. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Just for the record... The dialog regarding the word 'sucks' wasn't placed in the context of 'tools'. I was talking about financial problems. Which, incidentally... SUCK! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Aware...

Thank you Senor... Thanks for the personal insight.

Bassman...

Thanks. I'm considering giving the OS a trail run. My friend has two different versions but he has told me that he had to tweak several things to his liking in order to get it to perform more to his likeing. He said the tweaks weren't necessarily for stability, but rather comfortability and speed.

Thanks to all-y'all.

MLAR... Big Cor

------------------
Age and Treachery will forever triumph over Youth and Skill.

[kayofcircles]

Like that, TJay!

Saw this link, Cory, this morning. Haven't checked on it really, but if you're gonna try ME, you might. http://www.techweb.com/winmag/windows/features/merunbetter/default.htm

On the multiple post..going with the TJay explanation of "house burning down, but okay cuz saved my puter!" for not remembering that I could try editing the extras right out of existence.

[Adam Pintar]

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif Win me bad bad http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

It like its the same operating system but they have added extra steps to everything click on this to do this and stuff


I am probably way late in answering this post hehehe

Adam http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[Dan Mitchell]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kayofcircles:
Like that, TJay!

Saw this link, Cory, this morning. Haven't checked on it really, but if you're gonna try ME, you might. http://www.techweb.com/winmag/windows/features/merunbetter/default.htm


Anyone else here old enough to remember that Dylan song (BTW, happy 60th Bob, in case your reading this ;-) where he says of the writing of a 13th century Italian poet "every one of them words rang true/And glowed like burnin' coal/Pourin' off of every page/Like it was written in my soul"? That's pretty much the way I felt when I read Kay's suggested site above and the critiques of ME which it links to. The main article could have been penned about my very pc when the author says of his Atlon 1200 (mine's an 1100) "the new 1.2GHz PC didn't feel particularly fast, and it certainly wasn't smooth: I experienced annoying system interruptions when WinMe would launch some internal task or other, causing whatever foreground task I was working on to stutter and become momentarily unresponsive. It all added up to a subjective experience of the 1.2GHz machine delivering half-speed performance". Another reviewer at Techweb says of his 1.2g Athlon, even after extensive tweaking "The end result was a machine that felt like my old 550MHz Win98SE box. WinMe seemed to be sucking up all the new PC's extra horsepower for itself...The extra "features" Microsoft tacked on to Win98 to create a "Millennium Edition" do add some modest benefit, but at an extremely higg cost: Even when pared to a minimum, WinMe is a bloated OS with far too many tasks bubbling in the background, out of reach of the user. For power users (i.e. Winmag.com's readers) WinMe's drawbacks far offset its few advantages". Written in my freeking soul. I always feel like the damn thing is lurking in the background, just waiting to pull something, a favorite being the inopportune lockup in responce to an alt/tab. All to the tune of incessant harddrive churning (what is it DOING??????) I've already taken to calling it "Hal".

Anyway, thanks Kay for the link. It contains many good tips, but like the modem situation whose only solution I am resigned is replacement, I suspect this machine will not show it's potential 'til ME is replaced with "The Next Best Thing". I guess that's XP. Why would I feel so much more confident if it were made by anyone but MS (and I mean ANYONE. Dole Pineapple. Redwing Shoes. Timken Roller Bearing. Brotherhood of Norwegian Sardine Packers. ANYONE!!!!)???

Dan

[kayofcircles]

You do good posts, Dan! Love the Hal thing. And have you noticed that even those who appear to be happy with their OS (like me), tend to dislike MS? Is it a resentment kind of thing...like "We are helpless in their grasp"?

We did do the Symantec "tweaking" for 98 on a friend's computer a couple of weeks ago (posted that link for you in your other posted question). So far, knock on wood, his puter has been running along without one single problem, and he was having many problems before.

------------------
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese proverb

[Dan Mitchell]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kayofcircles:
You do good posts, Dan! Love the Hal thing. And have you noticed that even those who appear to be happy with their OS (like me), tend to dislike MS? Is it a resentment kind of thing...like "We are helpless in their grasp"?

Thanks Kay, always glad to be appreciated http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I thought Hal was an appropriate name on a number of levels, particulary given that it's now 2001 http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif I enjoy your posts as well, in fact I can say I've been on more listservs, web based discussion groups, newsgroups etc etc than I can remember on a pretty broad range of topics over the last 7 years or so, and this group in general is about the most consistently civil, intelligent, pleasant and informative I've yet encountered.

As to the near universal revulsion at MS, speaking only for myself I simply don't like the way they do business & I wouldn't like them if they sold donuts or anything else. Bill Gates is (IMHO) an arrogant and ruthless little schmuck who started his empire with the theft of another man's intellectual property (Gary Kildall's CPM operating system, which Gates copied to become "PC DOS" for his 1st big deal with IBM) and who feels he has the world by the Short Hairs, as the British would say. In the process, he's amassed a personal wealth that exceeds that of the bottom 50 or so million Americans combined. All these things typify much of the present hegemonic corporate world view which more and more people are beginning to realize simply is not consistent with democracy. As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis once said, "We can have a democratic society or we can have great concentrated wealth in the hands of the few. We cannot have both."

Again, IMHO http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Dan