anti virus utilities opinions

[nimnorf2]

Hey all,
I've got Command Anti-virus through work, for free. Operates seamlessly in the background as far as I can tell. Was just reading iisbobs post in "Suggestions" and he says "go with Norton." Why? What's the dif? And would you go through the expense if you were me?

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A man persuaded against his will, is of his old opinion still.

[hiredgoonz]

I'm a bad person, I don't run any anti-virus software at all...I use Zonealarm plus a hardware firewall and I don't run any executables or open any documents unless I know what they are...and guess what? Never have any problems...

I've used McAfee and Norton and decided that they were too much of a pain in the a$$...

As long as you're careful and keep your definitions up to date, I wouldn't worry too much about which antivirus software you use...

I asked an old (and very computer-wise) friend of mine what software he used and his response was: "The best thing I can get for free"



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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[nimnorf2]

Thanks Hired,
yeah, "free" usually works for me too!
peace

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A man persuaded against his will, is of his old opinion still.

[iisbob]

I'm a sucker for free myself; but have seen to many systems get burned by " freebies " and " i don't change the oil, only the filter " type response ( no offense hired http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ) i figure it's better to be safe than sorry. Norton's only around $30, i consider that cheap insurance from having to fdisk/format if somehow i got a bug. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Anti-vir is free, and next to innoculate are pretty decent progs, but becuase they are free they can't keep up with the ever changing world of virii/maliscious programs. And believe me, the field of " destructive programming " is growing at an ever increasing rate-we spend most of our time at work keeping up with firewall/anti-virus apps and a close eye on developing " evil " progs; simply becuase as a corperation they are a big juicy target! I've come across some viral programs ( and worms ) that'll make your hair crawl!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

the odds that you at home will be infected are pretty low, if you just follow common sense steps in downloading and email attachments; however i've noticed, as mentioned above, that virus/trojan programmers are getting better all the time, even managing to hide virii on .jpeg and mp3 extensions-some are even in script code so as soon as you even open an email ( doesn't necessarily need an attachment, just buggered on the header ) it can infect your system. Used to be this was not a worry, but with the services like hotmail, incredamail which use html coding in their messages, you can get whomped before you know it! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

In the years since the net became publicly accessable, i've had norton defeat a no# of virii attacks against my system from close friends/associates who didn't know any better and got infected and from there it began to spread. Most people have no clue about 99% of how there system operates ( read joe and sally at work http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ) and they just blithly stroll thru the " tulips " with out a care in the world! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

'course, can't complain to much, they do help keep me in a job! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-30-2001).]

[nimnorf2]

iisbob,
How do you know so much! Really, you are all over this forum. Thanks for the lengthy reply. Answered questions I've wanted to know for years just never followed up on them. Really, you can get a virus just by opening an email, now? No attachment, no executable? WaaaaaH!
Oh and what about Command Anti-virus? The first post on this thread.
Thanks bud!

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A man persuaded against his will, is of his old opinion still.

[iisbob]

i don't know a lot, but what i have learned is thru bitter experiance! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

i gave up drugs, parties and loose women to devote all my time to the computer (and my wife of course http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ) so i've got to have picked up a little something along the way!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

But from what i've seen there are many regulars who post on this site who know as much if not more than myself-shoot, i'm still going back to school at least once a year just to try and keep up! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif



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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[hiredgoonz]

When it comes to the car, I always change the oil and filter http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Truthfully, I question the usefulness of the anti-virus software...in my experience, legitimate programs are just as likely to hose your computer as a virus (especially M$ products)

And you have to shut it off when you install programs anyway, so one of the main times when you really would want the software to be active, it's turned off...

I got so tired of dealing with the updates and having to turn it on and off that I decided to see what happened without it...

Just by being careful you can eliminate most of the risks...if I get an email I don't recognize, I don't open it...

Now, don't get me wrong, at some point I may very well get a horrible computer virus that will cause me to have to do something drastic like reformat my hard drive and reinstall my OS (like I've never done that before) but what are the odds that an antivirus prog will stop it?

The worst viruses out there are the ones that are new and not recognized yet. That's why they do the most damage, no one is prepared for them



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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[sea69]

I have macafee for DOS (boot) and innoculate (which I can't tell is running at all).. but I do not keep mcafee "safe and sound", or real time going (except innoculate)..

that's me... (zonealarm of course)........

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[iisbob]

The worst viruses out there are the ones that are new and not recognized yet. That's why they do the most damage, no one is prepared for them

Actually, hired i have to disagree-it's the ones already floating around that do the worst damage, how's that you ask? becuase people don't pay attention to a " virus warning " unless it's about some new and deadly version. Just 2 days ago we had a young lady download the melissa virus-thankfully norton caught it, she said " but it was sent from a guy i know, he wouldn't infect me! " http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif


as for zonealarm, i used it for awhile- then i quit. in 2 years on cable i've tracked the pings i get, and the majority come from my own ISP! ( checking to make sure i aint running a server! ) as for non-localized ones; well, as sea stated in another post, if you ping back they usually stop-nothing scares a port sniffer more than having his own ports sniffed! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Besides, my isp has very good firwall software on their own servers, which is required by FCC law for them to offer service to the public. When i first got broadband i was parinoid, but since then i've realized some things;

1) virii are easily detectable if you pay attention to what you download and what email you recieve,

2) my humble system ain't in anybodies mind worth hacking in to ( unless they want the latest games! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )

3) if it ever does happen, i've gcome to know all the little quirks in my system-can you say RE-FORMAT http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

4) When i ain't online, she's shut off-i've sit and watched my modem getting pinged like mad, doesn't do them any good, can't probe a port that doesn't exist!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Not to say it can't or wont happen, but i always thought it was kinda asinine to run a firewall , try to multi-play online and complain when the firewall caused problems! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Now of course some " richard " head will read this and try to access my system , forcing me to break out the hardware firewall hub. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[mjc]

Looking at various anti-virus programs I have found that there is a good free one, F-prot (http://www.frisk.is/f-prot/products/). It is for DOS and free for personal use, and is regularly updated.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

Gun Control...hitting what you aim at!

[This message has been edited by mjc (edited 07-30-2001).]

[sea69]

" richard heads "...LOL

and will have to disagree on the firewall matter.

I would not go online at all without my firewall up and set to maximum.

I allow no program to "Pass Lock" either.

not sure how you had your ZA configured iisbob, but my own ISP cannot "ping" me.

unless by "ping", you meant 'hits' announcing you had been scanned. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

and by iisbob: "2) my humble system ain't in anybodies mind worth hacking in to ( unless they want the latest games! )"

you should know as well as I do that there are many malicious, bored, pranksters out there.. Steve Gibsons site was shut down by a 13 year old that used other peoples computers in a mass dedicated denial of service.

(one of which could at any time easily have been yours [unprotected])

and : by iisbob: "Not to say it can't or wont happen, but i always thought it was kinda asinine to run a firewall , try to multi-play online and complain when the firewall caused problems! "

agree with that part!

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[kaos]

not sure how you had your ZA configured iisbob, but my own ISP cannot "ping" me.

unless by "ping", you meant 'hits' announcing you had been scanned.



If I read his context right, I think that's what he means. Hits are still pings. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif I have ZA also and my ISP pings me religiously to see if I'm running a server. I have ZA also, it's the best software firewall out there, but, there are firewall killer progs, and no firewall is 100% safe. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[iisbob]

yeh sea a friend of mine who works with @home ( now comcast ) told me they regularly check their customers traffick out to make sure they aren't running a server.

here's a really good site to visit about broadband, Navas (http://cable-dsl.home.att.net/) interestingly on this site they absolutely slam ol' steve's site.

Which you might be intereted to note has given me the same security ratings without ZA as with it?! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

Which makes me think either 1 of 2 things; either my system is adequately protected by ZA, or that my ISP is doing their job right-so ZA is a waste of my system resources, or that steve's site is a big hoax as they claim on the Navas site. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif


Heh, if you never hear from me again it's becuase someone has jacked my system. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[kaos]

not sure how you had your ZA configured iisbob, but my own ISP cannot "ping" me.

unless by "ping", you meant 'hits' announcing you had been scanned.



If I read his context right, I think that's what he means. Hits are still pings. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif I have ZA also and my ISP pings me religiously to see if I'm running a server. I have ZA also, it's the best software firewall out there, but, there are firewall killer progs, and no firewall is 100% safe. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

[sea69]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh iisbob, I see by that very nice link you provided that you are not 'unaware'... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

(not that I thought you were for a second).....

I'm not sure what test (precisely) you are refering to regarding obtaining the same resuilts with or without ZA ??

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-30-2001).]

[iisbob]

i was talking about steve's vaunted Port scanner and Shields up! service that he offer's on his site.

try it with ZA enabled, then go back with it disabled and compare the results-you might be as surprised as i was. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif
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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-30-2001).]

[sea69]

ok, got ya.

want to thank you for that link, I am now going to test ZA on 3 independant sites.

will advise my results.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[sea69]

here we are: here are my results from one site at the link provided by [/b]iisbob[/b]:

site= http://hackerwhacker.com:4000/doscans.dyn

Security Scan of 141.157.96.xx Unknown started at Mon Jul 30 18:43:40 2001

Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; MSNIA; Windows 98)

Starting Test: #1
Description: Scan for open ports (showing ports)
Target Scanned: 141.157.96.xx
Starting Time: Mon Jul 30 18:43:40 2001

Starting nmap V. 2.3BETA6 by Fyodor (fyodor@dhp.com, www.insecure.org/nmap/) (http://www.insecure.org/nmap/))
Initiating SYN half-open stealth scan against adsl-141-157-96-xx.baltmd.adsl.bellatlantic.net (141.157.96.xx)
1, 2, Sent 2 Probes
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, Sent 31 Probes
12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, Sent 61 Probes
22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, Sent 91 Probes
32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, Sent 121 Probes
42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, Sent 151 Probes
52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, Sent 181 Probes
62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, Sent 211 Probes
72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, Sent 241 Probes
82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, Sent 271 Probes
92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, Sent 301 Probes
102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, Sent 331 Probes
112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 111, 112, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 111, 112, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, Sent 452 Probes
153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, Sent 572 Probes
193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, Sent 692 Probes
233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 272, Sent 812 Probes
273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, Sent 932 Probes
313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339, 340, 341, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339, 340, 341, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339, 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 352, Sent 1052 Probes
353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, 361, 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, 361, 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, 361, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391, 392, Sent 1172 Probes
393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, Sent 1292 Probes
433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 472, Sent 1412 Probes
473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, Sent 1532 Probes
513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 552, Sent 1652 Probes
553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 552, 553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 552, 553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592, Sent 1772 Probes
593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 592, 593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 592, 593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, Sent 1892 Probes
633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, Sent 2012 Probes
673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, Sent 2132 Probes
713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, Sent 2252 Probes
753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, Sent 2372 Probes
793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, Sent 2492 Probes
833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, Sent 2612 Probes
873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, Sent 2732 Probes
913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, Sent 2852 Probes
953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, Sent 2972 Probes
993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, Sent 3092 Probes
1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1067, 1068, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1067, 1068, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1067, 1068, 1080, 1083, 1084, 1090, 1095, 1103, 1109, 1110, 1112, 1114, 1080, 1083, 1084, 1090, 1095, 1103, 1109, 1110, 1112, 1114, 1080, 1083, 1084, 1090, 1095, 1103, 1109, 1110, 1112, 1114, 1117, 1127, 1155, 1170, 1178, 1207, 1212, 1222, 1234, 1241, 1117, 1127, 1155, 1170, 1178, 1207, 1212, 1222, 1234, 1241, 1117, 1127, 1155, 1170, 1178, 1207, 1212, 1222, 1234, 1241, 1243, Sent 3212 Probes
1245, 1248, 1269, 1346, 1347, 1348, 1349, 1350, 1351, 1243, 1245, 1248, 1269, 1346, 1347, 1348, 1349, 1350, 1351, 1243, 1245, 1248, 1269, 1346, 1347, 1348, 1349, 1350, 1351, 1352, 1353, 1354, 1355, 1356, 1357, 1358, 1359, 1360, 1361, 1352, 1353, 1354, 1355, 1356, 1357, 1358, 1359, 1360, 1361, 1352, 1353, 1354, 1355, 1356, 1357, 1358, 1359, 1360, 1361, 1362, 1363, 1364, 1365, 1366, 1367, 1368, 1369, 1370, 1371, 1362, 1363, 1364, 1365, 1366, 1367, 1368, 1369, 1370, 1371, 1362, 1363, 1364, 1365, 1366, 1367, 1368, 1369, 1370, 1371, 1372, 1373, 1374, 1375, 1376, 1377, 1378, 1379, 1380, 1381, 1372, 1373, 1374, 1375, 1376, 1377, 1378, 1379, 1380, 1381, 1372, 1373, 1374, 1375, 1376, 1377, 1378, 1379, 1380, 1381, 1383, Sent 3332 Probes
1384, 1385, 1386, 1387, 1388, 1389, 1390, 1391, 1392, 1383, 1384, 1385, 1386, 1387, 1388, 1389, 1390, 1391, 1392, 1383, 1384, 1385, 1386, 1387, 1388, 1389, 1390, 1391, 1392, 1393, 1394, 1395, 1396, 1397, 1398, 1399, 1400, 1401, 1402, 1393, 1394, 1395, 1396, 1397, 1398, 1399, 1400, 1401, 1402, 1393, 1394, 1395, 1396, 1397, 1398, 1399, 1400, 1401, 1402, 1403, 1404, 1405, 1406, 1407, 1408, 1409, 1410, 1411, 1412, 1403, 1404, 1405, 1406, 1407, 1408, 1409, 1410, 1411, 1412, 1403, 1404, 1405, 1406, 1407, 1408, 1409, 1410, 1411, 1412, 1413, 1414, 1415, 1416, 1417, 1418, 1419, 1420, 1421, 1422, 1413, 1414, 1415, 1416, 1417, 1418, 1419, 1420, 1421, 1422, 1413, 1414, 1415, 1416, 1417, 1418, 1419, 1420, 1421, 1422, 1423, Sent 3452 Probes
1424, 1425, 1426, 1427, 1428, 1429, 1430, 1431, 1432, 1423, 1424, 1425, 1426, 1427, 1428, 1429, 1430, 1431, 1432, 1423, 1424, 1425, 1426, 1427, 1428, 1429, 1430, 1431, 1432, 1433, 1434, 1435, 1436, 1437, 1438, 1439, 1440, 1441, 1442, 1433, 1434, 1435, 1436, 1437, 1438, 1439, 1440, 1441, 1442, 1433, 1434, 1435, 1436, 1437, 1438, 1439, 1440, 1441, 1442, 1443, 1444, 1445, 1446, 1447, 1448, 1449, 1450, 1451, 1452, 1443, 1444, 1445, 1446, 1447, 1448, 1449, 1450, 1451, 1452, 1443, 1444, 1445, 1446, 1447, 1448, 1449, 1450, 1451, 1452, 1453, 1454, 1455, 1456, 1457, 1458, 1459, 1460, 1461, 1462, 1453, 1454, 1455, 1456, 1457, 1458, 1459, 1460, 1461, 1462, 1453, 1454, 1455, 1456, 1457, 1458, 1459, 1460, 1461, 1462, 1463, Sent 3572 Probes
1464, 1465, 1466, 1467, 1468, 1469, 1470, 1471, 1472, 1463, 1464, 1465, 1466, 1467, 1468, 1469, 1470, 1471, 1472, 1463, 1464, 1465, 1466, 1467, 1468, 1469, 1470, 1471, 1472, 1473, 1474, 1475, 1476, 1477, 1478, 1479, 1480, 1481, 1482, 1473, 1474, 1475, 1476, 1477, 1478, 1479, 1480, 1481, 1482, 1473, 1474, 1475, 1476, 1477, 1478, 1479, 1480, 1481, 1482, 1483, 1484, 1485, 1486, 1487, 1488, 1489, 1490, 1491, 1492, 1483, 1484, 1485, 1486, 1487, 1488, 1489, 1490, 1491, 1492, 1483, 1484, 1485, 1486, 1487, 1488, 1489, 1490, 1491, 1492, 1493, 1494, 1495, 1496, 1497, 1498, 1499, 1500, 1501, 1502, 1493, 1494, 1495, 1496, 1497, 1498, 1499, 1500, 1501, 1502, 1493, 1494, 1495, 1496, 1497, 1498, 1499, 1500, 1501, 1502, 1503, Sent 3692 Probes
1504, 1505, 1506, 1507, 1508, 1509, 1510, 1511, 1512, 1503, 1504, 1505, 1506, 1507, 1508, 1509, 1510, 1511, 1512, 1503, 1504, 1505, 1506, 1507, 1508, 1509, 1510, 1511, 1512, 1513, 1514, 1515, 1516, 1517, 1518, 1519, 1520, 1521, 1522, 1513, 1514, 1515, 1516, 1517, 1518, 1519, 1520, 1521, 1522, 1513, 1514, 1515, 1516, 1517, 1518, 1519, 1520, 1521, 1522, 1523, 1524, 1525, 1526, 1527, 1528, 1529, 1530, 1531, 1532, 1523, 1524, 1525, 1526, 1527, 1528, 1529, 1530, 1531, 1532, 1523, 1524, 1525, 1526, 1527, 1528, 1529, 1530, 1531, 1532, 1533, 1534, 1535, 1536, 1537, 1538, 1539, 1540, 1541, 1542, 1533, 1534, 1535, 1536, 1537, 1538, 1539, 1540, 1541, 1542, 1533, 1534, 1535, 1536, 1537, 1538, 1539, 1540, 1541, 1542, 1543, Sent 3812 Probes
1544, 1545, 1546, 1547, 1548, 1549, 1550, 1551, 1552, 1543, 1544, 1545, 1546, 1547, 1548, 1549, 1550, 1551, 1552, 1543, 1544, 1545, 1546, 1547, 1548, 1549, 1550, 1551, 1552, 1584, 1585, 1600, 1650, 1651, 1652, 1661, 1662, 1663, 1664, 1584, 1585, 1600, 1650, 1651, 1652, 1661, 1662, 1663, 1664, 1584, 1585, 1600, 1650, 1651, 1652, 1661, 1662, 1663, 1664, 1665, 1666, 1667, 1668, 1669, 1670, 1671, 1672, 1720, 1723, 1665, 1666, 1667, 1668, 1669, 1670, 1671, 1672, 1720, 1723, 1665, 1666, 1667, 1668, 1669, 1670, 1671, 1672, 1720, 1723, 1731, 1732, 1807, 1900, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1731, 1732, 1807, 1900, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1731, 1732, 1807, 1900, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, Sent 3932 Probes
1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2030, 2032, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2030, 2032, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2030, 2032, 2033, Sent 4052 Probes
2034, 2035, 2038, 2040, 2041, 2042, 2043, 2044, 2045, 2033, 2034, 2035, 2038, 2040, 2041, 2042, 2043, 2044, 2045, 2033, 2034, 2035, 2038, 2040, 2041, 2042, 2043, 2044, 2045, 2046, 2047, 2048, 2049, 2050, 2051, 2064, 2065, 2067, 2069, 2046, 2047, 2048, 2049, 2050, 2051, 2064, 2065, 2067, 2069, 2046, 2047, 2048, 2049, 2050, 2051, 2064, 2065, 2067, 2069, 2085, 2090, 2095, 2105, 2106, 2108, 2111, 2112, 2115, 2140, 2085, 2090, 2095, 2105, 2106, 2108, 2111, 2112, 2115, 2140, 2085, 2090, 2095, 2105, 2106, 2108, 2111, 2112, 2115, 2140, 2201, 2222, 2232, 2241, 2283, 2301, 2307, 2401, 2430, 2431, 2201, 2222, 2232, 2241, 2283, 2301, 2307, 2401, 2430, 2431, 2201, 2222, 2232, 2241, 2283, 2301, 2307, 2401, 2430, 2431, 2432, Sent 4172 Probes
2433, 2500, 2501, 2564, 2565, 2583, 2600, 2601, 2602, 2432, 2433, 2500, 2501, 2564, 2565, 2583, 2600, 2601, 2602, 2432, 2433, 2500, 2501, 2564, 2565, 2583, 2600, 2601, 2602, 2603, 2604, 2605, 2627, 2644, 2766, 2784, 2801, 2999, 3000, 2603, 2604, 2605, 2627, 2644, 2766, 2784, 2801, 2999, 3000, 2603, 2604, 2605, 2627, 2644, 2766, 2784, 2801, 2999, 3000, 3001, 3005, 3006, 3010, 3024, 3049, 3086, 3100, 3128, 3129, 3001, 3005, 3006, 3010, 3024, 3049, 3086, 3100, 3128, 3129, 3001, 3005, 3006, 3010, 3024, 3049, 3086, 3100, 3128, 3129, 3141, 3264, 3306, 3333, 3389, 3421, 3455, 3456, 3457, 3462, 3141, 3264, 3306, 3333, 3389, 3421, 3455, 3456, 3457, 3462, 3141, 3264, 3306, 3333, 3389, 3421, 3455, 3456, 3457, 3462, 3791, Sent 4292 Probes
3900, 3984, 3985, 3986, 3999, 4000, 4001, 4008, 4045, 3791, 3900, 3984, 3985, 3986, 3999, 4000, 4001, 4008, 4045, 3791, 3900, 3984, 3985, 3986, 3999, 4000, 4001, 4008, 4045, 4092, 4099, 4132, 4133, 4144, 4321, 4333, 4343, 4444, 4500, 4092, 4099, 4132, 4133, 4144, 4321, 4333, 4343, 4444, 4500, 4092, 4099, 4132, 4133, 4144, 4321, 4333, 4343, 4444, 4500, 4557, 4559, 4567, 4590, 4672, 4950, 4999, 5000, 5001, 5002, 4557, 4559, 4567, 4590, 4672, 4950, 4999, 5000, 5001, 5002, 4557, 4559, 4567, 4590, 4672, 4950, 4999, 5000, 5001, 5002, 5010, 5011, 5031, 5032, 5050, 5145, 5190, 5191, 5192, 5193, 5010, 5011, 5031, 5032, 5050, 5145, 5190, 5191, 5192, 5193, 5010, 5011, 5031, 5032, 5050, 5145, 5190, 5191, 5192, 5193, 5200, Sent 4412 Probes
5232, 5236, 5300, 5301, 5302, 5303, 5304, 5305, 5308, 5200, 5232, 5236, 5300, 5301, 5302, 5303, 5304, 5305, 5308, 5200, 5232, 5236, 5300, 5301, 5302, 5303, 5304, 5305, 5308, 5310, 5321, 5400, 5401, 5402, 5432, 5500, 5510, 5520, 5521, 5310, 5321, 5400, 5401, 5402, 5432, 5500, 5510, 5520, 5521, 5310, 5321, 5400, 5401, 5402, 5432, 5500, 5510, 5520, 5521, 5530, 5540, 5550, 5555, 5556, 5557, 5569, 5631, 5632, 5670, 5530, 5540, 5550, 5555, 5556, 5557, 5569, 5631, 5632, 5670, 5530, 5540, 5550, 5555, 5556, 5557, 5569, 5631, 5632, 5670, 5680, 5713, 5714, 5715, 5716, 5717, 5741, 5742, 5977, 5978, 5680, 5713, 5714, 5715, 5716, 5717, 5741, 5742, 5977, 5978, 5680, 5713, 5714, 5715, 5716, 5717, 5741, 5742, 5977, 5978, 5979, Sent 4532 Probes
5997, 5998, 5999, 6000, 6001, 6002, 6003, 6004, 6005, 5979, 5997, 5998, 5999, 6000, 6001, 6002, 6003, 6004, 6005, 5979, 5997, 5998, 5999, 6000, 6001, 6002, 6003, 6004, 6005, 6006, 6007, 6008, 6009, 6010, 6110, 6111, 6112, 6141, 6142, 6006, 6007, 6008, 6009, 6010, 6110, 6111, 6112, 6141, 6142, 6006, 6007, 6008, 6009, 6010, 6110, 6111, 6112, 6141, 6142, 6143, 6144, 6145, 6146, 6147, 6148, 6346, 6400, 6558, 6666, 6143, 6144, 6145, 6146, 6147, 6148, 6346, 6400, 6558, 6666, 6143, 6144, 6145, 6146, 6147, 6148, 6346, 6400, 6558, 6666, 6667, 6668, 6669, 6670, 6671, 6699, 6700, 6701, 6702, 6711, 6667, 6668, 6669, 6670, 6671, 6699, 6700, 6701, 6702, 6711, 6667, 6668, 6669, 6670, 6671, 6699, 6700, 6701, 6702, 6711, 6712, Sent 4652 Probes
6713, 6776, 6880, 6883, 6901, 6912, 6939, 6969, 6970, 6712, 6713, 6776, 6880, 6883, 6901, 6912, 6939, 6969, 6970, 6712, 6713, 6776, 6880, 6883, 6901, 6912, 6939, 6969, 6970, 6999, 7000, 7001, 7002, 7003, 7004, 7005, 7006, 7007, 7008, 6999, 7000, 7001, 7002, 7003, 7004, 7005, 7006, 7007, 7008, 6999, 7000, 7001, 7002, 7003, 7004, 7005, 7006, 7007, 7008, 7009, 7010, 7070, 7100, 7200, 7201, 7300, 7301, 7306, 7307, 7009, 7010, 7070, 7100, 7200, 7201, 7300, 7301, 7306, 7307, 7009, 7010, 7070, 7100, 7200, 7201, 7300, 7301, 7306, 7307, 7308, 7323, 7326, 7597, 7640, 7642, 7648, 7649, 7777, 7789, 7308, 7323, 7326, 7597, 7640, 7642, 7648, 7649, 7777, 7789, 7308, 7323, 7326, 7597, 7640, 7642, 7648, 7649, 7777, 7789, 7999, Sent 4772 Probes
8000, 8001, 8008, 8010, 8080, 8787, 8875, 8879, 8888, 7999, 8000, 8001, 8008, 8010, 8080, 8787, 8875, 8879, 8888, 7999, 8000, 8001, 8008, 8010, 8080, 8787, 8875, 8879, 8888, 8999, 9000, 9100, 9400, 9535, 9876, 9878, 9989, 9999, 10005, 8999, 9000, 9100, 9400, 9535, 9876, 9878, 9989, 9999, 10005, 8999, 9000, 9100, 9400, 9535, 9876, 9878, 9989, 9999, 10005, 10082, 10083, 10520, 10607, 10666, 11000, 11223, 12053, 12076, 12083, 10082, 10083, 10520, 10607, 10666, 11000, 11223, 12053, 12076, 12083, 10082, 10083, 10520, 10607, 10666, 11000, 11223, 12053, 12076, 12083, 12223, 12345, 12346, 12361, 12362, 12631, 12701, 13000, 13223, 13700, 12223, 12345, 12346, 12361, 12362, 12631, 12701, 13000, 13223, 13700, 12223, 12345, 12346, 12361, 12362, 12631, 12701, 13000, 13223, 13700, 16000, Sent 4892 Probes
16010, 16484, 16660, 16969, 17007, 18000, 18001, 18002, 18003, 16000, 16010, 16484, 16660, 16969, 17007, 18000, 18001, 18002, 18003, 16000, 16010, 16484, 16660, 16969, 17007, 18000, 18001, 18002, 18003, 20000, 20001, 20005, 20034, 20203, 20331, 20432, 21544, 21554, 21927, 20000, 20001, 20005, 20034, 20203, 20331, 20432, 21544, 21554, 21927, 20000, 20001, 20005, 20034, 20203, 20331, 20432, 21544, 21554, 21927, 22222, 22273, 22289, 22305, 22321, 23456, 23476, 23477, 26208, 26214, 22222, 22273, 22289, 22305, 22321, 23456, 23476, 23477, 26208, 26214, 22222, 22273, 22289, 22305, 22321, 23456, 23476, 23477, 26208, 26214, 26274, 27374, 27665, 28800, 29891, 30029, 30100, 30101, 30102, 30133, 26274, 27374, 27665, 28800, 29891, 30029, 30100, 30101, 30102, 30133, 26274, 27374, 27665, 28800, 29891, 30029, 30100, 30101, 30102, 30133, 30303, Sent 5012 Probes
30999, 31334, 31336, 31337, 31338, 31666, 31785, 33333, 33911, 30303, 30999, 31334, 31336, 31337, 31338, 31666, 31785, 33333, 33911, 30303, 30999, 31334, 31336, 31337, 31338, 31666, 31785, 33333, 33911, 34324, 34555, 40412, 40421, 40422, 40423, 40425, 40426, 41000, 43210, 34324, 34555, 40412, 40421, 40422, 40423, 40425, 40426, 41000, 43210, 34324, 34555, 40412, 40421, 40422, 40423, 40425, 40426, 41000, 43210, 47252, 47262, 47557, 49301, 50000, 50505, 50766, 51210, 53001, 54320, 47252, 47262, 47557, 49301, 50000, 50505, 50766, 51210, 53001, 54320, 47252, 47262, 47557, 49301, 50000, 50505, 50766, 51210, 53001, 54320, 60000, 61466, 65000, 0, 60000, 61466, 65000, 0, 60000, 61466, 65000, 0, The SYN scan took 607 seconds to scan 1705 ports.
Of the ports searched, none were found open on adsl-141-157-96-xx.baltmd.adsl.bellatlantic.net (141.157.96.xx)
Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 607 seconds
Test Finished at Mon Jul 30 18:53:47 2001, Duration 10 minutes 7 seconds
************************************************** ********************************

Starting Test: #2
Description: Netbios Name Table
Target Scanned: 141.157.96.xx
Starting Time: Mon Jul 30 18:53:47 2001
This test will check to see if you have given Windows File Sharing access of your hard drive to the entire world. If so, we'll show you your "netbios name table", your share list and if possible a small sample of files off your own hard drive.
Needless to say, if your files show up here assume you have had them completely exposed since you last changed settings on your Windows Network settings.
No Netbios Information Available. SAFE.
Test Finished at Mon Jul 30 18:54:11 2001, Duration 0 minutes 24 seconds

************************************************** *******

this could take a long, long time!!

I would tend to think however that the rest of this test would yield the same results!

and now, do I really need to run the same test without zonealarm??

(keep in mind, this was a recommended testing site that did not like Steve Gibsons reasearch and called him everything but a scientist.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

I think it only fair to post the results with zonealarm OFF

stand by, this shouldn't take very long.

hehe


------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)




[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-30-2001).]

[sea69]

the other site would only allow me to do one test, but.....
with zonealarm active:

Shields UP! is checking YOUR computer's Internet connection security . . . currently located at IP:
141.157.96.xx
Please Stand By. . .

Attempting connection to your computer. . . Shields UP! is now attempting to contact the Hidden Internet Server within your PC. It is likely that no one has told you that your own personal computer may now be functioning as an Internet Server with neither your knowledge nor your permission. And that it may be serving up all or many of your personal files for reading, writing, modification and even deletion by anyone, anywhere, on the Internet! Please Note: On highly secure systems this may take up to one minute. . .

Your Internet port 139 does not appear to exist! One or more ports on this system are operating in FULL STEALTH MODE! Standard Internet behavior requires port connection attempts to be answered with a success or refusal response. Therefore, only an attempt to connect to a nonexistent computer results in no response of either kind. But YOUR computer has DELIBERATELY CHOSEN NOT TO RESPOND (that's very cool!) which represents advanced computer and port stealthing capabilities. A machine configured in this fashion is well hardened to Internet NetBIOS attack and intrusion.

Unable to connect with NetBIOS to your computer. All attempts to get any information from your computer have FAILED. (This is very uncommon for a Windows networking-based PC.) Relative to vulnerabilities from Windows networking, this computer appears to be VERY SECURE since it is NOT exposing ANY of its internal NetBIOS networking protocol over the Internet.

Port Probes:
Your computer at IP:
141.157.96.xx
Is now being probed. Please stand by. . .
Port Service Status Security Implications

21 FTP Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

23 Telnet Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

25 SMTP Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

79 Finger Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

80 HTTP Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

110 POP3 </faq-shieldsup.htm> Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

113 IDENT </faq-shieldsup.htm> Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

139 NetBIOS </faq-shieldsup.htm> Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

143 IMAP Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP address!

443 HTTPS Stealth! There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that a port (or even any computer) exists at this IP ad

with zonealarm OFF, I get a vastly different reading: [quote]
Shields UP! is checking YOUR computer's Internet connection security . . . currently located at IP:
141.157.96.xx
Please Stand By. . .

Attempting connection to your computer. . . Shields UP! is now attempting to contact the Hidden Internet Server within your PC. It is likely that no one has told you that your own personal computer may now be functioning as an Internet Server with neither your knowledge nor your permission. And that it may be serving up all or many of your personal files for reading, writing, modification and even deletion by anyone, anywhere, on the Internet! Please Note: On highly secure systems this may take up to one minute. . .

Preliminary Internet connection established! Your computer has accepted an anonymous connection from another machine it knows nothing about! (That's not good.) This ShieldsUP! web server has been permitted to connect to your computer's highly insecure NetBIOS File and Printer Sharing port (139). Subsequent tests conducted on this page, and elsewhere on this website, will probe more deeply to determine the extent of this system's vulnerability. But regardless of what more is determined, the presence and availability of some form of Internet Server HAS BEEN CONFIRMED within this machine . . . and it is accepting anonymous connections! The rest of this website explains the implications and dangers of your present configuration and provides complete and thorough instruction for increasing the security of this system. [b]At the moment, any passing high speed Internet scanner will quickly spot this computer as a target for attack. (When this page has completely finished displaying, you might wish to sneak a quick peek at these two pages to see what lies ahead at this website: Scanner1 </SU-Nbscan1.htm> & Scanner2 </SU-Nbscan2.htm> ) The phrase you must remember is: "My port 139 is wide OPEN!"


Ports Scanned (without ZA)- [quote]

Your computer at IP:
141.157.96.xx
Is now being probed. Please stand by. . .
Port Service Status Security Implications

21 FTP Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

23 Telnet Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

25 SMTP Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

79 Finger Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

80 HTTP Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

110 POP3 /faq-shieldsup.htm Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

113 IDENT /faq-shieldsup.htm Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

139 NetBIOS /faq-shieldsup.htm OPEN! As you probably know by now, the NetBIOS File Sharing port is the single largest security hole for networked Windows machines. The payoff from finding open Windows shares is so big that many scanners have been written just to find open ports like this one. Closing it should be a priority for you!

143 IMAP Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

443 HTTPS Closed Your computer has responded that this port exists but is currently closed to connections.

BIG BIG difference..........

please tell me if you see anyway that this firewall does not work.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif


------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-31-2001).]

[iisbob]

if it's closed, it aint accessable! period! as for the net/bios, you can shut that off yourself, matter of fact-unless you're on a network sharing a printer, you don't need it enabled at all.

The only difference is that with ZA active, your ports are supposedly stealthed-but your ip address isn't! and if they know ther's an active ip, then they know there's a system at the other end! And if they're not getting any replies back, that just makes them try harder, with the ports closed, they know your there; but so what?! They can't get in , and they lose interest and go on to someone who else who is broadcasting to the world.

personally, i like ZA-and i think ol steve's site is a good thing, just that in two years on my home system i've yet to encounter anything more interested in me than my isp!:P However at work,well.. that's different-we log sevral hits every month on them, so a permant hardware/and software firewall is kept running.

By all means i recomend anybody on broadband or even dial-up if you like have a firewall, but the very fact that ZA has gotten so popular has made it a target! People are always crowing about how ZA protected them from getting hacked, when they don't realize that the very reason they were most likely targetd was because they had ZA and someone was sniffing just for that!

As for Navas's comment on steve, i don't know why they don't like him-eh, maybe it's just jealousy. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-31-2001).]

[sea69]

iisbob,

the point I was trying to make, was that to the average viewer of these forums (and there are many that just look and don't post!), you are a guy that knows whats up with matters of the pc and your answers/opinions are not only valid, but (by many) believed to be correct.

I myself have benefited from some of the answers you have provided here to others- (I too, read allot of things that I don't comment on)

therefore, I thought it best to point out that because a knowlegeable guy as yourself says 'he has NO firewall' and that 'the results are the same with or without ZA running'- that #1 this is not everyones opinion here, and also as the results indicate incorrect. (on the last part).

while I can agree with most of what your post says, I on the other hand did not want everyone to think that ZA was a redundant facility!


http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[iisbob]

Good point sea!

To all you out there who may be reading this, Get a firewall! Get a good antivirus program! And most definately don't take my posts as gospel! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

geese, if nothing ellse, my spelling should scare you off!
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[sea69]

lmao!

ok 'iis' http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

spelling... I'm the guy that has to request people that I'm trying to help on a certain issue to please give me at least 5 minutes after I answer them to EDIT!!!

oh, and I'm well aware that there are many people out there attempting to crack ZA, I would be surprised if there already isn't a crack.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[kayofcircles]

Okay, you guys are seriously spooking me! We had an antivirus program on my husband's puter..had some initial problems with it, and then yours truly forgot to shut it off while downloading an update. Sigh, we didn't reinstall it after "repair". My uncle recently purchased Internet Securities, and he's practically afraid to go online anymore at all..keeps telling him that people are trying to access his puter. I have always thought I was safe enough as long as I don't "open" any attachments. And am very careful about what I download from where. Am I mistaken? Satellite is all that is available out here (other than dialup), and it's too expensive ($70 a month), but I also thought that one would have to be a lot more diligent if one was always connected..so don't want the satellite anyway.

[iisbob]

Sorry Kay, it is a serious subject; and yes i would most definetly run an anti-virus app, ( see above what i had to say about my experiances with them ), and if you'reon broadband it's not a bad idea to have a firewall. My ISP masks my ip address ( sorry charles, you don't have my actual one logged, only the submask from my isp http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ) and they provide firewall service for me, simply put, i'm accessing the internet thru their computer(s), so their system acts as my firewall.

As long as you take common sense measures ( which you've stated you do )then it's no more riskier to surf the net on broadband than it is with dialup. Except for stinking pop-ups! when you can download info at around an average of 300kps; they hit you before you know it! then you learn just how truely annoying they can be! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif That's why i run a pop-up killer, but sometimes it can cause problems when it get's overloaded.




------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[sea69]

well.........

I could show you logs of people that have scanned to see if certain ports were open , with the express intent to gain acess to my machine.. many more times than I care to think about, and I do not mean my own ISP, (which can NOT ping me at all.)- I was on the phone with them the other day, and they were tring to evaluate my connection, I forgot that ZA was on and active( as it always is) and until I lowered my 'guard', they could not even tell if I was online at all.

most of these attempts seem to originate from korea, or apic, or now china.

some of these would be serious attempts, if I was showing as "there" but port closed,- most of these creeps go away and immediately look for the uninformed or those that just don't care, that have no firewall at all. It is very much easier to take the path of least resistence.

with a fast connection (always on) they can use/mask their own IP for fxp or other illegal pubs, FTP'ed to large fast servers through a backdoor to do even greater /worse things.

for a dial up it is the same.. many dail up connections used at unknown predetermined intervals - coordinated together in an attack to/on someone or their server, or even a particular machine.


ask GH, he could tell us things to REALLY make out hair stand up! (our 'dander'..lol, for those w/out hair)

hehe

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)




[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-31-2001).]

[Paleo Pete]

Well, my opinion? Get a good firewall and antivirus and use them. Keep the DAT files updated.

A couple of recent incidents come to mind. Someone posted a question here recently about problems with the Sircam virus. Could have been prevented, DAT files were already available. We've also had topics concerning CIH, a fairly old one, Melissa, and others. Most could have been prevented by simply keeping the DAT files current.

Someone also recently told me about his boss, who got an instant message from someone he didn't know. This individual recited some of his personal info, credit card numbers, etc, and told him he was tired of looking at the same old stuff in his computer, and to give him some new info. I happen to know this is not a hoax or made-up story, I know the person VERY well. He's not prone to passing on "chain letter" type nonsense, and this was his boss, who he deals with every day. And who was VERY worried...A decent firewall would have prevented this.

I've also known people who related similar stories to me, as it had happened to them, asking me how to deal with it. One lady said she had just 5 minutes before suddenly heard her printer start. No printing going on...someone printed out a notice as he was leaving her computer, telling her that he had been there, it included her full name, address, phone number, credit card number, bank account number and internet password. A couple of weeks later her phone bill came in...with over $300 in long distance calls to places she had never heard of, made from different locations out of state where she had never been. Then she decided to take my advice, and have the phone number changed...almost a month after I told her to change it IMMEDIALTELY, same for bank account number and credit cards. She did the bank and credit cards but not the phone number. She now uses ZA religously.

Get a firewall and use it. Those are just a couple I know are true.

------------------
YOU! Out of the gene pool!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[sea69]

that's where I'm comimg from!!

hehe Pete

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[iisbob]

Well nim learn anything useful from this?! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[iisbob]

internal error. dble post. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[kayofcircles]

Another couple of questions. Talked to my son last night and he said that his understanding was that, without a firewall the perps can "probe" your ports, BUT unless you're on a print share or file share network, they really can't get in. Is that true? Still going to get ZA cuz no one should be probing my ports except my husband. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

We did have a lot of problems with Norton's antivirus, and quit using it. Recently, we bought Norton's System Works and husband tried using Antivirus again...problems with puter...he disabled it again. Pete: When you say a "good antivirus", which one are you thinking about?

[iisbob]

Your son is pretty much on track Kay. Sorry to hear about your troubles with Norton, maybe if you post what problems you're having ( please on a new thread! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif ) we may able to help you sort them out. I 've tried many differnt anti-virus programs, both at work and home-and i know Norton works great, but it can cause some conflicts with other 3rd party programs and windows.

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[kaos]

Someone also recently told me about his boss, who got an instant message from someone he didn't know. This individual recited some of his personal info, credit card numbers, etc, and told him he was tired of looking at the same old stuff in his computer, and to give him some new info. I happen to know this is not a hoax or made-up story

I agree Pete.That is completely true. AIM and ICQ (Which is even easier than AIM) can give someone who know's what they are doing, MANY important facts about you just by talking to you or knowing your ICQ number. It's very easy to get your IP address from ICQ just by knowing your #.


Another couple of questions. Talked to my son last night and he said that his understanding was that, without a firewall the perps can "probe" your ports, BUT unless you're on a print share or file share network, they really can't get in. Is that true?
No, that's not true. If you don't have a firewall, then it's relatively simple to get into your computer to upload a prog that will change your settings for you.

[kayofcircles]

Thank you all for info. And thanks to nimnorf for the question. Learned "important" stuff in this thread.

[iisbob]

No, that's not true. If you don't have a firewall, then it's relatively simple to get into your computer to upload a prog that will change your settings for you.

I strongly disagree with you kaos and i do have some not inconsiderable experiance with networking, and ah.. shall we say, " investigating " other's systems, and unless you use a brute force hacking program, or they happen to download something to your system, you won't be able to get into a person's computer that has their file/print sharing turned off and takes basic precautions. There is too much about the way the net works, including HTTP/FTP protocals and how systems " talk " to each other that people still misunderstand. It is a decent idea to run a firewall if you have no other way of protecting your system; however you not " easy " to hack into just becuause you don't have one.

%99 of the people who have had bad hacking experiances were because they inadvertantly downloaded a program ( read trojan, worm ) that gave all their info to the perpetrator-you can't just go into an open port and take over someones system without knowing what specific files to look for.

It can be disasterous if you get an experianced hacker into your system, but as i stated earlier-the majoriity of these guys don't waste their time with your basic home system, not enough challenge in it-it's the amatuer's who are trying to get into your computer most times, and unless you put up a sign saying something like " hey, my file/print sharing is open " then they don't have a clue a to how proceed, remember most of these kids learn their hacking skills ( or actually steal the progs to do it for them ) from the web itself.



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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 08-01-2001).]

[kaos]

Brute Force is exactly what I'm talking about iisbob. It is pretty easy, a friend and I have a couple computers set up to play such games with each other. I totally agree that only skiddies will target home PC's most of the time, and probably 95% of home users have nothing exciting on their PC. The protocals do make it harder, but, not having a firewall makes it alot easier. As far as getting someone to load a trojan on their comp, I would definately say, that is easy to get most people to do it. I'm not trying to say most people are dumb, but, I would say more people than not would open up their e-mail w/o knowing what's in there. JMO is all.

or they happen to download something to your system,
That's what I meant about uploading (meant download) a program that will change the settings.

Edit: Is this another case of me arguing with someone I completely agree with?
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif



[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 08-01-2001).]

[iisbob]

I humbly apologize kaos.

I misread your post and to me it looked as if you were saying that unless you absolutely had a firewall, and any port was open ( some have to be or you can't get on the net at all http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif ) that all someone had to do was " walk " into your system and do as they please.

To many people are getting their info from movies and the general media, where " hackers " can just type in a person's name and supposedly in less than 60 secs break any known encryption ( or even more stupendous use auotcad to design a worm-which is a program not a blueprint, geese http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ) I wonder how many people rushed out to best buy after the movie swordfish and tried to buy auotcad so they could build a " worm ".

The funny thing is, i've looked at some of these programs that are available on the net, and most of them are trojans or worms themselves. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif I recently had a young man at work approach us and wanted to know how he could repair his computer after it seems he downloaded one of these programs ( thinking erroneously that he could use it to attack and ex-girlfriends system ) and it turned out to be a virus, disabling his anit-virus program ( mcafee-though it was set up from what i could tell to look for any major brand ) and had pretty much wiped out his registry. he learned a valuable lesson that day.

I heartily endorse the average person to use all available security that they can get, and i firmly believe everyone should run a good anit-virus utility-stop the threat before it can ever begin.

It may sound at first that i'm contradicting myself when i say i don't use a personal firewall, but the fact is i have got steps in place to protect my system-they're just not readily visible to the average pc user.

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[kaos]

I misread your post and to me it looked as if you were saying that unless you absolutely had a firewall, and any port was open ( some have to be or you can't get on the net at all ) that all someone had to do was " walk " into your system and do as they please.

Heck, half the time I don't know what I'm saying. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I was just trying to say that just because File/Print Sharing is disabled, doesn't mean you're safe. I wanted Kay to know that a firewall is practically impenetrable, but not impossible. In other words there are ways around everything. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif I could care less if someone tries to hack me, if I spent all my time worrying about it, I couldn't have fun being on the net.
iisbob, one thing I have learned lately, I have no clue how to communicate with people on a BB. I will try to make my case clearer when I post, but, honestly, I'm not sure if I can. Just don't flame me (you haven't) and I will eventually get my point across. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[iisbob]

no prob kaos, i someones have that problem of making myself clear on the forums too. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

looks like so far i've only had to jump on one persons back so far, and he asked for it-i truely didn't want to, but by displaying his ignorance and animosity, he didn't leave me with much choice but to defend myself. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

It's terrible that some people will use the internet forums and chat rooms to display their grudges, knowing that they are protected by anonymity and this gives them the " bravery " to standup for themselves when in the real world they are afraid to make a stand.

I truely enjoy the diversity i see here, and have learned a great deal as well as had the opertunity to pass on my own hard learned lessons on the " personal confuser " http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I cherish the time i get to peruse these forums, and with only one exception, they've all been great people. I would hate to see this site turn into the warzone so many other forums feel into. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif


So far from the postings i've seen of yours Kaos you've posted good advice and have been very polite in your disagreements, i have no fear of getting critized by you. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[hiredgoonz]

Still no antivirus software, still no problems http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I'll let you know when the system dies http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[medic13]

Originally posted by nimnorf2:
iisbob,
How do you know so much! Really, you are all over this forum. Thanks for the lengthy reply. Answered questions I've wanted to know for years just never followed up on them. Really, you can get a virus just by opening an email, now? No attachment, no executable? WaaaaaH!
Oh and what about Command Anti-virus? The first post on this thread.
Thanks bud!

well trust me as a computer system builder I see people computers all day long that are infected with virus some you can easy get rid of some you fdsik / format and go on best protection for money is nortons or trend PC-cillin are the two I recommend



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my system
P3-933
asus mb cuv4x
512 mb pc 133
asus V7700 64 mb ddr G force
creative cd rom 52X
Hp CDRW
maxtor 30 gig ata 100 7200
promise ata 100 controller
19 inch viewsonic monotor PF790
case fan , hard drive fan