Water Fuel...(amazing)

[Mini-Me]

This is great stuff.

I wonder how the big oil companies feel about this kind of thing...
I suspect he will either be bought off, or killed off - big business on the scale of the oil companies do not like competition...

Water Fuel (http://ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/waterfuel.html)

[azzey]

That is really cool!

And if I might add... you spend WAY too much time on ebaumsworld! http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Mini-Me]

Maybe you're right, however, at the moment, I have my leg in a plaster-cast, so can't work, so am making the most of it!!!
:D

[sassie05]

I wonder why it is that this has not made national news!

[PrntRhd]

I wonder why it is that this has not made national news!
It is called HYDROGEN, the guy is using electrolysis to separate hydrogen from water per his first statement. He claims some sort of "proprietary" electrolysis is used, so you have to pay him to see what the trick is.
FYI electrolysis has been around a while, so his "proprietary" version had better be pretty darned good to pay him just to see it.

[Mini-Me]

Hmmmm.
Interesting...

How does electrolysis actually work?

EG: If you were to perform electrolysis in the lab on some plain filtered water, what is involved in doing it?

DON'T WORRY!!! - I don't wanna start making my own, I'm just not a chemist, and am curious as to how it actually works...
:)

[saphalline]

Electrolysis is the process of separating water into its diatomic gasses: Hydrogen and Oxygen. Water is H2O - two Hydrogen atoms connected to a single Oxygen atom at (I think) a 120.4 degree angle. If I'm remembering my chemical geometry correctly. I'll have to look that up...

Anyway, by subjecting water to an electrical current, the two gasses separate. Two molecules of water give one molecule of Oxygen and two molecules of Hydrogen. But of course since water is not electrically conductive by itself (a common misconception) you can't use pure water. Some sort of ionic bonded solvent (like NaCl, salt) is needed as a catalyst, if you will. I won't dive further into chemical jargon for a simple topic such as this, so read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis) if you want.

[Mini-Me]

Great - thanks.
:)
Reading link now...

[jeckgo]

dont' you know that it was invented first by a "FILIPINO" :)

[anton muzic]

the technology is called "fuel cells" :cool:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell.htm
( every spaceship that's gone up has had one to supply standby power and water)
there are a couple of companies specialising in it but georgy boy would rather put a billion into better efficiency of coal than spend more then 40 mill on this..wonder why??
Japan has embraced it...see some of their mob phones powered by fuel cells.
What is prohibitive is the catalyst of preference is platinum or palladium which are$$$.
Also, generally it takes 3 times the amount of power to generate electrolysis enough for 1 times the hydrogen amount (that could have been better said!)
Still, it is there and waiting....

[Sylvander]

"Also, generally it takes 3 times the amount of power to generate electrolysis enough for 1 times the hydrogen amount"
That's what I was wondering, but I didn't want to pour cold water on all the enthusiasm.

So how much energy must be invested [input] to get what return [output] of energy?
If there is no energy profit to me made by this process, that would explain why few are doing it, and no-one is making a big noise about it.

[PrntRhd]

There are politicians who sometimes advance hydrogen as a NON-POLLUTING source of energy and ALWAYS point out the end product is water vapor.
What they don't tell you :
The easiest source for collecting large amounts of HYDROGEN is a catalytic byproduct of refining HYDROCARBONS like oil and coal, and from natural gas, not the electrolysis of water. H2 is difficult to store as hydrogen likes to leak from the smallest flaws in containers, and there is a fire hazard if large amounts are stored.
Not so clean or nonpolluting or energy independent and pretty now huh?

The Japanese fuel cells for phones will run on alcohol (methanol?) the last time I checked, the fuel will be packaged in little containers like cigarette lighter fluid is now.
Nice link Anton Music!

[Mini-Me]

Facinating - thanks for all those who are commenting - I've read the link posted by Saph - interesting stuff.

[saphalline]

The point of fuel cells is not as a major source of energy, but as a battery alternative. Even if hydrogen-based fuel cells aren't that efficient to produce, none of you can claim that dry-cell batteries are any better. This is about portable energy, not energy production in and of itself. Besides, methanol fuel cells are where most of the R&D is today. Japan is a leader in this field and they're making grand progress.

[anton muzic]

some late mail on the state of play regarding hydrogen use...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4199381.html?page=1

[Cavalier90]

There have been other examples of engines that are supposed to be more efficient than the old internal combustion engine, for example the Stirling engine. This is classed as an external combustion engine, similar to a steam engine but better. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_cycle for a quick outline. Yet again the fuel lobby probably refused to support the idea as the engine can run on anything that burns to create heat.

[rond36]

Here is a good explanation of how electrolysis (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html) and a reverse electrolysis Hydrogen fuel cell (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html#c2) works.

About 20 years ago (1987-1992) I worked in a factory that makes electrical fuses. We used a machine called a "water welder (http://sra-solder.com/h20.htm)". It used electrolysis to produce Hydrogen and Oxygen (Brown's gas) (http://www.energyoptions.com/tech/browns.html) the gasses were then purged through a booster bottle filled with methanol to boost the temperature of the torch flame to over 5000 deg F. We used the torch to melt solder on the end caps of fuses.

[anton muzic]

Just an update (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2007-05-18T183735Z_01_N17393788_RTRUKOC_0_US-FUEL-HYDROGEN.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L3-Science+NewsNews-2)on other ways to make hydrogen...
clever stuff if it can be practically applied...
and here (http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html)is more with some discussion.

anton

[PrntRhd]

anton music,
That is really an interesting read. How does the refuel process work, replacement tanks?

[david eaton]

Hot air engines using the Stirling cycle have been around for years. Usually for low powers, where efficiency is not a problem. but developments by Phillips of Eindhoven have made it possible to use them in trucks. These engines are pressurised to about 3,500 PSI, and use helium as a working fluid! try sealing that.