System required for business use

[deddard]

Looking for a system which will keep going for a few years without the need for high-end specs.
Bearing in mind the fact that XP is likely to start getting bloated when MS concentrates on Vista, I need to allow a bit of headroom for XP slowing down; the machine will be running business apps for a local charity (word etc) so monstrous graphics aren't needed. A GByte of RAM would go in - I consider this the minimum now, but it doesn't need to be dual channel.
I've been thinking of a system based on an athlon 64 Venice core (3000), but would like a mobo with built in graphics to go with it. A SFF would be great, but a FDD is a prerequisite (still lots of stuff that requires it!)
Reliability is a big plus - stuff that's likely to start frying isn't going to impress!
OS would be XP pro
Budget is small (yeah, I know, that doesn't mean anything!) but I prefer to spend extra on reliability than go for the absolute cheapest stuff. SATA 2 would be great - anything to keep things a bit speedier at the core is welcome.

Suggestions would be welcome.

[saphalline]

You can't get what you want on a budget. You can cut back on the CPU and vid card, but the rest of my recommendations would be the same as for a gaming system. Most likely even the mobo, because once you pick onboard video, graphical performance goes down the toilet. And if you're thinking about putting Vista on it later, hah! You'll need a dedicated vid card for that! Sure, you can turn down the effects, but the core performance detriment caused by onboard video vs a dedicated vid card is too great to ignore. And reliability? Skimp on the mobo or PSU and you can kiss that good-bye!

What numbers are you working with? You want something that will most likely last for a few years? You'll still have to spend $90-100 on the mobo and the PSU.

[deddard]

Thanks for the reply Saphalline - I was looking at onboard video originally, but as you pointed out, Vista (in a few years maybe!) will require something differnet.
I was looking at spending around £45 on the motherboard (which is in line with your suggestion in $) and if I can't get a decent SFF with built in PSU, then going for a truepower 2 (which I usually use - they're pretty reliable)

I guess an overall price (excluding OS & Software) would be in the £450 area (about $900) for the parts (including a monitor) - bear in mind that over here in the UK we have 17% tax to go on everything, so the US prices aren't directly comparable (excluding the general rip off we get over here anyway)

[saphalline]

Why don't you just move over here? :p

Seriously, though, I'd recommend going the Intel route. A lowly Celeron D with a cheap dedicated vid card (like a 256MB Radeon X550) would serve you better than a Sempron 64 with onboard video. Not to mention you can slap that Celeron D into a Core 2 capable mobo and have a nice upgrade path. Since you don't need full-on performance, you can go with a mobo like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813121048). It's an Intel mobo, so you're guaranteed to have the best reliability and compatibility that you could possibly gamble on (since nothing is a "sure bet" :p). It also has onboard video should you decide to go that route for now - which would be acceptable if you plan on adding a vid card soon. Just don't expect great system responsiveness in the mean time. I also like that mobo for its 3 PCIe x1 slots and 3 PCI slots. Good upgradability using today's expansion cards and tomorrow's.

For the RAM, a 1GB kit of DDR2-667 should be on the list. It's an investment for the future when a Core 2 CPU is installed and is relatively cheap (especially when compared to today's prices on DDR400 and DDR2-800).

Once you've got a PSU picked out, the other components can be chosen based on price. An optical drive, a case (which doesn't need to be all that great), a hard drive (any ol' cheap SATA hard drive), maybe a fan or two - whatever. That should still leave room for a monitor of some kind. Or at least, on this side of the pond it would. I don't know about that 17% VAT, though.

[deddard]

Thanks for the advice.
Intel....Intel... Oh yes, I remember them :D
I do tend to favour AMD, but I guess that's a bit blinkered. Will certainly check out the Intel prices here.

As for moving over there - it's tempting some times! Just had a friend move over there, and it was a case of 'when you come back over, can you bring me a....... 'cause the price difference is huge!'

[saphalline]

Yes, Intel is still around. :p

AMD's modest empire was built upon the dollars spent by a loyal fan-base. I won't begrudge anyone their loyalty, but I'll argue tooth and nail over pure technology. ;) AMD has enjoyed a near monopoly among the DIY crowd over the last few years, due mostly to the fact that AMD's CPU's have been technologically superior to Intel's CPU's. But all that has changed with Core 2.

AMD still has its fans, as does Intel, but I'm no one's fan. I find the best, and I recommend it.

[classicsoftware]

Here is my reccommendation:

Buy the cheapest decent system you can for now and get a new one when Vista comes along. Anything that's going to be cheap now will not run Vista well and you will have to buy Vista as well for close to $200.00. Do what Saphaline says. Get the Celeron. With 500MB of RAM, any business APP and general surfing performance will be fine, heck they will be more than fine. My ceollege aged daughter and my mother both have little ACER boxes that cost around $400.00

This (http://computing.kelkoo.co.uk/b/a/sbs/111801/14391850.html) one is only 350 pounds.

The newer systems even have SATA drives.....

[juniper]

Hate to do this flame away hehe! But my strongest recommendation for corporate use that does not have a special need I have to strongly recommend getting a Dell, HP, or Compaq. I know I had this issue before getting into corporate world myself, but it takes the liability off you when it breaks, Its covered under warranty (a good one not a send part to internet company waite 3 days pay for shipping and restocking whatever), All patches and updates are in one vendor location (huge plus) and serviceable by certified techs/consultants found in any phone book (your client looks warmly on this, Building custom PCs is NOT seen as job security to the tech its actualy more a liabilty), and if/when you leave Joe Shmoe replacement PC dude will not be flaming your handy work cause he like NVIDIA better then ATI.

[Erik]

Well if this is a corporate environment then I agree with juniper 100%, there is no better path then a business grade HP or Dell. They are not necessarily the best PCs, but the best business move. If you are talking about one PC for your home business then it is a different story, go ahead and build yourself.

The biggest plus with the big makers is that you can order 1, 100, or 1,000 of the same exact machine. This means you have a stockpile of parts that are all interchangable, so no need to start doing OS reinstalls when a video card goes bad. You can have a few pre built machines sitting around and then when one goes down you just swap with a hot spare. Then you can get around to fixing the bad machine whenever you have time. Have a machine with a bad motherboard, but good HD, and the user has important data on the HD? Easy, just put the old HD in a new machine. All of the hardware is identical, so no worries with it working properly.

[classicsoftware]

I could not diagree more. If you are buying Dell or HP you are getting ripped period end of report. As for Dell. If there support was not in the toilet they would not be spending 100 million dollars to upgrade their support department.

What machine you should buy depends on many factors. If you are buying a single PC it may be on or if you are buying 100's it may be another. The place that builds PC's for me will build a PC and ship it to me. I install all of the apps that I like and remove the drive and send it to them. They image the drive and then build 100 or 1000 identical PC's with all of the apps installed exactly the way I want it done. In addition they will keep the image on file and send me an identical PC any time a need to add one.

That's real service and you just don't get that from Dell. In addition they have parts that are not proprietary so when your HP blows a power supply and you have to shell out $200.00 for a 250 watt power supply, you'll understand the meaning of value.

[mjc]

I agree with Erik and Juniper...but I want to extend it a little beyond home office. Basically, I want to extend it to include building your own/custom if you are running a small business, like a shop fo some sort, something a little bigger than a 'home' business. If you do all the work/run it all yourself or in the family...maybe one additional employee, that is what I'm talking about.

And remember...there is a difference between the majpr manufacturers 'home' and 'business' grade machines. If you get a 'home' grade machine, then no, there isn't too much of an advantage over building it.

[Erik]

Yes, I didn't specifically mean HOME busines, just that it is a small compnay owned and operated by one or a few people. Basically if you need only a couple of PCs for the whole business then you can do as you like.

Yes there are differences between a home dekstop and a business workstation. Most makers will offer a similiar model but in a home and business grade machine. Yes you still get propriatary parts, but they are still the same for every one of those machines. One of the client sites I work at has contracts with HP. They have thousands of HP machines, but only a handful of models. All of them basically use the same parts too, just differing in the amounts of RAM, number of processors, etc. They aren't great PCs, but they serve the purpose.

The other factor is they obviously don't use the HP support, they have us there for real onsite support. All HP provides is the warranty for the machines, so we can call and say ship us xxx, and they ship it next day. We get the good parts, send back the old.

If you are running a smaller business, with no regular onsite IT, then looking for who will proved the best service is an issue too. If you work with a company who will image all of your PCs for you that is great, and if you are looking for that service then it is good. If you want to have all applications and such installed at your location then it isn't much of a factor.

Basically my standpoint is that I would never want a Dell or HP or whatever as my personal PC, I build them myself to do whatever task I require. For a small business only requiring a couple of PCs, then it is a toss up, either option works well. For a medium sized company, to big to build every machine individually and to small to have regular IT on full time, then something like classic is recommending is probably the best bet. If you are very large then the big boys can really give a lot of good options, but not necessarily the best machines for the money.

[mjc]

A couple of years ago city hall was looking for a couple of new machines...I put in a bid on providing them, but found out a little too late and my bid didn't make the deadline...but they ended up with stock HP machines (3 of them) and a service contract. All by some firm who does what Erik is describing...that firm totally manages the whole thing...including images of the drives and all software, not just the OS. They even come in and do all the updates to Windows and what not. Yes, city hall is paying a lot more than I would have charged them...it is only tax dollars, after all, but they are happy with the service.

[classicsoftware]

They bought the service the firm provided, not the HP name. If you could have provided the service that's a differemt story. Just because it's HP doesn't make it great

[mjc]

Yep...but over $40,000 for three machines...mid class, at the time, P4s and three years service contract seems a bit steep...and the thing is it is at least a 3 hr trip per service call...so any thing after noon gets put off to the next day.

[classicsoftware]

It's a shame you missed the deadline as you could have saved them a bundle and made a bundle yourself. :(

[juniper]

The other factor is they obviously don't use the HP support, they have us there for real onsite support.

Thats IT right there!!! Couldnt have said it better. You are the support its what the company is paying you for, If you need to call HP for support then dont build your own machines either.

All by some firm who does what Erik is describing...that firm totally manages the whole thing...including images of the drives and all software, not just the OS. They even come in and do all the updates to Windows and what not.

This is what my firm did, (Hope your not in the Mid west MJC that coulda been us hehe) Full network management and support. We did County Government, Schools, Large and small Corporations, Hospitals, Doctors offices, insurance companies, we would not step foot in a private home HEHE! We got in the hardware, PC tech wiped the drives built fresh for clients environment (To specs the system Engineer gave him) and imaged himself if needed (Microsoft engineers had to get Altiris certified and Novell engineers Zenwork certified). Sytem Engineer Got server shell installed the RAID controller and drives installed OS/AD/E-Directory/Echange/groupwise whatever while Infratructure Engineer installed the firewalls, switches, routers, VPNs etc and wiring techs did the wiring. All Engineers had to take at least one certification test a month so we stayed current.

System Support Engineer and PC tech then supported that clients environment after install, Directory Migrations, Mail server Migrations, server hardware upgrades,etc..

and the thing is it is at least a 3 hr trip per service call...so any thing after noon gets put off to the next day.

We sold 1 hr support contracts at a heafty price LOL!

When you are buying a manufactured PC you are buying hardware and warranty on that hardware (warranty big issue with companies) You are then selling your service to adapt it into the clients environment and support it thats the real money without the worry of hardware liability. Remember though you just bought hardware you should wipe the drive and build the OS yourself like normal and image if needed yourself. 1 hour of my labor is way more then the proffit you would make on assembling a PC it isnt worth my time, it isnt worth the headache or embarassment of my name being on a PC that had a hard drive fail and I picked the individual parts. (Ive even gone as far as recommending Alienware when they needed some horse power hehe.)

Its also nice to pull up the service tag# and see everything thats in the machine instead of opening the case searching part# to see what drivers are needed on a custom PC you didnt build. I can tell you also when a company gets serious about their IT they will go with equipment that has proven uptime and name behind it theyll yank all custom machines like right now, Ive done many custom server removals and replaced with Compaq, HP or Dell I wouldnt even concider building a custom server anymore unless it had specific needs.