Just a general question for future reference

[ErnieK]

On new computers they are now loading the installation files on a hidden partition and NOT supplying a Win CD. This means that if you want to Fdisk and format your HDD you lose all your installation files, and have to go out and buy Windows seperately.

Now, would it be possible to UN-hide the partition (using a program like the latest version Disk image from Power Quest) and then copy all the files hidden here onto a CD-R disk? If so how would it be done?

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Ernie

[Rick]

I have not seen a system with the Install files on a hidden partition
If however they are placing the I386 folder in a protected folder or separate partition
I see no reason why you won’t be able to change the attributes of the folder and copy it and or it’s contents to a cd-r

If you have one of these systems .
Did you also receive a Registration Number and or forms for MS?
In the normal format it is on the back of the MS manual including a bar code.
along with a mail in registration

[Lucias_Clay]

Are you talking about the recovery disc? I know that windows xp is set up that way and I know of no way to un-hide them. This is part of there new registration program to keep people from using multiple copies. However if you have your regestration number you have(or are supposed to have) a certain number of times you can reload without having to re-register.

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"....I'm tired of being lonesome, ornery and mean." (Waylon Jennings)(Rest in Peace my friend.)

[This message has been edited by Lucias_Clay (edited 06-02-2002).]

[ErnieK]

No I have'nt got one but a friend has, and when he has probs he asks me to look at it. He did not recieve a Win CD and was told that the files are on a hidden partition that can be accessed through the use of a special floppy - NOT a recovery CD as supplied by the likes of PackBell thus enabling you to re-install windows. Not sure if he has a registrtration number. This seems to be the way they are now selling new machines in the UK at the likes of PCworld and Comet etc.

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Ernie

[sea69]

right nasty if you asked me!

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/index.html)

[ErnieK]

Sea
You are the master of the under-statement. This amounts to a hidden price increase. Charging the same price for computers, and the charging for a Win CD. This amounts to a hidden increase of about 20% or more depending of the cost of what you go for.

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Ernie

[YODA74]

apparently they have a low counter top at the store so you don't have to bend over so far Heh! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

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YODA74@windows-sucks.com
CCMR (http://www.dreamwater.net/tech/yoda74/index.html)

PUSH TO TEST. RELEASE TO DETONATE.
[Closed captioned for the thinking impaired.]

[Paul Komski]

What's with the "special" floppy? It does sound very like a PB setup - but you say its not. If you've got the pc's make/model maybe there's more info on its website. It's not a Compaq by any chance - with hdd bios.

There should be no problem in formatting the C: Drive in order to do a clean reinstall, since the partition is hidden, perhaps that's where the special floppy comes in. Just take care not to delete the partitions though. I would imagine you should be able to unhide the attributes with either DriveImage or certainly with PartitionMagic and then decide what to do when you can see the partition in Explorer.




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Take nice care of yourselves - Paul
"People in glasshouses ..... shouldn't undress during daylight!"

[Rick]

I think the Largest objection to a setup like this
If the drive fails .. No number of special floppies will save you the expense of installing another drive and having to Purchase a second copy of the Operating system.

At least with a restore disk you don’t have to spend the full retail price to restore the system

Added at edit
Come to think of it this does stink like Compaq and Packard bell.
The days of requiring a drive branded to restore win95 on a Compaq should be long over with

[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 06-06-2002).]

[ErnieK]

Paul
I checked with him as to make. It is a PB. And the floppy is the only restore disk supplied. And RICK is correct. If the HDD fails, or if for some reason the disk has to be FDISKed, then this floppy is totally usless. When he first bought the computer I told him to see if he could purchase "Restore CD's" and he was told no. These are only supplied with the high end - £1500.00 and above computers ($2190.00 US). So hence my question. He is the type that will not let me "Experiment" on his computer until it is almost to late. So if I can tell him that it definately is possible to un-hide and copy the files to CD he will let me do so. Once I have the instructions. This is known as trust with reservations http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Yoda
You are correct they do screw you right royally over here, and with a typical conman smile on thier faces http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif. This is why I try and suggest that people try and build on their own. That way you get what you pay for.

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Ernie

[Rick]

May I suggest for incentive you point out to this person the Price of the Full Retail Price of his operating system.
Or contact MS with the Registration number and request a replacement set of cd’s

[Paul Komski]

The reason I wondered PB was that I have one that I bought at the end of last summer. I needed a PC in a hurry and went to Dublin and bought this PB iMedia. The main reason for the choice was the bundled software. Local repairers hadn't fixed my old pc and the really lucky thing from all of this was that I then found this site and repaired the old one myself.

I digress. My system has/(had) a hidden partition that contained the restore software and the OS. The restore floppy just enabled accessing it and of choosing a number of options including just installing the OS. There was also an option to copy the restore "disks" to CDs to recover the disk space. I did this and three restore CDs were created and a "new" 2MB partition appeared. Obviously this wouldn't work without a CD-burner.

I thought I would be able to see the OS files on these CDs but the many folders (mostly named with just a number) themselves mostly contain a set of files called Files.arj, Files.prc, Part.prc, etc. along with Tag.xxx files relating to all the pre-XP windows OSes. So the only way to copy the OS files would be from the Windows/Options/Cabs files on the HDD (obviously best just after a factory restore) and being able to see my partition would not have revealed the structure of the Windows OS "CD" even though I have the Product ID stamped on the pc Case. But I guess I could use this to get a copy from M$ should that ever be necessary.

I wonder if your scenario is similar. It would be worth sticking in that floppy and seeing what options you are given or running the "Smart Restore" program from the installed PB Utility Software.

I'm also not sure how you would copy the CD's on the partition without the software to do it for you unless they are called RecoverDisk1, etc... I never got to look at mine since it was in the days before I had learned anything meaningful about partition management. Hope this is of some use. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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Take nice care of yourselves - Paul
"People in glasshouses ..... shouldn't undress during daylight!"

[ErnieK]

Thanks Paul
I thought that this would be the scenario. In other words, you have to buy a seperate OS if the HD goes on the blink. I have heard that MS do not supply a replacement Win CD if the drive goes ta-ta's. So will speak to him and see if I can have a go.

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Ernie

[Paul Komski]

M$ might not supply it but I would expect PB to supply replacement CDs for restoring the hidden partition in such a scenario - though I haven't checked that out - and also who knows if PB will disappear as they already have across the Atlantic.

First thing I would check out on the PC is for a Folder called "PC ToolKit and Services" and two things inside it (if its like mine). 1. ActivDoc for all the information on the Computer's Software/Hardware etc and 2. Smart Restore for the various restore options; these go from just restoring one program or one driver; to a resore of the OS only; to a quick restore; to a factory restore etc.

One final point. I wish I had found out a way of copying the partition's contents to CDs rather than using the Utility Software, which releases the space occupied afterwards. If I should now use the restore CDs (which is unlikely coz I'm now using DriveImage) it is very tedious reinserting the CDs anytime a restore is done. When the software was on the partition it was all done automatically.

[This message has been edited by Paul Komski (edited 06-08-2002).]

[ErnieK]

Thanks Paul
I will have look for the folders

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Ernie

[skhips]

A friend of mine has the same situation but with a compaq laptop, hidden partition and the HDD has had a code written to it so a replacemnt wouldnt work until a utility was run from the said magic floppy disk, you could however get replacemnt CD's from compaq that would re create this hidden partition.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[kenz]

This little 'trick' along with the new M$ licencing process sounds like another money grabber from the industry.

I do not know what consumer protection applies in your country, but I would certainly have your friend check what sort of warranty is available in the event of a hard disc failure. Whilst most hardware is warranted for 1-3 years, we do not actually purchase software or OS, we purchase a licence to use and we, the consumer assume (expect) that licence is valid ad infinitum.

Perhaps your friend should go back to the supplier and get some clarification on this.

Regards

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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There's no future in tomorrow - it'll soon be a thing of the past

[Supa Dupa]

My brother received an HP computer from his father in law for Christmas. It has a 7 GB hidden partition where the installation files are stored. He didn't receive an OS disk, just HP software disks(junk). His father in law purchased 10 computers for the whole family. HP was contacted in regards to getting reinstallation disks and HP's answer was they didn't purchase licenses for the OS(XP Home edition). If you want to reinstall the OS, you would use the boot floppy that came with the system, and choose one of the install options.

I think they got ripped off for the following reasons:

1). There was no mention of not purchasing a license for the OS.
2). The systems were advertised as having 40 GB hard drives, not 33.2 GB hard drives, if you subtract the unusable hidden partition.
3). HP has EDITED service. My brother was told that there was no way to get rid of the partition if he wanted to purchase his own copy of XP and install it, and if he did manage to accomplish doing it, it would void his warranty.
4). The machines are piles of crap.

I've told his father in law the next time he does a mass purchase, to give me the contract. I'm local, will give better service, and will even tutor some of the less savvy users in the family.

Supa Dupa

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There's a hole in my memory, dear Liza, dear Liza, there's a whole in my memory, dear Liza, a hole.
Then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry, then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, disable it.

[This message has been edited by Paleo Pete (edited 06-12-2002).]

[Paul Komski]

I've not come across warranties being voided by the installation-of or the upgrading-of an OS - but others may know better. The disk is still 40GB regardless of the partition (which is easy to remove - though the installation software would obviously be lost).

Salespeople in all walks of life seem more than capable of being economical with the truth though!

[ErnieK]

Paul
The computer I had before I built this one this one I bought from Evesham.com. When I had to phone the help line (which was VERY frequently - They replaced it eventually) I had to have the computer set EXACTLY as it had arrived from them. No partitions allowed, not even software tweaks, as this voided the warranty. They would not even contemplate looking at it if I had altered it in any way. They grudginly accepted that to operate the computer I had to install something. This after I was told by one techie to run the computer for 3-4 weeks with nothing else installed except the OS. I think you will surmise correctly my reaction to that. They eventually said it was oK to install software, but they kept saying ALL problems were software related. This meant that to get an engineer out I had to practically un-install everything except for basic DTP and Office programs. I had the engineer out to the house about 8-9 times in under six months before they eventually replaced it. One time one of the faults happened when the engineer was sitting in fornt of it and he looked and asked to phone his supervisor, I said yes. He then explained the fault, I heard the supervisor reply "That cannot happen" the engineer aggreed, the supervisor said "Ignore it". 2 months later they changed it after my threatening to see what legal action I could take. After that no probs with it. One of the things that helped me make the decision to build my own was seeing the comment "WARNING" - "This customer Likes To Tinker With His Computer" on the engineers sheet. (I still have that worksheet - Should not have but do)) At that time I knew a lot less than the little I know today. The only tinkering I did was to set things like DMA, things that are basic to enhanced running of the computer. So yes, At least here in the UK warranties restrict what you can install and do - severly. I know one person who bought hos computer just over 2 years ago with 3 year warranty. I has 32MB Ram and he cannot install more or he will invalidate the warranty. (seal on the computer which is replaced if the engineer calls)

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Ernie

[mjc]

Actually the only way to get a computer and allow you to put on it what you want and have the ability to tinker til your heart's content is to build it yourself....all manufacturers warranties have some kind of restrictions in them, at least over here in the States if you haven't done alot and follow the procedure of running the restore disk (to get it back to factory specs) then they will at least make an attempt to honor it (sometimes with a great deal of arm twisting). Some are more lenient than others, even allowing for expansion or the simple addition of more memory, but many if the procedure was not done in a XX-maunfacturer's approved service center will invalidate the warranty.

And this current round of "the files are on the hard drive" to restore from is not really the manufacturer's fault...M$ wants it that way. the scenario for the future is even a little scarrier...you buy a computer, and get a disk, there are no software titles on it but basically links to servers that will allow you to download the parts of the software that you need to operate the machine (and only those parts), with the bulk of the OS residing on a server somewhere that you need to log into in order to use. Which would bring us back full circle to the days of "dumb" terminals with the only thing local being file storage.

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mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Paul Komski]

HeHe I'm obviously too ignorant and naive. Ernie (likes to tinker)..; sounds almost like a school report! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Guess it just means one must read the small print very carefully.

Would you also have lost the warranty if you had gone into dos and done format C!! (by mistake of course - LOL).


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Take nice care of yourselves - Paul
"Those who say they don't let little things annoy them have never tried to sleep in a room with a buzzing mosquito."

[ErnieK]

Paul
That was their other stock reply. It was how I learned (the hard way - without help - and no PCGUIDE to assist) The computer came with JUST basic windows installation and Win98 disk. No recovery disk. So I suppose they did me a good turn in the long run. After all if it had worked I would not have found this site eventually. Maybe that was their intention, make the home user learn to do the work and pay of any decent techie's

mjc
Where this theoretical idea WILL fall down is with users like myself. I stay in an area where there will be no broadband or cable etc, of any sort, in the forsee-able future, ie. the next 5-10years, if then. So I (we) will never get the chance to download the software. Or is this M$'s plan. If you cannot load software you cannot use the computer and therfor you will have no complaints about Windows OS http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Ernie

[Paul Komski]

I learnt another hard lesson about support following the purchase of my first pc here. Had great and personal support for 6 months. Then the firm suddenly went into liquidation. Not only did I lose the support but my laptop was in for an upgrade (to colour) and it took 12 months to get it back from the receiver!!

I can echo you on the broadband - just getting a tel phone line connected to the house took 6months - and it only had to come 400yds!

[mjc]

That's right, there seems to be a disconnect between the ears of some of these marketing wonders....the vast majority of the world does not and will not have any access to high speed internet for years to come, if ever. So are we to be penalized or suffer through tying up our phone lines for weeks in order to use our computers?

I think that if it happens we would no longer need to worry about whether or not M$ is a monoply.....there will be a number of Linux versions out that will prove it otherwise. M$ would go the way of many other companies that have adopted idiotic policies, because they thought the general public was in LOVE with them, but in reality the public just tolerated them because the were commonplace.

The fact that an alternate OS like Linux can have so many versions and be gaining both acceptance by the public and software manufacturers proves that M$ is not the only game in town, and it is about time that their marketing dept. realizes this or they will not be able to play the game for much longer.

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mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Anubis]

Microsoft is a long way from being dead, whether you like it or not its very conceivable their will be a Microsoft for at least the next 20 years. The amount of Enterprise clients that use Microsoft is mind boggling, that is where they make the bulk of their money. Sure consumer market helps but you get a company upgrading all their boxes at once and you can easily reach 100K just licensing. I have never used Linux and probably never will, maybe I will if I were to buy a 2nd box with Windows XP and wanted to make a firewall box with the present box but that will be a decision in the future. Now you CANNOT blame Microsoft for proprietary computer makers(Gateway, Compaq, HP, et all) not buying licenses. That is their choice! Microsoft gives them a price, they either purchase the licenses to the betterment of all or leave it and make some funky ass systems as have been posted about here. They are too busy undercutting each other and ripping people off with component pricing to worry about whether someone gets a "real" Windows CD. In fact it makes more sense for them and the stores that sell the boxes to NOT give you the CD 'cause it means they can collect more money for needless repairs. Now my advice is to find a custom builder you trust or build the systems yourself, personally I don't have much manual dexterity but have a builder who does a good job.

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I can feel the wheel, but I can't steer
When my thoughts become my biggest fear
Ah, what's the difference, I'll die
In this sick world of mine

[mjc]

As to my "blaming" M$ for shortcomings of proprietary computers....I am not. M$ has moved to a policy of not providing the "restore" CD let alone a full version of the OS. M$ was the one who instituted the restore CD, not the OEMs...it was not a cost savings measure for the OEMs...M$ used to have manufacture the CDs, then it fell to the OEMS to provide the CDs, now there are no CDs, how convenient!
http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/05/01/000501opfoster.xml
http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/05/29/000529opfoster.xml

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mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[iisbob]

i kinda just hung in the background until i saw this post by Anubis and felt that a response is in order to clear up some obvious ignorance on the subject of retail PC Vendors & MS OS.

Now you CANNOT blame Microsoft for proprietary computer makers(Gateway, Compaq, HP, et all) not buying licenses. That is their choice! Microsoft gives them a price, they either purchase the licenses to the betterment of all or leave it and make some funky ass systems as have been posted about here. They are too busy undercutting each other and ripping people off with component pricing to worry about whether someone gets a "real" Windows CD.

That statement could not be further from the truth-retail vendors are forced by MS to purchase liscenses for the distribution of any Windows OS, and these companies are forced to only sell their systems with the newest version of Windows that MS officially has released-and they cannot even sell a system without an OS due to the restrictions MS has placed upon them; don't believe me? Call a big name like Dell { or Compaq/HP } and see if you can get any PC with an OS other than XP.

You'd have to be completely blind to not have seen Big Blue's ( IBM )marketing strategy lately on getting back to the top of the Corperate PC world by pushing Linux-which is after all a child of the venerable Unix platform that has been ( and still is ) running the internet you use today, and it's free-what more could a business want??!

As an IT admin for the last 17 years i've seen all the versions of windows OS's and used them, and also suffered thru some of the silliest restrictions from MS you can imagine.I've also used Unix, Linux, and even remeber the old CPM systems that pre-dates Bill. As prevelant and common as MS is in the business world, They are beginning to make the same mistake IBM made when Bill first appeared on the scene. Linux is not some " midnight fancy ", it's not only a viable altenative to windows ( and getting user friendlier ever day ) but in the last year or so at various IT functions i've attended ( and matter of fact i'm at one now ) companies are starting to take the possibility of Linux quite seriously.

Short of it is, these retail companies are bound by their liscensing aggreement with MS on which version of Windows they can sell with their systems, and how they can distribute that liscense. Dell is one of the few companies out there that at least does provide you with OS CD's.

MS's attempt to foil " pirating ", only hurts the legitimate consumer in the end, and people have long memories where their pocket books are concerned.

it didn't take but a couple of years for Bill to topple IBM-who were the only game in town for nearly half a century-you didn't get any kind of Computer if it wasn't an IBM before Apple/Bill. So it's very concievable that MS could wake up and find itself in bankruptcy court in the near future if it doesn't watch how it treats the consumer.

Bottom line is, if you want %100 personal PC support-build it yourself. Retail PC companies do not make money off their support of you and your purchase-especially as the prices for hardware continue to fall, it'll make less and less sense for them to keep losing[/] money on a system you only paid a few hundred dollars for. It's a business case of where it'll start costing them more money to provide you support for this machine than the profit they made off of it selling it to you.









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iisbob

[i]There is no such thing as a stupid question; just an improper one.-my own belief

[mjc]

AMEN, Brother Bob http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[ErnieK]

Well said isobob
I think we will see our friend Bill selling of a good part of his empire over the next couple of years. He has backed himself into a corner over the past 18 months or so with the policies that M$ has been adopting. The average consumer has no choice, at this moment in time, as to what OS he/she has on his/her computer. The average person (like myself) at this moment is put of with the likes of Linux because we read about having to work with command lines etc. I know that this is/has changed a lot over the last 6 months or so, and continues to do so. I will at that time consider looking at linux for myelf, also at this moment in time the restrictions (lack of support for) on software/hardware for Linux is also another major drawback. When the software/hardware manufacturers wake up and realise the future demand for Linux, and build their software and drivers, accordingly, then when people look to buy a new, or first, computer they will seriously consider Linux. But at this moment the restrictions in software gives the average user no choice. It is my opinion that this restriction is in a great part due to the pressure put on them by M$. All, large and small, software manufacturers need to get
M$ certification to fully sell their products.

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Ernie