first time builder asks for advice on his choice of parts

[krelian]

Hi there. I bumped into this forum by accident something like 2 weeks ago while researching for my first computer build. Enough lurking, thanks to some of the threads I read here I have some ideas and I would really appreciate any advice on them.

I live in the UK (though I am not British, soory for my English just in case) so obviously I am tied to UK shops, no Newegg and low US prices for me. I will have something between 600-750 pounds by mid January but I already have an idea for a decent build.
The machine will be used for work, surfing the net, playing Total War games and maybe occassionaly some other strategies or a FPS.
I am trying to get all the components from a single supplier (maximum 2) to cut down on delivery costs.

Ok so here it goes (all prices include VAT)


Case plus PSU

Antec SLK3700 BQE Black Quiet Midi Tower Case - 350W SmartPower PSU 50Ł http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=CASANTSLK3700BQ&Link=SearchResults

Antec NSK4400 ATX Mini Tower Case 380W 60 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=CASANTNSK4400&Link=SearchResults

Antec Sonata II Piano Black Quiet Case - 450W SmartPower Silent PSU 80Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=CASANTSONIIPIAN&Link=SearchResults

OK I know that I need a good Antec case with a good Antec PSU. I thought about buying an integrated set case + PSU since it is always one part less for a noob to connect wrong. The Sonata II seems decent and should be powerful enough. From what I have read the Core 2 Duo are not power hungry. Generaly 80 pounds is probably an absolutely maximum amount of money I am willing to spend on the case and the PSU. The looks of the case are irrelevant it just has to be functional and relatively cheap. I tried to find set up a case plus 550 W Antec PSU but I ended up in the 120 pounds area and this is too much.

THE CPU

INTEL CORE 2 DUO E6300 1066FSB SOCKET 775
http://www.techfever.co.uk/products.asp?partno=8323 124 incl VAT

INTEL CORE 2 DUO E6300 1066FSB SOCKET 775
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=CPUINTE6300OEM&CategoryId=9.12&Link=Featured 114 incl VAT

Ok, I am deffinately going for the E6300. The E6400 has a faster clock but the same amount of cache so it does not seem worth the increase in price, especialy on my budget. The E 6600 is really good fast clock, 4 MB of cache but this one is waaaaay out of my budget so this is probably the easiest choice. Now the thing is that one is OEM and another one is retail. On the site the OEM CPU is described as "Supplied with Intel referance heatsink & fan" whatever that means.

GRAPHICS CARD

XpertVision GeForce 7600GT 256MB DDR3 PCI-Express 90 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=GRAXVIS7600GT&CategoryId=6.2&Link=Featured


Galaxy GeForce 7900GS 256MB OC Silent DDR3 PCI-Express 135 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=GRAGAL7900GS2Z&Link=SearchResults


XpertVision GeForce 7900GS 256MB DDR3 PCI-Express 135 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=GRAXVIS7900GSS&Link=SearchResults


Ok now basicaly I have limited myself to 2 cards. The budget choice would be the 7600 GT. It seems the best card in the less than 100 pounds group.
However according to the Gamespot's graphics card test the 7900 GS is the absolutely best choice when it comes to power/pound. All other 20 pixel pipelines cards seem to be much more expensive and so the 7900 GS seems a real bargain.
If I don't earn enough by mid January to buy the 7900 GS than it is a no brainer but if I will get the funds then I am torn between the last two cards. Identical price and almost all of the specs but one of them says "Zalman cooling solution" while the other one does not have any kind of info on cooling. Besides I am not sure whether these cards are OEM or retail and whether it matters in any way.

HARD DRIVE

Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6V160E0 160GB Serial ATA II 43 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=HDDMAX6V160E0&Link=SearchResults

No brainer it seems. I don't need anything bigger than 160-200 GB and it has a fair price on it.

MOTHERBOARD
MSI 965P NEO-F Intel P965 + ICH8 PCIe Motherboard 70 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=MOBMSI965PNEO&Link=SearchResults

OK. Now this motherboard seems really sweet, especialy for its price. Can anyone tell me where is the trick in this offer? For me it seems that this mobo has every needed feature at a price much lower than other mobo's which offer similar quality.
I am not really sure whether it has an integrated audio card and a LAN card. The description says something about a "Audio codec Realtek® 883." "Flexible 8-channel audio with jack sensing. " but does it mean it has an integrated sound card? Same for LAN "Supports 10/100/1000 Mb/s" but is this equal to "has a LAN card" ?

I have also been considering these two but the MSI one above seems to be the best deal.

ASROCK SOCKET 775 CONROEXFIRE-ESATA2 SOUND/LAN 1066FSB 54 incl VAT supports 667
http://www.techfever.co.uk/products.asp?partno=4753

ASUS SOCKET 775 P5B SOUND/LAN 1066FSB 88 incl VAT supports 800
http://www.techfever.co.uk/products.asp?partno=6156

An integrated sound card would be nice (I will have to use stereo headphones for 90 % of the time) and I don't want integrated graphics since I am already paying for the Geforce 7600/7900 and see no reason to pay for some bundled crap which will bever be used.

MEMORY

OCZ 512MB DDR2 PC2-5400 Value Series (OCZ2667512V) 40 Ł times 2
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=MEMOCZ667512V&Link=SearchResults

Adata 1024MB PC6400 Dual Channel Extreme CAS 4.0 Retail Boxed 95 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=MEMADA1GBPC640E&Link=SearchResults

OK so here I have a few questions. For now I can not afford more than 1 GIG of RAM but I think that by June I will be able to buy another GIG. Now the problem is: if I buy two of the OCZ 512 MB 5400 RAM will I be able to add 6400 ram in the future. Must all the Ram on the mobo have the same speed, in other words? Will it kill the performance of my system if I will have mixed Ram speed?

DWD RW
Samsung SH-S182D 18x18 DVD±RW ReWriter (Black) 25 Ł
http://www.gladiatorcomputers.com/ProductDetail.aspx?StockCode=DVDSAMSHS182D&Link=SearchResults


Looks like another easy choice. (I like those... them easy choices)

Ok so it seems that I have it all. Well excetp for the monitor, so here it goes:

MONITOR

No choice yet.
I don't kniow what criteria are important. I am definately looking for a 19 inch TFT monitor (maybe widescreen I don't know).
I know that:
the lower the response time the better (isn't like 8ms absolutely minimum for gaming or can I go with 12ms?)
I don't know about the contrast ratio. Which one is better 500:1 or 700:1?
The same for brightness. Should I go with lower values higher values? Is there a minimum for gaming?
Are there any other important pieces of data when buying a monitor?

Final point VISTA.

I know that I will order the parts in late January so I thought Hey why not get Vista since it has a launch on 30 of January. So I went to MS UK site and I found out that there are a few different versions of Vista. Which one will I need? They don't write anything about prices. Does anyone know how much Vista will cost?


Thanks for reaching this point. Sorry it took me so long. I will really appreciate it if someone helps me with my choice.

[david eaton]

For prices in the UK, don't forget Dabs.com. Good prices, good service, and a good selection of components.

[KenJackson]

Man it's fun picking the pieces to put together a system, isn't it? I've done it several times and enjoyed it.

But I wouldn't even consider the ASUS motherboard. A few years ago I built up a new system around ASUS which would crash anytime there was much disk activity. I hated it. I thought surely it must be software or this or that. But nothing solved it until I scrapped the motherboard and got a different brand.

I've never used an Asrock, but I've heard that they are cheap ASUS boards.

As for VISTA, I would recommend Linux instead.

[rond36]

I like the MSI motherboard mostly because of the slot layout. You can install a two slot video card and not block any PCI slots and still have an empty slot under the video card for better cooling.

OCZ RAM has known incompatibilities with the Intel P965 chipset use at your own risk!

If you install PC5400 RAM then later add PC6400 All of the RAM will run at PC5400 speeds.

I would not even consider Linux on a PC with new hardware the chances of getting drivers is very slim and installing drivers in Linux is another story :mad: I suggest Win XP Pro until Vista gets the bugs worked out of it.

[KenJackson]

rond36,
I'm glad you edited away your earlier comments about my earlier post. The email I received had you saying something to the effect that the Asus crashes were probably caused by user error.

No. I swapped out the power supply and graphics board, upgraded to a new version of Linux, upgraded browsers and other software packages and experimented with BIOS settings. No change. It locked up solid with the hard disk LED lit anytime there was heavy disk activity.

Subsequently, I replaced that board with an Intel board and processor and it has NEVER crashed like that even though I'm using the same power supply, hard disk, graphics board, NIC, case, operating system and software. It may have merely been a defective board or AMD processor, but I'm avoiding Asus like a disease just in case.

As for your concern about getting drivers for Linux on new hardware, there is some justification for that. But I wouldn't hesitate unless the hardware is really odd. This was more of a problem some years ago, but it keeps getting better. Heck, Microsoft just acknowledged the legitimacy of Linux by inking a deal with Novell.

[PrntRhd]

Heck, Microsoft just acknowledged the legitimacy of Linux by inking a deal with Novell.
Going a bit offtopic,
Actually Ballmer is using the SuSe Linux deal to shake down other distros for cash, alleging patent infringement, calling all the other distros illegitimate until they make a deal with MS. Just like SCO, oh yeah they were behind the SCO suit too, lost that one.

[KenJackson]

PrntRhd,
Your analysis is probably right, but up until now Microsoft publicly mostly regarded Linux as an annoying fly, unworthy of much comment. This shift in tactics has the amusing side effect of Microsoft implicitly declaring Linux to be serious competition.

If Microsoft considers Linux to be serious competition, then user on this forum who are deciding what to install should seriously consider Linux. :)

[krelian]

Thanks for Your replies.


david eaton, thanks for suggesting dabs, it really seems a good choice. I've been looking some more but I can't find any website that would give better prices on the parts that I am looking for.


KenJackson, yep it is fun indeed to pick all those parts but sometimes I do feel nauseous when I see the breadth of choice.


rond36, thanks for confirming my opinion on the MSI motherboard, one item less from the checklist. As for the memory what do you think about this one:
Corsair Memory TWIN2X1024A - 6400 XMS2-6400 2x512MB 240DIMM CAS5
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3PD1&CategorySelectedId=11150&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11150,4294960364,42670000,4294955925 &v=2#infoarea

Regarding the Windows vs Linux issue...
Well I am not really sure whether I will be able to play games using Linux. Aren't like almost all games written exclusively for windows (or at least optimized for Windows). Besides I tried to use Linux for a while something like 2 years ago but I resigned after a week.
So the real questions are XP Pro or Vista? and retail or OEM?
If I buy XP Pro days before the release of Vista wouldn't I be forced to buy Vista soon anyway? I have seen many places offering an XP plus a free Vista upgrade coupon, but I saw this offered with full desktops.
BTW does any one know the British pricing on Vista and which version is the best for gamers?
I don't really understand the options available to me regarding the OS. From what I read it looks like I should go with the OEM OS. But I don't know what is the catch to it. OEM is a lot cheaper, does not have any packaging, and...I don't know what are the other differences.

I have made some changes of choice to the parts:

Case

This one is 58 pound with a 500W PSU. I haven't seen any Antec cases so cheap while having a powerful PSU. It is not currently in stock but it will be by the time I will order the parts. The only thing, it is called a server case. Does that mean anything for me? Are server cases louder, less user friendly (space and access to parts)?
Antec TX1050B/Mid Tower SOHO File Server case 500W Black
http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=3PK0&CategorySelectedId=11145&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11145,50882,44110000,12&InMerch=1&v=2#infoarea

This one is my second choice if you think there is something wrong with the previous one
Antec Sonata II UK Piano Black Quiet Midi Tower 76,5 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=3SPW&CategorySelectedId=11145&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11145,50882,44110000,12&InMerch=1

Graphics card

DabsValue NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT 256MB DDR3 PCI-E DVI 90 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=40B7&CategorySelectedId=11137&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11137,43990000,4294963789,379790000&v=2#

Gainward GeForce 7900GS 256MB PCIE DDR3 Dual DVI HDTV SLI 120 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=4954&CategorySelectedId=11137&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11137,43990000,4294963789,397860000&InMerch=1&v=2#infoarea

The 7900 GS looks like the dreamcard for my budget. Is Gainward OK?
I may go 7600 GT if my budget isn't as big as I am expecting. But I am worried about "Dabs value" sounds almost like Sainsbury Basics. The main specs seem to be OK but again I feel there must be a catch somewhere but I can't say where it is.

Monitor
Can anyone explain/provide a link to a guide describing features of monitors?

Thanks.

[david eaton]

But I am worried about "Dabs value" sounds almost like Sainsbury Basics.
Nothing wrong with the Dabs value range. no fancy packaging and frills, but the components are good. usually repackaged parts from a good maker.

The difference between OEM and retail software is mainly in tech support. There is none for OEM. apart from the difference in packaging etc.
No reason to buy retail really.

[saphalline]

Don't spend the extra money on DDR2-800 for an Intel system. Not unless you'll be doing some extreme OC'ing. Dual-channel DDR2-667 provides enough raw RAM bandwidth for a 1333MHz FSB - waaaay beyond what Intel has available right now (at stock speeds). DDR2-667 will be plenty for your system, even with gaming. Stick with that Corsair stuff, though. ;)

I'd encourage you to look at hard drives in the 250-320GB range. Much better value per pound and you don't have to use the entire space for Windows. In fact, it's much better to partition the first 40-80GB for Windows and leave the rest for storage. Just don't write-off larger hard drives just because you don't think you'll use the space. Game installs are getting bigger all the time! It's not uncommon for the latest games to come on DVD's with installation footprints exceeding 3GB!

Get the Antec TX1050B case. It comes with a 500W ATX 3.0 PSU. Plus it's frickin' huge! That sucker, along with a healthy dose of extra case fans, will keep any gaming rig nice and cool.

Considering your gaming needs, the 7600 GT will be more than up to the task of playing Total War in all its glory. My brother has the older 6600 GT and the TWII demo is smooth at 1024 x 768 - not to mention he has a single-core CPU. A 7600 GT with a Core 2 Duo should play it just fine at 1280 x 1024, if not higher. Then again, if you can afford the 7900 GS, that would be a much better vid card. You'd have no problems playing TWII with that!

As for the monitor, you're shooting high with a 19" LCD requirement! Those are still quite expensive for anyone on a budget. I'd suggest a much more down-to-earth 17" LCD monitor. You'll save yourself a bundle right there, perhaps enough to move up to a 7900 GS. 12ms is more or less the "boundary" between bad LCD responsiveness and being able to play games. 12ms is just under the wire - this is what I use. 8ms and faster is required for good clean movie viewing - minute color responsiveness for movies just can't compete on 12ms displays. In terms of gaming, 8ms and faster is just icing on the cake. However, 8ms is pretty much standard for new LCD monitors these days, so I'd stick with 8ms. All the other specs have an "acceptable" value - ie, you shouldn't go with anything worse. Contrast ratio threshold: 400:1. 500:1 is better, 300:1 is worse. Don't buy any LCD monitor below 400:1. Brightness threshold: 350 cd/mm^2. 400 is better, 300 is worse. Don't buy any LCD monitor below 350 cd/mm^2. Also, monitors are a highly subjective component, but research goes a long way here. Always read tons of reviews from several sources about any monitor or family of monitors you wish to purchase. Google is your friend here. ;) Finally, always make sure you visit the manufacturer's website before making any purchases. You want to be certain that any monitor you buy is at least still on their website and hasn't been relegated to the dreaded "archive" section. There's no point in buying a monitor that hasn't been in production for 3 years! You'll still get the manufacturer's warranty from the time of sale, but buying older stuff for your "new" computer system is still unwise.

[krelian]

As I've been reading through the web I came with a few new ideas. Right now i am inexperienced when it comes to hardware but in a few months this might change. What I am talking about.... overclocking. I don't want to try and OC my system as soon as i assemble it but it would be nice to have such an option for the future.

But to this i seem to need a good motherboard in the first place.

Abit AB9 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard. 85 pounds
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-106-AB

Gigabyte GA_965P_DS3 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard 104 pounds
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-061-GI

Both of these were advised to me by a friend as two relatively cheap mobo's with good OC options.

And I changed my video card choice from the GF 7900 GS 256 MB to Saphire x1950 pro 256 MB (130 pounds). Right now I am planning to buy one video card but in a few months i would like to add another x1950 pro as both support crossfire.
However what kind of mobo would I need to use Crossfire. If it is 2 cards then shouldn't it have 2 PCI Express 16 slots? or do I need some kind of a switch to fit in the two cards into a single PCIE 16 slot?

From what I've read the my original CPU choice the E 6300 (123 pounds) is a wonderful processor to overclock. But I have seen two versions of the core: the Conroe and Allendale versions. Other than the name of the core and the price (8 pounds less for allendale) all of the specs seem equal.

I left the same case as before since it was advised by saphalline
Antec TX1050B/Mid Tower SOHO File Server case 500W Black 58 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=3PK0&CategorySelectedId=11145&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11145,358750000,50882&InMerch=1
However in some of the reviews I have read the hinges were criticised. They are supposedly made of cheap plastic and break easily. Still 58 pounds for a 500 W ATX12V 2.0 Antex case... it's unbelievably cheap. Guess I will have to be extra careful when opening the case.

For OC'ing I've been advised to buy 800 Mhz RAM in the 4-4-4-xx configuration.
This Crucial 2x512MB 240-Pin DIMM PC2-6400 Unbuffered CAS4 for 118 pounds...
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=444X&CategorySelectedId=11150&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11150,4294959062,4294955840&v=2#infoarea

... seems to be the right one. But it's really pricey for me even though it is the cheapest 6400 4-4-4-xx Ram offered by dabs. Again the 4-4-4-xx was advised by my friend. The problem is that he his reason is "it's faster and better for OC" but when i asked him to expain why it is better he couldn't.

I also decided that I can afford a few pounds more for a better HD like the...
Western Digital Caviar 250GB S300 16mb 7200rpm (51 pounds)
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3WF6&CategorySelectedId=11154&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11154,40970000,47240000,42240000,12
only 7 pounds more compared to my previous choice but 90 GB more space and 16 mb of cache. The jump to 320 GB for a comparable HD means shelling out 65 pounds at that's too much. Especialy since I don't store ridiculous amounts of movies and mp3's on my HD anyway.

II hoped that choosing the monitor will be easy but after saphalline's reply my future LCD gained the title of "the toughest part to choose when buying a system"
I have found many LCD's with a 500:1 contrast ratio (or better), 8 ms responce time but I can't find absolutely ANY LCD's that would have all of these features plus brightness of more than 300 cd/mm^2 (and that would still be within my budget). This one seems to fit into all the specs except brightness (which is 300):
DabsValue 19" Widescreen TFT 1400x900 with DVI input and speakers 125
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4906&CategorySelectedId=11109&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11109,380820000,354060000,13

I just can't find a 17-19 inch monitor for less than 150 pounds which would have brightness of 350 or more. Have I been looking in the wrong places? Can anyone from the UK suggest an online shop with better prices and choice than dabs?

My current choice of parts brings me to 690 pounds (or 710 if I go with the Gigabyte mobo), including VAT excluding shipping and the OS. I will end up in the 770-800 pounds range when I add the OS bringing me slightly over my original budget, but I should be able to afford it after all. If not I'll buy a really cheap card like the GF 7600 GS (66 pounds) and upgrade to a mid range DX 10 card when they become affordable (hopefuly that means December 2007 or earlier). This will obviously eliminate the Crossfire or SLI upgrades since rather than adding another bad video card I will just go for a single good DX 10 card, probably GF 8600 (at least if nVidia follows its current naming habits).

And finaly the dreaded OS choice. To Vista or not to Vista that is the question. But seriously:
1 Will I be able to buy an OEM version of Vista or XP. So far I have seen OEM versions only bundled with entire desktops. Can I but OEM if I am buying my parts separately from two suppliers(mobo and maybe RAM from overclockers and the rest from dabs)?
2 If I buy XP Pro in mid-January won't I be forced to shell out another 80-100 pounds for Vista anyway by the end of 2007?
3 I read Saphalline's "Gaming for the new age" and it looks like Vista is the way to go for gamers. But which Vista version is the one right for me?
Home Basic, Home Premium or Ultimate?
4 If I should chose OEM version of Windows XP PRO then which version: the 32 bit Service Pack 2b version or the 64 bit SP2b version (which is 5 pounds cheaper than the 32 bit one, ??? this doesn't seem to be logical).
Both of those come with a free vista upgrade coupon
Microsoft Win XP Pro 32B OEM & vista upgrade coupon
http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=4BFW&CategorySelectedId=11168&NavigationKey=11168,402940000&InMerch=1&v=2#infoarea
But I can't find to which version I can upgrade once Vista is out. Whether there are additional costs and whether it would mean a disk format and setting up the entire system from the start.

Sorry for the long posts but I want to make sure that I won't spend my very hard earned money on an outdated desktop with no upgrade paths for the future.

[krelian]

Just to add to my previous post...
I've just bumped in into these three mobo's, all of which are advertised as having Crossfire Support and good OC abilities.

Gigabyte GA_965P_DS4 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard 123 pounds
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-062-GI

Abit AW9D Intel 975X (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 135 pounds
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-107-AB

Abit AW9D-MAX Intel 975X (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 141 pounds
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-108-AB

The jump from a standard mobo to a mobo with crossfire support seems rather expensive
(at least 40 pounds extra on the mobo cost). Is this thing worth it? I mean is it better to upgrade your system by adding a second card or buy a single better one.

I've also found a few slightly cheaper memories than the Ballistix from the previous post:

GeIL 1GB (2x512MB) PC6400C4 800MHz Ultra Low Latency DDR2 Dual Channel Kit (GX21GB6400UDC) 96
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-057-GL
This one has all the needed features, it's fairly cheap but I never heard anything about this brand.

Corsair 1GB DDR2 XMS2-6400C4 TwinX (2x512MB) 123
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-111-CS
Same specs as GeIL memory but 27 pounds more expensive and produced by Corsair

Corsair 1GB DDR2 XMS2-6400C5 TwinX (2x512MB) 103
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-112-CS
Everything the same as previous ones except for the latency here it is 5-5-5-12

Which one is a good choice for OC? What is the effect latency on OC abilities?
I've pretty much decided to go with the PC6400 since any future upgrade (another GB of RAM) will be a PC 6400 and I don't want to mix the speeds. Now it's just a question of choosing the right brand and latency.

[KenJackson]

What I am talking about.... overclocking.
Why do you want to overclock?

Manufacturers rate their processors at speeds that they expect them to run with no errors for all rated operating temperatures and other circumstances. To do that, they leave some margin. That is, they rate them lower than they can actually run. So overclockers are using up some of that margin to get better performance. But anytime you operate closer to a safety margin, there is a larger chance you are going to get burned--in this case there is a larger chance the processor will err and the PC will crash.

Back when processors ran at 100 to 200MHz, a little overclocking produced a noticeable performance improvement. But today's processors are real fast. I think it's a rare person that can truthfully say they get noticeably better performance overclocking any of today's processors. Yet the increased risk of crashing is still there.

[krelian]

Well... from what I have read OCing the E6300 is a good way to gain extra power with good stability. According to reports from Tom's Hardware the Core 2 Duo are very easy to safely OC and the increase in speed from 1,83 GHz to 2,2-2,3 has considerable effect on the speed of your system. People have been reporting values of 3 GHz and more but I would never have enough courage (or be stupid enough if you prefer) to go for something this sick.
As to tear and wear on the CPU... In 3 or 4 years the E6300 will be junk anyway with negligible resel value. So I'm thinking about how to get the most for my money. People on the Tom's Hardware forums claim that with basic cooling (like adding a simple Zalman fan and heatsink for 10-20 pounds depending on the model) the system's are completely stable. Besides isn't the E6300 technicaly identical to the E6600 except for the fact that Intel artificialy clocked down the 2,13 GHz to 1,86 GHz for marketing reasons? At least that's how I understand this.
Remember that I am not going to try and OC my system immediately after the parts will arrive. Right now I don't feel comfortable enough with PC's to jump into open water's but I woul'd want to OC my system as it will inevitably decrease in performance compared to other systems. I don't have the money right now to buy the additional cooling but it seems like buying a mobo supporting OC features is the right path.

I would be interested in seeing the pros and cons of overclocking. Should I just settle for the stock speeds on everything or try and push the system a bit more?

[mjc]

Also, think about this...under 'normal' usage ICs (and a CPU is just a big IC) lifespans are measured in decades...under heavy use (Ocing) they are still measured in decades (just one or two, instead five or six)...in other words the CPU will be long obsolete, so why not crank it for all it's worth?

[saphalline]

I don't know what I was thinking before about the LCD specs - I must have been tired. I meant to type that 300 cd/m^2 is the minimum, not 350! Sorry about that.


There are other differences between the E6300 and E6600 than just clock speed. The E6600 also has its full 4MB of unified L2 cache enabled; the E6300 only has 2MB. This has a rather significant impact on IPC performance and simply OC'ing an E6300 cannot make up for this difference easily. The clock speed of an E6300 would need be to be cranked higher, probably by as much as 100-150MHz above the stock clock of the E6600.

There is no Allendale yet. All Core 2 Duo's are currently Conroe. Allendale was just the speculated name of the core revision with 2MB of L2 cache. The real Allendale's are coming within the next few months, and will be numbered as the E4000 series, presumably with only 2MB of L2 cache by default. If you see any CPU for sale today listed as Allendale, I suggest you keep shopping. I don't trust non-existent hardware! :eek:


SLI and CrossFire demand a premium because they are high end technologies. But the rule of thumb I always use is this: if you can't afford a second vid card in 6 months or less, just go with a single vid card. The reason being that graphics generations seem to be bending towards the 6-9 month range. And in the case of the Radeon X1800, it only lasted 4 months! With such a high rate of depletion, upgrading becomes more of a concern. For instance, if you buy a Radeon X1950 with the intention of going CrossFire, what are you going to do in 9 months if you haven't bought your second vid card? Slapping in another Radeon X1950 isn't going to help you with D3D 10 games! I'm very worried about anyone wanting to go with SLI or CrossFire right now, unless you can afford to go SLI with a GeForce 8800! With Vista's D3D 10 support coming soon, investing a large amount of money into DX9c-class vid cards is a bit stupid. If only because a high end CrossFire system with dual Radeon X1950's won't be D3D 10 ready. Wanna play new games next year? Sorry, not gonna happen! I'm warning everyone right now that the limit I'm recommending for DX9c-class vid cards is $250. Any more than that in the face of almighty unified shader architectures is just throwing money away. The GeForce 8800 may not look all that powerful with today's games, but it's going to smack down the 7900's next year! Once the D3D 10 flood gates are open, we're going to see a small gap turn into a chasm! The G80 has a level of power and efficiency that 2006 games can't touch...


Ahh yes - the ever important overclocking debate. What do we gain by OC'ing? For the most part, not a whole lot.

In terms of gaming performance, you can see an improvement in benchmark scores by OC'ing, but it takes a hefty OC to make a noticeable improvement to the gamer. It really has come to the point where you simply need enough CPU power to play games - any more than that is fluff. Vid cards reign supreme now, and that's where an upgrade can really make your games fly! But otherwise, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between a Pentium D 920 and a Core 2 Duo E6400 when gaming (all other hardware being equal). Technically, the Core 2 Duo is superior in every way (heat dissipation, energy usage, IPC, performance, etc) but the PD 920 still spits out enough power to run any modern game just fine. The only reason I don't recommend it anymore is because it's old technology and a pain to keep cool. But I'd take a PD 920 with a GeForce 8800 over a Core 2 Duo with a Radeon X1600 any day! The graphics card makes your gaming experience. The CPU is just the chauffeur.

In other tasks, CPU power can definitely make a difference. When it comes to video editing or ZIP'ing a large volume of files, CPU power is where it's at! It can also make or break a multi-tasking or emulation experience. There are certainly many non-gaming uses for a computer, and for these uses, the CPU is the most important. In terms of perceptual system responsiveness for these uses, OC'ing your CPU can have a huge impact! Especially if you start with a dual-core CPU!

For me, OC'ing is about the experience and knowledge. I OC my own CPU (so far by 17.5%) just for the heck of it. I like to do it so that I know how, so that I know the limits, so that I keep up with the latest OC'ing BIOS tweaks. But I don't OC for the performance. I use my main system primarily for gaming, and I've noticed no gaming improvement whatsoever with my 17% OC. Nothing. Nada. Not that I'm surprised, mind you. I don't expect a 17% CPU OC to affect frame rate by more than 4% on a DX8/9 game, which adds up to only 1 addition fps for every 30. On a dual-core CPU with a multi-threaded game, you can double that. But even so, you're only increasing your minimum frame rate. Your max is still tethered to your vid card(s). So yeah... For me, OC'ing is just one more way for me to stay ahead of the PC technology curve - and for bragging rights! :D If I want my games to go faster, I upgrade my vid card(s). Speaking of which, it's almost time to do that...

[KenJackson]

For me, OC'ing is just one more way for me to stay ahead of the PC technology curve - and for bragging rights! :D
For fun. OK, I can see that.

But boy! I'm glad I'm not on that tread mill. A few months ago some people at work were upgrading their PCs and I was encouraged to get a newer, faster PC too. But I declined. The P4 2.26GHz 512MB Dell PC with Radeon 7000 that I got in early 2003 (almost 4 years! ago) still performs all that I throw at it and doesn't keep me waiting. (Of course, I'm running GNU/Linux, so it never gets bogged down with any malware.)

[rond36]

Case

This one is 58 pound with a 500W PSU. I haven't seen any Antec cases so cheap while having a powerful PSU. It is not currently in stock but it will be by the time I will order the parts. The only thing, it is called a server case. Does that mean anything for me? Are server cases louder, less user friendly (space and access to parts)?
Antec TX1050B/Mid Tower SOHO File Server case 500W Black

A server case is just another name for a full tower case and has plenty of room to work.

That case costs £57.96 inc vat and comes with an Antec Smart Power 500W PSU (http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=3PM9&CategorySelectedId=11259&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11259,50882&InMerch=1) that costs £57.66 inc vat so depending on how you look at it you get a case or PSU for £0.30 ($0.58)
The PSU has modular connectors but I could live with that for the price.

The case is very similar to 3 cases that I have, Antec SX1040B that's out in the garage, and (2) ThermalTake Xaser II cases that are still in use. The only difference is the front bezel. The case design is old (2000-2001) but it is still a very good case. The only reason I didn't use my Antec SX1040B case is that I needed (9) 5 1/4 drive bays and the case only has (4) My Thermaltake Armor case has (11) 5 1/4 bays


A few months ago some people at work were upgrading their PCs and I was encouraged to get a newer, faster PC too. But I declined. The P4 2.26GHz 512MB Dell PC with Radeon 7000 that I got in early 2003 (almost 4 years! ago) still performs all that I throw at it and doesn't keep me waiting. What happened to the PC with the Intel board and processor that replaced the Asus board?

[KenJackson]

What happened to the PC with the Intel board and processor that replaced the Asus board? That's my home PC. It's the one I'm using right now.

[nhnewbie]

In response to the OP, do you know anyone you trust in the U.S.? I am involved with Jeeps, and a member on a forum lives in Australia. He has a contact in the U.S. that collects parts, then ships them over for him, saving him a bundle. I would think it would work great for you as well. Start buying now, keeping your eyes open for sales, HUGE rebate offers, etc., and keep collecting parts in 1 place in the U.S. until you have everything together. Then have them shipped over. I am a cheap SOB, and these are some recent deals I just got:
-Ultra Wizard mid tower case, $40, free shipping (in U.S.), $40 rebate, making the case FREE.
-Ultra V-series 500w ps, $40, free shipping, $40 rebate, making it FREE.
(both of those are still going on at www.frys.com)
-Staples just got done with their Black Friday sale, which included a Maxtor 200 gig HD, $120-$100 rebate= $20!!!
-Ultra 1024mb PC3200 DDR400 memory, $150-$50 rebate-$50 bonus rebate = $50 from tigerdirect.

If you keep your eyes open on some U.S. sites, you can get a MUCH better PC for less money, since you seem to have the time to wait a bit for the screaming deals. Check at www.slickdeals.net for info about deals. Thats where the case and PS were listed.

Just an idea.

Jim

[krelian]

I thought for a moment about buying PC parts in the US, especialy after seeing the obscene price differences in the UK. But the problem is that I don't have any family/friends/anyone to trust in the States. So it looks like I don't have this option.

[krelian]

In my first post I stated a budget of 600-750 pounds for everything. Well now it's become 600 and not a single pound more. Well in fact 550 is the maximum realistic amount (read: I have the money on my bank account).
This means a major overhaul of an already almost finished build... damn, more time spent on looking for parts.

So the new situation looks like this. I need a fairly cheap PC with good upgrading options for the future. So here we go:

CPU

Intel Pentium D 805 Socket 775 2.66GHz 2MB Cache Retail 64 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=40G0&CategorySelectedId=11147&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11147,4294958803&v=2#infoarea

Looks like I will have to drop down the C2D at least for a year. This is the cheapest dual core Intel CPU I managed to find on UK websites.

motherboard

ASRock S775 VIA PT880 Ultra ATX Audio Lan 37 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=44S1&CategorySelectedId=11143&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11143,50568&v=2#infoarea

Cheapest C2D mobo which I could find. It takes the Pentium D as well as C2D so I have an open upgrade option. It takes DDR 2 RAM only in PC2-4300 and PC2-5300 flavours but since I dropped the idea to Overcklock it should be enough for my needs and good for my budget.
The only realy weak point seems to be the small max amount of RAM - a total of 2GB in 2 slots.

memory
Corsair Memory VS1GSDS533D2 200SODIMM 1GB PC2-4200 CAS4 69 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3PCQ&CategorySelectedId=11150&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11150,4294959063,45660000&v=2#infoarea

Corsair Memory 1GB 240DIMM PC5300 UNBUFFERED CL5 71 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4B15&CategorySelectedId=11150&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11150,4294959063,45750000&v=2#infoarea

The second one is 667 Mhz with CL 5, first one is 533 Mhz with CL 4.

Yes, I know it is only a single stick and it won't run Dual Channel. But I can't afford buying two 1GB sticks right now and buying 2 times 512 MB means that I would have to throw out both 512 sticks when I upgrade to 2 GB RAM (remember only 2 RAM slots on the mobo). So it looks like I will have to wait for 2 or 3 months before upgrading to a 2 GB Dual Channel configuration.

GPU

On the new tighter budget I have shortlisted three possible cards: GF 7300 GT, ATI X1600Pro, GF 7600 GS.

256MB Palit 7300GT PCI-E(x16) Sonic Mem 1000MHz GPU 500MHz 8Pipes D-Sub/Dual Link DVI/S-Video Fan 54 pounds
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=498838

Sapphire Technology Radeon X1600 PRO 256MB DDR2 TVO PCIE Retail 56 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3XP5&CategorySelectedId=11137&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11137,43990000,356310000

256MB Palit 7600GS Sonic PCI-E(x16) Mem 1000MHz GPU 450MHz 12Pipes D-Sub/Dual Link DVI/S-Video Fan 65 pounds
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=498837

If what I read is correct then the 7600 GS is stronger from the other two cards. However it also has a 65 pounds price tag. The other two go for 10 pounds less.
In the benchmarks on Tom's Hardware website the X1600 Pro is generaly better than the 7300 GT. But the benchmarks were made with a 350/666 GT version. The Palit GF 7300 GT is extremely overcklocked with GDDR 3 memory and 500 Mhz GPU clock. So the question is whether the Palit 7300 GT is equal/better/worse than the Saphire X1600Pro.

Case and PSU

I really thought that with the Antec server case I had the case/PSU choice behind me, the case was supposed to be delivered to dabs in a week or two, but now it says that the case is discontinued. Feels like a kick in the sack.
Well... c'est la vie.
I am looking to buy all the heaviest parts (case, monitor, PSU) from a single vendor because of delivery costs so I need to think of this when choosing case and monitor.

Antec NSK6500 uATX/ATX Super Mid Tower, has Hi-Efficiency 430W ATX12v v2.0 PSU 74 pounds
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=509823

Ok so this case is smaller, more expensive and with a smaller PSU than the previous one but I can't find anything better right now.

And here is a separate case and PSU from dabs just in case (sic!) I want to buy a monitor from them.
Antec SLK3000B Black Super Mid Tower 33 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3NW2&CategorySelectedId=11145&NavigationKey=11145,11

Akasa ATX 2.2 Ultra quiet Active PFC 400watts PSU & fan 46 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=49R7&CategorySelectedId=11259&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11259,41790000

Total cost is 79 pounds... gulp. Too much...

HD

160 Gb Western Digital WD1600JS Caviar SE, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 8MB Cache, 8.9 ms 37 pounds
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=253981

After reconsidering my budget I don't think that I will need more than 160 GB in foreseeable future. (1 year). The drive is 37 pounds, cheap and enough space for my needs and if something changes I can add a second HD when (and if) I will be able to afford it.

optical drive
DabsValue 16x DVD±RW DL IDE Black Bare 18 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4B94&CategorySelectedId=11155&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11155,50010

I guess there is not too much to write about here...

monitor

17" Daewoo HL720AD Black/TitaniumTFT, DVI/VGA, 1280x1024, 8 ms, 500:1, 300 cd/m2, Speakers 110 pounds
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=465729

DabsValue 17" TFT 1280x1024 resolution 8ms Multimedia LCD Monitor with 3 Year Warranty 99 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4412&CategorySelectedId=11109&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11109,50010

Acer 17" AL1706 8ms LCD TFT 105 pounds
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4B99&CategorySelectedId=11109&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11109,4294959846,50246,13&v=2#infoarea


Right now I am leaning towards the Daewoo but mostly because I am also thinking about the NSK 6500 case (both from scan).

The dabs monitor seems to have all the right specs, while the Acer is a better brand but 270 brightness.


OS
Still not sure about it. If I buy XP in mid January won't it mean that I will have to buy Vista a year later. Maybe I will just buy Vista on the day of its release and accept the role of Microsoft's guinea pig.

In total we are at 453 pounds with the cheapest parts and at 478 with the more expensive ones. OS is excluded. With the OS and delivery we get very near to the 550 pound border.

Any comments, faults in the logic behind my choices, compatibility problems etc. ?

I am really sorry for the long posts and a major overhaul in my plans but it often ends like this when you are not honest with yourself about your wallet.

Thanks in advance for any advice.