Read this before considering a switch to Vista!

[mashny]

Has anyone seen this article or know anything about Vista's built in "Protection": "A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection." It's upsetting and infuriating, especially considering how much money people are spending to upgrade their multimedia equipment. The article's author writes, "The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history."

Here's the link:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

[PrntRhd]

That article is pretty long itself.
;)
We have many users here who already know proprietary DRM=Crap. Even Bill Gates knows the legal downloads with DRM are inferior in quality to CD-ROM.

[mjc]

A little more about this...with links

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36570

[jlreich]

I know this thread is getting a little old, but I just got around to reading some of the article.

I have only read less than 1/4 of the article, but I am sickened. :(

I hope hardware manufacturers and software companies fight MS. I know that's unlikely, but I would like to think just maybe it will be enough to piss them off to the point of them telling MS to stick it where the sun don't shine. :mad:

[mjc]

They didn't fight MS very hard over the restore disk/install disk issue (or restore partition, they fought even less)...so why do you expect any fighting over this?

[Rick]

I didn't waste my time ready any of it.
After Just One install of Vista on a test laptop.
I have already removed and deleted EVERYTHING having to do with Vista

It just isn't worth the hassle or the Price

[jlreich]

I'm with you Rick. Unfortunately if you service/build PC's you can't avoid it forever. Sooner or later a customer is going to come in with a Vista machine or request one built with vista installed.

Hmm, now that I think about it, with the way things are going with Vista, after warranties run out there will be many customers coming in with Vista installed PC's. :D

[Rick]

I just finished one.
Finished Removing Vista that is.

YUP.. Vista took over control of the boot order
Even with the HDD removed from the boot order in the Bios.
The Girls laptop would NOT boot from the CD-ROM with the original winXP O/S disk in it

Yes vista did make a copy of the boot record when her boy friend installed it.
BUT he didn't allow for removal
SO I got to hack it out and get past it to boot from CD

Sure glad he didn't change the partition or format

XP is up and running on her laptop now
She did say something about having it on a desktop also.
I hope she paid attention .. She is going to have the same hassles with that as the laptop

I Agree..
I will have to install and use it at some point.
But Not on anything but my test bed system..

[deddard]

I just installed Vista with XP, and sure enough, vista took over the boot process (I expected that)
However, when I ghosted the disk, it wouldn't load (NTLDR problem) so I repaired the vista partition, and that worked fine.
XP however, that's a different story - there didn't seem any way to get into safe mode even, and it wouldn't boot at all.
Partition magic shows that there aren't two partitions, there's only one, with oddball naming system, and couldn't do a thing with them, so it's time to ditch vista from this disk and load it into another to see how that works.

I actually wanted an xp/vista/kubunto disk, but I doubt that's going to happen. - More fun with Vista.
I don't particularly want to use Vista (how the hell can a 3000+ Athlon XP run Minesweeper slowly!?) but I know that I need to get to grips with it for when the inevitable techie problems start coming in.

Vista looks so different to XP, and costs so much that I really don't see the reason for people not to switch to Linux - it's something MS should have thought of, but I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this one.

[Rick]

Vista looks so different to XP, and costs so much that I really don't see the reason for people not to switch to Linux - it's something MS should have thought of, but I think they've shot themselves in the foot with this one.

Most people won't buy it.

They will get it OEM ( Free ? ) pre-installed on new systems or as free upgrades.

Don't look for Linux to bump M$ off the retail desktop any time in the near future.

People who buy retail also buy retail software ,
None of it runs on Linux

[jlreich]

But Not on anything but my test bed system..
Exactly, nothing but to test it and get used to dealing with it.

I actually have it on my main system, my only system that can really run it good, but I hide most of my other partitions from it.

Vista will take over the system if it can. There are two ways to stop it from taking over. Bother require a good boot manager.

The best solution is to remove all other hard drives from the system and install vista to its own drive all alone. You can then put the other drives back in however you like since vista doesn't seem to mind if the partition or the physical location of the disk changes. You can even image the vista partition if you like and restore it anywhere you want.

Then without booting vista you need to run your boot manager and hide any partitions from it that you don't want it messing with. And set you boot manager to boot vista.

The other solution is to hide all partitions before hand that you don't want vista messing with. If you only have one hard drive you will have to do it that way.

Personally I prefer to keep as much away from vista as possible when installing so I unhook my other two drives. But still I installed vista the other day with my second install of XP on the same disk. I hid the other partitions and vista never touched XP or the the small FAT32 partition my BiNG boot files reside on (first partition on the disk).

If you want to multi boot it's best to use a third party boot manager in order to keep all OS's separate from each other. Each having its own boot files, neither dependent on the other for boot loaders. This also makes removing any of the OS's as easy as deleting or formating the partition, without the risk of losing the ability to boot any other OS you may have installed.

[Galaxian]

i'm rather skeptical to put much faith in what someone named peter from newzealand has to say about an os not out yet muchless anything else, i suppose anyone with technical understanding in certain things can rattle cages without being all truth and how media can spread news without facts or evidence..but the only media coverage comes from inquier? ya thats all scientific n legit huh, .for instance i could go on and on about how rootkits were around 6 years before the 2005 public knowledge of it...fruitless and i have no evidence

so instead lets talk about the good things about vista, it has much to offer both new and enthusiasts alike, those who cant then i question why arnt you useing linux or mac if windows isnt the best for you?

[jlreich]

so instead lets talk about the good things about vista, it has much to offer both new and enthusiasts alike
I don't see that it has much to offer. Most of the what's new in vista is cosmetic or convenience. There are some real improvements, but they are far outweighed by the bad that comes with it IMO.

those who cant then i question why arnt you useing linux or mac if windows isnt the best for you?
This isn't about windows, it's about vista. And I do use Linux. I use XP as well. They both have their uses right now. Vista I have no use for other than being able to service it when customers come in with it.

I have a feeling vista will prove very profitable for computer technicians. :D I think it will be like Dell. I don't like Dell one bit, except in the fact that I have made more money repairing Dell's than any other OEM. :D

[sburtchin]

Then without booting vista you need to run your boot manager and hide any partitions from it that you don't want it messing with. And set you boot manager to boot vista.

The other solution is to hide all partitions before hand that you don't want vista messing with. If you only have one hard drive you will have to do it that way.Is it sufficient to just change the filesystem type, or do you need to zero out the whole slot in the partition table? In practice my Windows 2000 can access all FAT/NT partitions regardless of what filesystem type I assign. I would guess the installer can also.

..but the only media coverage comes from inquier? ya thats all scientific n legit huh, . . . lets talk about the good things about vista, it has much to offer both new and enthusiasts alike, those who cant then i question why arnt you useing linux or mac if windows isnt the best for you?Yea, definitely read this with a grain of salt, but it's not like they have'nt done these kinds of things before - MANY times!

There are no good things about Vista because it's Microsoft. There are surely some nice features, but at what price? Not just in dollars, but in everyone's long-term quality of life. They are what they are because they are the best at manipulating the consumer. Vista will almost certainly be the best operating system for me, and for almost everyone else too. The "best for me" argument just does'nt work to protect consumers. That's why we have the Anti-Trust laws, which Microsoft has proved time and again can be thwarted by sufficient wealth:mad:.

[jlreich]

Is it sufficient to just change the filesystem type, or do you need to zero out the whole slot in the partition table? In practice my Windows 2000 can access all FAT/NT partitions regardless of what filesystem type I assign. I would guess the installer can also.
No need to change the files system. Just hide the partition/s with a boot manager. The installer will see the partitions but will not touch them as far as installing boot files and the like, nor did they show in computer after vista was installed. This is at least what I have experienced. I am going to do a fresh install in the next couple of days, or when I can get to it, and I will be doing the same as I described above.

[Galaxian]

I don't see that it has much to offer. Most of the what's new in vista is cosmetic or convenience. There are some real improvements, but they are far outweighed by the bad that comes with it IMO.


This isn't about windows, it's about vista. And I do use Linux. I use XP as well. They both have their uses right now. Vista I have no use for other than being able to service it when customers come in with it.

I have a feeling vista will prove very profitable for computer technicians. :D I think it will be like Dell. I don't like Dell one bit, except in the fact that I have made more money repairing Dell's than any other OEM. :D

i have just the opposite, i have replaced more HP hardware than even compaqs which is owned by HP, lol
as far as OS fixing, the os seems to be irrelevant in my experience, its bad user habits, sometimes a mixture of device drivers/poorly coded apps and cheap hardware compatabilities, but ive seen linux and mac problems as well, again poor user habits.

apple has the luxery of propriatary hardware, linux has the luxery of not having so many developers at once competeing for same product to make quick cash so you have to be alot more careful when choosing a good application with windows...same for hardware, cheap hardware often means few driver updates or fixes.

plus i'll mention that since windows is used by sooo many computer illiterates, theres alot more user related problems, its not hard to screw up any OS if you dont know exactly what your doing, only enthusiasts care to learn much beyond mp3 burning or whatever

i'm not a windows fanboy persay, linux and mac is awesome despite poor game support, but they would both suffer the wrath if either were to become the #1 most widely used OS.

but in response to your last comment, vista has really alot over XP, i'm not talking security or looks, but in how devices will interact and how people will interact with it, it will be harder for the common user to "screw it up" thas what the os world is all about, its just a tool to do tasks, so what are you expecting of it over any other os?

[azzey]

This is just my opinion, but...

I don't mind bells and whistles in a OS, but what really grinds my gears is when my computer is telling me what I can or cannot do. I don't like having to search through thousands of menus to do the same thing that a few clicks or keystrokes would do in XP. That's how I feel. I don't feel in control with Vista.

I don't know, but XP just always had a good feel. The moment I tried Vista a felt like Microsoft had taken a grip on my computer and was telling me how to use it! I know that someday I'll eventually have to face this problem as I'll have to fix a computer or use one with Vista, but until then, I'm happy with XP.

In view of all the potential problems with Vista, I think that now would be a good time for Apple to change their direction a little bit. If they could license OSX for the PC platform, I think they might be able to gain back a little market share. Lots of people look to OEM manufacturers for computers because they are cheap (under $500 sometimes). If you bought a new Dell computer and suddenly had a choice of OSX or Vista, I think many more people would consider OSX as a possibility for an OS. Microsoft has been driving the bandwagon for a little too long.

[sburtchin]

No need to change the files system. Just hide the partition/s with a boot manager.Not knowing what boot manager you are using, or being much experienced with most boot managers in general, I guess I should ask more specific. I use GRUB and it would hide a FAT32 partition by changing the filesystem ID from "0B" to "1B" making it invisible to Win9x, but having no effect on Win2k. I can zero the whole entry in the partition table, then Win2k can't see it either. I think it was either XOSL or Rannish where I read that it builds a list of partitions to present to each operating system - essentially doing the same thing as me manually writing in zeroes. So depending on how aggressive Vista is, the amount of damage it does may vary drastically from one bootmanager to another. How does your bootmanager hide partitions?

vista has really alot over XP, i'm not talking security or looks, but in how devices will interact and how people will interact with it, it will be harder for the common user to "screw it up" thas what the os world is all about, its just a tool to do tasks, so what are you expecting of it over any other os?I would have to agree with this. I have no expectations of Vista other than it have better security and more features. My gripe with Microsoft is that with each new os release I have felt more and more squeazed into doing everything the way they want me to, which has nothing at all to do with avoiding damage and everything to do with manipulating consumers. I have'nt used Vista yet, but others here are making the same comments about it - no surprise!

My other gripe with them is that they have monopolized the computer industry by mostly dirty business practices. Vista will eventually be the best operating system for me even if some other product is better by then, just because so many others have it. And I will have to pay the price. I just wish I had a choice.

[jlreich]

How does your bootmanager hide partitions?
I use BootIt NG. Honestly I don't know the method it uses to hide the partitions. Never thought about it really. I would like to know. :) Perhaps it does change the files system ID since hidden partitions show up as "unknown partition" in device manager. To what ID type I don't know. Hmm, I should take a look in the manual to see if there is any info in there about it.

I don't know about the other boot managers, but BiNG was updated a few days after Vista Beta2 was released to specifically support vista. So your experience may be different with other boot managers.

[Galaxian]

My other gripe with them is that they have monopolized the computer industry by mostly dirty business practices. Vista will eventually be the best operating system for me even if some other product is better by then, just because so many others have it. And I will have to pay the price. I just wish I had a choice.

its best for me as a gamer, thats where all the good games so i just think happy thoughts :)

actually anything in vista can be changed, its just not always easy...soon nuhi will release nlite for vista, enabling you to change or remove any aspect of the os, tweak it or remove drivers, even remove IE like you can now with it in XP.

heres another happier thought of it i came across:
think about how much "horsepower" is wasted using xp or even linux. my core2duo/2gig/8800gt do nothing but sit there as i'm typing this, my cpu is idleing, video card is notta, ram...268mb's out of 2gigs!!
some may see vista as a resource hog, i see it as something thats finally using a bit more of my hardware than previously and when i run a very intensive game or task, it improved memory management will restructure things to make full use of everything on the target at hand.

if you copy a dvd or play F.E.A.R, you expect max hardware performance from all areas...should be no different when just doing simple things in your OS so bring on the fancy icons, animated backgrounds and wicked window transistions and movements...i can find things i hate about linux and mac too so i say F(*$# it and bring it on ms