Radeon 7500 vs GeForce4 MX440

[jaydee1445]

What Video card is best for around $100. I'm looking @ either ATI's Radeon 7500 64mb DDR W/DVI and TV or E-vida's 4x AGP64mb DDR GeForce 4MX440.

After days of serching www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com) for componets I found a company offering an assembled PC for about the same price as a ubuildit. Check them out @ www.unitedmicro.com (http://www.unitedmicro.com) This is what I want. What do you think?????

Cases Mid-Tower 350 Watt Front USB (Black) ATX
Motherboards ASUS A7V333 RAID VIA KT333 PC2700 DDR W/SOUND ATX
CPU AMD Athlon XP 2100+ 1.73 GHz 266FSB
Cooling Fans Thermaltake Dragon ORB A1137 Heat Sink & Cooling for AMD Atlon XP Duron
Memory PC2700 DDR333 512MB
Hard Drives 2 Maxtor 40GB D740x 7200 RPM ATA 133 RAID 0
Video Cards ATi RADEON 7500 64MB DDR with DVI & TV OEM (or geforce 4MX440?)
Modems USR 56K V.90 FAX MODEM PCI 3094
CD/DVD ROMs MITSUMI 48X CD-ROM IDE INT BLACK
CDRW/DVD-RW LITEON CDRW 32X12X40 IDE INT BLACK
Floppy Drives 1,44 3.5 FLOPPY INT BLACK
Zip Drives NEC 250MB ZIP DRIVE INT
Speakers Creative Labs Inspire 2.1 2400 3 Piece Speakers
Networking PHOEBE 100/ 10 BASE T PCI
Keyboards Chicony DESKTOP Keyboard Black PS/2
Mice Mice Mitsumi Optical PS/2 Black
Operating System Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional + Get 3Year Parts Warranty / 5 year Labor
Total Price $1392.60


[This message has been edited by jaydee1445 (edited 04-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by jaydee1445 (edited 04-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by jaydee1445 (edited 04-16-2002).]

[hiredgoonz]

This review has a good comparison of a bunch of cards, check out the benchmarks and decide which card would better suit your needs...
http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q2/020409/index.html

------------------
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[saphalline]

The Radeon 7500 is better because it has pure speed on its side. The Radeon is clocked at 290MHz core and 460MHz DDR RAM, while the GF4 MX440 clocks in at 270MHz core and 400MHz DDR RAM. The core clock speeds aren't that different, but most newer games take their toll on a graphics card's memory bandwidth. I like 460MHz RAM better than 400MHz, don't you?

I checked out the link above, and Tom has some interesting benchmarks. It turns out that the faster GF4 MX460 can't even keep up with the Radeon 7500 (in general)! I'll have to keep that one in mind...

Go with the Radeon 7500 if the prices are the same.

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Windows 95: A 32-bit extension of a 16-bit overlay for an 8-bit OS that was originally designed for a 4-bit processor by a 2-bit company that can't produce 1 bit of good software!

[jaydee1445]

The Radeon is cheaper @ $93 vs $103 for the E-vida.

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GUN CONTROL: The theroy that a woman found dead in an alley strangled with her pantyhose is somehow morally superior to the woman explaining to the police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

[iisbob]

unfortunately it isn't as simple as just " ati is faster than geforce ". It also has to do with the drivers, and in this case ati lags woefully behind Nvidia for proficient driver support.

Video card reviewing is very subjective; no two systems ( even those built identical ) will perform the same with the same drivers installed-you have to find the best drivers for your system. i garuantee that idf they used a different setup they would get totally different test results!

Personally i like Nvidia for gaming; they are constantly updating/improving their cards instruction sets-so odd's are you'll get better performance from the geforce card in the future than you would with ATI's card { until they get off their butts and get their driver support down }.





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iisbob

Computer-Show me the Enterprise; no bloody A, no bloody B, and no bloody C-just the original...Mr Scott { from a STNG episode }

[Jude3085]

Just to tell you that the GeForce 4MX440 is the same as the geforce 2 card. If u want a good video card go for the ti's.

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John

[jsgolfman]

I have to agree. The MX series is the budget line of cards from nVidia. It is, I believe the same core as the Geforce 2. Don't get me wrong, for a cheap card it is fine. You just don't get the full compliment of options. also, have you checked out the Volcano 7? Besides being a good cooler it looks fantastic.

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Power is Knowledge

[Jude3085]

also i suggest not to get the geforce 4 mx440 because later on in the future it will not support direct 8.

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John

[Bruce]

I have the Radeon 64k ddr. I am running it on the 7500 drivers, and
have had not problem at all with drivers. Where do these people that
use nvidia get the info that driver support is poor and ati.. I disagree
wholeheartedly.. Radeon is very good.

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Bruce

[iisbob]

...Where do these people that
use nvidia get the info that driver support is poor?...

personal experiance.

I( and others ) don't just pull imaginary tales of woe from the air, we actually run/experiance these problems before commenting on them.

Two points here; Yes, the new G4 MX series is actually based on the older NV17 Geforce2 chipset, and ATI's newest drivers do support { finally ] some very improved frame rates and less of a problem in games that require OpenGl.

I'm quite happy with the Raedon 8500 i puit in my wife's system, of course she does mostly video/picture editing and the Raedon cards are perfect for that; she let me install a game ( EF ) to try it out-ran almost smooth except for some choppiness at with full 4AA, unlike the G3 Ti i normally use that run's full 4AA with no problems. Tis is using the most current ATI drivers for this board.

The Raedon's are excellant video/graphic editing cards, but next to Nvidias' Geforce series they still have a lot of ground to cover.



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iisbob

Computer-Show me the Enterprise; no bloody A, no bloody B, and no bloody C-just the original...Mr Scott { from a STNG episode }

[kenja]

"also i suggest not to get the geforce 4 mx440 because later on in the future it will not support direct 8."

I understand this is a reference to Microsoft's DirectX, but I don't comprehend the statement.

[hiredgoonz]

I've never had any driver problems with ATI cards and I've used many of their desktop and notebook graphics adapters.

In fact, I've experienced many problems with nVidia cards and VIA chipsets. Now, the blame for this is shared by nVidia and VIA, but still partly nVidia...

ATI has, as I've said before, stepped up their driver support quite a bit, I know at least 5 versions of drivers for the 7500/8500 have been released since January.

However, when it comes purely to gaming, the nvidia cards are ahead of ATI. Even this, though, is kind of an "on paper" performance lead. The 8500 provides just as acceptable a gaming experience at ridiculous framerates as nvidia with all the bells and whistles turned on.

140 fps from a ti4600 is only better than 120 fps from an 8500 when you're looking at benchmarks. You see the same thing on the screen.

And, truthfully, since I do minimal gaming and use Athlon systems with VIA chipsets, I would choose ATI over nvidia and recommend anyone in the same boat to buy ati...

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

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[iisbob]

Eh, you say Potatoe, i say Potahtoe. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif




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iisbob

Computer-Show me the Enterprise; no bloody A, no bloody B, and no bloody C-just the original...Mr Scott { from a STNG episode }

[saphalline]

Originally posted by kenja:
"also i suggest not to get the geforce 4 mx440 because later on in the future it will not support direct 8."

I understand this is a reference to Microsoft's DirectX, but I don't comprehend the statement.

Micro$oft's DX 8.0/8.1 is the latest version of DX and supports pixel and vertex shaders. These are the new fancy-pantsy graphical effects that started with the GF3 and Radeon 8500. Basically they allow game makers to customize how things look in a game instead of using the built-in (and limited) ones on the graphics hardware.

The reason that most gamers consider this a big deal is because even the GeForce2 and Radeon 7500 series (aka "DirectX 7 cards") still use the same built-in graphical effects that were first put on 3D cards back in the original Voodoo pass-thru days (they just do them faster). DirectX 8 and DX 8 cards represent the first step in several years to modernize the basic effects common to all graphics cards. On paper, this looks good; in screenshots, it looks waaaay better!

All one has to do is a search for "Unreal Tournament 2003" on Google and look for some reviews w/screenshots to understand what I'm talking about. Or any other upcoming DX 8 game, such as Doom III.

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Windows 95: A 32-bit extension of a 16-bit overlay for an 8-bit OS that was originally designed for a 4-bit processor by a 2-bit company that can't produce 1 bit of good software!

[kenja]

Thanks for the clarification, saphalline. My reflexes are too slow for me to be much of a gamer; if I get enough frames per second to play solitaire, I'm happy. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[randyrhoads1981]

Yeah here as well ..leaves the games for the Playstations, they cost enough already ..rather than two grand for a computer to play a 50 dollar game.

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**How TO End Task A FREZZE**
ALT-CTRL-POWER BUTTON

[iisbob]

VS $500 for a console using a $20 game?!!


NOT!

And if you notice, consoles have come full circle back to PC's. The current Xbox & Playstation are nothing more than scaled down version's of desktops. And at an Average price of $300 per unit-i can garauntee i can upgrade/build a PC that'll do more than just play games/music CD's!

Regardless of which card you choose ( though i stil believe ATI's Raedons to currently be vastly inferior to Nvidia's for gaming ) , either will give you sufficient power to play most any game out there-as well as exceptionally 2d graphics jobs.

People stil seem to forget that the whole reason for the tech boom in home PC's wasn't so you could do your shopping list or write granny a letter-it was because gamers want(ed) faster/better gaming experiances. And that's still the push in the industry-just look at the current crop of video cards, just the Geforce3's of today are as poweful as a comparable PII from just a few years ago!

You don't benchmark a new system with word; you use a well known hi-intensity game. Notably Quake III-which in my opinion has seen it's day, even as fun as it still is.


Now i'm in my mid 40's and i still enjoy gaming-greatest stress release from administring a few 100 users( and several servers ) i've yet encountered.

No word program can ever compete against that. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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iisbob

Computer-Show me the Enterprise; no bloody A, no bloody B, and no bloody C-just the original...Mr Scott { from a STNG episode }

[hiredgoonz]

As far as consoles vs PCs for gaming, there are some people that want to be able to play the titles unique to consoles. Plus, when I want to play a game, I want to play the game, not adjust my screen resolution, update my video drivers, install the game, tweak my settings, etc...

Consoles offer many advantages over PCs when you look at gaming. A 3-4 yr old console will still play all the games. A 3-4 yr old PC is probably on its way out the door, at least from a gaming perspective.

Additionally, not everyone uses their PC for 3d gaming. That was pretty much the point of this post: to provide advice on the video card this guy would be best served by. I don't think anybody disagreed with the fact that nVidia's top-of-the-line cards are better fo gaming than ATI's. Even at this, most of the difference is not apparent to the user.

Sort of like using Word on a 1ghz P3 vs using it on a 3ghz P4 http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

If you use your PC for cutting-edge 3d gaming and are willing to pay the price premium for a ti4600 or 4200, then that's your card. However, it doesn't make much sense for a non-gamer to pay $100 more for a card that will never provide them any benefit over the cheaper card...

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[jaydee1445]

Hiredgoonz got my point.Which card would you by with a budget of $100 . If you look at my first post the video card is the only thing I scrimped on as I'm trying to stay under 1400 bucks. The video card will be up graded later as funds allow.

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GUN CONTROL: The theroy that a woman found dead in an alley strangled with her pantyhose is somehow morally superior to the woman explaining to the police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

[This message has been edited by jaydee1445 (edited 04-29-2002).]

[hiredgoonz]

Cool, if you do go with the 7500 don't worry, it's not a bad card at all...that's going to be an awesome system, good luck with it...

Love your sig, by the way http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[iisbob]

I never missed your point jaydee1445
, i just reiterated that consoles are junior PC's that have come full circle back to their starting point; a PC. And there were several issues brought up by other posters on the topic of the two companies/card types-and problems that have been experianced on both platforms by different users.

If all you do is word processing, then you'd be just fine with a standard 386 running word 1.0.

Plus, when I want to play a game, I want to play the game, not adjust my screen resolution, update my video drivers, install the game, tweak my settings, etc...

As far as i know of-no action on a PC is available until you "...adjust my screen resolution, update my video drivers, install the game { any program falls here }, tweak my settings, etc... " so the arguement of consoles vs PC for gaming is specious.

Additionally, not everyone uses their PC for 3d gaming. That was pretty much the point of this post: to provide advice on the video card this guy would be best served by

I never stated, nor was it ever implied that every one is a gamer; if you re-read my previous post you'll see that i just stated that the progress of PC's ( and gaming consoles by the way ) are because of gaming. If all anyone ever did was use a text program, there would have been no need to leave DOS.


He just asked for an opinion on the best card for around $100. In this case, considering the two options he gave-i'd even have to recommend the Raedon, as the Geforce 4 MX series of cards are serious crippleware IMO and Nvidia should be slapped for even introducing such a crappy product.


Bottom line is this, many people start building an awesome system-then at the last minute they skimp on an essential piece of hardware ( and no matter what vid card you choose-video is an essential part of a PC ) and then they complain that their new toy doesn't perform like they thought it should. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif { a good example of this is building an entirely new system and still using your 3 year old 15" monitor that won't support the refresh rate you want }

Everyone has a budget they have to go by { even me -hear that honey?! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif }, choosing wisely how to spend it is the trick.

If anyone's really into debating the pros/cons of Nvidia vs ATI-head on over to the Guru3d (http://guru3d.com) and look in his forums; there's a plethitude of arguements to support both sides! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

PS -by the way, i also like your " quote "-it goes along with one of my favorites; Keep Honking, I'm still reloading. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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iisbob

Computer-Show me the Enterprise; no bloody A, no bloody B, and no bloody C-just the original...Mr Scott { from a STNG episode }

[rond36]

This doesn't have any thing to do with video cards. May I suggest the Full-Tower FS-710BB 420 Watt ATX ( Black ) case. It may cost more but it is a very nice case, same case as the Antec SX1040B with a better power supply unit. I feel the 420W will better feed your 4 IDE and ATAPI devices along with the XP2100+

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How to Use the Fdisk Tool and the Format Tool to Partition or Repartition a Hard Disk (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q255867)
How to multi-boot Windows XP (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/howto/gettingstarted/multiboot.asp)
Microsoft Expert Zone Multi-booting made easy (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/columns/russel/september10.asp)
MSKB How to multi-boot Windows XP (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q306559)

[hiredgoonz]

There's no comparison between the ease of gaming on a console and a PC.

Yes, you have to install any program to use it, however, I don't have to tweak my display settings or update my video drivers to listen to mp3s, browse the web, write email, do word processing, etc.

I also don't have to keep the friggin software cds in the drive to use most programs, or defeat that particular feature if I don't want to keep the cd on hand.

I'm just not a patient person, when I want to play crazy taxi, I just pop it in and go http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[jaydee1445]

rond36,
Your probally right about the power supply! Been thinkin I need at least 400watt. I'll check out the FS-710BB

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GUN CONTROL: The theroy that a woman found dead in an alley strangled with her pantyhose is somehow morally superior to the woman explaining to the police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

[iisbob]

In console gaming; CD has to be inserted-in PC gaming CD does not have to be inserted, once you crack {re-direct} the 'exe's key to a hard drive storage location for it's files; or better yet use virtual CD's.

Note how much less time that takes than to insert CD, turn on tele, jump thru endless console menus to play!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I simply click icon and BAM! i'm fragging! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif


As for your power supply, jay, i recently bought an Antec 400 w whisper/intelli PSU. It not only provides consistant power, but it also conditions it to keep your system from suffering from brown outs { shortages } which can be worse than spikes. it also uses a variable fan speed , the greater the draw upon it-and the higher your resulting system temps, it speeds up the large bladed fan to increase airflow. It also runs much quieter than any PSU i've ever used, average speed is around 4700rpm's.

it runs roughly around $100 US, and can be found at most CompUSA's.







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iisbob

Computer-Show me the Enterprise; no bloody A, no bloody B, and no bloody C-just the original...Mr Scott { from a STNG episode }

[hiredgoonz]

Nah, my way is faster http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

I guess I just never found a PC game that really appealed to me...that may change when GTA3 comes out in May...

I've tried Grim Fandango, Quake, Army Men, Civilization 2, etc. just never got hooked on any. But have I mentioned Crazy Taxi? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

That game is AWESOME http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)