Hub works. Router doesn't

[nimnorf2]

I've got a dsl modem that is plugged into an old 4 terminal hub. I get internet activity on all 4 computers in my home that are plugged in just fine.
I had an old Belkin router before. It worked fine for a few years then failed. That's why I used the hub.
When I got a new router, of the same model number from Belkin (they just sent it to me for free, no RMA...go figure) the thing won't work. How is it that I can get any of the computers in my home to work through the hub, but get no joy with the router?

[nimnorf2]

I'm guessing that my first post was too confusing or maybe there really isn't any obvious answer to it. Maybe I should just stick with the old hub and take the inherent risk of the non-firewall associated with it.
Still, how is it that I get internet connectivity with a crummy $5.00 hub, but don't with the router?

[deddard]

Hi
It's a bit confusing, as what you appear to suggest is happening should not happen....

The DSL modem should connect on one side to the Internet. The other side of it needs to connect to a computer of some sort via a network card.
This computer could either be
A PC or
A Router

It needs the Network card to get an IP address - There should be no way that 4 different machines should be able to connect to the Internet at once unless a router is involved.
The first PC to be switched on would get an IP address, but the others wouldn't - the only way they could connect to the Internet is by sharing the first computers connection (in other words communicate through it)

With regards to the router, you should check the manual to see if there are any differences (the OS may have changed), connect it to the cable modem, and reboot both of them - if the router isn't communicating with the Internet, the chances are it hasn't been given an address. Booting both devices should reset everything to get it's address.

[nimnorf2]

Deddard,
thanks for the reply. Yes, indeed, what I say is happening is quite odd. If I plug the modem into any of the four different computers (directly to their respective NIC) that I have in this little network at home, each and every one of them will work. If I plug all four computers into a small cheap 4 port hub, they all work (with the inherent loss of speed/bandwidth associated with hub sharing), but if I plug any or all of the computers into a 4 port router there is no internet connectivity. I'm running windows 98SE on two of the units and Windows XP Pro on the other two.
I've spoken to Belkin (router manufacturer) tech support multiple times. They have now sent me two new units in the mail. I guess they concluded it must be hardware related. I've spoken to my ISP (Zoomtown/ADSL) multiple times and even got them to give me a new modem.
There's got to be something else going on here. How odd? I have of course rebooted, reset modems, and router multiple times. I wonder if there is some way to reset Windows or something. ie: I wonder if the old router (the one that I used for many years with no problem) left something in each of the four computer's registry that is making them have some conflict with the new router?

[Puter Padowan]

Hi Nimnorf

Go to one computer while the router is connected and try the following (if you didn't already) Get to your network connections and right click on the local area connection. Choose properties. From that window select TCP/IP and then select properties. In the next window select Advanced and go to the WINS tab.

On the bottom you will see three choices under the "Net BIOS Settings" header. Make sure that the first choice is selected while your using the router. Let me know if it already is marked off. The first choice will say "Default" Use NETBIOS from DHCP blah blah....

Good luck.

[nimnorf2]

Padowan,
Thanks for the info. I'll get on it when I have some time. If I unplug the hub (to do what you suggest) then everyone in my family will lose internet connectivity which would could lead to family disharmony (the bunch of thankless beggars that they are, wife not included). I did attempt what you recommended while hooked up to the old hub, but could not find what you listed.
Thanks,
Nimnorf2

[jlreich]

It's sounds like your modem may be a modem/router combo. That would account for the hub seeming to work like a router allowing all of the machines to get a valid IP address. Perhaps the router part was in bridge mode, but the modem was reset somehow and now there is a conflict with the Belkin router.

What is the make and model# of the modem and the Belkin router?

The only other explanation for a hub seeming to work that way is if you are on a campus or other large network that is dishing out IP addresses, giving each computer it's own address.

Oh BTW, get rid of the hub and pick up a switch. They are pretty cheap these days and will perform much better than a hub. And if you have Gigabyte NIC's in your computers, or even some of your computers, you can get a Gigabyte switch and have even better speeds than a router or hub inside your LAN. ;)

[Puter Padowan]

Padowan,
Thanks for the info. I'll get on it when I have some time. If I unplug the hub (to do what you suggest) then everyone in my family will lose internet connectivity which would could lead to family disharmony (the bunch of thankless beggars that they are, wife not included). I did attempt what you recommended while hooked up to the old hub, but could not find what you listed.
Thanks,
Nimnorf2

Hey :D

Well I'm not saying this IS the issue BUUT here is what you can try doing while your router is hooked up. First make sure that your modem is not also a combo modem router like what was mentioned earlier. If you can confirm that it's not then do the following:

Go to <Start> then <Control Panel>
Look for the icon that says "Network Connections" and double click that. On the right of the screen you will see your "Local Area Connection" icon. RIGHT click on it and select "Properties". From there you will see a window with several choices in the center. One of them say "TCP/IP" Select that and then press the "Properties" button located on the right slightly below that window. From there another window will open with several tabs to view. Choose the tab that says "WINS". In the WINS tab look to the bottom of the window. While your router is connected make sure the first option has been selected. Again, this is assuming your modem is not both a modem and router. If the first option (Default) is already marked off, let me know and we can try something else.

I'm sure the experts here will have more information for you as well. :D Good luck.

[nimnorf2]

Padowan,
Thanks for the second response. You are demonstrating what Jim Collins calls rigorous attention in his book "Good to Great". I appreciate it.
Anyway, I discovered that what you were referring to in your earlier post was when dealing with a Windows XP computer. I originally looked for your directives on my old 98SE unit. At any rate, the Windows XP unit had the default box checked in the Advanced TCP/IP (NetBIOS) Settings. Apparently that's not the problem.
Ain't this a kick? Crappy little hub, works and Belkin Router won't.

BTW. I discovered today that I can see and access files on the other computers in my local network (here at home) when hooked up to the router, but still no access to the internet. I bet that little bit of info is going to be helpful now. I wish I knew networking better. Sheesh!

[nimnorf2]

Jlreich,
Thanks to you as well, for your response. Almost everything I've learned about computers has been largely a function of this site and helpful people like yourself.
I don't think my modem is a combo. It's a Cisco 675 ADSL modem. One power IO, one phone jack to wall, one phone jack to phone, one CAT 5 to NIC, router or hub, and one CAT 5 labeled MGMT (probably for onsite support service). At any rate, I've used the system for some years now and never had any problem. Same router as the replacements that won't work now.

The Router is a Belkin 4-Port Router model # F5D5231-4 version 3111, same model number of the one that used to work.

Gosh, I thought a router was a switch. Check me on this: I thought the reason that hubs were held in contempt was because they slowed down data transfer when in a network because they had to share band width, whereas a router or switch (I thought they were the same thing) actually sent data in batches to separate units more quickly. Also, I understood that a Router by definition gave a hardware firewall, whereas a hub did not.
So, am I a total newb or what?

Looking forward to your response, bro (a term used hesitantly by an old fat white guy, who's attempting to be hip, ha!)

[jlreich]

Cisco 675 (http://shopping.msn.com/specs/shp/?itemId=24574576) ADSL modem is indeed a Modem/Router combo. Which makes sense. It must have been setup in bridge mode or the Belkin was, and one of them has gotten reset some how. Or since the Belkin had been replaced it probably what has changed.

I am not familiar with Cisco products. There are a few guys around here that will know more about them and hopefully they will pick up on this thread and will be able to tell you better about what to do with it.

But you don't really need the other router, or you need to put one of them into bridge mode so they are not conflicting with each other. But I would wait for one of the others that know more about the Cisco products before doing anything.

I thought a router was a switch.
Hubs are nothing more than a glorified splitter. They are not smart and do nothing except send the traffic out on all ports, which is why you get network slowdowns with them. Hubs are pretty much considered obsolete.

A switch can read the address from the frame and knows where to send it and only sends it out on the port the destination computer is on. Much more efficient.

Routers do indeed have a switch built into them but also perform on a higher level. Actually most routers are several components wrapped up into one device.

[Puter Padowan]

Hi Nimnorf

I hope you were able to solve the issue. Now that it is known you had a modem/router combo. Hopefully it will make things easier. I apologize and didn't realize you were working with a 98SE system.

[nimnorf2]

No, still no resolution. I don't know what it means to be set up "bridge". I don't think there is any way to change the settings either on my router (that doesn't work) or the modem which seems to be sending out an adequate signal. I do still think it is interesting that I can access files on other computers in my local area network, while hooked up through the router, but cannot accesst the internet.

[classicsoftware]

There are three Possible Solutions:

1) Use The DSL modem in bridge Mode: You connect the DSL modem to the router and the PC's to the router. You will first need to contact tech support from your ISP and learn how to place the router in bridge mode.

2) Use the Router in Bridge Mode: This really means disabling DHCP in the router. Either contact the tech support people at the router's manufacturer or go on line to their website or play around with firmware settings yourself.

3) Replace the router with a switch: The is the ideal solution to the problem. You have been playing around with this for two weeks. Go out today and buy a switch, they are very inexpensive. Hook up the switch to the modem. Plug the PC's into the switch. Enjoy your little network. Problem solved.

[jlreich]

I agree with Classic, dump the router, you don't need it. And pick up a switch. That's is your easiest and best solution. Switches are plug and play, no configuring to them at all.

I can access files on other computers in my local area network, while hooked up through the router, but cannot accesst the internet.

When you hook up the router to the modem/router you will be able to communicate with any machine that is also on that router because the modem/router doesn't really come into play until you try to go outside of the Belkin LAN. But getting outside of that LAN is problematic because of two routers trying to do the same thing.

[nimnorf2]

thanks to all.
Sheesh! I even got charles involved. I feel special.
At least I think Classic is the boss, isn't he?
Anyhow, I decided to make a door stop out of the Belkin router and attempted to hook up all the computers in my home through an old Linksys Wireless router with 4 hard wire ports as well. Joy! Everything works, without changing anything. Go figure.
Kudos to Jlreich, Deddard, Charles, padowan, did I miss anyone?

[jlreich]

Go figure indeed! But who cares, it works! :p

Cincinnati huh? Heck I'm only about a 45 minute drive from you. :)

[Fruss Tray Ted]

Classicsware = Charles?

There's Hertz,, and then there's Not Exactly! ;)

I've seen him called Ben many times but never Charles!!! :D