binary vs decimal kilobyte? Nonsense!

[Yohaheho]

I copied this next paragraph from the binary vs decimal measurements. http://www.pcguide.com/intro/fun/bindec.htm

Computers are digital and store data using binary numbers, or powers of two, while humans normally use decimal numbers, expressed as powers of ten. As it turns out, two to the tenth power, 2^10, is 1,024, which is very close in value to 1,000 (10^3). Similarly, 2^20 is 1,048,576, which is approximately 1,000,000 (10^6), and 2^30 is 1,073,741,824, close to 1,000,000,000 (10^9). When computers and binary numbers first began to be used regularly, computer scientists noticed this similarity, and for convenience, "hijacked" the abbreviations normally used for decimal numbers and began applying them to binary numbers. Thus, 2^10 was given the prefix "kilo", 2^20 was called "mega", and 2^30 "giga".

I don’t agree with that.

When dealing with any decimal unit the traditional meaning of kilo (1,000) or mega (1,000,000) holds true. Remember we are dealing with bytes which is based on binary not decimal units. Therefore when scientists started dealing with bytes there was no standard. They saw that 2^10 = 1,024 which is close to 1,000 so they coined the term kilobyte. The term kilo is a prefix not an abbreviation. Computer scientists placed this prefix before the word byte to indicate 1,024 bytes. Every dictionary I’ve ever looked in indicates that a kilobyte is 1,024 bytes. There was no standard and one was created when scientists added the prefix kilo to byte. The scientists working with and building the first computers created this kilobyte then sticking with their mathematical naming convention came the term megabyte and gigabyte.

I think “decimal” kilobyte and megabytes and gigabytes came into being by hard drive manufacturers. They simply inaccurately used the term megabyte to equal 1,000,000 bytes. This is a complete fabrication on there part. Computer Scientists set the standard when they attached the prefixes kilo and mega and giga to the word byte. I’m having a hard time tracing this inaccurate “decimal” kilo or mega byte back to its origins.

Anyone that has any input about this weather you think I’m right or you think I’m a nut, let me know. Also if anyone can point me in the direction where I might be able to do further research as to where this silly “decimal” standard came from please let me know. There are tons of pages giving information like what I have included above but I want to know who or which company started calling a 1,000,000 bytes a megabyte.

Even if you don’t have any input please cast a vote as to what you think:

I’m right or I’m a nut.

Thanks
Yohaheho

[Paleo Pete]

I'm a nut... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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[ixl]

Yohaheho,

The terms "kilo" and "mega" etc had well-defined meanings long before digital computers existed. If anyone "co-opted" the term, it was those who chose to apply it to binary powers instead of decimal ones.

As for blaming the hard disk manufacturers... how many bits per second is a 56K modem theoretically capable of?

How about a 1.544 megabit per second T-1 line?

How many cycles per second does a 1 GHz CPU run at?

The simple reality is that both decimal and binary terms are used in computing. Neither is more "correct" than the other. If you read the rest of the piece you quoted, you'll see that there are special abbreviations for the binary terms now.

PS How about the 1.44 MB floppy: is that binary or decimal? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
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Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...
Note: Please reply to my forum postings here on the forums. Thanks.

[Yohaheho]

ixl,

Good lookin' kid you got there.

Now down to business.
I know that kilo and mega have been well defined long before computers.
I also know that measuring data transfer is measured wierd also, I don't know much specifics of it but I don't want this to go too far astray. I'd like to stick to storage capacity measurements for this thread.
There was never a kilobyte until a scientest said that 1024 bytes equals a "kilobyte". Do you agree with this? When the scientest said that and the other scientests agreed. BANG! It was a new term with a definition attached...carved in stone until the end of time.
Who came up with the "decimal" kilobyte? Who said OK forget what the computer scientest say is a kilobyte I want a kilobyte to be 1000 bytes?
You say that decimal and binary terms are used in computing. This is true however if you are calling kilobyte - 1024 bytes a binary term than what is a decimal kilobyte? Just chop of 24 bytes so you have 1000 bytes and it's now a decimal term? I think that's rounding off. If not than that's the easiest conversion from one numbering system to another that I've ever seen.
Zip disks are also guilty of this fabricated nontraceable "decimal" labeling. Who started this inaccurate 24 byte chopping "decimal" stuff?

Also just for the sake of argument a binary number will only have 1's or 0's. As far as a binary or decimal term...I'm not sure what that means...1 kilobyte? Is this a "term" because it has numbers and words together?

FYI - The reason I'm so hung up on this is I've been in a pissing contest with Western Digital for a couple of weeks now. I bought a 100 gigabyte drive. Which is measured in this "decimal" (seems like false advertising to me) nonsense. The drive is 93 gigabytes no matter how you slice it. I asked them about it and they simply LIED to me about it. I asked them to substantiate what they said and they ignored the question. I asked for references or sources, again I was either lied to or ignored. Nice...huh?

If anybody wants to read my emails back and forth with Western Digital let me know and I'll post it. It's in a word doc...Can I attach it to a post? If so how? Or if you want me to email it to you. I'd really like any input on this. If anywhere in the emails you see that I'm wrong please let me know.

Thanks
Yohaheho

[saphalline]

So are you saying WD is wrong? I mean, if both binary and decimal prefixes exist in the computer world, isn't WD still right from a certain point of view?

The part we're getting hung up on is the media for storage. This sounds like one of those "we'll never know what really happened" sort of stories. But one thing you have to consider is that the magnetic platter storage of today wasn't exactly widely available back in the '50s and '60s (when this mess got started, maybe even earlier). The computer scientists working on the ENIAC didn't have 100GB hard drives sitting around, they largely used puch cards and electro-mechanical relays, and later magnetic reels. It simply wasn't a problem for them because storage was much smaller and massively more expensive back then (which also caused Y2K but that's another story). Nowadays, all those "lost" 24's really add up - about 7GB in your case - but only computer scientists had to use any bytes in the '60s.

The whole mess must then have started in the '70s (Gates & Jobs - I rest my case) when computers were becoming much more mainstream. Could have been a miscommunication, could have been a lawyer who didn't want a lawsuit over 24 per 1000, could have been an angry European who didn't like the idea of a bunch of computer nuts hacking the metric system apart - we'll probably never know. But one thing we do know - by today's mainstream and official standards (aka "legal"), a Kilobyte = 1000 bytes and a Kibibyte = 1024 bytes.

I'm afraid there's no way around it. Long has it been known that hard drive manufacturers subscribe to the cold decimal matra, they chop off every one of those 24's. They tell you this in Best Buy ads, on retail boxes, on every honest computer vendor's site, and in every good PC/Mac magazine. But most importantly, it's in their legal script. And I'm afraid you won't have any luck trying to crack that sucker.

For those of us who know the truth, we can speak of the extra 24. For those who know only the religions known as "metric" and "legal", they shun the extra 24 like a plague. As for the rest of the population, they're just confused, if they even notice it at all.

Hey, anyone feel like changing the storage industry? How 'bout we take back those 24 when holographic storage comes rolling around! Who's with me? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
"No, we do not gnaw on our kitty." - Dr. Evil

[Ghost_Hacker]

This is why kilo means 1024 in computer terms instead of 1000 (as IXL and yourself have pointed out it has to do with "Binary" powers. Most folks wrongly assume that 1 kilobyte =1000 bytes because of the prefix used.)


"How many bytes are in a kilobyte (KB)? One may think it's 1000 bytes, but its really 1024. Why is this so? It turns out that our early computer engineers, who dealt with the tiniest amounts of storage, noticed that 2^10 (1024) was very close to 10^3 (1000); so based on the prefix kilo, for 1000, they created the KB. (You may have heard of kilometers (Km) which is 1000 meters). So in actuality, one KB is really 1024 bytes, not 1000. It's a small difference, but it adds up over a while."

So by this reasoning a 93 gigabyte drive (using a computer's gigabyte) is actually 99,857,989,632 bytes in size which WD has rounded to 100GB (metric). (1GB in it's true computer term = 1,073,741,824 bytes)

So the fact that you or I don't agree has nothing to do with how things are done or will be done. We just have to understand why.

Or as they say "you don't have to like it you just have to do it" http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


EDIT If you really want to argue with WD find out for certain how many bytes your hard drive holds. (not kilobytes or megabytes or gigabytes, but simply bytes. Then see if that number is close to what they say. It's the number of bytes a drive holds that most hd makers are talking about when they put HD "space" on their drives.)



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 06-26-2002).]

[mjc]

Caveat Emptor...

We all know that the marketing departments of most corporations have no clue about the laws of Nature, the laws of physics etc... to them what sounds good must be the truth. Just because someone who could actually do higher math (in this case something more than simple addition), has no bearing whatsoever on the truth, that rounding and fudging are standard practices when it comes to marketing a product, and what the marketing department says the figure is what the real answer is. Exaggerated claims have been and always will be the staple of the marketing department.

No, it didn't matter that much when drive sizes where smaller but as the storage capacity increases, yes, the difference between what the marketing department says the drive is and what it will really hold is going to be much more significant.

Most of us are guilty of the same thing every day, how often do you hear someone say that a particular item cost $5 when in reality the price was $4.95 plus tax?

------------------
mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.


Please Post Questions in the forums, not my email. Thanks

[Paleo Pete]

Most of us are guilty of the same thing every day, how often do you hear someone say that a particular item cost $5 when in reality the price was $4.95 plus tax?

Which actually comes out to $5.35

Good analogy though...

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[old_kid]

Hi Yoha:

I have to agree - at least when it comes to Hard drives - you usually end up with 2 numbers -

The Hard Drive "actual" Number of bytes - and the computer compatible "usable" bytes

so an 80Gig drive is actually 80,000,000,000 Bytes but...

In Windows you get 2 numbers - 80G where 1K=1000 bytes and 78G where 1K=1024 bytes

As Ixl pointed out - the computer industry stole the terms from Science/math et al - not the other way around -

And since computers use binary and thus must use numbers like 1K=1024, and we all have to agree on that definition to be able to address data etc - Hard Drive manufactureres, on the other hand, can speak in terms of "actual" bytes, when it comes to capacity - maybe they need this for manufacturing reasons - I don't know ....

...or maybe they can get more money for an 80Gig drive than for a computer usable 78Gig Drive - and even THAT figure is misleading as we lose at least one head worth of storage used by the hard drive itself to do its own thing - so we we don't even get that 78Gig but something significantly less depending on the ultimate translation after autodetect In CMOS.

I am not going to complain though - 6 years ago, I spent over $350 for a 1Gig drive!! 3 years ago spent half that for a 13Gig drive!! 2 weeks ago spent half of what I spent 3 years ago for an 80 Gig drive.

I like the trend -
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif

------------------
Good Judgement comes from Experience - Experience comes from Bad Judgement - but bad judgement is more fun!!

[Yohaheho]

saphalline -


But one thing we do know - by today's mainstream and official standards (aka "legal"), a Kilobyte = 1000 bytes and a Kibibyte = 1024 bytes.


Where did you get this from? If it's official it must be in writting and traceable...Right? Where did you find this "legal" defination for kilobyte and I'v never seen or heard of kilibyte. Please give me some sorces for this info.

Ghost_Hacker -

Thanks for the support on this. Its seems people have been duped for so long they are absorbing it as fact.

The 100 gigabyte drive I'm talking about is actually:
100,019,372,032 bytes (according to prorerties page of the drive)
Western digital simply slid the decimal place over 9 spaces and calls it 100 gigabytes. This is so wrong and simply not true!

Anybody got any sources yet as to where this all started?
Thanks
Yohaheho

[Yohaheho]

Old_Kid -


I have to agree - at least when it comes to Hard drives - you usually end up with 2 numbers -

The Hard Drive "actual" Number of bytes - and the computer compatible "usable" bytes

so an 80Gig drive is actually 80,000,000,000 Bytes but...

In Windows you get 2 numbers - 80G where 1K=1000 bytes and 78G where 1K=1024 bytes


HOG WASH!!!

A 74.5 Gig drive is 80,000,000,000 bytes...Do the math.

What the hell is an "actual" byte? How many bits in an actual byte?
The only byte I know of is 8 bits.



And since computers use binary and thus must use numbers like 1K=1024,


Computers use binary so they use numbers more like 1K=10000000000

This price of HDD's has gone down a great deal which is fantastic. However I bought a 100 gigabyte drive because I want to put at least 95-97 gigabytes worth of data on there. I guess I need a computer that uses "actual" bytes. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Keep it coming. I'm on a mission to find this stuff out.

Anybody got any other good boards I can post this question on?

Thanks
Yohaheho

[john5211]

Yohaheho,

I don't mean to sound cruel or meanspirited, but this is not a new phenomena. ALL major hard drive manufactures use 1 GB = 10^9 bytes, and have been doing so for (at least) several years.

Also, if you look in the product literature, they are usually pretty up front about the usage of gigabyte. For example, I went to an online retailer that I buy from on occasion, and clicked on the product details page (http://direct.mwave.com/mwave/doc/073253.html) for a hard drive; there was an asterisk next to the drive capacity, and the corresponding footnote defined gigabyte to be 10^9 bytes. I also went to WD's website and looked at a specification page (http://www.wdc.com/products/current/drives.asp?Model=WD1200AB) for a random hard drive; again, gigabyte was clearly defined to be equal to 10^9 bytes.

So it would seem that the definition is present in the product descriptions. I understand that it can be frustrating to purchase something and not get what you expected, but I don't think that anyone was purposely trying to mislead you or rip you off.

John

[This message has been edited by john5211 (edited 06-27-2002).]

[saphalline]

saphalline -

Where did you get this from? If it's official it must be in writting and traceable...Right? Where did you find this "legal" defination for kilobyte and I'v never seen or heard of kilibyte. Please give me some sorces for this info.

Like john5211 has said, it's on their web pages, in the ads, it's clearly labeled on HD retail boxes - what more proof do you need that they consider this the "true" or "official" value for a GB? It's not the same as what the computer detects http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif but it's what hard drive manufacturers use.

Oh that wasn't a spelling mistake. Kibibyte is the binary term for 1024 bytes (someone within the inner "metric religion" circle came up with these "official" binary prefixes). Likewise, there's Mibibyte, Gibibyte, etc. Somewhere there's a web page on these, can't remember it right now... maybe www.metric.com/ (http://www.metric.com/) ? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
"No, we do not gnaw on our kitty." - Dr. Evil

[Yohaheho]

John 5211

I don't think you are being mean spirited. This is what I asked for.

When I bought the drive there was nothing to the effect of 1,000,000,000 bytes equaling a gigabyte nor in the information inside the box. By the time I realized this the drive was in service and couldn't be removed.

I also went to the western Digital page and found this

Western Digital defines a megabyte (MB) as 1,000,000 bytes and a gigabyte (GB) as 1,000,000,000 bytes.


By this time it's too late, the drive is in service.
Also where does Western Digital get off making up it's own defination of gigabyte? Next we will buy a box labeled 100 gigabyte hard drive and open it up to find an orange crayon and in some foot note on their website will be something like "Western Digital defines a hard drive as an orange crayon."
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif



So it would seem that the definition is present in the product descriptions. I understand that it can be frustrating to purchase something and not get what you expected, but I don't think that anyone was purposely trying to mislead you or rip you off


I think Western Digital was absolutely positivly trying to and suceeded in misleading me! I think that is the whole reason behind this. I bought the drive because written on the outside of the box in big purple letters was written 100 GIGABYTES.

Next
Yohaheho

[Yohaheho]

saphalline -



Like john5211 has said, it's on their web pages, in the ads, it's clearly labeled on HD retail boxes - what more proof do you need that they consider this the "true" or "official" value for a GB? It's not the same as what the computer detects but it's what hard drive manufacturers use.


It is NOT clearly labeled on a Western Digital Box. I have the box and paperwork that came with it in front of me. The proof I need is something substantial, a guide line something in writing that can be used by the industry not just Western Digitals definition. I'm sure that their marketing department considers it true. They can make stuff up and put it on their site all day, but that wouldn't make it true. The computer doesn't detect it because it's made up. The computer detects however many bytes are there and available.


Oh that wasn't a spelling mistake. Kibibyte is the binary term for 1024 bytes (someone within the inner "metric religion" circle came up with these "official" binary prefixes). Likewise, there's Mibibyte, Gibibyte, etc. Somewhere there's a web page on these, can't remember it right now... maybe www.metric.com/ (http://www.metric.com/) ?


So you're telling me that kilibyte is equal to 1024 bytes? I did a search on google for kili, migi and gigibytes. I got a few hits but most were in a different language. I saw one page in english but it sure looked like a typo to me. For the sake of arguement I'll take your word for it.
If kilibyte = 1024 bytes than what does kilobyte equal? Is the definition of this going to change to kilobyte = 1000 bytes? That's alot of dictionaries, web page dictionaries and A+ certification books to change! All of these define a kilobyte as 1024 bytes.

Who knows...Maybe I'm wrong.
And all the dictionaries,
And all the web based dictionaries,
And all the A+ certification books,
Maybe Windows and Macintosh and Unix are all wrong.
I think we should do a mass emailing to all these companies and the many others that I'm missing and point them to the Western Digital page to straighten them out.

Thanks
Yohaheho

[mjc]

how about this (http://www.google.com/search?q=kibibyte&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) ?

Is NIST (http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html) (National Institute of STandards) good enough for you?

As to where it started.....that is lost in the mists of time. You tell me the place the BigBang occurred....when you get to the Nist page look at the little "Historical Context" section. There you will find out that when computers where the sole realm of "geeks" there were no misunderstandings because everyone knew that 1 Kilo meant 1024, not 1000. It was only when computers and the general public met did the confusion begin, without any specific source.

All of that is beside the point, if you bought a 100 gig hard drive planning to put close to 97gigs of data on it you were not going to make it even without the creative juggling of the "kilobyte"...you were completely ignoring the fact that all file systems have a certain amount of overhead and the larger the drive, the more space the file system itself eats up. Cluster size on a FAT drive would also limit the amount of space available for actual storage (if you have a file that is one byte over the cluster size, another whole cluster would be used to store that one byte) this is called slack (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/part.htm) and all file systems are subject to this to one degree or another...slack will typically waste between 25 and 50% of you space....so even if you have 100 usable GB you would only be able to use about 75GB of it for actual data storage.


IBM:

GB equals one billion bytes when referring to hard drive capacity; accessible capacity may be less.

Maxtor:

Specifications subject to change without notice. GB means 1 billion bytes. Total accessible capacity varies depending on operating environment.


Seagate:

Capacity:Capacity is the amount of data that the drive can store, after formatting. Most disc drive companies, including Seagate, calculate disc capacity based on the assumption that 1 megabyte = 1000 kilobytes and 1 gigabyte=1000 megabytes.


The above was taken from various online and printed documents from the aforementioned manufacturers...
------------------
mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.


Please Post Questions in the forums, not my email. Thanks



[This message has been edited by mjc (edited 06-27-2002).]

[Yohaheho]

saphalline -

A thousand appologies. I spelled kibibyte wrong on my search. I should have been more attentive. I'm sorry.

mjc -

Thanks for the google page with the correct spelling of kibibyte. I'm surprized you didn't let me have it for that. I'm glad I'm posting again before saphalline or he would have let me have it for sure...Who knows...He still might. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif



Is NIST (National Institute of STandards) good enough for you?


Awesome...This is EXACTLY what I was looking for!

I know that you can't use %100 of the drive space. I didn't know that it was called slack though and thanks for the link. These posts would cut to the chase alot faster if everyone would post links. I'm using NTFS. I'm not sure how efficient this file system is. That's why I said 97 gig, I thought 3 gig would cover the "slack". I'm not at work right now to test this, I'm already home for the night, but tommorrow I'll let you guys know if I can fit 97 gig on my 100 gig drive. Actually I'll try to put 90 gig on my 93 gig drive that came in a 100 gig box.

Alright, back to the root of the matter. http://www.iec.ch/cgi-bin/procgi.pl/www/iecwww.p?wwwlang=E&wwwprog=sea22.p&search=iecnumber&header=IEC&pubno=60027&part=2&se=&submit=Submit#top
This standard is a work in progress...Meaning it's NOT a standard.
It sure seems like it might be though. Does this mean they will really change the definition in dictionaries and A+ cert books and so on?

I've also seen these pages where HDD manufactures state something like.

1 GB = 1 billion bytes or 1 GB = 1,000,000,000
This is fine. They can say that GB stand for what ever they want.

However I think that the one's that state

1 gigabyte equals 1 billion bytes are dead wrong or lying.
1 gigabyte is more than 1 billion bytes. This may change if...IF the new standard is agreed apon and implimented.

Until then a kilobyte is 1024 bytes.

Anybody who says other wise is a lemming following all the other lemmings off of a clif. Don't just follow everyone else everything your told. Make people substantiate what they say. Western Digital has yet to substantiate that 1 kilobyte is equal to 1000 bytes. Yes it's true that alot of people believe this but that doesn't mean that you should join the ignorant mass.

Thanks
Yohaheho

[ixl]

Originally posted by Ghost_Hacker:

This is why kilo means 1024 in computer terms instead of 1000 (as IXL and yourself have pointed out it has to do with "Binary" powers. Most folks wrongly assume that 1 kilobyte =1000 bytes because of the prefix used.)

I still don't agree with the notion that kilo means 1024 "in computer terms". What about all the computer terms where decimal powers are used, above and beyond the matter of storage devices?

The reality is that both terms are used, and not even consistently. I brought up the example of the "1.44 MB" floppy for a reason, actually: it uses both. Howdya like that? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...
Note: Please reply to my forum postings here on the forums. Thanks.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Hmmmmm....

I would have to say that there is a metric(power of 10) and a binary (power of 2) "kilo". ( perhaps the "bad" labeling is a result of the poor adoption of the metric system at the time by most Americans????)

In any case I agree that manufactures are simply inconsistent with how they label their products. ( should we label them so "Mary" the consumer understands or "Joe" the Computer geek understands).

Now that the world has become such a small place and most Americans now use or at least understand the metric system this has become sort of a problem.



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 06-27-2002).]

[Yohaheho]

ixl -


I still don't agree with the notion that kilo means 1024 "in computer terms". What about all the computer terms where decimal powers are used, above and beyond the matter of storage devices?

Not kilo means 1024. Kilobyte = 1024.
And the fact that you use both.
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gifIT FREAKS ME OUT!!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif
Just kiddin' http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Ghost_Hacker -


In any case I agree that manufactures are simply inconsistent with how they label their products.

I think they consistently label them wrong. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif


( should we label them so "Mary" the consumer understands or "Joe" the Computer geek understands).


I think if Mary gets a hard drive in a 100 gig box and can't fit a 95 gig file on it...I don't think she'll understand. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Anybody that I have not converted keep it coming.
If you don't need converting then good for you and pass the word.
Yohaheho

[mjc]

Actually, it is a standard, the words has been accepted by the governmental bodies in charge of standards....the problem is that none of them have required manufacturers to follow this particular standard, nor do they seem to have any kind of enforcement policies for it.

NTFS uses a cluster size of 4096 bytes for partitions over 2G, so maybe....plus if you have alot of smaller files the slack will be higher than if you have a few very large files.

------------------
mjc
Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.


Please Post Questions in the forums, not my email. Thanks

[Yohaheho]

mjc-

Wow! You might be right!
However I'm even more confused now though :(

On this page:
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

In December 1998 the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), the leading international organization for worldwide standardization in electrotechnology, approved as an IEC International Standard names and symbols for prefixes for binary multiples for use in the fields of data processing and data transmission.

They approved the use? Does this mean you're allowed to used it don't have too?

Official publications
The complete citation for this revised standard is IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics

Can anybody point me to a download link for this. I found one but they wanted money for it.

Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body.

Can sombody decipher the above quote for me? IEEE will use above atandards except base two definition may be used until binary prefixes are adopted by standards body? What does this mean? Mibi and such is the standard but you can use mega to mean either 1000 or 1024?:confused:

If the above is the standard since Dec 1998:
Then Microsoft and Linux are using the term gigabyte WRONG!
Does everyone agree with this?
Somebody has got to be wrong at some point!!!
Microsoft says a gigabyte = X
then
Hard Drive manufactures say a gigabyte = Y
If a standard is in place then somebody is wrong...
Who? Who? Who?
They can't both be right!

Yohaheho

[mjc]

That is part of the problem with standards, when the governing bodies do not put the force of law or at least some kind of policing power into an organisation to see that the standard is actually being followed. Right now, the standard may exist but there is no governmental agency enforcing it, so much has not changed. Everyone is still using what meanings they always have used. As drives get larger more and more people are beginning to notice, many just don't care, but a feeling of resentment is building. sooner or later some group will push for enforcement, but until that time it is sort of an "optional" thing....

[Yohaheho]

Well thanks for your input everybody:)

I guess I'll let this thread R.I.P.

I shall continue on my crusede however daunting the task may be.:(

Thanks
Yohaheho

[old_kid]

Hi Yoha:

HOG WASH?? Sarcasm?? Please let me know what you found so offensive that you felt a need for such a response.

On second thought - don't bother - obviously there wasn't any need.

[Yohaheho]

old_kid -

Sorry about that. I didn't mean anything bad, I was saying it in a jestful manner. I didn't realize how bad it sounded until I just reread it. That's one thing bad about boards...You can't pick up undertones. When I posted that I was having a chuckle not trying to be mean spirited. I make sure to use more emotioncons in the future.

Sorry
Yohaheho

[old_kid]

Hey Yoha:

It's ok - I was just surprised as I started out my post saying that I was agreeing with you and was a little puzzled at yor response

You are right - if we were jawing face to face it would be different - words are helped with a smile or tone of voice

:)

[terryf1960]

What a silly discussion. Whats the difference. I buy a 30 GB hard drive and format it and I've only got a little over 28 GB. So what happenned to the other nearly 2 GB. Well I understand where it went(File system overhead. Boot sector etc..) so whats the differnce. You know that a true kilo is 1000 but in binary really amounts to 1024. So big deal. I would have hardly thought this topic deserved its own thread.

[terryf1960]

<i>NTFS uses a cluster size of 4096 bytes for partitions over 2G, so maybe....plus if you have alot of smaller files the slack will be higher than if you have a few very large files.</i>


NTFS uses 4k cluster sizes under 2GB as well. I'm pretty sure it is 4K up to 8GB. could be wrong on the maximum.

[Paul Komski]

What the hell is an "actual" byte? How many bits in an actual byte?

Prior to 1956 there were 6 bits per byte; see HERE (http://medic.bgu.ac.il/comp/course/defs/byte.html)

[terryf1960]

<i>What the hell is an "actual" byte? How many bits in an actual byte?</i>

Anybody who works in the computer industry knows that it doesn't matter what it was yesterday. Only today matters. This is a very dynamic, and constantly changing industry. Today an actual byte is 8 bits. Tomorrow...who knows.

[iisbob]

Anybody who works in the computer industry knows that it doesn't matter what it was yesterday

Obviously you've never delt with legacy machines, or worked in the outside world in consulting-there are times when the " old " knowledge is not only needed-but required for you to fix/update old equipment at a workplace.

As for bit/byte sizes, true-there is no real need to concern yourself over that until you have to set up a legacy hard drive by hand.

Nothing Old is ever wasted, certainly not knowledge-and if you ever want a successful career in the PC industry you'd do well to know not only the lateset and greatest but also the oldest and slowest.

Businesses will rarely upgrade/purchase the latest and greatest hardware/software-and even today on consulting jobs i still occasionally come across businesss running WFW 3.11 or even 10B5 networks with ISA NIC's on 120-640 MB hard drives. :rolleyes:

[ixl]

The term byte has traditionally been the most popular in common parlance for a set of eight bits, especially in North America. However, it is technically not the correct term. A byte is, formally, the smallest unit of data that can be read from or written to at one time in a computer system. In most cases that is indeed eight bits, but there are some systems where a byte is not eight bits. For this reason, many people, especially techie professionals, prefer the term octet, which clearly and unambiguously implies "eight". This term is much more common outside North America.

[terryf1960]

<i>Obviously you've never delt with legacy machines, or worked in the outside world in consulting-there are times when the " old " knowledge is not only needed-but required for you to fix/update old equipment at a workplace</i>


I do work in the real world buddy and I don't know what two bit operation you work for, where your antiquated knowledge would be of any use. You tell me what legacy equipment is going to run my Exchange 2000 e-mail servers. Legacy to me is NT 4. Excuse me if I don't go back 10 or 20 years. Read the job adds. The most expereince that gets asked for is about 5 maybe 7 years. In the IT industry much more stress is put on being current then old. So maybe with your dinasour attitude you might solve a problem that keeps a system limping along inefficiently for a little while longer, but I'll replace it with something new and increase productivity.:mad:

[Ghost_Hacker]

True staying current in today's job market is important. Still not every shop is a Windows shop running the lastest and greatest from Redmond. (nor is ever shop even running Windows.)


Most of the smaller shops I deal with on the side have alot of older hardware and software. Being cheap is more important to these folks then being cutting edge. :D

[terryf1960]

<i>Most of the smaller shops I deal with on the side have alot of older hardware and software. Being cheap is more important to these folks then being cutting edge.</i>

Redhat 7.1 running squid proxy and firewall scripts help me stay cutting edge and cheap.

[mjc]

Just a few months ago, city hall replaced their 386 machine, had it since it was new.

There are a vast number of local governments, small business owners, small to medium sized corporations that do not and will not upgrade every 2 years, will not consider anything but M$ software (must be comapatible)...there are some who can't upgrade because the proprietary software that they have based their whole existence on cannot run under the latest whiz-bang OS out of Redmond. Face it, until it goes up in smoke most business owners I know are of the mind..."if it works, don't fix it."

The hospital my wife works at is entirely run on an NT/Win95 network...no thought of an upgrade before 2005 (at the earliest).

[iisbob]

No need to be an ASS with your attitude i was simply pointing out that there is still a need for " elderly " knowledge in the Current work place.

So you know a little about exchange and linux, good for you-when you have succesfuly compiled your own linux kernel then beat your chest.

Anybody fresh out of a tech school with the most basic of AOS's can set up an exchange server and manage it, we won't even hire anyone at our company till they show at least Net+, A+, Unix skilled cert-and most times we require any of our newbies to have a minimun Cisco cert. degree to keep up with the rest of the dept.

No one here is impressed by your attitude or supposed skills. Companies like mine -can you say Deloitte & touche?-have the finances to run the newest and best there is on the market, but they don't foolishly throw their money out the window just because it's new.

Matter of fact we still run Lotus notes, with exchange-because that dinosaur technology works. That's the key-if it's proven to work, a company is gonna milk it for all it's worth.

If you wish to stay around here and contribute then i suggest you drop the condescending attitude, as know one here will put up with it for long.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Redhat 7.1 running squid proxy and firewall scripts help me stay cutting edge and cheap



hmmmmm... If you install it yourself, but if I install it for you it won't be cheap. :) That's why I let my customers make up their minds what they want to run. I prefer to have the skills to service them no matter what. This point is what you missed in your efforts to "defend" yourself.


Oh well......

[terryf1960]

<i>So you know a little about exchange and linux, good for you-when you have succesfuly compiled your own linux kernel then beat your chest</i>

If you regard compiling a kernel in Redhat 7.1 as a spectacular skill. then I must be conversing with a sixteen year old. It's not as difficult as it used to be.


<i>Anybody fresh out of a tech school with the most basic of AOS's can set up an exchange server and manage it, we won't even hire anyone at our company till they show at least Net+, A+,</i>

My credentials are A+, NET+, Server+ MCSE NT4, MCSEW2K, and soon to be CCNA, but then again big deal. I usually don't list my certs as they don't prove a thing. The 5 years in the feild that have fed an supported my family are all that matters to me.
I'm sorry you feel I have condescended you, but this whole conversation started from a stupid view point of a six or 8 bit byte. Next thing you know your attacking me saying I've never worked with legacy before, which I have but that was beside the point. You are the one who started any kind of condescending banter. I'm not interested in a pissing contest with you, but atleast if your going to make an attempt at discussion with me, make some sense.

<i>If you wish to stay around here and contribute then i suggest you drop the condescending attitude, as <b>know</b> one here will put up with it for long. </i>

That would be no, not know.

[ixl]

vBulletin comes with a nifty feature -- a testosterone level detector. It's sending out alerts on this thread. :)

Please, everyone, keep the discussion civil and remember that you can't go forward by patting yourself on the back.

c

[ixl]

The reality is that the matter of the number of bits in a byte isn't strictly a matter of what year you are looking at. Strictly speaking, a byte is not defined as a collection of 8 bits. That's just the most common size of byte used today.

http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?byte :

A byte may be 9 bits on 36-bit computers. Some older architectures used "byte" for quantities of 6 or 7 bits, and the PDP-10 and IBM 7030 supported "bytes" that were actually bit-fields of 1 to 36 (or 64) bits! These usages are now obsolete, and even 9-bit bytes have become rare in the general trend toward power-of-2 word sizes.

The term was coined by Werner Buchholz in 1956 during the early design phase for the IBM Stretch computer. It was a mutation of the word "bite" intended to avoid confusion with "bit". In 1962 he described it as "a group of bits used to encode a character, or the number of bits transmitted in parallel to and from input-output units".


This whole matter is the reason why many professionals prefer the more clear term "octet". Check out standards documents -- that's what you will see, not "byte".

c

[YODA74]

[QUOTE}My credentials are A+, NET+, Server+ MCSE NT4, MCSEW2K, and soon to be CCNA, but then again big deal. I usually don't list my certs as they don't prove a thing. The 5 years in the feild [/QUOTE]

Your right about that!
Brain dumps don't mean a thing in life it is the experiance behind the certs. and in 5 years there is no experiance!

I think iisbob deserves a little respect on the experiance that he has showen over the time here and the time HE has on his Job and Posistion that he carries! 5 years and no matter how many certs aquired your still not even in the same league.J-A-L-F-A

[terryf1960]

<i>Your right about that!
Brain dumps don't mean a thing in life it is the experiance behind the certs. and in 5 years there is no experiance</i>

Who in the heck said anything about braindumps? Or are you just a little troll looking for some attention?

<i>I think iisbob deserves a little respect on the experiance that he has showen over the time here and the time HE has on his Job and Posistion that he carries! 5 years and no matter how many certs aquired your still not even in the same league.J-A-L-F-A</i>

Well, obviously your just talking to hear your self, because you have no idea. As I stated earlier, I'm not interested in a pissing contest with anybody. If my credentials get me where I wanna go thats all that matters. Any one who has to come here to prove thier prowess definitely has no life. Adios

[mjc]

ENOUGH!!

I don't give a darn about anyones's credentials...as far as it goes, the paper they are written on and 50 cents, may just get you a cup of coffee.

Terry, you disdain for older technology is your business, those of us who have been around computers for a long time know that it is important, and going to the newest/fastest is not always an option. My advice, at least be familiar with it.

iisbob & yoda, calm down, it is not like he is attacking you, your families or something like that. He problaby has nothing against either of you personally, so don't take it that way.

[terryf1960]

<i>I don't give a darn about anyones's credentials...as far as it goes, the paper they are written on and 50 cents, may just get you a cup of coffee.</i>

100% agreement


<i>Terry, you disdain for older technology is your business, those of us who have been around computers for a long time know that it is important, and going to the newest/fastest is not always an option. My advice, at least be familiar with it.</i>

I do not have a disdain for older technology. Unless of course an ignorant employer can't understand why I can't use a 386 to run Netware 5.1. I too have been around computers for awhile. 15 years as a user in the home and workplace and 5 years as a tech. I understand that alot of companies use older stuff, but all I'm saying is my central focus is better served remaining current than it is on learning legacy concepts. I have faced from time to time having to solve problems that required older knowledge, but it wasn't that huge of a deal as just about anything can be referenced from a knowledge base or a vendor. Although I've run across things such as a tape backup unit that I couldn't find drivers for and the company was gone. I guess this is where my disdain for older stuff would surface. Any way I'm sorry that this discussion got out of hand. I am not in competition with anyone and I realize that there are people here that know more than me. There is always someone bigger no matter how big you are. So on that note I am done with this discussion, but not this site. Good day and hopefully no hard feelings.

[mjc]

Good deal, and we can always use another good hand around here....:D

iisbob & yoda...Pax? truce?

[YODA74]

I don't care I have had enough of little piss ants like you and your attudes I did not call you any names you little xxxx I personally don't care if I'm booted there are other forums SO UP YOURS xxx xxxx as a matter of fact I'll save anyone the effort

[terryf1960]

Sorry you feel that way yoda74. every one cops a bit of an attitude every once in awhile, myself included. The important thing is how you handle it. I do belong to other discussion boards and I gaurantee that you wouldn't last on any of them with that potty mouth. Again I will offer my apologies and ask that we can start a fresh. Although I will be very surprised if the moderator doesn't give you a bit of timeout.
Every now and then of course a conversation may get a little excited as those who are passionate on a personal view point tend to get a little emotional, but if we are professionals we should conduct our selves as such. So calling someone xxxx when you have no idea about my sexual orientation does more to expose your ignorance than mine. So please for give any of my ignorant comments and I will reciprocate.

Have a good day.

[Paul Komski]

!!!!

[ixl]

Could everyone please just knock it off, or do I need to lock this thread and send you all to bed without dessert? What a great statement about our collective geekiness, an argument over the number of bits in a byte turns to fisticuffs. :)

Please folks, this was just a misunderstanding that has spiraled out of control. Let's get back to our normal courteous selves, shall we?

Yoda: We don't "boot" regulars for losing their cool on occasion, but at the same time, we do like to see them set a good example for others here. Please resist the lure of the Dark Side of the Force (sorry, I couldn't resist. ;) )

c

[iisbob]

I agree terry, nothing personal was meant-you just riled my hackles a little, having nearly 20 years in the business and home field i too often see younger techs who show nothing but disdain for us " dinosaurs " cause they believe we are " outdated " and can't keep up.

I was simply pointing out originally that it's always a good idea to not only keep up with the newest-but to not also lose track of the oldest, becuase you never know when the ability to properly set up something like a legacy 10b5 network and properly identify the oddball AUI type connector on it may come in handy-as well as the newest 802.11 series wireless toy's.

I too thought, and still think so, that this discussion on bytes vs bits is frivilous and should have been confined to the after hours postings. But when you jumped in and begin chewing on this person's hide with such negative comments i too decided to post a rebuttal to what seemed to me an attack by an inexperianced youth too caught up in the glitter of modern toys to see the truth.

I would still suggest you take the time to study some of the legacy technlogy out there, simply because it will open more oppertunities for you in the private sector; knowing some of the older tech allows me to charge an average $150 hr consulting fee for my experiance. So even if i decided to quit or lost my job, i'm not concerned about making a living.

IXL and MJC accept my apologies for the inappropiate behaviour earlier.

[terryf1960]

I too am sorry. I guess one thing I have to remember is that not everyones situation is the same. In my expereince I have not come across too much in the way of leagacy. Other than having once to support an arcnet network (it pained me). I am familiar with what a 10b5 network is. (beleive it or not most of the books still talk about thicknet and thinnet) Its just that in my line of work I'm fortunate enough so far have to worked with some newer equipment. I'm still trying to get my boss to replace our ISA server. Dell poweredge with dual PII 266 6- 9 GB SCSI disks on Hardware RAID controller. As a network tech I could resolve some issues with a faster machine, but my boss would rather I use more ingenuity to squeeze more life out of this. Oh well its his money. I guess with all that is on my plate I'll cross the legacy bridge when I have to. Thats one of the few problems with haveing a steady job rather than contracting out on different jobs. I'm sort of limited to seeing only whats in my environment.