Huh!?

[Sylvander]

1. Decided to use the EBCD "MS Scandisk" to scan the filesystems on ALL my partitions, external USB "Flash Drive" and USB HDD included.
My EBCD has been customised by adding "USB for DOS" drivers that don't work very well as you will see in item 2.

2. All internal drives completed just fine, but when scanning my [first USB device] "Flash Drive" H: the program stopped scanning 64% through the "File System" scan.

3. "Ctrl + Alt + Del" to reboot into Windows.

4. Opened Windows Explorer and tried to read H: but just got the hourglass cursor.

5. Forced to use "Ctrl + Alt + Del" to close Windows Explorer, which messed up all the icon display in the system tray.
Somewhere about here was told that H: was being "debugged" and therefore couldn't be opened.

6. Restarted the PC and failed to stop it auto-booting into Mandriva Linux.

7. Hey-ho, took the opportunity to see if linux could view the contents of H:
Drive was not "mounted", so mounted H: and viewed the content.
Thought perhaps this might make the difference and it did.

8. Rebooted into Windows and found that H: was now working normally.

QUESTIONS
a. Why don't the "USB for DOS" drivers work, or only partly work?
b. Why do operations halt part completed?
c. What's the "debugging" bit; why/how does it deny access.
d. Why did mounting H: using Mandriva Linux fix that?

[malcore]

a. + b. Did you get a message when it paused at 64%? How long did you wait before you cancelled out?

c. It's never a good idea to cancel out of disk scanning or defragging.

d. Mounting it in Linux probably had no effect upon it being accessible again in Windows.


I would suggest using chkdsk ( I believe you are using Windows 2000?) while in Windows to scan any usb drives by right clicking the drive, choosing properties--tools and error checking. Chkdsk is included with 2000 and XP. Windows will usually try to dismount the drive before scanning. If files are in use, it will warn you and give you options.

[sburtchin]

I would suggest using chkdsk ( I believe you are using Windows 2000?) while in Windows to scan any usb drives by right clicking the drive, choosing properties--tools and error checking. Chkdsk is included with 2000 and XP. Windows will usually try to dismount the drive before scanning. If files are in use, it will warn you and give you options.I generally use CHKDSK in a DOS box in Win2000 because 1) it sometimes reports problems there that are not reported when using the GUI method, 2) much information is reported, and 3) much faster if I want to check more than one drive. I have never gotten any warning about files in use or otherwise, even when checking my Win2000 partition and my "Program Files" partition:confused:. There is no way of dismounting those partitions while Windows 2000 is running, is there?

[malcore]

I generally use CHKDSK in a DOS box in Win2000 because 1) it sometimes reports problems there that are not reported when using the GUI method, 2) much information is reported, and 3) much faster if I want to check more than one drive. I have never gotten any warning about files in use or otherwise, even when checking my Win2000 partition and my "Program Files" partition:confused:. There is no way of dismounting those partitions while Windows 2000 is running, is there?

I believe when using the GUI method, the dismount of the volume is attempted automatically, particularly if you check both the fix errors box and recover bad sectors box. Try it on your system drive with the GUI method, you will be required to reboot for chkdsk to run.

To unmount a drive using the command prompt you must use the /x switch. Of course a system drive cannot be unmounted while in Windows, a reboot will be required. Also, if you are scanning your system drive (while Windows is running) using chkdsk from the command prompt, you have not used the /f or /r switches, therfore any errors will not be fixed nor any bad sectors repaired. If you do enter the /f or /r switch on your system drive you will get a message that a reboot is required.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/218461

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windows2000serv/reskit/prork/pref_tts_ffgh.mspx

[Sylvander]

"Did you get a message when it paused at 64%?"
No message; nothing.

"How long did you wait before you cancelled out?"
Seemed like ages. Usually the progress bar moves quite rapidly and it sat there with no movement for some minutes.
I tried clicking on things like "pause" and "exit", but got no response [prog appeared unresponsive], so then tried "Ctrl+Alt+Del" and that caused reboot.

"It's never a good idea to cancel out of disk scanning or defragging."
I was aware of that, and reluctant to do it, but had no choice.
Since it affected my 1 GB Flash Drive I figured if the worst happened I could always repartition it; I can afford to lose the contents since they're just a 2nd synchronised copy of the D: partition.

"Mounting it in Linux probably had no effect upon it being accessible again in Windows."
The evidence of "things seen" suggested otherwise.

"I would suggest using chkdsk"
I frequently scan the file systems on the partitions by running chkdsk [it's quickest and easiest to scan only] at "Start >> Run >> Open: >> cmd" in read-only mode and if something is found on C: scan using "MS Scandisk" [prefer that for fixing] rather than have chkdsk run at next Startup.
I once did that with chkdsk and it caused SERIOUS problems and I was forced to restore an image.
I have used chkdsk to fix errors on partitions other than C: but my experiences have led me to prefer Scandisk.
So long as I ignore its "Invalid LFN" warnings it has always done a good job of restoring good order.
I've even been able to reinstate files [lost clusters recovered as "FILE00xx.CHK"].

[malcore]

Scandisk was introduced with DOS 6.2 I believe. It was only supplied with the 9x legacy OS flavours. chkdsk is from a prior DOS, but is enhanced for use with the NT OS flavours.

If you prefer to use Scandisk, that is your choice.

Because you cancelled out of a disk scan, Windows needed to debug. Mounting the volume in Linux had no effect upon the drive being accessible again in Windows.

See my prior post with links.

[Variable]

Not sure what OS you are running but 2000 does not use DOS. Because the CD contains DOS boot drivers does not mean they are used by Windows 2000. They are used when you boot a machine, not when the OS is up and running.

Stopping it caused the issue. If it is going to fail let Windows time it out. It no doubt was stuck on a particular file but that doesn't mean the app was locked up. It could have been trying to fix a problem.

Mounting a drive in Linux on a multi boot machine has nothing to do with Windows mounting a drive. They are mutually exclusive. Rebooting stopped the debug. When you restart the machine any process running in Windows is halted. I would look in event viewer, find the debug error and search the web for the relevent error syntax.

[sburtchin]

Stopping it caused the issue. If it is going to fail let Windows time it out.Are you saying to never "End Task" in Task Manager when an application stops responding. This is a frequent occurrance for me with Windows 2000, and ending the task has not had unexpected consequences that I have noticed. Sometimes applications come back to life, but usually an hour later they are still "Not responding". "End Task" seems the only way out most of the time. I have never had to do this with CHKDSK/R or DEFRAG though.

[Variable]

Are you saying to never "End Task" in Task Manager when an application stops responding.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

[Sylvander]

"Not sure what OS you are running but 2000 does not use DOS"
Running Win2000Pro.
So what is C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe?

"Stopping it caused the issue. If it is going to fail let Windows time it out"
I was running "MS Scandisk" within the OS loaded by the EBCD [not Windows, but not sure which OS the EBCD runs].
If I hadn't used "Ctrl+Alt+Del" I'm sure it would still be not responding now and without end.

"no doubt was stuck on a particular file but that doesn't mean the app was locked up"
I find that hard to believe. This was only a 1 GB Flash Drive. Normally an operation scanning the file system [especially for such a small file system] would be very rapid. I might try repeating the exercise and leaving it for hours.

"It could have been trying to fix a problem"
I ran chkdsk immediately after regaining access, and it was reported clean.

"Rebooting stopped the debug"
I'm assuming that the partition had been marked as being debugged and that hitting "Ctrl+Alt+Del" denied "MS Scandisk" the opportunity to unset that, so that it was still set as being debugged. When I rebooted into Windows and attempted to access the partition it was reported that the partition could not be accessed because it was in the process of being debugged.
Linux didn't say that however; it just went ahead and accessed it. I conclude that either Linux did something [unmarked the "debug" setting], or else the problem had already been fixed at that point [by Windows before rebooting into Mandriva?]

"look in event viewer, find the debug error"
Now looking in Event Viewer, but unaccustomed to this and cannot see any "debug error". Since it didn't happen within Windows, but within the EBCD OS environment, it wouldn't show in Windows. The failure to access H: might show, but I don't see that.

[Variable]

I understand your confusion because the many commands in old DOS are still around in Windows and they both have black screens by default. DOS is a 16 bit application, 2000 is 32 bit. You get some idea of that from the folder you are in when you run cmd.exe. cmd.exe is a command line interpreter. It allows you execute commands without a GUI. Since you are familiar with unix you will understand it is a shell. DOS is short for Disk Operating System, it is not used in NT, 2000, XP, and after.

Your confusing a few things, If you are booted into Windows 2000 and open a CD containing any application, doesn't matter what it is, and execute the program, it is not running from the CD. The execution takes place in the OS. Imagine you are in your kitchen and you open a cook book, pick a recipe out and follow the instuctions, you are not cooking in the book, you are cooking in your kitchen. You are simply following instructions contained in the book.

Your last assumption is probably correct on debug, if it was still in debug after a reboot and you reboot again, then most likely debug finished.

You should really learn to look at event viewer, it will teach you quite a bit about what is going on. Windows 2000 is not Windows 98. Totally different and much smarter. You shouldn't need to close applications with CTRL+ALT+DEL like in Windows 98 too often.

[Sylvander]

"I understand your confusion because the many commands in old DOS are still around in Windows and they both have black screens by default"
Which confusion is that?
I plead not guilty your honour. :)
If you read back you'll see I never at any time said chkdsk was a DOS program; the reason being that I made no assumptions about what it is. But since you were saying what it was NOT, I thought I'd ask what you think it IS.

"Your confusing a few things, If you are booted into Windows 2000 and open a CD containing any application, doesn't matter what it is, and execute the program, it is not running from the CD"
Again I plead not guilty to being confused. :)
The EBCD is a bootable "Emergency Boot CD".
It is booted INSTEAD of loading Windows from the HDD.
Some kind of OS [Linux or DOS? Does anyone know?] is loaded from the EBCD and 2 different menus of available programs are displayed.
To get to the 2nd menu you hit "Enter" [to action the default 1][or type 1] at the 1st menu.
MS Scandisk is loaded from the 2nd EBCD menu.
Rather like a Knoppix Linux Live CD, but not such a sophisticated OS.
All of this is done outside of the Windows environment because Windows has not been loaded.

[malcore]

You seem to have a number of troubles doing all of your scanning and backing up. It looks as though you are using Fat32 as a file system on your 2000 system.

I would recommend giving NTFS a shot, better file management, better recovery, better security, less fragmentation, etc. It's much more suited to your style of computing.

You can always use a FAT32 partition to store data you wish to share between Linux and Windows.

[Variable]

Well, you certainly sounded guilty (like you thought cmd.exe was DOS) :)

Ahh I should have read your reply post again, yes if your not booted into Windows and running the chkdisk from a boot CD what I was saying about cooking is not pertinet to your problem. Sorry about that. The confusion was due to my short attention span. Doing a bathroom remodel this weekend and checking the computer when the frustration level gets too high. I wonder if MS makes my stud finder, it needs a scandisk for sure. I had to patch a whole series of holes due to erroneous detection of wall studs that don't exist. I won't even get started on the toilet flapper valve fiasco. Soon I shall replace a overhead light fixture, please keep me in your prayers.

[Whyzman]

DOS is a 16 bit applicationVery much like a 16" framing application. I'd look for those studs to be spaced 16" on center...

Also, the frustration you are experiencing can result in a boot, reboot, situation which are much more difficult to fix than the small exploratory holes that are easily patched... :Dplease keep me in your prayersAbsolutely! ;)

[sburtchin]

The EBCD is a bootable "Emergency Boot CD".
It is booted INSTEAD of loading Windows from the HDD.
Some kind of OS [Linux or DOS? Does anyone know?] is loaded from the EBCD and 2 different menus of available programs are displayed.
To get to the 2nd menu you hit "Enter" [to action the default 1][or type 1] at the 1st menu.
MS Scandisk is loaded from the 2nd EBCD menu.When you boot the EBCD the operating system is SYSLINUX and I'm pretty certain the boot device is the CD at this point. I think it's called a "micro-kernel" because it is not a full operating system like Knoppix. This (and I think another bit of software) is what loads the first menu. When you select most of the items on the first menu, SYSLINUX creates a RAMdrive and loads the contents of a file on the CD into the RAMdrive. Then it loads the BS from the RAMdrive and hands control over to that.

The second menu is displayed from one of these booted RAMdrives (which contains MS-DOS v7.10). The only thing that makes it unique from most of the other choices on the first menu, is that it displays a menu. So the operating system is MS-DOS v7.10 when you run SCANDISK.

I would recommend giving NTFS a shot, better file management, better recovery, better security, less fragmentation, etc.Dito on that! Unless you are using FAT32 for experimentation, you should convert to NTFS. In any case I would recommend at least one instance of Windows 2000 on NTFS (your main os). Multiple instances are easy to create with your imaging software. "Program Files" can be on a separate partition that is shared between all instances - just image the program files partition whenever you image any of the os partitions and you will always have matching sets if you ever need to roll back.

I keep most data on FAT32 for compatibility, but I also have a 2G FAT16 partition because 1) it can share with a wider range of os's, 2) I can use it like a scratchpad with files and folders, and 3) it saves my main data partition from unnecessary fragmentation. If it gets cluttered I can just start deleting stuff because the decision was already made when I put it there that it wasn't important or my only copy. This works well for piecing together EBCD modifications because I don't accidentally waste resources backing up ISO files.

[Sylvander]

I have:

1. C: 5 GB FAT32 = Windows, Program Files, swap-file, hibernation file, configuration files.
Imaged to Fat32 partition on USB HDD and internal FAT32 G: partition.
Also Synchronised to FAT32 partition on USB HDD.

2. D: 1 GB FAT32 = personal data files and data files for prog's on C:
My Documents, emails, address book, Desktop, Firefox profile, IE Favourites & Temporary Internet Files, Acerose Password Vault auto-backup of vault files.
Imaged to Fat32 partition on USB HDD and internal FAT32 G: partition.
Also Synchronised to FAT32 partition on USB HDD.

3. E: 30 GB FAT32 = large data files, mostly music.
Imaged to Fat32 partition on USB HDD and internal FAT32 G: partition.
Also Synchronised to FAT32 partition on USB HDD.

4. F: 30 GB FAT32 = large data files, mostly image files and videos.
Imaged to Fat32 partition on USB HDD and internal FAT32 G: partition.
Also Synchronised to FAT32 partition on USB HDD.

5. G: 12 GB FAT32 = image backups and Windows and Office installation file sets.

6. 10 GB Mandriva Linux partition including swap-file partition.
Imaged to Fat32 partition on USB HDD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. I'd like to switch to NTFS; probably only on the C: partition.
BUT, I'm concerned about the down side of doing this...
a. Would like Mandriva to be able to access all partitions, probably incuding C:
b. Want the EBCD to continue to be able to manipulate things, and it cannot write to NTFS partitions.
c. It's easy to convert FAT32 to NTFS, but I believe it cannot easily be reversed.

"You seem to have a number of troubles doing all of your scanning and backing up"
I don't feel like there are problems; seems like things are under control and almost everything's covered.
Not 100% perfect by any means; it'd be nice if the EBCD would work well with USB devices, but if MS Scandisk won't scan the USB HDD partitions I can always use chkdsk from within Windows.

"You can always use a FAT32 partition to store data you wish to share between Linux and Windows"
That would include partitions D: E: F: G: [FAT32 on internal HDD] & H: [FAT Flash Drive] & N: O: P: [FAT32 on USB HDD].
It can also access the FAT32 C: partition.
I was attempting to install and use "Thunderbird" on both Windows and Mandriva, each using the same set of data files on D: but finding it not so easy to transfer emails and address book for 5 OE identities to different Thunderbird "Profiles" whilst maintaining the email higherarchical folder system.

Variable
What does a stud finder detect?
I used a small, powerful magnet to very precisely detect the location of the galvanised nails inside the plaster-board that hold it to the studs.
I could get that to about 1/8 inch of the true position of the nails.
Held the magnet in 3 fingers about 1/16th inch away from the plaster and slid it back and forth until I felt the attraction of the magnet to the nail.
Then homed in on the precise location, making tiny movements back and forth, then make a small cross with a pencil on the nail head location.

[malcore]

Troubles may have been a strong word...:)

Just knowing that you like to keep things backed up and neat and tidy with easy ability to recover, I think NTFS is perfect for your way of computing.

Mandriva can, of course, read NTFS no problem. The trouble is writing to NTFS. There are tools...getting better...not perfect yet. As there are ways to access/manipulate NTFS files from a boot disk.

When I referred to using a FAT32 partition for sharing between windows and Linux, I really only meant a place where both operating systems can write to, ie download files to.

Changing back to Fat32 from NTFS is not so hard when you have recent images of your partitions as Fat32.

Also, it doesn't matter what the file system is when storing images, ie no worries to store an image of a FAT32 partition on an NTFS drive.

The one real bonus of NTFS for you is if you ever were to lose data (unlikely, I know ;) ), your chances of recovery are better if using NTFS. Well, two bonuses, the better security of NTFS is another.

PS- I think a stud finder is somewhat like sonar, an easier way than using your knuckles...:D

[sburtchin]

"7. I'd like to switch to NTFS; probably only on the C: partition.
BUT, I'm concerned about the down side of doing this..."
I'm not convinced there is any downside, since you don't keep any of your data on C:. Your only need for write access then, seems to be for recovery purposes. You keep frequent image backups, so that is almost a mute point.

"b. Want the EBCD to continue to be able to manipulate things, and it cannot write to NTFS partitions."
This is true (without something extra), but you CAN run the Win2000 version of CHKDSK from EBCD with the NTFSDOS (readonly) added. With some tweaking, it should be possible to boot the Windows 2000 Recovery Console from EBCD, either as a RAMdrive, or on a small HDD partition separate from your Windows 2000 partition. From there you would have NTFS read/write.

My Recovery Console is installed to a small FAT16 partition. It also has DOS v7.10 there too. The Recovery Console itself requires about 5.5MB of disk space. Hmmm.... the RD1 and RD2 RAMdrive image files on EBCD are each 21.5MB and have DOS 7.10 on them. Worst case, not being able to physically put it on the EBCD, you could probably get by with a 15MB FAT12 partition on the HDD with the Recovery Console installed there.

"c. It's easy to convert FAT32 to NTFS, but I believe it cannot easily be reversed."
Correct, but I think it unlikely you would want to. You can roll it back as malcore suggested, or you could create another C: partition and have 2 instances of Windows 2000 - one FAT32 and one NTFS. Each can be used to rescue the other in case one fails. They can share just about everything, including e-mail. Moving the pagefile and program files to separate shared partitions saves space with the image files.

"if MS Scandisk won't scan the USB HDD partitions I can always use chkdsk from within Windows"
I have no problem using the Windows 2000 version of CHKDSK on my USB drive from EBCD.

[Variable]

Sorry to get off your topic Sylvander...

Yep, a stud finder puts out radio signals (I would assume) it locates a solid piece of wood behind dry wall, no plaster here. Mine is possessed. It gives a "sometimes" good reading if held upside down and slid up and down. Right side up and slid left and right it detects studs from another house I think. It used to work flawlessly, time for a new one.

Very much like a 16" framing application. I'd look for those studs to be spaced 16" on center...

ahh if it were only that easy... It seems the folks who built my house in '46 set about placing wall studs willy nilly. There is no consistency whatsoever in their placement. Putting in pink insulation batting was a lot of fun and involved a great deal of duct tape.

My light installation went to hell when I dropped the pretty glazed glass cover and broke it into 20 odd pieces. Luckily for me, the drain pipe leading out of the house clogged up and backed up the washing machine, so I was able to go out in the cold and dig up 50 year old clay pipes for several hours. The smell was incredible; my boys added to the aroma with their partially digested dinner...It was a swell time for all and a great three day weekend. NOT!

[malcore]

Luckily for me, the drain pipe leading out of the house clogged up and backed up the washing machine, so I was able to go out in the cold and dig up 50 year old clay pipes for several hours.

Hehe...

If only I were so lucky.


Ok, here goes, I apologize in advance.....

My wife is a pretty good stud finder....

groan...

Whyzman, help me, the ghost of uncle jabar is haunting me!!!

[Fruss Tray Ted]

My wife is a pretty good 'stud' finder....


And you're living proof? I wonder if she'd want a second opinion! :eek:

A Blonde walks into Home Depot and asks a clerk if she can buy a Stud Finder. Using it like a Tazer, she goes around pointing it at all the men there like a Tazer...
_______________

a stud finder puts out radio signals (I would assume)

Like Sonar or Radar, looking for a change in density by sending then analyzing the return signal. Metal Detectors and the likes are similar. I should try my Fish Finder ;)

[Whyzman]

Whyzman, help me, the ghost of uncle jabar is haunting me!!!I wood, but when I saw this the dust had already settled. :rolleyes:

Density...yes... Interesting, though...most use capacitors, not sonar as one might think...interesting read!

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question271.htm

[Sylvander]

"the drain pipe leading out of the house clogged up and backed up the washing machine"
Now, I wonder what clogged it; the mind boggles. :confused:

I've only seen 2 cases of a blocked driain:

1. At my parents house in the 1960's.
The drain down-pipe [cast Iron] from the toilet was on an outside wall rather than inside the building fabric [bad design], and ice had built up on the inside of the pipe [this was January] and eventually sealed.
When I flushed the toilet, the bowl filled to the top and overflowed onto the bathroom floor. :(

2. A decade later...
Living in an apartment block...
A woman living on the 1st floor [my wife and me were on the 2nd] was using disposable nappies for her baby and flushing them down the toilet.
The drain blocked at about ground level.
The elderly couple living on the ground floor had everything that was flushed away from the floors above coming out of her toilet onto her bathroom floor. :(
Everyone had to cease using drains until it was fixed.

[Variable]

Out in the sticks it was common to have the kitchen sink and the washing machine go out in a drainage field rather than in the septic tank. Supposedly this makes the septic tank last a good bit longer. It is hard to say what the clog orginated as, by the time I found the problem it had gone through some type of evil and vile metamorphasis...

[Sylvander]

I'm inclined to think that with the washing machine's hot soapy wash water and hot bathwater discharging down the drains they would be washed as clean as a whistle. :)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :D